Talk:Old Gods speculation

Untitled
See also relevant discussion at Talk:Old Gods.

The Forgotten One
"I can hardly beleive that the Forgotten one killed by Arthas is an Old God. Arthas didn't have "an army of undead" with him, he just had a dosen or two soldiers and was in a very weak state when they reached the Forgotten one (he was losing his powers). And remember that the Old Gods were able to fight with the Titans themselves. And how powerful the Titans really are? You can see from the fact that Sargeras ALONE was able to defeat Eredars and the Nathrezim EASILY. Thats including Archimonde and Kil'jaeden. So there's no way a pack of undead soldiers with two heroes (one of them very weak) was able to kill an Old God, even if he was in a weakened state (not to mention there is no proof that he really was in a weakened state). And C'thul was defeated by many HEROES, not ordinary units. Also there is a sugestion that C'thul was weakened because he was wounded by the Titans (they thought tey killed him), which doesn't mean that the other Old Gods are also weakened. So whatever that was there's no way it was an Old God." - Daki91

WoW PCs are much closer in power to regular units (footmen, grunts, etc.) than they are to hero units - you can't take on the likes of Thrall or Tyrande one-one-one and win, can you?

It takes 40 level 60 PCs to defeat C'Thun. It also takes 40 level 60 PCs to defeat Anub'Rekhan (though he is somewhat easier than C'Thun). Anub'arak is much stronger than Anub'Rekhan. It's not much a stretch to assume that Anub'arak could defeat C'Thun by himself. Arthas was weakened at the time, but he was still a peerless swordsman with an artifact weapon - even in that state, he'd most likely be more than a match for any 5 or 10 PCs. They also had around a dozen crypt fiends with them (likely all level 60+ elites).

Old God or not, the Forgotten One could have been much more powerful than C'Thun (in his weakened state) and they'd still have been able to take it down. -- Egrem 18:30, 18 April 2007 (EST)

Remember that their is a fine line between game mechanic facts, and lore facts. Hordesupporter 16:06, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

Just a retcon?

I think that this thing is C'thun, but in an early stage of plot development. The forgotten one may have been ment to play the same role to the nerubians C'thun does to the Qiraji, but long before AQ was even thought of. With the idea of the aqir split and given the lack of lore on the two, his location (and slaying) may have just been retconned. Any thoughts?-- 17:25, 25 April 2007 (EDT)

Also I think that if it is not a retcon, this is a projection of C'thun (as guessed above). When the trolls split the empire, and then the split was made perminant by the sundering, the Nerubians wre cut off from C'thun's influence and developed their own twisted/cruel, but not genocidal to all non-insect life, culture. C'thun made this projection to re-enslave the Nerubians. That explains how a small army of undead led by a weakened Arthas could kill a projection of an already weakened old god.-- 19:12, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

Complete rehash
To say this article needs a major facelift is a gross understatement. We've got people disagreeing on numbers, zealots trying to prove the Forgotten One is an Old God, a "speculation" section on why the Forgotten One isn't an Old God, and about seven different definitions of "Faceless." This article must be fixed, or removed. --Ragestorm 21:27, 17 December 2006 (EST)
 * Agreed, i considered doing so, but i just don't have the time today. -- Zeal Vurte 03:23, 18 December 2006 (EST)


 * It constantly repeats itself.-- 22:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Time Rift
In relation to reason for the changes in, i'd like to point out that it is speculation. War of the Ancients never makes it clear what caused the timerift. It is more plausable it was an action in the future, otherwise it would have always happened that way and never had been a timerift. Old Gods, even though they have little concept of time, do not live outside the bounds of it. I agree the changes were correct, just not the reason. It probably should be added as speculation in this article. --Zeal Vurte 07:59, 20 December 2006 (EST)


 * Nozdormu doesn't specifically state that it's the Old Gods, but he does state that the disturbances in the flow of time originated prior to the War, as he "sent Krasus to the time period where he believed the threat originated", meaning that the escape plan would have originated then, not during the events of RoC or TFT, thereby nixing, in my opinon, the possibility that the Old God Arthas faced (if is was an Old God) was weakened by using the time-rift. --Ragestorm 09:04, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Snakes..... Why did it have to be snaes!?
Does anyone else notice a lot of snakes involved with the Old Gods? The wailling caverns are crawling with them, the Naga have snake aspects of snakes as do some of the fire creatures serving the Firelord. Perhaps Snakes are big thing for the Elder Gods. Or maybe just one of them. C'thun doesn't seem to have any ties to snakes, he's more of a bug guy. Maybe there's one who's all about snakes. Meneldir


