Talk:Light

No churches?
What? The Church of the Holy Light has no churches?

-I don't think it was ever stated explicitly that they flat out don't go to church, so I removed that. I know it's more involved in practice than worship though, and the churches are kind of like libraries. -Kinst 22:01, 13 Nov 2005 (EST)

Dosen't Make Sense
Out of curosity, how can the Allaince Paladins, who follow and worship the Holy Light, use said powers against mambers of the Scarlet Crusade who also weild such power? I mean, sure, it may be a gameplay quirk but, there's also the fact both the Alliance and the Scarlet Crusade want to kill the Forsaken, yet the Forsaken preists are also capable of useing the holy light. Has the Holy Light changed from a benevolent being, as it was implied to be in earlier titles, to nothing more then a power that can be tapped, like arcane? Hordesupporter 20:34, 26 January 2007 (EST)


 * Forsaken priests worship the Shadow. Their healing ability comes from knowledge. Troll priest abilities comes from tradition and ancestors (check the low level priest quests). As for Scarlet Crusade, they don't go against the Alliance or Argent Dawn, they have emissaries in a few Alliance towns and Light's Hope Chapel. They are just mislead and go around nab nonbelievers who venture into their territories. --Voidvector 21:49, 26 January 2007 (EST)


 * According to lore in a short story in HPG, and other articles in the same book, Forsaken are not capable of using the Holy Light, being undead. Instead, many have twisted what they originally knew into a belief known as the Forgotten Shadow. Forsaken's ability to use "light" based spells in game is merely a game mechanic, to make priests from various races equal for the most part (except for the racial spells).Baggins 12:21, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

Someone said the Scarlet Crusade dudes nab non beleivers. I thought they were posessed by demons so thats why theyre crazy. Or is that just the SM dudes? (Mr.X8 20:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC))

No, no, no. They are basically fine, just mislead. The only one who is "possessed" is the main leader, who is actully Balnazzar. Acjpb 00:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

So, how did "it all start"?
Has it actually been explained how the people of Azeroth started to rever the Holy Light? To my knowledge, no. I personally belive that the Naaru (although without actually explaining what the Naaru are) appeared in visions to one person in Azeroth (think about Moses). This person became the first follower of the Light in Azeroth, who in turn started to spread what the Naaru had told him/her; the word of the Holy Light. Of course, this is just my humble theory :S. Regards, --Theron the Just 01:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

That is a very good theory. It highly influences changes to my theory. I believe that a god-like being, possibily a titan, came to someone lke Alonsus Faol, and he spread the word. I think this person might've freed the humans out of tyranny or guide them. And I think the naaru are like angels that helped him achieve the word of the god. This could explain the old thinking of the light as a God. I hope, for the sake of my theory, that the god reappears to the church so it can rekindle it's old ideas. Acjpb 17:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Refernce To Real World
From What I gather, the Holy Light's organization is very similar to the Catholic and Orthodox churches. You know, the cathedral, bishops and archbishops. The Scarlet Crusade, the abbeys. The sybmol of the light which look like a stick with a two half circles on it is very similar to a crusifix. Can anyone point out more references? Acjpb 00:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


 * the organization of the church resembles the Catholic Church but the teachings heavily resemble Judaism User:Dunnsworth


 * It is true, their philosophy is very similar to Judaism or perhaps Buddhism but the Cathedral of Light has nearly all of the liturgical elements such as an altar and the cathedral design used by the present day Roman Catholic Church and perhaps the Anglican/Episcopalian Church as well. But as seen in Eastern Plague Lands, the Scarlet Basilica also is this same design and the Catholic Church is the only faith that still uses Basilicas.  Other areas also resemble this particular architecture such as the chapels and the Scarlet Cathedral in SM. --Mellar (talk) 02:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Three Virtues
Three virtues are part of the Church of Holy Light, not holy light in general. Holy light belief system for the draenei is a bit different. Also there is no reason to have redundant information in more than one article. In anycase you can go to any article that discusses the three virtues and is always about the discussion of the culture of "Church of Holy Light" as far as I know, human, dwarves and high elf organization, at least in World of Warcraft RPG and up.

