User talk:Baggins5154/archive1

Please stop vandalising Drek'thars page with your propaganda
Also Alterac mountains does equal Alterac valley. If that was the case,the Alliance would have known of the Frostwolves a lot sooner,The Frostwolves probably would not have settled being too tired for a big conflict,and Lord of the clans makes no mention of Dwarves in alterac. Not to mention your version of it makes no sense,why would the Frostwolves attack the stormpike for no reason,and it demonizes the Frostwolf, So please leave your biased propaganda out of Drek'thars page. Thank you Angry ogre

Cites
Yay for citing, keep it up. Once I get access to my books again and probably re-read them, I'll see about adding more of my own. -- Kirkburn  (talk) 16:57, 25 December 2006 (EST)

Yes, citing = good.Baggins 17:04, 25 December 2006 (EST)

Lore stubs and RPG
In future, when you make a section, would you mind actually putting in information? Only I doubt that many users are going to be able to add information for most of the blank stubs you've put in. Also, I'd be in favor of removing epic classes from the lists, as they don't appear in-game. They're what pen-and-paper RPGs (and D&D-based video games, like Neverwiner Nights) use to define a player who has either achieved a very high level in his class, or had stuck to a single class instead of multiclassing. Since most players expect to reach high levels, and multiclassing cannot be done in WoW, the information is useless. And to go back to an old point, could I encourage the preview button again?--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 23:03, 25 December 2006 (EST)

Don't worry I'll be adding in those sources. Those are just placeholders to remind me to do it. :p... Secondly, "epic classes" had lore, so I posted it up. Brann refers to characters as "epic" occasionally, like he refers to rexxar as the "epic beastmaster" I put them in the base class pages rather than creating seperate articles because I felt it wouldn't make much sense to make twice as many articles for what was only a small bit of lore in the first place. Also you'll note samwise even made his own fancy artwork for those "epic classes" so I feel that that makes them pretty valid bit of information.Baggins 00:59, 26 December 2006 (EST)


 * Are you certain that's a priest and not a paladin? hit acknowledged.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 09:45, 26 December 2006 (EST)

Are you referring to the "Pyremaster"? The book said "funerary priest". Maybe you meant the artwork for "Epic Priest"? That's the artwork in the book itself for the epic priest. Samwise has it listed up on his site as "Epic Priest" as well. So ya I'm pretty sure ;).Baggins 11:31, 26 December 2006 (EST)


 * Well, I guess he knew what he was doing. That artwork does look more like a paladin thanm a priest, but perhaps among the epic, it no longer matters.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 11:41, 26 December 2006 (EST)


 * Heh, Heh. But ya I see where you are coming from. He has sections of armor connnected to his robes. His mace looks like a tiny hammer.Baggins 11:50, 26 December 2006 (EST)

Blood elves and fel magic
Noted, but the point I'm making is the misguided idea that all blood elves rely primarily on demonic magic to replenish themselves. As we see in-game, that is simply not true. I changed the reasons why the blood elves in general were rejected from the Alliance. It's not because of the race's willingness to embrace demonic magic because the race as a whole does not want to -- it was for Kael'thas' treasonous actions during the year following the Third War by accepting aid from the Naga and breaking free of Dalaran, and then following Illidan into Outland.

There needs to be more distinction between blood elves in Azeroth and blood elves in Outland.--Zexx 17:22, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * The main distinction is that blood elves in outland are apparently gone mad(although they haven't turned into Wretched), and they follow demons.


 * Otherwise culturally they are about the same. Blood elves still go for mainly red clothes, strange haircuts, etc. They still feed off off any form of magic including fel magic etc. You need me to cite the sources? Hell at the beginning of Burning Crusade they just think of themselves as part of blood elves of outland, and blood elf ambassdor from Outland lives with them. They only recently started getting more sources of divine and arcane magic because they were able to retake Silverwind which is full of arcane creatures, and because the abassador brought them a Naaru. They still have plenty of access to "fel" magic in Quel'Thalas though due to scourge presence.

Baggins 17:30, 27 December 2006 (EST)

Yeah could I get some of those sources? Just want to make sure.--Zexx 17:34, 27 December 2006 (EST)

Well first off is their new access to divine magic.[].

As for mentioning they drain fel magic from demonic sources, that is mentioned in Alliance & Horde Compendium, and World of Warcraft RPG core rule book.

As for access to using ability to get arcane magic, that is covered in a quest early on in the game used to show how to use the Mana Tap ability. You are sent around draining mana from Mana wyrms, a creature of arcane design.

Blood Elves were just starting to try to take back Silvermoon and the Blackened Wood(which it states was also called Ghostlands), according to Lands of Conflict, but at that time they largely limited to making strikes from the island of Quel'Danas.

Is the practice of blood elves draining fel magic confirmed as not flavor lore?

It's not the idea that they siphon mana from arcane sources I'm debating, just that they rely heavily on demonic magic.--Zexx 17:46, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * Mind you at that time of lands of conflict and Manga, Silvermoon was not a place to live it was alot worse of than it is now. Filled with Undead and demons. Blood elves have done alot through magic to repair the damage done by destruction of the Sunwell and scourge since then.


 * There is a short story in Alliance and Horde Sourcebook where one of the Azerothian blood elves kills a felguard. He starts to think how low his race has become. He contemplates on how he has been forced to sate his addiction to magic through lowly demons, as if he was just an animal (Akin to a vampire feeding on lowly rats). He starts to wonder what it would be like if he could catch an Eredar, or a human mage, perhaps even Jaina Proudmoore herself and feed on their arcane magic. This story was given in order to show culture and fate of Blood elves on Azeroth at the time.