 * Ula-tek, the troll snake god is perhaps one of them. Hakkar is snake-like and perhaps one of them also. The RPG says this.-- 20:19, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It's also possible that the use of snakes in the Wailing Caverns was coincidental to Hakkar's snake-theme. The Druids of the Fang were always Druids of the Fang...they just weren't always evil.  Then again, it's possible that they were susceptible to corruption because their totem matched that of Hakkar's. Dwoedin 14:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * In answer to the snake comment, just look at C'thun. The mouth, the tentacles... He's either a giant freakish snake or a subterranian octopus with a lot of eyes... Am I right? Link55557 (talk) 05:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Why Azeroth?
When the old gods were imprisoned in the elemental realm (Eh are the elementals and the old gods the same thing?) which happens to be on Azeroth. Maybe it has to do with the well of eternaty as by chance it could be the only one of its kind (Besides the sunwell)in the universe! Plus if the old gods sealed them in that realm. They would need a door (In other words in order to lock someone in a room you must open a door so they can enter).! and werent the Legion in there *Insert high number of invasions of planets* using the well to get to Azeroth like a portal?(If my sources are correct AND I HAVNT READ THE WAR OF THE ANCIENTS TRILOGY)The old gods might have well would of excaped using it but now cant (SINCE THERE IS A HUGE DEAD TREE ON TOP OF IT) --The last Alterac 07:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * As i feel sorry for you now, because apparently no one is daring to touch this, i'll give you a blunt answer. Go read those books, or even the relevent wiki pages relevent to what you're speculating as you seem to have no understanding of what you're talking about. For the record. Old Gods are not Elementals, they were not sent to the elemental plane, which in turn is not located on Azeroth. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 18:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The Elemental Plane is not "on azeroth" its shares a seperate plane of existence in the same area as Azeroth. It more or less overlaps Azeroth but is not part of Azeroth.Baggins 18:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

one under maelstorm?
If one was under Maelstorm that would mean the titans burried one under the Well of Eternity which wouldn't make any sense at all. Geeko 07:22, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Except that in The Sundering, an Old One reached from the Well of Eternity to attack Nozdormu, as well as manifested at the end to attempt salvage the summoning of Sargeras. Dwoedin 14:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The well did have a "demonic taint" about it right? What if the Titans syphoned an old god's power to manifest as the well? That would explain why they put an Old God down there... Link55557 (talk) 05:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This could also help the explanation of the Highborne falling into the influence of the Burning Legion. It is possible that the Old God drove them half insane, wich also would explain why the Highborne wanted to keep the Well for them selves, and also why they got addicted by arcane magic.

Cleaning
This section...


 * "Avatar of the Old Gods?


 * There is much controversy surrounding the fact that Arthas, alone aside from Anub'Arak, and severely weakened, managed to kill an Old God. This leads many to the belief that he killed an "avatar" of an Old God, an extension of it, a sort of disposable body... while the Old God's mind was occupying said body, the actual god was still deep in its prison.
 * Some may argue that they were defeated so easily because they were in a regenerative state, and this is entirely possible, however all alternatives must be considered.
 * Following this theory to its logical conclusion, we can now wonder: did we actually kill C'Thun? Or was it just another fake body, another extension of its mind? No clear evidence exists to justify nor nullify this theory... so it remains a mystery, for the moment."

...is entirely redundant to what is said on the page beforehand. I think it should be deleted. Dwoedin 14:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Round Two
Cleaned up the page again. No substantive edits. Added bullet points. Arranged by topics and subtopics, so that the page flows better from Existence -> Location -> Abilities -> Factions -> Influence -> Future. Dwoedin 17:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You man want to look over the main old gods article to make sure things are consistent between the two (I.E. that this article is taking everything into account).
 * Also per policy speculation should only use posted if and only if it can be supported by lore of some kind or by quotes from Blizzard employees (citations are a must), and speculation must not actively conflict with known lore (I.E. speculation should not knowingly ignore established lore).Baggins 17:58, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * That's the trouble with this page. I didn't write a lot of the information on this page, but I hesitated to outright eliminate a lot of the false information unless I had a clear and convincing reason to take it out.


