Talk:Centaur/archive1

Untitled
If anyone is wondering this species of Centaur is treated as an entirely seperate article in the Manual of Monsters in the Appendix and are not the same thing as the Kalimdar Centaurs, seeing as this version of centaurs is immune to undeath, lives in Eastern Kingdoms, and are forest dwellers. Though they still share some similaritiesBaggins 01:35, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

This is article is somewhat confusing. I understand that they do not appear in World of Warcraft and only in the Warcraft RPG, but it has other inconcistencies as well. For example, the relationship with the Scourge. If these centaurs are indeed immune to undeath, it would make sense for the Scourge to consider them as enemies. All members of the Scourge are either undead or aspiring to be undead, like the Cult of the Damned. Why would they ally with beings that they cannot eventually "recruit" into their ranks? And if Cenarius indeed fathered these centaurs and they have been present in the Eastern Kingdoms since the Sundering, why didn't Thrall recognize them in Warcraft 3? --Shalkis 02:50, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

Further explanation
Appendix races are races that are especially rare in the world of Azeroth, they remain in remote places and are rarely seen except on rare occasions. As the Manual of Monster's article implies these centaur remain deep in the forests only to come out to terrorize humans every now and then throughout the centuries. So apparently they have never encountered Horde. So Thrall has never seen them. Since the attacks are rare, then Thrall probably has never heard of them either. So he has nothing to remember.

The implication that they may have thought of allying with the scourge at all was more of an enemy of enemy is a friend kind of thing, they apparently don't like humans much. However ultimately they decided not join, or try to join, so that bit about their history doesn't matter to much in the long run.

Additionally not all Cult of the Damned members want to become "undead" as some join seeing it as a way of increasing their dark necromantic powers, and means to taking over the world. These members usually either end up becoming undead at some point not always by their free will, or killed when they cease to be useful. As mentioned in Lands of Conflict.

Also as I remember there are a few more articles on some unique races either "allied" with scourge or utulized by the scourge to sow fear that are mentioned in manual of monsters as well, which are not specifically undead.

Additional information on Kalimdor Centaurs in Lands of Mystery is very specific in that Zaetar only fathered five tribes and those five tribes live only in Kalimdor scattered only in Barrens, Thousand Needles, and Desolace. This other race could not have come from him. Which leaves only the Cenarius origin explanation for how they originated.

I hope this helpsBaggins 05:44, 11 April 2006 (EDT)


 * I think one should be extra careful before including races that are mentioned in the Manual of Monsters appendix into the Wiki. You have to understand what that appendix really is for: It is meant to help Dungeons&Dragons dungeonmasters who own one of the other monster rulebooks for the d20 system to use these books (that weren't really written with Warcraft in mind) in their Warcraft RPG campaigns. To that end the appendix gives suggestions how you could adapt these creatures from another setting so that they fit into the Warcraft world. But that doesn't mean that those creatures all really exist in the Warcraft world according to official lore. It's just optional stuff for the RPG so players can make the most of their D&D and d20 books.
 * So, the "Eastern Kingdoms Centaurs" you describe here are in no way part of the official lore. The text about them in the Manual of Monsters is merely a suggestion how you could adapt regular D&D centaurs to the Warcraft setting. If you really want to include this kind of centaurs in this wiki then you would also have to include Ankhegs, Umber Hulks, Asaathi, Coal Goblins, Spider-Eye Goblins, Face Stealers or any of the other D&D creatures that are mentioned in the appendix. And I hope we can agree that this isn't necessarily what this wiki is for. Only official lore races should be entered here and not all of the stuff from the Manual of Monsters appendix. And, yes, some of the races mentioned in the appendix are official and just weren't put into the main section of the book because they don't differ enough from the D&D version so that an extra entry wasn't necessary in the book (e.g. Elementals), but most of them aren't. --Foogray 15:11, 13 April 2006 (EDT)


 * Okay, I just saw that you have already started adding creatures like Hags, Demodands, leprechauns or Ratmen from the MoM appendix to the wiki. I really don't think this is a good idea. --Foogray 15:31, 13 April 2006 (EDT)


 * I've started a page at WoWWiki talk:Policy/Writing/Lore policy discussion, which will hopefully lead to a formal policy on this subject.--Aeleas 15:42, 13 April 2006 (EDT)

I personally think the backstories in RPG for rarely encountered species is rather interesting. But I think anything from the RPG or novels sources should always be specified, so as to avoid confusion between World of Warcraft the game, and all other spinoff material.