 * As I've said before things have changed since then however, they now have access to divine and arcane sources rather than just fel sources.Baggins 17:53, 27 December 2006 (EST)

Well WoW
A WoW stamp, as I threatened. Thank you very very much for this weapon. --Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 20:51, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * Hey, you had me make it, I'm going to utilize it ;).Baggins 20:56, 27 December 2006 (EST)

WC2
I thought we agreed that someone would be able to link to the statistical page from the main page?--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 09:44, 29 December 2006 (EST)

I'm not sure where to put it on the main page. If you know where to put it that would be great.Baggins 10:18, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * The top, like a disambig notice. "for Lothar's statistics from Warcraft II, see <...>"--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 10:25, 29 December 2006 (EST)

Oh you meant individual pages, not the "main page". Oh, I had been putting it on hte bottom in a "See Also: Link". But that can be changed.Baggins 10:27, 29 December 2006 (EST)

Unofficial classifications
Baggins, to stop the edit war, we should chat about the handling of such mob types as Frost giant. No, the term 'Frost giant' doesn't appear anywhere in official sources as far as I know either, but the creatures are obviously different from mountain giant, sea giant, molten giant, etc, at least in appearance. 'Frostmaul' is obviously a tribal name rather than something that would describe all giants of said type. There are plenty of other creature subtypes that have been given an arbritrary name if only to differatiate them from the rest (several Naxxramas mob types come to mind). Blizzard can't officially name every type of creature, and mishing the blanks together is not good enough. --Varghedin 17:42, 29 December 2006 (CET)


 * Well according to the RPG they are a type of "Mountain Giant" so if you must classify them put them in that category. But our job is not to make up terminology. Also I'm pretty sure the Molten Giant Mob is considered a typeo of "Mountain Giant" by the rpg as well.Baggins 11:46, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * If they are officially a type of mountain giant, I will indeed do that, although stating that to begin with could have helped. My job as it were, or one of them, is to clarify creature types and put them in appropriate categories, and sometimes official terminology has holes. Not everyone has access to the RPG sources. --Varghedin 17:59, 29 December 2006 (CET)


 * Well at first I wanted to give you the chance to make a citation, just in case there was something I missed. I probably should have used the Source needed template rather than fanfic.Baggins 12:03, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * Yeah, I kept looking for things in the articles themselves that felt 'fanficcy'. But it was always just about the name itself. I do feel we should make an ample note in the Mountain giant article about color variations or something similar to prevent it from happening again with someone else. --Varghedin 17:59, 29 December 2006 (CET)

Agreed.Baggins 12:15, 29 December 2006 (EST)

Classes Category
I've expanded it to include official classes from the RPG, and Strategy Game a few weeks ago.Baggins 22:04, 28 December 2006 (EST)


 * I'd much prefer you create new categories like Category:RPG classes and Category:RTS classes for these classes that don't appear in World of Warcraft. Two reasons for this: 1) This is WoWWiki, so people may not expect non-WoW classes to be listed under classes and 2) with so many classes mixed up together, it's hard to figure out which ones belong to what kind of games. You can make Category:RPG classes and Category:RTS classes sub-categories of Category:Classes for people to find stuff from Category:Classes. -- Fandyllic (talk) 11:41 AM PST 29 Dec 2006


 * The Wow classes already have their own seperate class categories, and those show up at the top of the page as "sub-categories". They don't show up in the below class categories. Also many of the other classes show up in WoW just only as NPC classes. Also most of the classes show up across more than one type of media. In some cases they get offhand mention in World of Warcraft, its RPG, or a previous Warcraft game, a novel, etc, that gave them more detailed lore. So it would be a lie to just specify them as "RPG" class, or "RTS" class, or a "WOW" class when they may show up in 2 or more sources.Baggins 14:44, 29 December 2006 (EST)

Kil'jaeden
Actually, Kil'jaeden's biology appears to be a retcon; in RotH, Ner'zhul, Gul'dan, and Durotan easily recognized the similarities between him and the draenei. Daemons debunked.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:29, 5 January 2007 (EST)

In Horde's Player's Guide it mentions he has appeared to the Horde in various forms the various times he's appeared before them. So yes they ultimatley knew what his appearance was. Not sure why he would take on different forms though, guess he just likes doing that.Baggins 20:34, 5 January 2007 (EST)


 * RotH establishes that he impersonated Orc ancestors to convince the shamans to convert to warlock magics- Gul'dan and Durotan were the only ones who realized what he truly was. The book even answers why some orcs seem mentally challenged, explains everything about the draenei; it's reconciled at least half a dozen lore issues, and those are just the clearest ones.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:41, 5 January 2007 (EST)

Ahh so its just expanded on what we knew further. Not really a retcon so much as a expansion. Orc ancestors had horns and wings?Baggins 20:43, 5 January 2007 (EST)


 * NO. There's no mention of wings, though he does appear to have horns (described in the same manner as the image you posted today). No, Kil'jaeden appeared as Drek'Thar's teacher and Ner'zhul's mate, to name two. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:46, 5 January 2007 (EST)

HPG, includes a nice fancy picture where he appears before Ner'Zhul in his full eredar glory during one of his appearances. I should scan that one up as well.Baggins 20:48, 5 January 2007 (EST)


 * Definetly. we need a better image for the infobox.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:49, 5 January 2007 (EST)


 * I'm not sure its good enough for the infobox its too impressionstic, and in black and white. It has Ner'zhul I think standing on a peak, kil'jaeden is above him, flames coming out his head, etc.Baggins 20:52, 5 January 2007 (EST)


 * Well I've been keeping track of Kil'Jaeden's appearances as I read the story. As for the early ancestor appearances they are just described as looking like any orc we have seen so far, at least "brown-skinned". I didn't notice any refrence to horns on their heads, although I looked for the refrences. The book then starts discussing how the ancestors are in "communication" with "other beings".


 * This leads to Kil'Jaeden appearing himself after Ner'zhul requests to see one of the "other beings". Kil'jaeden is described as being red skin, it doesn't really describe his entire body in detail. However Ner'zhul only notices one physical attribute of his body that means anythng to him. He comments that Kil'jaeden's legs remind him of draenei's legs. Other than that he doesn't seem to notice any other similarities, not enough for him to say hey look they are the same species. This is vague enough that Kil'jaeden may have still appeared in the so called "demon/daemon" form, but with backward's canted legs like the eredar.


 * Much later in chapter 16 it final describes kil'jaeden's head, it says he has a horned red head, but doesn't really describe the nature of his horns. But even Gul'dan doesn't seem to notice a direct conection between draenei and Kil'jaeden and wonders why he wants the draenei killed.