 * Compounding my reviewing difficulty is that I discovered the "cannonical" Blizzard lore on this matter keeps changing. An archived version of Blizzard's "Old Gods and the Ordering of Azeroth" says that of the five old gods, four were imprisoned beneath the earth.  Now, that page says all five were imprisoned.  Also, the original references to Hakkar the Soulflayer, who was the "Ancient Blood God," might have simply meant that he was worshiped in ancient times by the Trolls rather than being an Old God.  However, players interpreted "Ancient Blood God" as a synonym for Old God--which we know is now a term of art referring specifically to the five lords defeated by the Titans.  The RPG manuals carried that interpretation on, however, and the RPG manuals seem to be semi-cannonical.  But then they also say that Ula'Tek is an Old God, and that corpse of Old Gods are in Desolace...if these claims are true, then there are more than the original five Old Gods, and Cthulu-inspired theme only holds true for C'Thun. Dwoedin 22:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Round Three
Took your advice, and got a bit harsher with cleanup. Removed a lot of stuff that seemed entirely unsupported, which made further organizational changes necessary. Dwoedin 22:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

One issue, I notice, the speculation on about "old god" lower case. As far as I know it has only been spelled that one in one instance ever. It may not mean anything.

As for your comments on canon, I must warn about our canon policy. The policy is that we do not allow it to be used in pages. If you read the article on Warcraft RPG you'll see that it is indeed considered a valid source of lore.Baggins 03:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

As for how many were "imprisoned" depending on the source, some say, all 5, sometimes only 4, other times only 3 :p, flavor lore perhaps?Baggins 03:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Apologies about the use of the word "canon". "Retcon" is okay though, right?  Dwoedin 04:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * We tend to avoid retcon too, since alot of the stuff is hidden under the above mentioned flavor lore, :p.Baggins 04:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Compiling the references to 'Old Gods'
To keep track of all references to Old Gods, I'm putting down all the direct references to the term. I may add indirect but possible references later.
 * In times of legend, when the Titans first arrived on the world of Azeroth, they found it in the grip of cruel beings called the Old Gods. These entities and their elemental servants opposed the Titans. The two forces clashed; the war was long and violent and ripped Azeroth into new shapes. The Titans triumphed in the end, and they constructed a prison plane in the Twisting Nether to hold their immortal enemies. This world is the Elemental Plane, and it still holds the elementals and their dark masters.


 * Revenants are minor elemental creatures who once served as foot soldiers for the malefic Old Gods when the world was young. When the titans defeated the Old Gods and chained them beneath the cold earth, the wicked revenants and their greater elemental cousins were banished to an alternate dimension. Locked away from the world they once ruled, the fire of the elementals’ hatred for the titans and their creations burned with increasing intensity.


 * Troggs are a barbaric, almost “caveman-like’’ race with very low intelligence but a great capacity for violence of all kinds. They were the titans’ first attempt to create life from living stone, but the experiment was a failure. Dwarven scholars postulate that the experiment went wrong due to the interference of the Old Gods. (The successful second attempt gave rise to the dwarven race.)


 * Though humans may have previously had access to divine spells through worship of the Old Gods or early cults that would become the Church of the Holy Light, once they meet the elves of Quel’Thalas they will finally have access to arcane spellcasting.


 * In all my years wandering Azeroth, I have never failed to follow a rumor of an ancient city in shambles or the entrance to an underground temple to the Old Gods.


 * Long ago, the trolls here attempted to summon and control Hakkar, an old god of theirs.


 * The Cauldron is an enormous excavation site...I was not able to determine for what the Dark Irons are digging. Probably titan or Old God artifacts, but I cannot be sure.


 * I believed these ruins and odd, stepped pyramids remained from the days of Zul’Aman’s empire, but they could be much older. Titan or Old God remnants, perhaps? I resolved to look into the matter. ...They worship ancient deities, though whether these deities are the mythic Old Gods or some strange creation of their voodoo witch doctors, I do not know.


 * Ula-Tek, apparently, is a serpent goddess. One of the Old Gods, perhaps? Obviously, this information is bad news, but the Ironforge dwarves are particularly concerned:they have seen the devastation that an elemental lord’s rebirth brings, and a bona fide Old God must be even more powerful.


 * Yet he inadvertently summoned Ragnaros, a blazing Old God whose birth tore the land asunder. Dark Iron dwarves...Their eyes glow with orange flame — one of many gifts from their Old God master.


 * A shadow hunter might venture onto grounds consecrated to the Old Gods and spill his own blood to entice the forces of primeval cruelty to come and visit their worst afflictions upon him.


 * Very few mortals know of the Old Gods, and fewer still consider them anything more than a legend. Before the titans came to Azeroth, the malign Old Gods -- colossal beings of elemental fury -- rules the world and the savage elementals dwelt upon it. The titans defeat the Old Gods and chained the raging beings deep beneath the earth where supposedly, they remain to this day.