It predates any knowledge of the drainei interpretations of the holy light. Its misleading to think that Azeroth cultural beliefs apply exactly the same to the draenei belief systems as established in the The Burning Crusade. That info fits better under more specific banner of the Church of the Holy Light. Infact the Alliance Player's Guide and Horde Player's Guide specifically states the three virtues are part of the Church of Light belief system.Baggins 23:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Which might be the reason for my mentioning of the "as revered by the Azerothian worshippers"-part, in case you didn't notice it before reversing the edit. Also note that no Draenei ever talks about the Holy Light, they simply talk about the Light. The Holy Light seems to be the name for the human Light-based philosophy.
 * Also, when someone wants to look up the "Three Virtues of the Holy Light", in my opinion it would be logical to look in the Holy Light article first. But maybe my logic indeed is flawed, as you already implied in the Scarlet Crusade discussion.
 * Whatever. But just go ahead. Apparently it's your wiki, and I've gotten somewhat tired of my contributions constantly and unrespectfully being reversed or deleted by you without even the slightest attempt to discuss things first. --Tulon 19:45, 22 November 2007

Actually humans call it the "light" too, perhaps a move to just "light"? As for discussion what do you think this is? Also don't take it personal, when I moved things around it had nothing to do with you, it was just a clean up to merge certain details that fit better in another article then it did this one. Church of Light and Cult of the Forgotten Shadow mirror each other, and therefore the articles fit better mirroring each other as well.Baggins 19:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Tulon, please don't mistake people editing similar articles being the same as tracking that person's edits. In any case, as for the article title, yes, it could make sense to move this to "Light" if that is the more general term. 20:01, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Blood elves
This article needs a bit more info on the blood elves belief system kept by their Blood Knight paladins, and priests.Baggins 20:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Does the Light advocate celibacy?
It has been said that the organization of the Holy Light resembles the catholic church. In that church, priests live in celibacy, that is, they foreswear the pleasures of the flesh and the intimacy of a family (hope I phrased that correctly, just meant as a description) to fully serve God and their community. And there are monks and nuns, who also chose celibacy. There are no priestesses, so that is an open difference to the WoW Holy Light.

We also have the paladins, originated in armored priests, for which I take the orders of the crusades as the real-life inspiration. These were warrior monks.

This is, of course, meaningless in the world of Warcraft. But I keep asking myself whether priests and/or paladins are expected to live in celibacy.

Opinions? Knowledge?

If there is any conlusion, the Light page may be extended by "There is no word on celibacy" or "Priests are usually celibates" or whatever.

Dimanche 21:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think celibacy is expected in paladins, because Tirion Fordring had a wife in Of Blood and Honor, along with a child. As for the priests, I'm not sure. This is a good question; I don't care about what it is in the end, but I was always kinda curious which religion it was moddeled after. [[File:Alliance 15.png]] ?? Quest Giver Troy Frostwind, High Elf 02:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Star Wars? The Force isn't like the Light
Isn't the Force in Star Wars some kind of tiny animal that makes up everything, and by worshipping (or something) them they work for you? That doesn't sound like the Light at all!--Mannerheim 01:32, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * No, the force is a thing in everything. It is not an animal, midichlorines or whatever is a chemical used to manipulate it. I do not think people 'worship' it. I have only seen the movies and a better fan could tell you more accurate stuff.-- 01:37, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Midi don't manipulate, it was more of something that allowed access to the energy of the universe. So the more mid the stronger someone's connection. Though they are kind of like a reverse mitochondria, :p.Baggins 02:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Elune?
Could Elune be the source of the Light? She is the only definitive "great god(ess)". Yeah, sure, the naaru are practically made of the Light, but could they be her(capital "H"?) messengers? Such as God and the angels in real-world religions? --Archmage Rodyn 1:34, 11 May 2008


 * I don't believe this is the case, seeing as certain quests and bits of lore refer to the Naaru as 'born at the dawn of :
 * creation.' It is more likely in fact that Elune is an Old Goddess. That isn't to say though, that she could be a source :of Light, however I do not believe that she is the source of all Light. I'm interested to know what makes you think she is the source of Light. -- [[Image:Inv_staff_78.png | 20px |]] Astus the Graven One

The Draenei
I find yet another piece of confusion in the suggestion that the faith of the Holy Light is non-theistic. If you read the conversation between Matis the Cruel (Blood Elf) and the Draenei at Blood Watch, posted in the article about Matis, you see three instances of treating the Light as a person.

1. Velen uses a variant on the courtroom line issued upon the sentence of death: "May the Light [instead of God] have mercy on your soul." 2. Matis refers to the Light as suffering. Perhaps he is referring to M'uru, but why use "the Light" as a synonym for one Naaru? That's a bit bizarre. 3. Vindicator Kuros refers to the Light as "not permitting" Matis to act. Few people react with such moral outrage to someone proposing to violate, say, the law of gravity.

Granted, this is one bit of the game, but it's still there.