There are Oliphants in Shadows of Ice for example, but they do not show up in WOW at all. So if I was to make an article discribing them I would definitely have to point out where they come from, and that they do not show up in the MMO itself.

It isn't like they just added creatures from other sources willy nilly in the appendix they actually took the time to create detailed background stories in those sections getting rid of D&D descriptions of them, several of which are incredibly interesting.

Also the throughout appendix section it repeatedly points out and I paraphrase;

"Blah Blah stuff in the main sections aren't the only races in Azeroth, Blah Blah, here are some more Blah Blah that can be found in the world, blah blah.", "Kaldorians have other allies, here are some of them, blah blah", "There are more than just Orcs and Goblins as goblinoid races, here are some more that exist on Azeroth, Blah Blah"..., Etc, etc.

They never once says, anything to the affect, of "no this race doesn't exist, it is not lore, but you can use it if you like".

Infact, the introduction also points out that monster descriptions found in appendix 3 take precedence as lore over any monsters with similar names found in other rpgs that they were derived from(as they contain special lore, or special warcraft universe traits), requiring new special descriptions. Again that seems to support the existance of those creatures, rather than just being adaptations from other books. The section essentially gives you warcraft lore that takes precedence over other material, but makes you go to other books for RPG stats.

They really took the time to adapt these races into Warcraft Lore, and point out their existance, albeit you'll likely never see them in the World of Warcraft MMO ever. Which is fine, considering many of the creatures are said be rarely seen, or live in very remote locations, or other planes of existance altogether. Baggins 15:45, 13 April 2006 (EDT)


 * Well this is the Wowpedia, so World of Warcraft takes precedence here. I think that the RPG (which I point out in the Category:Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game text is ironically called "World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game") is as much a source of canon lore as the fiction books and sources blessed by Blizzard. However, that doesn't prevent inconsistencies arising between the various sources. All we can do is recount the lore, discuss the inconsistencies, and make judgements about what we want to favor or highlight here. This wiki is focused on World of Warcraft, the computer game, so we should let people know about Warcraft lore which they won't likely experience even indirectly in WoW because it isn't mentioned, hasn't appeared yet, appears only in another Warcraft game or other source, or conflicts with what they might encounter in WoW. --Fandyllic 10:46 AM PDT 14 Apr 2006

Something to think about
Anyone ever notice the prolific nature of centaur skin rugs all throughout black rock spire? Now where did they get their supply of skins?Baggins 23:36, 6 June 2006 (EDT)

The same question strikes me when I go looking round an ogre village on Outland. Do you think there's some centaur carpet manufacturer whos making a tidy sum exporting all of these rugs from Kalimdor? ^^ --

Need for Warcraft RPG category?
If folks are starting to add Warcraft RPG stuff to the wiki, should we add and use a new Category:Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game for people to use and recommend it for use in WoWWiki:Category policy? --Fandyllic 6:55 PM PDT 13 Apr 2006

I agree it would definitely clear up confusion so players don't try looking for the stuff in World of Warcraft MMO when the lore is only covered in RPG.Baggins 20:53, 13 April 2006 (EDT)


 * Okay, I added Category:Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game and put it under Category:Lore. Maybe I'll make a banner soon. --Fandyllic 11:52 PM PDT 13 Apr 2006

I've added an article on Flavor Lore that explains how there are sometimes legends that exist within the universe that intentionally compete with other legends held by other cultures, or turn out to be wrong when new facts are discovered by individuals in the world.

Many of these examples were intended to potentially contradicting, others may have arisen out of retcons. The concept of Flavor Lore mirrors reality in that it is similar to how various historians have competing ideas that they argue about...Baggins 13:25, 14 April 2006 (EDT)

Well added obscure lore mentioned in Warcraft III/Frozen Throne
Which states that centaur once heavily lived in the Blasted Lands.Baggins 15:50, 10 December 2006 (EST)

Horde Player's Guide
Horde player's guide also makes refrence to centaurs in the Eastern KingdomsBaggins 15:53, 10 December 2006 (EST)

Centaur in the Eastern Kingdoms
This article has evolved more towards chronicaling all references to centaur found in Eastern Kingdoms. Not necessarily the specific forest subspecies mentioned in MoM. Although there may be some direct connections to the centaurs found in the eastern kingdoms, but its unknown.Baggins 18:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Then I suggest we split the page. After all, it could be a rather different species. --