 * To the west of Darkshore stands a mysterious monument, a massive adamantine glaive buried in an unmovable boulder called the Old God Skull. The night elves consider this a sacred area, as they believe the mysterious titans, creators of the world, are the only ones who could have wielded the gigantic glaive.

--Baggins 04:11, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I love you. If you'd help tag the flavor lore too, I'd have your children.  Hmm...I'm suddenly thinking Old God Speculations should be done based on cultural perspectives...  Dwoedin 04:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Alright continuing.
 * There exist beings known only in legends to the peoples of Azeroth. Yet they are beings who have shaped not only the course of history in the world of Warcraft, but often the world itself:the Elemental Lords, ruling over planes of pure power and awaiting the time when they will once again serve the banished Old Gods...


 * Former servants of the evil Old Gods, the Elemental Lords once ruled Azeroth. Yet when the titans defeated the Old Gods, they banished the Elemental Lords and all elementals to a planar prison known now as the Elemental Plane. Currently, Ragnaros the Firelord inhabits Azeroth, a somewhat unwilling captive of the Dark Iron dwarves who worship him; and while he seeks to return to the Elemental Plane, he may still wreak grave destruction upon Azeroth.


 * When the titans defeated the Old Gods and brought order to the world, one of their first acts was to banish the Elemental Lords and their servants to a prison within the Twisting Nether. These agents of chaos could not be allowed to roam freely, or they would disrupt the new order the titans sought to create. Thus, the titans fashioned a separate plane to hold their old foes. Over the course of a short period, they cast all the elementals they could find into this hastily crafted “jail.”


 * Consequently, humans make up a good number of the Twilight’s Hammer — followers of the Old Gods — but most people have never heard of ‘em. Yet. I’ll wager that if this dwarf’s intuition is still any good, we’ll be hearing more about — or from — those Old Gods soon. That sounds like a whole lot of fun, now don’t it?


 * The Twilight’s Hammer, servants of the Old Gods — real bastards — also have the Argent Dawn on their hit list.


 * With the new knowledge that corrupted human magi were responsible for much of the power of the Scourge, and that many humans still worship demons and the Old Gods, the night elves are more suspicious of humans they can’t keep their eyes on.


 * There are pockets where some nasty beasts have made their homes, and the extremely suspicious “Master’s Glaive” which may or may not be a deceased Old God, but generally things are pretty happy here.


 * Blackfathom Deeps...The Twilight’s Hammer, a foul cult dedicated to the Old Gods, works with the naga here for an unknown purpose...Zoram Strand...I noticed the insignias on their robes, marking these people as members of the Twilight’s Hammer: servants of the Old Gods.


 * Darkshore...The dwarves here are few, but they are experienced adventurers, and most of them are members of the Explorer’s Guild. Kalimdor is a land of many mysteries, and the dwarves here spend their time investigating these secrets, focusing specifically on Titan ruins and the creations of their enemies, the Old Gods.


 * This unusual monument consists of a large statue (or corpse?) surrounded by a small lake. Once a night elf holy place, the area is now under the control of the Twilight’s Hammer. After dragging one of the robed crazies to a corner to talk, I determined that they believe the statue is some sort of divine corpse — the remains of an Old God. The term “Master’s Glaive” refers to part of the monument — examined closely, the strange statue or mound in the center appears to be a snail shell-like skull, with a massive weapon imbedded in the crown. I would speculate that it’s possible a Titan killed one of the Old Gods here, or one of their minions.


 * Desolace...Faiths: Burning Legion, druidism, Old Gods, shamanism.


 * Many believe that the Valley of Bones is cursed, and as such almost all of the centaur clans avoid it. The valley’s floor is littered with what is believed to be bones of the Old Gods, presided over by Magram centaur necromancers and skeletons.


 * Silithus...Faiths: Ancients, druidism, Old Gods.


 * Magnataur are also unusual in that we have no idea where they came from. While they obviously resemble centaur, dryads and other hybrid races, they do not appear to be descendants of Cenarius. My theory is that they are in some way related to one of the Old Gods, but there is little to confirm or dispute this idea. They do not worship the Old Gods, or any gods at all, and I have yet to find any writings that detail their creation, even through legends or hearsay.


 * This metal is extremely rare, found only in some of the most remote regions of Azeroth. It is believed by archaeologists to have been formed during the prehistoric reign of the Old Gods, in places where there were high concentrations of elemental creatures. In fact, elementium isn’t native to Azeroth, and is found only near high concentrations of elemental creatures because they bring it from the Elemental Plane where it is actually quite common.