 * I'm going to still keep track of later discriptions in the story as I read further.Baggins 23:21, 10 January 2007 (EST)

Manual of Monsters Appendix III
I cannot accept the reasoning behind adding creatures mentioned in the MoM Appendix III as being in proper lore. The section actually states that they are creatures taken from other reference material (Dark Menagerie,Tome of Horrors etc) and transplanted into the WoW setting solely as an example for players creating their own monsters. The article on Celiestails is taking this source, which already states it is monsters from other non-Warcraft sources, and giving them far too much depth. The RPG disclaimer isn't enough, because unlike most other information from the RPG guides, this is actually stated to be false. Oahkoah 06:27, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * As been stated before material from Appendix Three has actually made it into lore in later RPG books in the Warcraft RPG book series, sometimes nearly word for word. As well as some of the material actually showing up earlier in the book, in chapter 1-3 in MoM. So obviously Blizzard's opinion is different than your interpretation on the issue.Baggins 11:15, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Well your intepretation of the Celestials is just fanfiction based on something imported from Dungeons and Dragons MM and is pretty much a blight on WoWWiki being a credible source.

To quote a poster on the scrollsoflore.com forum: ''Seriously a lot of the problems the people on this forum have with WoWWiki are solely the fault of Baggins. Both of the pages you mention, Kenzuki, were created by him. Also the often used example of the Leprechaun-article on WoWWiki does only exist because of Baggins' stupid obsession with appendix III of the old Manual of Monsters. He's also responsible for throwing around the words "retcon" or "flavor lore" around way too much and using them as an excuse to put all sorts of stupid information in the wiki.'' How can you credibly defend the article on the Celestials? Oahkoah 12:41, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * I'm sorry, but i need to step in tell you what a bunch of ignorant, and obnoxious pricks the people at scrollsoflore are. Baggins is right in what he's said, and the issues you've brought up are unfounded and a bunch of lies. Yes they are taken from non-warcraft realms, but they have been created and altered to fit into warcraft as a real peice of lore. It is not for you to contradict what the RPG says or for what Blizzard decide to do. Baggins does a great job of adding lore from a neutral PoV, and all you are spouting is a biased opinions of lore which have no place on the wiki. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 12:50, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * As Zeal says, it is not for us to decide what is real lore and what isn't. We record what we are given. (I've now posted a defence here:  14:41, 14 January 2007 (EST)

Take a look at what the RPG books say about wyverns. Do you think we should believe that, in addition to the wyverns that we know exist on Azeroth, there is another, entirely unrelated species, coincidentally also called wyverns, which are identical to wyverns from D&D? And that for some unknown reason nobody has ever set eyes on them?

One thing that makes Warcraft such a great series is because of instead of conforming to standard fantasy archetypes, it breaks with them. Instead of brutish minotaur, we have the gentle tauren. Orcs are not necessarily evil, and goblins are very intelligent. High Elves, traditionally the "good elves" in fantasy realms, have become addicted to the arcane, and instead of Dark Elves, we have the wise and peaceful night elves.

Next thing we know, another appendix will tell us that there is actually another group of Night Elves who are evil, live underground, and worship spiders. Accepting Appendix 3 at face value completely undermines everything that has set the Warcraft Universe apart from other dreary, typical fantasy worlds. --Flamestrider 16:10, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Which is purely subjective reasoning (including predictions of the future), rather than the objective reasoning Baggins gives about it being used in later books. No, we dont take it at face value, hence the disclaimers on the pages. I should mention that the appendix info would of course be superceded automatically by any later info that may be released. 16:18, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * WoW, another species of wyvern based in D&D and translated to Warcraft. I really want to learn about those, though having a brain i know that these are not the wyverns we know, and as the disclaimer states in the book, i know they are there as a supplement to the word, not to conflict with existing things. I also understand that metzen helped create this, and that he is very persistant about wanting the lroe across all of warcraft to be consistant and valid, so there is no way i can not take this as official or non-cannon *rolls eyes* Seriously? you do have a mental defect right? <3 sarcasm -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 16:24, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Zeal, no ad hominem attacks please. Discuss, don't flame. 16:57, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Zeal: Regarding wyverns, you say "i know they are there as a supplement to the word, not to conflict with existing things." D&D Wyverns in the Warcraft Universe do conflict with existing things, namely the wyverns that are already there.


 * Kirkburn: you're right that the latter part of my post was subjective. It was my personal objection to the appendix. However, I do believe that my point about the wyverns stands. It is a contradiction, and I'm inclined to believe what the game rather than the books tell us. Incidentally, the part about Drow wasn't a serious prediction for the future of Warcraft.


 * And thanks for being civil. I happen to be a contributer to the scrollsoflore forums, but I'm somewhat more optimistic about the prospects of Wowwiki than most. I have to say, I think there are problems, but not unsolvable ones. Recently, I brushed up the Nathrezim article, and I'll change errors if I see them. --Flamestrider 19:33, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Glad to hear :) The Nathrezeim article changes were v good - it was too much 'padding' before. We of course put info in order of 'importance'. That doesn't mean we should ignore 'alternative' info - I think the wyvern article is a good example - it shows clearly the different sources and types. Just because a name is reused doesn't mean that one of the two things is 'wrong'. Look at Hakkar for example ;) 19:40, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Despite the warnings i don't apollogize for what i said. Anyways, what Kirkburn said, my point with that sarcasm was that because i know it's a supplement, i know they are to be considered different from existing wyverns, not conflict with them. You always have the option to choose what to beleive, but the wiki does not have the choice of what info to provide, it will provide it all objectively. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 20:07, 14 January 2007 (EST)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: most of the pen-and-paper RPG for Warcraft is gafted directly from Dungeons & Dragons. That's why basilisks have six legs, why there have been class confusions (though I'm not at liberty to comment on the wyvern).-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:57, 14 January 2007 (EST)