Tiraline (talk) 05:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * And this isn't a forum. Our RPG expert is away at the moment, so he'll cite this stuff (or not) when he gets back, or someone else will. In the meantime, the only thing I can suggest is the Draenei conception of the Light is different from the native Azerothian conception.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 13:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Cross
From what I've been able to gather, that cross-equivalent symbol you see in many places seems to be the symbol representing the Holy Light (like Christianity's cross or Judaism's star of David). Should a picture be added to the article?  Xavius, the Satyr Lord  18:06, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * We have File:Scarlet Crusade flag.jpg, but it has been the subject of some debate.-- 21:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


 * So it is agreed that the symbol in question IS the symbol representing the Holy Light? Also, I'm sure I saw it as a grave marker somewhere... [[Image:INV Misc Orb 04.png|20px]] Xavius, the Satyr Lord  23:06, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 
 * Found it -- [[Image:Inv_staff_78.png | 20px |]] Astus the Graven One


 * The grave markers are everywhere. Sometimes pages just do not get updated per discussions... -- 03:36, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Cleaning
I'll start doing small clean-ups of the articles. But While I read I've find a confusion here. This article is both about the Light (the energy, force or magic that created the universe with the Void) and the (non canon) non-theistic philosophy developed in the RPGs. I think there should be another article about the religion. Should I split this article? There's enough material for both.--Cemotucu (talk) 13:40, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Definitely. Light for the magic source, Holy Light for the religion. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 16:46, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Life =/= supreme being
Muffinus said the Life is the fifth element, yes. But he did not say it was the supreme being. Life is the 5th element! Me fifth element - supreme being. Me protect you. That is a direct quote of Leeloo from the Fifth Element movie. Notice the poor grammar with "me fifth element"? Leeloo had just barely learned English. Muffinus was making a joke reference because they are both 5th elements. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 21:19, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I haven't watched that movie in a long time lol >.> <3. I didn't recall if he was quoting Leeloo but Life (or the Spirit of Life) is the fifth element in WoW's lore and clearly it is the supreme being (it's in everything, including Sargeras? =O). Perhaps Muffinus was making a joke, but I can't help but to believe his statement applies to the fifth element in WoW's lore. Meh=[<3VisionOfPerfection (talk) 21:30, 17 September 2015 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection


 * First of all I have no idea what the context of this discussion is. It feels like it appeared out of this page out of nowhere. But in response to VoP...where does the "fifth element" idea come from in WoW's lore? The only thing I see about it in this article is an uncited mention in the speculation section. I'd never heard of it phrased that way until now. It's also not at all clear it's the "supreme being" - it's not a singular being at all. It sounds like much more of a movie reference than anything else. Granted, I have been pretty tuned out of WoW for a few months now...&#32;- jerodast (talk) 06:06, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

The fifth element idea presumably comes from Plato's "On the Heavens" book, which apparently presents a quintessential element which is located in celestial regions (sky/heavens) and heavenly bodies (the moon, the sun). It's essentially the divine element that takes and gives life. You can find more information about it here. Personally, it seems to me like every single type of energy (arcane, light, fel, etc.) derives from Life and is thus divine in nature.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 15:53, 18 September 2015 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection


 * I'm well aware WoW mythology draws from many sources, I wasn't asking about Plato haha. Thanks for the link to the Spirit of life page though. But the "element" identification still seems like an offhand remark in one novel that isn't really supported by other work. The 4 elements in WoW are well defined, with histories, power structures, and their own planes of existence. "Element" here is just one of many vague synonyms including "energy", "spark", "power", and "spirit". I mean, whatever, latch onto that word if you want, but be aware that "the elements" have meant something very specific in Warcraft and "the spirit of life" doesn't really match that at all.


 * (Also, in the very same tweet cited about Life being the 5th element, Muffinus also says he himself is the 5th element. Are we regardnig that as canon too? It's very obviously a joking reference, not a meaningful source.)


 * You may be well aware that WoW mythology draws from many sources, but you did ask, "where does the "fifth element" idea come from in WoW's lore" (did you want quotes from the novels or something?) And what do you mean "the elements" have meant something very specific in Warcraft?


 * Lastly, Muffinus quoted Leeloo from the Fifth Element movie (as Aquamonkey pointed out) but what the fifth element represents in that movie might apply (and most likely does apply) to what the fifth element in WoW's lore represents. It's either the Spirit of Life is the collection of all the Spirits that animates (gives life to) everything or there are many Spirits of Life/the Wilds but they all represent the same thing. It's essentially God "the supreme being" in the form of the Holy Spirit.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 18:36, 18 September 2015 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection


 * That's not what Leeloo is in the movie, though. She's just a person. She's "the supreme being" because she is genetically perfect. She's the 5th element in the sense that she's the 5th component to make the weapon against evil work. She's not an elemental component of nature. Completely different from the Spirit of Life. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 19:54, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

She describes herself as the "Supreme Being", which is literally the term used to described God (she clearly represents God, Jesus, or some other force that gives life or serves as a savior of life). Also, how is she not an elemental component of nature? She is a part of nature (as are all human beings) and she is an element.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 20:51, 18 September 2015 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection
 * Let's keep this discussion relevant to the article, and not about the Fifth Element (the details of which are, frankly, entirely irrelevant with respect to Warcraft). -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:56, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ^I was about to state that<3=] I believe it would be best to discuss it in the elemental section but it's all groovy.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 20:59, 18 September 2015 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

About Sapiency
So, I thought it would be nice to talk about this here before adding or editing anything in the proper article.