 * While the truth behind how this happened remains a mystery, the modern Twilight’s Hammer retains the destructive nature of Cho’gall’s clan, but almost nothing else. Somehow, one of the Old Gods has managed to make this clan its pawn; and since that time, the clan’s numbers and power have dramatically increased. Even humans and other former members of the Alliance flock to join the service of the elemental lords and help bring about the complete destruction of Azeroth. The largest groups of the Twilight’s Hammer now camp near the locations where they believe the Old Gods and their minions are sealed away; many wait for C’Thun’s awakening in Silithus, and others serve Ragnaros in the Blackrock Depths alongside the Dark Iron dwarves.


 * A thousand years ago, a being of unimaginable power — an Old God? — is said to have unleashed an army from the southern sands of Kalimdor...I don’t know enough about the silithid invasion to say anything other than, “Kill them until they die.” It’s important to know that the Twilight’s Hammer is supporting them, however, as are some elementals — that definitely makes it seem like an Old God is involved, and if that’s the case, we’re in for a whole new kind of nightmare.


 * We don’t know what Hakkar’s plans are yet, but since the green dragonflight was watching over his skeleton in the Sunken Temple, it’s safe to say he might be involved in the problems in the Emerald Dream. Perhaps he’s the child of an Old God? It’s hard to say; I don’t even know if they can have children. I’m not entirely sure I want to find out, either.


 * Some slightly larger discs, called the Discs of Norgannon, are powerful magic artifacts and hold a secret history of the titans’ war against the Old Gods. Several factions would do anything to get their hands on these invaluable discs. If the heroes retain possession of the discs here, some might believe that they are the Discs of Norgannon.


 * Throughout Silithus, insect swarms surged as if guided by some malignant, ancient intelligence. Behind the gates of the Scarab Wall the merciless qiraji stirred once again. Empowered by the Old God C'Thun, the qiraji prepared their legions for a worldwide assault to avenge their bitter defeat at the hands of the night elves a thousand years ago.


 * As the Titans made their way across the chaotic, primordial landscape, they encountered a number of hostile, elemental beings. The elementals, worshipping a race of unfathomable evil beings known only as the Old Gods, vowed to drive the Titans back and keep their world inviolate from the invaders’ metallic touch. The Pantheon, troubled by the Old Gods’ penchant for evil, sent their forces to make war upon the elementals and their dark masters. Though the elementals fought and raged, their powers could not stop the mighty Titans. The Pantheon shattered the Old Gods’ citadels and chained the five evil beings far beneath the surface of the world. Without the Old Gods’ power to keep their raging spirits bound to the physical world, the elementals dissipated and bled back into the earth itself. With the elementals’ departure, nature calmed, and the world settled into a peaceful harmony. The Titans, seeing that the threat was contained, set to work.


 * Baron Geddon is one of the eldest of all fire elementals, and he served as Ragnaros’ right hand during the beginning of the war against the titans. During one of the first battles against the then unknown titan attackers, Geddon was defeated and forced into humiliating retreat. Ragnaros immediately demoted his commander, thinking that Geddon had been defeated by an inferior foe, since the Old Gods and their lieutenants had never yet met a challenge. His replacement was the flamewaker Majordomo Executus; Geddon was infuriated that a creature not purely of fire replaced him, a noble among the elementals.


 * Also, the benevolent titans, though not gods themselves, cast a magical slumber upon the Old Gods and imprisoned them far below the surface of the world. It is possible for a god to exert influence over several locations simultaneously. Yet the power of a god is limited. Otherwise, of course, the Old Gods could not have been imprisoned. Nonetheless, an imprisoned, sleeping, or otherwise enfeebled god may still have an effect--conscious or not--on the god's surroundings. The development of the qiraji is said to be the result of just such an incidental influence. Can one ever truly destroy a god, putting a lasting end to its existence? Unfortunately that question has departed the realm of philosophy and become a matter of vital concern. Not long ago, the priests of Hakkar the Soulflayer succeeded in summoning their hungry god physically into Azeroth. Worse, C'Thun has awakened, freed itself, and reemerged from the planet's depths. Many valiant heroes are banding together in the hope of defeating these two evil gods.


 * Even godhood itself is no guarantee of superior might. Consider the titans' defeat of the Old Gods. The titans are not gods, but their vast power allowed them to imprison the Old Gods far below the surface of Azeroth.