 * Oh look, I'm going to drag myself into this argument. Oh, and DnD Basilisks have 8 legs if NWN is correct
 * Honestly, I'm against the various "Grabbed right from DnD stuff" to be considered cannonical at all. Sure it does make a slight attempt to get it to work, but its really just not lore. While a few things from it (Dire creatures are in the next monster manual) are refrence, the majority isn't, and some things are completely against most of the Warcraft universe. There's a single group of Demons, not 3 types, and the closest thing to Celestials are the random angels from various spells and possibly Spirit Healers
 * As for Scrolls of Lore... Meh to them. But Xaran isn't exactly supporting of these being cannon last time I asked him either, and generally if Xaran's against it, I am --Mecheon 01:05, 15 January 2007 (EST)

Oh wow, I didn't mean to cause this big blowup between the two sites. All I feel on the issue is that the Apendix III is very different from the rest of the RPG's. It should probably have a unique disclaimer stating that it is work derived as an extension to a D&D setting. The Celestial article really does take it too far though, and I honestly believe it is approaching fan fiction. I am not saying that all of the Appendix III things need to be removed, and I am in favour of having them their, as it is from a Warcraft source. However, the disclaimer needs to be improved, and people need to take a step back and try not to fill in blanks for material that was already dubious Oahkoah 06:05, 15 January 2007 (EST)


 * One problem with fixing the problem you describe is that relatively few editors have familiarity with, or even access to, the RPG books to determine what they say and how or if it should be incorporated, making it impossible to edit articles such as Celestial, or even Holy Light.
 * Regardless, this discussion seems to have grown too large to keep cluttering up Baggins' user page with it. Perhaps it could be continued at Wowpedia talk:Lore policy.--Aeleas 11:59, 15 January 2007 (EST)

ENOUGH
I have stood by idly for months on this, and I cannot take it anymore: there is always a space between the end of a word and a parenthesis.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 19:16, 16 January 2007 (EST)


 * Hmm, I can't see if I'm adding the space or not on this computer (sorry about the issue), but will try to fix it in the future.Baggins 19:18, 16 January 2007 (EST)


 * Preview button.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 19:19, 16 January 2007 (EST)


 * I mean the text is small I can't see the space between for some reason, even in preview. So I am now trying to make sure to manually add it in, and check by using the arrow keys. I think there might actually be something wrong with this computer's video card, and I can't wait until the day that I retire it :p...Baggins 19:22, 16 January 2007 (EST)

"Newly-crowned"
Yes, I know, I know, my bad. For some reason I forgot that Muradin was the middle sibling, not the eldest. I went back and fixed it right afterward. Bragus 01:40, 19 January 2007 (EST)

Thanks
Thanks for the comment, it at least perked my curiosity to learn the mechanics of the site. I know the lore but navigating this place is scary :-p 00:44, 19 January 2007

questions
'''Hey Baggins, I have some questions I hope you can answer them. One, do you think that High Elves will become a WoW race. Two, some websites say High Elves rode horses, while some say they rode Hawkstriders. Three, why does the Chaos Orc Slavemaster ride a horse and where is he in Warcrft III or Frozen Throne the game or History. I hope you can answer them. Mr.X8'''


 * high elves can ride just about anything, lore wise. There were apparently high elven knights that rode horses at one time. As for hawkstriders and high/blood elves connection that is literally new lore. Although I think there is a connection to "dragonhawks" from TFT, but I don't know for sure.

Sorry I don't know why chaos orc is riding a horse. I think he was just a random creep mob to kill for exp, but don't recall for sure.Baggins 17:02, 21 January 2007 (EST)


 * The High Elves riding Dragonhawks as mounts is actually from tFT lore about them riding young ones as before they learnt to fly. It would make sense for Hawkstriders (aka the cockatrices) to be young dragonhawks, yet WoW designers oodly changed the look of dragonhawks completely (for the worse i might add) and now hawkstriders look more like tFT dragonhawks, than WoW dragonhawks.. Afaik, Hawkstriders are not young dragonhawks or even related.. much to my annoyance and outrage to the stupidity and missed lore link. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 18:14, 22 January 2007 (EST)

Hey Baggins, got another question, I saw a picture with High Elves & Blood Elves riding lions, but the lions had a wolf-like tail. Do you know what they are called or anything at all about them? Another thing, almost every non-playable race has a mount. Do you know what a Pandaren's mount probally is? And lastly, I wnated to write just a little Fan Fiction Story, but I don't know how or where to write it at, can you please help me!-Mr.X8


 * First off I haven't seen such a picture, is it fan art or official art? Link please? If its fan art, well that's all it is a fan idea, and I wouldn't have any idea what the fan's intent was. If its official, well maybe it was concept art? If so it may be an idea that was dropped later on?


 * What do you mean all non playable races have a mount? I'm pretty sure the majority of npc races do not have mounts. Its no exception for pandarens. No mount has been mentioned for pandarens anywhere, closest thing to the subject is mention that they use their own feet to wander around the world.


 * As for fan fiction, I don't write fan fiction myself, so I'm not the one to ask on how to do it. However if you want to write it in wowwiki make sure its a page connected to your user page, and not in a main article. That way its protected and no one else can modify your story.Baggins 14:23, 27 January 2007 (EST)

Thanks, You're right it probably was fan art, but I saw A website Like it,/ gallery / view / 1194.jpg  www.wowguru.com / gallery / view / 1194.jpg As for fan fiction, I have no main article could you tell me how to make one please! Thanks, Mr.X8


 * You want to know how to write fan fiction? ... Read a novel? If you're wondering about how to add it to the wiki, just make a subpage of your user page then type whatever you want into there, within reason! :) Also see WP:FANFIC and Wowpedia:Fan fiction guidelines. 19:26, 27 January 2007 (EST)

I don't have a web page so can I put my story here? Please!

Moved story (Kirkburn)


 * I've moved it to "User:Mr.X8/Nairb", that is where to write write about your character :) Plus I don't care who wins the Superbowl, I'm british ... 06:21, 28 January 2007 (EST)


 * Don't judge- I can picture you at the last World Cup :-P -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 10:26, 28 January 2007 (EST)

Thanks Alot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one can fathom how embarrassing this was to read nearly four years later.  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  01:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Outland elementals
Marsh Dredgers and Marsh Lurkers in Zangarmarsh are elementals - do you think they would fit under Bog Beasts? 17:52, 30 January 2007 (EST)

Well they definitely look like the bog beast model.Baggins 23:33, 30 January 2007 (EST)

MoM Talk
→ Info from the source! User talk:Kali Magdalene 08:03, 2 February 2007 (EST)

Can hunters tame darkhounds,bloodhounds,mastiffs, and all the other darkhound-like dogs?