You see, ''some self-appointed sages are taking up the mantle of rewriting the pontifications on the Holy Light, but there is no regulation or overseer. There are fresh looks at old ideas, as well as old ideas copied word for word by diligent old priests with perfect memories. As one would expect, sometimes these scholars clash when someone realizes that the texts are beginning to contradict one another.'' :). That's what happened in the RPG Books, but also what's been happening IRL for quite a long time, at least in the Spanish RP servers.

The thing is, there's been a group of players who defend the following:
 * Human sayings such as "Light be with you" or "Light give me strenght" are not really refering to the Light as an entity with it's own will, but instead say those lines as encouragement for their own conviction or faith, seen prayers as mantras or a way of meditation. So, when someone says "Light be with you", he is not praying for the light to actually be by your side or giving you power from outside, but actually encouranging you to stay in path of the Light, aka Church' philosophy of the Light (the way to commune with your Light/Soul), and channeling your own internal Light, just as the Monks do with their Chi.

So, this group of players believe that priests and paladins are monk-like (also explaining Argent and Scarlet light-monks), and they see the followers of the philosophy of the Chruch of the Holy Light as described in the Warcraft I manual, with the Clerics channeling the "spirit of humanity", and believing that the Light is inside of them.

This is indeed a very good point, and is also well complemented by the fact that, assuming this is all true, those who don't really study the teachings and the philosophy of the Light may very well think about it as a superior entity or even a deity with it's own will, as they wouldn't really understand what "the Light" is or how it works, leading to some cases like Dansel Adams thinking that the disparition of Naxxramas was a miracle of the Light.

So, i'm also not entirely convinced by this, and I think that, in this case, the whole philosophy and teachings of the light would most likely work like the ones about the Force from the Jedi, beign the Void it's "Dark Side".

I mean, I think it would mostly be the same, but with priests and paladins knowing or thinking that the Light is indeed inside of everyone, but also everywhere, like the cosmic force it really is, but with it's own will, as speculated before.

In this variation, the humans would not only meditate/pray to commune with the light inside of them, but also with the light itself. So, sayings such as "Light be with you" would very much be like "May the Force be with you", not necessarily hoping that the Light stays with you, but that you stay with the Light, by following it's will and it's teachings, but opening the possibility of it also meaning that they indeed hope the Light protects you and gives you strenght/insight/ whatever, depending on the moment or who says it, and also how much they know about the Light or it's teachings.

I think this versions would make more sense, as it does not conflict with what we know the humans knew/believed/thought and/or the philosophy of the Church of the Holy Light, and would explain some of the sayings and speculation, while also making sense with the rest about the Light's sapiency, without having to explain the faith and believes of some of the ones used as examples by saying they're ignorant or heretics.

Following the same example as before, Dansel Adams thinkg that the Light has it's own will wouldn't mean he's entirely wrong about the Light or how it works (as seen by the Church), even though he may still not understand the philosophy of the light or it's teachings, as he is a Hunter, and not a priest or a paladin.

So, the question is: Do you think it should be added to the speculation section that some of these sayings could very well mean they hope you stay in the path of the light, and not the opposite, aside of them thinking the Light has/doesn't have it's own Will?

And also the other one: What do you think about the first theory? Do you think it could be possible? If not, why? I personally think it clashes with some NPCs (Like Brigitte Abbendis or Revil Kost) beliefs, but otherwise would explain everything nicely. Elissabethhaser (talk) 00:59, 13 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I believe that Blizzard simply doesn't know what it wants to do with the Light. I feel like every year there's a new book or expansion pack retconning everything we knew before. In Warcraft I and II the priests and paladins were basically christians, in Warcraft III and the RPG there is suddenly no God and the Light is the Force and paladins are basically jedi, then with Chronicles the Light is a actually again a positive, creative universal force of the universe, and now with the coming expack the Light is actually bad/no better than the Void. So ... I'll pass on this debate :( Xporc (talk) 08:22, 13 October 2017 (UTC)