 * As the Titans made their way across the primordial landscape, they encountered a number of hostile elemental beings. These elementals, who worshipped a race of unfathomably evil beings known only as the Old Gods, vowed to drive the Titans back and keep their world inviolate from the invaders' metallic touch. The Pantheon, disturbed by the Old Gods' penchant for evil, waged war upon the elementals and their dark masters. The Old Gods' armies were led by the most powerful elemental lieutenants: Ragnaros the Firelord, Therazane the Stonemother, Al'Akir the Windlord, and Neptulon the Tidehunter. Their chaotic forces raged across the face of the world and clashed with the colossal Titans. Though the elementals were powerful beyond mortal comprehension, their combined forces could not stop the mighty Titans. One by one, the elemental lords fell, and their forces dispersed. The Pantheon shattered the Old Gods' citadels and chained the five evil gods far beneath the surface of the world. Without the Old Gods' power to keep their raging spirits bound to the physical world, the elementals were banished to an abyssal plane, where they would contend with one another for all eternity. With the elementals' departure, nature calmed, and the world settled into a peaceful harmony. The Titans saw that the threat was contained and set to work.

--Baggins 04:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, now from the War of the Ancients;
 * The Old Gods existed only as legend even to most dragons, who had been born in the dawn of the world. Krasus, through his eternal nosiness--knew them to be much more. As the tale went, the three dark entities had ruled over a bloody chaos of which even the demon Lords of the Burning Legion could not imagine. They had ruled over the primal plane until the coming of the world's creators. There had been war of cosmic proportions and, in the end, the Old Gods had fallen. The three had been cast down into eternal imprisonment, the place of their confinement hidden from all and their powers bound until the end of time. That should have been the final line of the saga, but now Krasus suspected that the Old Gods had somehow found a manner by which to reach out to the mortal plane and seek that which would free them...The Old Ones were creating the key that would open the gates of their prison...and if it happened, even sargeras would find himself pleading for the peace of death. Rip time apart and they would unmake their prison. Perhaps they even planned to reverse their own earlier defeat. It was difficult to guess exactly to the extent of the Old God's plans, for they were as much above him as he was to a worm. Still, at least their initial goal was understandable...The Aspects were the most powerful creatures on all the mortal plane. If anyone had a chance against the Old Gods it was them...Combined, surely all five of the Aspects represented a force capable of defeating the elder beings. If not for Neltharion--...How labyrinthine the plots of the Old Gods! They were the ones who had turned the Earth Warder! They were the ones who had twisted Neltharion's mind-and with more than one intention! The Old Gods had made of him a puppet who would aid their escape but they also divided-and therebye weakened-there one potential nemesis. Without Neltharion, the other four Aspects were not nearly as much of a threat. Worse, they also had Nozdormu occupied, no doubt another layer of their planning...The dark elders had spent too much time and effort. Set too many pawns in place and covered there machinations too well. How could anyone...undo their malevolent designs?


 * The Old Gods seek to use the disk, too, and they manipulate the Legion.


 * Who are the Old Gods of whom you spoke? A terrible evil. I will say no more, but know this. To defeat the Legion is to defeat them...


 * But there were others waiting in growing expectation, others with dire dreams far older than even that of the demon lord. They had waited for so very long for means to escape, the means to reclaim what had once been theirs. Each step of success by Sargeras toward strengthening his portal was a step of success for them. With the Well, with the Demon Soul, and with the lord of the Legion's might, they would instead open up a window into their eternal prison. And once open, there would be no sealing it again. The Old Gods waited. They had done so for so very lon, they could wait a little longer. But only a little...


 * Sargeras seeks entry into the mortal plane...and the Old Gods seek to manipulate the demon lord for their own escape!.


 * Rhonin and I will watch for reaction from Sargeras and the Old Gods!


 * The Old Gods! I felt them! But from inside the disk! The Demon Soul not only bears a part of our existence but theirs as well! ...clearly their addition to the disk's creation did not hinder the Elder Gods as it did the dragons. They obviously hoped to wield it, something that the other dragons could not do. Deathwing had evidently crafted it differently where they were concerned ... if he had realized their intrusion. Once again he had underestimated the Three.


 * The orc understood matic well enough to know that soon the passage would be strong enough for whatever evil desired to come through be it Sargeras or the "Old Gods" Krasus had mentioned.


 * In his wake, the Demon Soul-lost from his grip-plunged toward the whirlpool. We must seize control before either Sargeras or the Old Gods can restore it to the Portal's matrix! I think that, despite Deathwing's spell on it, I can hold it, at least long enough for our purposes! But we must reach it first.

--Baggins 05:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Blackfathom Deeps
I'm looking at the reference to Blackfathom Deeps, and I don't think it's suggesting that an Old God is actually imprisoned nearby. Rather, the area is devoted to the Old Gods and saturated with their influence by their minion Aku'mai. The presence of Twilight's Hammer is also not dispositive of an Old God's location. They are drawn to anything associated with the Old Gods or their minions.