Gods
1) What is the exact text for the Elemental Spirits speaking Kalimag? We don't even know if they have mouths to speak it with, and it's no barrier to communication. 2) The quest you cite is not reliable, as "your god" means the individual's deity- to night elves, it means Elune, and to the Tauren it means the Earthmother. It's representative of Henotheism. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:11, 13 February 2007 (EST)


 * 1.In a quest in Nagrand, you are sent to help out some elemental spirits for the shamans/druids at the elemental throne. During one of these quests you are to release one of the minions of one of the spirits, called a "living fire", which you release to burn down some Lost Ones huts. When you release them it says, in "Kalimag", Reth Reth Reth". Whatever the hell that means.


 * 2.This is true, henothism or devotion to a single god, while acknowleding existence of other gods, right? its interesting enough some people argue Christianity is a form of "henotheism", rather than true monotheism.Baggins 23:25, 13 February 2007 (EST)


 * Christianity is only henotheistic in certain forms, though Judaism was henotheism originally. The religions of the Tauren and Night elves are likely henotheisms. Back to the article, that doesn't indicate the Spirits prefer that language, but I can let that slide- however you new God addition doesn't work. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 23:32, 13 February 2007 (EST)

What makes you certain that the Spirits are elementals? -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:26, 18 March 2007 (EDT)


 * The representations of elemental spirits or spirits minions in Nagrand, and quest lines related to them they are listed as elementals and every minion under them during those quest lines are elementals. They also speak Kalimag which is the elemental language. Those things certainly seem at odds with corrupted elementals existing in Nagrand as well, and are said to be related shamanistic heritage of orcs. It could be gameplay mechanics, but if more info is given in the future we can always update what we know, if more info is released and if things are claried further.Baggins 00:55, 18 March 2007 (EDT)


 * The only reason I doubt it is because that's not the way they're represented in lore; you're right given that evidence, though. I think I liked they way you put it originally, "primal elementals." Nice new pic of Lor'themar, btw.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 09:43, 18 March 2007 (EDT)
 * Ya, I removed primal because of confusion it might have with primal elemental definition. I originally used primal probably because of "primal fire, primal earth, etc", although I was actually trying to remember, the term, "fury" used on the spirit leaders in Throne of Elements. Maybe call them fury elementals? I'm glad you like the new scan of lor'themar.Baggins 12:36, 18 March 2007 (EDT)


 * Well, you see why I like "primal" better- while they are elementals on some level, they're much more; beings on par with actual gods, and exceeding some of them in power. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 13:05, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Preview button
Please, please, please! -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:30, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

Sorry man, was noticing 2-3 sections were altered. Btw, the timeframe of "present" events in Sunwell Trilogy ares set after TFT, after she regained her form. The "flashbacks" were to during Warcraft III's events. The last shot we have in the past events is the ghost floating above sylvanas body. But we already knew she regained her physical form in TFT after she formed the Forsaken.Baggins


 * My personal opinion is that it's just been retconned, but there is evidence to suggest it wasn't; at the very least, she relacimed her body, as Lor'Themar recognized her. Ghostlands made her look far too much like a night elf for my taste. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:36, 18 March 2007 (EDT)


 * Its also been maintained she reclaimed her own body in the RPG, that's why almost everyone who encounters her recognizes her. Ya, the model is too night-elfish imo :P... I would never chose to put her manga portrait in wowbox, when we have plenty of other choices... speaking of which I still need to scan and upload metzen's version... From what I hear manga was finished a while ago, artwise and everything they just wanted to release each part a year apart, that's why we knew about events in BC write up before they released the manga. Kind of lame if you ask me, I hated being spoiled like that...Baggins 20:41, 18 March 2007 (EDT)


 * I know what you mean; took me all of ten minutes to read it. The One thing I like about the kaldoreish appearance is that it's consistent with RoC; Sylvanas and Shandris use the same model, colored differently. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:43, 18 March 2007 (EDT)
 * Ahh I never noticed that, will have to check that again. Also you might notice banshees have more of a night elven form than high elven form as well. Infact it resulted into two histories for banshees, the one given in the game, and the one given on the website. That is banshees were night elves and highborne killed during the sundering and haunting northrend and other places. The main game had the creation of banshees as something ARthas did. The RPG actually did an admiral job combingin the the two histories, by saying first banshees were created during the sundering, and Lich King took them into his control. Later from what they learned about those banshees they were able to create new ones from half-elves and high-elves after he attacked Quel'thalas.Baggins 20:49, 18 March 2007 (EDT)


 * I'm going to leave you a note every time I see ten edits where there should be two. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 23:26, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

Muradin Bronzebeard
What accounts? From what I remember, it was indeed the ice shattering that slew him, not Arthas. Just wondering whose PoV that was from... :o--Sky (t · c · w) 03:37, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

S&L, and I'd assume its likely Alliance POV. I also seem to recall some ingame notes in WoW that made the same claim as well. Some around the time of Scourge invasion, IIRC.Baggins 03:42, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
 * Ah, ok.--Sky (t · c · w) 18:18, 19 March 2007 (EDT)


 * Arthas technically did kill him by taking Frostmourne; there's no way that ice hit him by accident.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:41, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
 * Technically. ;P And that is actually stated in the article.--Sky (t · c · w) 17:59, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

misc
A jihad on WoW shots is not what I had mind. I think that Falstad's picure doesn't matter that much, given the placement of both images, and the Malfurion and Alleria ones are fine, but the Sylvanas one is a bit of an eyesore, to my eyes. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 10:35, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Umm... how can you tell that are Arator's eyes not fel glow green?-_ Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:43, 19 March 2007 (EDT)


 * Half-elf's are not blood elves, infact according to lore half-elves do not even live in Quel'thalas (albeit a small few have journeyed to ghostlands in recent time in order to explore it). They haven't actually lived in Quel'thalas because they are shunned by majority of blood and high elves that lived there over the years, infact hated more like it. As a paladin I highly doubt Arator's been feeding on or using fel energy sources as well, its cross purposes to being an alliance paladin. Plus if by some slim chance he has been feeding on fel magic or using fel magic, we have no idea how human/elf biology would react such a thing.