Perhaps we should we change this page from identities & locations of prisons to areas of influence? That would certainly resolve a lot of the issues we've been struggling with. For example, loa like Ula-tek, Hakkar, the Dead Goliaths, etc., may or may not be Old Gods, may or may not be distinct entities, but they are certainly intertwined with Old God lore. Similarly, Blackfathom Deeps may or may not be the location of an Old God's prison, but rather, just an area strongly influenced by an Old God.

Besides, why would location matter when, according to Blizzard, "It is possible for a god to exert influence over several locations simultaneously?"

Personal opinions- Practically, I think Blizzard will never resolve the apparent numerical discrepancy between "The Five" and the flavor lore identifications of "Old Gods." I think it will never be resolved because a) Old Gods are supposed to be mysterious and unknown, b) an hour spent trying to figure it all out is an hour spent in their universe, and c) it doesn't confine their future expansions to a few identified bad guys.

Realistically, I think that the core Blizzard people (e.g. Metzen) had some idea of who and where the Old Gods were going to be by the time of WoW. However, because of the freedom allowed to dozens of people in altering the Warcraft universe, the Old Gods have been placed in too many locations for the original template to hold true. In their ignorance (I doubt everyone pores over all the pre-existing Warcraft materials before writing), these new entrants to the Warcraft universe have conflated ideas (Eternals/Gods/Old Gods/Loas/Primeval Gods), confused terms (old god/Old God), and thrown us red herrings in the form of a paranoid flavor lore scholar (Bronzebeard). Dwoedin 16:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well first, off LoM doesn't even mention Aku'mai. There is also the reference in HPG, "The largest groups of the Twilight’s Hammer now camp near the locations where they believe the Old Gods and their minions are sealed away". Additionally there is another issue, while War of the Ancients only mentions three Old Gods like there were only three ever, and it states those three were chained beneath the earth. Other sources state that five were chained beneath the earth. Yes, there could be red herrings involved but its not our job to say which ones are, ;).Baggins 16:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * "Aku'mai, a favored pet of the primordial Old Gods, has preyed upon the area ever since. Drawn to Aku'mai's presence, the cult known as the Twilight's Hammer has also come to bask in the Old Gods' evil presence." Place that alongside LoM, and you'll see where I think that it's just an Old God influenced area. ;) Dwoedin 16:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

If you went by last sentence alone, there is some implication is that Aku'mai is more than just a favored pet of the Old Gods, :p... it says specifically, "Aku'mai's presence...the Old Gods' evil presence". In anycase the last line implies Old Gods' have presence there... :pBaggins 17:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * But when interpreting someething that is unclear, generally things are read in toto--that is to say, everything must be read together in an interpretation that makes sense. By itself, the "Old Gods' evil presence" line suggests that the Old Gods may be present in BFD, but previous previous lines and other lore suggests that the "Old Gods' evil presence" is an aura existing wherever either an Old God or one of its minions is present.  Also note: Ragnaros in Blackrock is one of the Old God's minions, and that is why Twilight's Hammer has a presence in that area.  No where does it suggest that an Old God is actually present in Blackrock.  Dwoedin 18:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually the way I was reading it, it could imply that there is both a Old God pet, and Old Gods presence there.Baggins 00:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Or their blessings come secondhand from the pet.-- 00:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Ya, thats a possibility. Personally I wouldn't have used the word "presence" like they did though. Influence would have been a better term.Baggins 00:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, Dark Factions discusses old gods corruption seeping under Blackfathom Deeps, and goes as far to specifically point out that Aku'mai is separate issue altogether, a hydra woken up by the Sundering and then took the Blakfathom Deeps as its lair.Baggins (talk) 22:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That could be related to the dead one at the Master's Glaive nearby in Darkshore. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 01:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Troll and Titan architecture
Recently upon searching for a nice lovely place to bed down, and then raise up an army in my Black Citadel of Doom, I came across Bael Modan in The Barrens, the ruins the are excavating seem to be "Titan Ruins" from all sources of Lore however they do bear a striking resemblance to Troll Walls and temples... And well here is my stand on the Old Gods, Hakkar is a Faceless One, Faceless One pretty much equals: Old God Servant, Ula-tek may be a Servant or possibly was good at some point and corrupted to be a Faceless One... Anywho all of them are worshiped as Troll Deities, Is the supposed "Titan Ruins" a remnant of an Old Gods Citadel? And the Troll Gods formed the Troll Cities in a manner pleasing to them and their masters? I know that this is of little consequence but I thought I should bring it up, Troll Architecture = Old Gods? --Shiniki 00:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

yogg-saron and the emeral dream?
With the world tree up in northrend being corrupted, is it possible yogg entered the dream via the tree beforeit was torn down? Since Nordrassil was made for druids to enter the dream. Think it be possible? -Ibage