 * Its an interesting enough that half-elves do not suffer from the addiction to magic like their parents (at least its never specifically been mentioned to be a problem with them, unlike is stated with both high elves, and blood elves). Lastly I found absolutely nothing in his comments ingame to imply he's ever even been near Quel'thalas, to assume "he's likely been there, or that it is most likely scenario", that's just pulling ideas out of thin air (unless I've missed something that's said he's been there?). Also, consider we have had high elves from quel'thalas that escaped the battles with the scourge that chose not to feed on fel energy sources or use fel magic, and they have not "mutated" with "glowing green eyes", although they no longer have access to their old kingdom due to blood elves in the place.


 * Lastly, lest you are forgetting the game is just using blood elf model that doesn't necessarily mean he looks anything like he does in game, but should actually look closer to a half-elf, which could mean he doesn't necessarily even have to have green eyes.Baggins 23:07, 19 March 2007 (EDT)


 * Your point about half-elves not being accepted is conceded (although I point out that half-elves are only referenced in the RPG, which most readers are nor familiar with). Given the fact that Blood Knights have green eyes, his being a paladin has nothing to do with it. I can't speak to him, as I don't play WoW anymore, but the fact that he never mentions Quel'Thalas doesn't mean anything.
 * The theory can be considered incorrect by purely by virtue of high/blood elves not accepting half-elves. At the time it was written is was an attempt to stop a stream of 4th-grade reading level edits whining about his model.
 * My comment above meant that you can't tell if the eyes are fel glow green or normal green from a screenshot.
 * Addendum: his model is referenced in the above note. I'm getting tired of this: he's given a blood elf model for simplicity, no fantasy game I've ever played has a separate half-elf model. Admittedly, he should have a high elf model.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 23:25, 19 March 2007 (EDT)


 * "(although I point out that half-elves are only referenced in the RPG, which most readers are nor familiar with)."
 * Uh that shouldn't even be an issue, considering all that information is posted in half-elf article for anyone else to read if they so choose to... Cross refrencing is handy. Also let me remind, half-elves have been refrenced in novels and manga as well, so its not "only rpg".


 * Also, Arator's explanation about himself is he became a paladin (not blood knight) to honor memory of his father. Actually I'm not sure about it now and probably should check it out again, but I got impression he has grown up in outland since events of "Beyond the Dark Portal, not sure anything states he has ever lived on Azeroth.


 * As for your addendum yes we agree, I've never seen a fantasy game create a specific half-elf model and instead either use human or elven models, and just mention to you that they are half-elves. Imo as, for the eyes, in reality high elves should have eyes in various colors including blue and green. Its always been stated that half-elves have blue and green eyes, and high elves run gambit of eyes ranging from blue, green, red and violet. What should let us know something is high elf, is simply lack of ruddy skin, and alliance voice over, eye color should not even be an issue.Baggins 23:35, 19 March 2007 (EDT) Baggins 23:32, 19 March 2007 (EDT)


 * 1) True; it appears, then that there is, in fact, no problem. If you wish, we can remove the note (about eyes, not the model), and divide the whiners between us. At the very least, we need to agree on the wording; we seem to be at cross purposes.
 * 2) My point about the RPG was that that was the only place the information was referenced, not the only place they're found
 * 3) Never mind the games, I can barely tell the difference between Kalec and Jorad.
 * 4) As an NWN addict, I usually play a half-elf, who have elven class and racial benefits, but human models.
 * 5) PREVIEW BUTTON!!!!!!
 * 6) If you have something to add to your old comment, please put it in italics at the end with a reference that it's an addition!-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 23:43, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

To be honest only truly elven-like thing about Kalec is his girly hair, and his smooth beardless chin. I honestly couldn't tell he was intended to be a half-elf :p... I even missed the offhand remark to his elven appearance back in the first book :p... Maybe if we saw his ears it would have been easier, but we never do :p... Still the artwork is a bit closer in hindsight to how half-elves are described compared to blood-elf model arator uses in game :p...Baggins 23:56, 19 March 2007 (EDT)


 * The recap in Ghostlands does say half-elf. And I don't want to hear about Arator's model anymore.-_ Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 23:59, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Yep, the recap in Ghostlands mentions "Half-elf", plus the refrences in the middle of the story. However, the recap in second book, it just called him "humanoid" (which I thought was odd at the time but didn't put much thought into it). His appearance isn't even mentioned in first book except for like one offhand remark while they are in Tarren Mill, where he implies he's in some type of "elven" disguise, but can't change out of it because of his collar. Its a quick comment easy to miss, :p.Baggins 00:04, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Okay, thanks. Can I link this to official pages or is it essentially off-limits from the rest of the wiki?Mastia 23:51, 24 March 2007 (GMT)


 * Firstly "aka" is not in caps. Second, what confirmation have you had that Magtheridon was indeed dragged from the Black Temple to Hellfire citadel? -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 19:25, 26 March 2007 (EDT)


 * Check the Blizzard World of Warcraft website links on Black Citadel and Temple . Not my words :p...Baggins 21:33, 26 March 2007 (EDT)


 * Excellent. I say we delete the debate pages and TFT page and leave a note saying that the name has been Retconned. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:00, 27 March 2007 (EDT)


 * I disagree with deletion of those pages. They are chronicling a fair bit of history surrounding publication history and story differences in various media. For this wikipedia to be completely unbiased we must chronicle the differences to the masses. TFT page chronicles the story as told in Warcraft 3, for anyone interested in knowing what happened during the game, and is an important part of the Warcraft 3 portion of Wowwiki. That is we shouldn't ignore differences, or hide differences, an accurate encyclopedia will cover all differences. TFT page is also a stub, that should be expanded on into mission objectives that occur in TFT(something we don't need mentioned in the WoW version page).


 * The main discussion page chronicles the differences between WoW and tft retcons, and is much to large of a discussion to leave in one or both of the other two pages. It chronicles a very large publishing history with important quotes on the subject.


 * Since the Black Temple page is bound to grow and cover more info about WoW instance and encounters once the Black Temple is released, it will be much too long to carry all the details from Warcraft 3, retcon information and the like. By seperating them out, we limit the main WoW page from growing too large.Baggins 20:42, 27 March 2007 (EDT)


 * Point taken. I think they still need to be edited, however- it would mostly be little things, like removal of redundant information and making it more clear that the document the history of fan viewpoints. However, I suggest expanding the TFT page to include the history of the structure as a whole, leaving the main page for the instance (in much the same way lore and tactics are divided). -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 21:36, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

Racebox and PNG thumbnails
As we talked about on IRC, I added a Resizing parameter to Racebox. If you don't want your image to be resized to 200px, just add  (mind the capitalization) under the image. Example: Kobold, Fire elemental. Mind you, you will need the image to be small enough else the racebox will look weird. Hope this helps! -- 06:47, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

Talk:Azzinoth
Pit Lord or Doomguard?-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:48, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

Talk:Elven (language)
Comments required! 07:19, 29 March 2007 (EDT)

Request for review template
thought it might be a good idea to protect/semiprotect http://www.wowwiki.com/Template:Peerreview as the reply process is counter intuitive and people often put there review comments for actual reviews in the template itself (making it apear on every reveiw). this will prevent this and get them to put the comments were they belong.--Reskar 14:22, 7 April 2007 (EDT)

Talk:Dragonmaw Clan
Have a view at the last comment. I haven't actually read the article, so I don't know where the conflict lies with what's on the talk (and in RotH), and wherein the issue is. I would have left this on Rage's talk, but I know that you've actually read RotH, while I can't be sure he has (I would assume...). In any case, this will also affect the Dragon article, I think.--Sky (t · c · w) 21:37, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

Green Havens
I was unaware that the Cenarion Circle (which I should have remembered was made of Druids) could grow forests instantly. I had just gotten through a fairly silly revert war on regular Wikipedia and was not in a "maybe he's right after all" kind of mood. I shall write this one off as a "Whoops" and try to do more research before I change something like that in the future. Bragus 18:03, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Old God
I'm curious about the pic of the Old God on the catagory page... Where did you get it and exactly what is it of? I want to know please! :) -- 20:51, 29 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Glad you asked, I'm almost as clueless as you. Apparently its a creature the Arrakoa are summoning in Shadowmoon Valley. It uses the same model as cthun. I haven't done whatever related quest line leads to it yet, though. But what I know of it apparently it speaks of it being a dark being. I've heard that if you get far enough into the quest you can finally click on it and its listed as an Old God, but I haven't confirmed that yet. But since I couldn't actually click on it, I had to describe it somehow. Hopefully someone with more knowledge of the quest line can create an article discussing its history and relevance.Baggins 23:35, 29 April 2007 (EDT)
 * Which quest line? It might have comments regarding the thing on wowhead or tb or alla... --Sky (t · c · w) 03:24, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Uh I'm pretty sure its the one that starts out with you having to get some pages from some manuscript (or scrolls) or something from Arrakoa in the valley. Don't know an exact name.Baggins 03:31, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Edward the Odd
Do we know who this person is? We now have two items named for the man (his Hand, and his Will), and yet, I have not seen his name anywhere else. Mind digging through your RPG texts? --Sky (t · c · w) 03:26, 30 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Sorry he doesn't ring a bell... Although I'm wondering if it sa real world refrence to something...Baggins 03:31, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Sorry
Sorry for the Tusklord thing...-- 20:27, 5 May 2007 (EDT)

No, big deal, :). I'm guessing someone must have typoed somewhere, no idea who. But I could see where it would cause confusion.Baggins 20:28, 5 May 2007 (EDT)

Archmage
Compromise; use Archmagi in headings and Archmages in text or something else, but for Elune's sake, leave off with the slashes!-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 09:04, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

Preview Button!
Use it! -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:13, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
 * Use it! -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 21:43, 15 May 2007 (EDT)
 * Use it? ;P --Sky (t · c · w) 21:54, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

Are you an administrator?
Dear Baggins, its me Mr.X8. Now I know you probably dont like me for because I foget to sign my name after what I write and about the Metzen thing, but if you are an administrator, could you help me? What I want to do is put pictures on my fan fiction, now that would involve adding pictures of scenery from WoW and pictures Ive created. I am NOT good at computers and WoWWiki, so I was wondering if you could fogive me and help. Sorry to cause any inconvenience, but like I already said, Im horrible with computers.- Sincerely, Mr.X8

P.S.-thanx for the info you gave given me before :) And once again Im sorry about the whole Metzen thing. -Mr.X8

TYVM
I was wondering who to ask about that little issue myself thanks alot u guys ruleScorpx2 01:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)scorpx2

Limited knowledge of source material?
This can be kept to one discusion page; Talk:Tyrande_Whisperwind/Shadows%26LightBaggins 17:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

S&L
I recommend replacing the close-up of Tyrande with the full image. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * go ahead...Baggins

talk:medivh
Have a look? Ragestorm added a bit, but left the convo, it seems... >.> I haven't been able to reach you on irc, else I'd be talking with you there. --Sky (t · c · w) 18:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Articles added
All of the articles I added have a source. Those characters don't change names--Gonzalo84 01:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually three of hte character pages you created, changed names on me, when I reset the maps you listed them on. It never once had the characters you mentioned.Baggins 01:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

"Archlich"
Citation, please? (for reference purposes) -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:56, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

It's there already, Lands of Conflict, page 91. I removed it from class, cause I don't think its a class, just a title.Baggins 03:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I think my prescription needs changing. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 11:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Why are you deleting my edits
There are clearly factual. You give no reason for their deletion. Zarnks 08:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

No, again you are using your speculation and bias (speculation is not "factual"), where as I only quote from official sources. You can continue this discussion in the talk page, where I have left explanations and notes.Baggins 08:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

What its unclear what the pandaren would in a situation like that. Your speculating too on how the pandaren would react to the tauren. Say something that I wrote that is biased and unfactual on the page. Zarnks 08:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually I'm only stating what the book says about "friend ship" oaths. That htey would not break them, and they keep it to their very end. The citations are given.Baggins 08:36, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Thousand Needles Quests
I was just curious as to why the thousand needles quest table was moved to a different page, since it seems all other zones have quests on the same page. -- < Jiyambi >    talk  || contrib  19:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

We are working on it for all zone pages, but its to reduce length of the article so it isn't so bloated. You might notice its still part of the same page, just on a sub-page. If you would like to help with this process it would be appreciated.Baggins 19:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Not a problem, I was doing work on quest lists anyways. Thanks for the helpful explanation. I actually had a question about this anyways: I know some of the zones have something more similar to a quest guide rather than just a list, do we want both or only one, on separate pages or the same? Example of a "guide" is the Durotar page, with the list on the page Durotar/Quests. I think maybe we should change it to "Durotar/Quest List" and make a "Durotar/Questing Guide" for the info on the Durotar page (what order to do the quests in). Any thoughts? -- < Jiyambi >    talk  || contrib  20:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't mind which direction you take it as long as the main page isn't cluttered with quest lists and quest templates, :). You can have the quest section link to quest list and questing guide. Doesn't sound bad.Baggins 20:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Races' main language
MAIN language, not "all languages spoken." I'll discuss the other common issue when I'm in an argumentative mood. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:32, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm only listing main languages according to the RPG, and common is often a primary language for most races. I haven't bothered to toss up the "secondary" languages, from the rpg. Darnassian was already up on naga, but its not a "main" language, the book is specific in that its a secondary.Baggins 22:36, 23 June 2007 (UTC)Baggins 22:33, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Baggins, sir. The infobox need to have a secondary/bonus language section.-- 22:39, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Ya a secondary/bonus language section would be a nice place to add, lore secondary languages as claimed in the RPG.Baggins


 * "Secondary Languages" field it is. This means fiddling with all of the raceboxes once I change the template, but it shouldn't be too difficult. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 22:50, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll help. Secondary languages will be handy especially for Troggs. Any language they know is secondary ;).Baggins 22:51, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Try looking at Naga now. I moved the Homeworld above the two language fields, leaving height as the last stat. And remember, this is still an infobox, so no explanations exceeding 4 words.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 22:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * No explanations exceeding four words? That breaks a lot of things.-- 22:59, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Its difficult for some, but in other cases we can move "languages" as a subheading in culture section. Anyone interested in why they have certain languages or do not ahve certain languages can look there. See Trogg for example. Baggins 23:00, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In the cases for lengthier explanations, that's probably a good idea anyway (Gutterspeak, anyone?). Think of it like the Pirata Codex: more a guideline than an actual rule. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 23:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Aye captain! But, what about the Abomination and Mountain giant infoboxes I made today? thae have more words than that.-- 23:05, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I've fixed naga, as I said before, primary languages was Common and Nazja according ot the rpg. It lists Darnassian, Low Common, and Nerglish as secondary languages.Baggins 23:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Fine, you win. This time. I guess put common in the secondary (Common (WoW)) as well for Alliance?--23:06, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * For factions? Common is probably one of the the common language (bad pun alert), :p...Baggins 23:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I was referring to the fact that all Alliance speak Common and all Horde speak Orcish. You know as well as I do that the pun was definetly intended. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 23:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Ya I'd say in case of factions there are some languages that are more "common", and "primary" than others. Orcish would definitely likely be the primary language of the Horde, although not all member races speak the language as primary languages. Common would be primary language of the alliance faction.Baggins 23:15, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That's why I suggested putting them as secondary, in the case of the playable races. Really, "Main" is the one they speak most, and "Secondary" is whatever else. Personally, I think that Orcish and Common should be listed as secondaries (apart from orcs, and humans, obviously). Addendum: am I correct in assuming that what you've listed elsewhere is fully citable?-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 02:31, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Ya, I'm pulling the primary and secondary languages from the books only. Actually the citations are in the languages sections I've been adding, or will be added to them.Baggins 02:34, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I can also add the citation numbers to racebox if you like?Baggins 02:41, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I just wanted you to clearly say so in case anyone from Legal pays us a visit. Use your discretion for the citations. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 11:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Bookkeeping change
You're now the Language Tsar instead of the Assistant Policy Writer. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, LOL.Baggins

Tinker's Union
Is there anything you tell me about the past, and present, status of 'Tinkers' Union'? Normal 23:10, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't think there has been any major article about them.Baggins 23:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

It is a union of tinkers, likely based out of Undermine.-- 23:14, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Dustwallow update
Though you might be interested - Dustwallow Marsh, third point. 18:08, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Fanart

 * Baggins, what's our position on fanart? --
 * I usually leave it out, unless its the only option. In those cases I make sure its listed as being fanart, so there is no confusion.Baggins 20:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * And it doesn't go in the infobox if at all avoidable. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 14:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by the "only option", Baggins? --

Something like Kryll. There is no official picture, someone made one. Its a nice picture. It doesn't belong in infobox but I see no issue with it being in the article, as long as its marked as fanart. Now an article that is swamped with official pictures, doesn't necessarily need fanart pictures because there are plenty of examples already (talkpage would be a good place for the fanart though, imo).Baggins 21:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You have a point. I asked the question because I wanted to know where I stood if I removed the fanart on some of the race and class pages (which seem to have plenty of possible official pictures). I'm somewhat edgy on the Mograine fanart too. I reasoned that unlike with Kryll, on popular subjects such as blood elves there is waaay too much fanart to fit on one page - if you know what I'm saying. People would just be adding their favourites all the time - or their own work... which is possibly worse.
 * Sorry if I sound like I'm preaching. Maybe I'm being a bit too stuffy and over-cautious. --

Seems fair to me.Baggins 22:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * One option is to create a small if there are several pieces of excellent artwork, and all deserve entry on the article. 23:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)


 * As an aside, d'you mind archiving this page? -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 00:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)