Nordrassil wasn't made for druids to enter the dream, it was made to grant the elves immortality and some powers over nature.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 05:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, the Dream was part of it, but ability to enter the Dream isn't dependent upon the existence of a World Tree, and it certainly wasn't the reason it was made. As for Yogg-Saron using it, it must be remembered that the main reason for Ysera's existence is to combat that threat, so I doubt he would need too much outside help. Plus, Yogg's prison would likely have been stronger at the time of the Tree's destruction. That said, it's still a likely guess. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 18:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It's unlikely that Yogg-Saron's prison was stronger when they tore down the tree, cause im pretty sure that it was Yogg-Saron's corruption of the tree that made them tare it down. Of course, they did likely not know what the reason to the corruption was.

End of all life
In the Halls of Stone it is revealed that killing all Old Gods will lead to the end of Azeroth. Perhaps that should be added somewhere on this page oder the article Old Gods. Citation: "Kadrak says: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host. Brann Bronzebeard says: If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed." Pure speculation: Yog Sototh will not be killable as a result. --Afaslizo (talk) 12:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Terramok
Terramok is known as being an 'Ancient Titan Vault'.

Terramok is underneath Maraudon, a holy place to the centaurs.

The Centaurs are sons of Theredras, daughter of Therazane, the Stonemother.

Could it be the prison of one old god right? Pudim17 (talk - contr) 17:27, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Incomplete?
"A blue post on the forums recently said that the Nerubians were "followers of the Old Gods on Northrend." This implies that there may be at least one Old God in Northrend, though the role an Old God would play in the expansion is still unclear." Would it be plausible to add something along the lines of -, although this could simply mean that Nerubians follow Old Gods, and the Nerubians are on Northrend.-? WarnzNoth (talk) 14:54, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It is noted at Old_Gods.-- 00:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no evidence that there are more than one old god in Northrend. It doesn't make sense in the lore, nor does it make sense in the content flow. That was a generalized statement and was never meant to imply that there are multiple old gods chained in Northrend. Ibage (talk) 02:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Daguhn?
Long ago I saw a movie based on the Shadow over Innsmouth novella by H.P Lovecraft, where the denizens of a town named Imboca (spanish for Innsmouth) have overthrown christianity in favour of the fish god Dagon, who has brought them wealth from the sea. Since that time they have mutated into fish-like forms.

So? Well... We know that Queen Azshara and her Highborne followers survived the Sundering by mutating into Nagas after her pact with an Old God, hidden in the depths of the sea we know today as the Maelstrom, much like the Imbocans turning into twisted aquatic mutants after adopting Dagon as their new God.

The name "Daguhn" is what I believe Blizzard creatives would name the Maelstrom Old God, based on how similar the current Old God names are to Lovecraft's Old Ones.

Orisai (talk) 21:17, 7 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I've been reading Lovecraft and though I'm by no means an expert I've come to the same conclusions. In addition to the story mentioned above, there's another short story by Lovecraft titled "Dagon". It's one of his early works and very 'basic' but it really fits in with this speculation. In "Dagon", a sailor strands on a strange volcanic island that has recently risen from the bottom of the ocean. After some climbing he discovers a hidden lake with altars/idols of an ancient deity and hieroglyphs of monstrous fish-men that seem to worship this creature. One of those fish-men turns out to be present there and fills the sailor with great dread, till he commits suicide, months later, after being tracked down by this creature to the civilised world. He makes mention of "an ancient Philistine legend of Dagon, the Fish-God" and says that "he dreams of the a day when they [the fish people] may rise above the billows to drag down in their reeking talons the remnants of puny, warexhausted mankind- of a day when the land shall sink, and the dark ocean floor shall ascend amidst universal pandemonium."
 * This 'could' fit with the whole Naga-stuff. Should there ever be a "Maelstrom" expansion, it seems very likely an Old God like Daguhn or Dagoth will make its appearance. --Hazir (talk) 15:41, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Liars?
Are the old gods liars? I dont think so, since some of their promises came true. For example, Deathwing was promised control of all the dragons. For a time, this was true. The naga were promised to live on after the sundering. Yet again, this one came true. So I have to believe that they don't lie to their servants.--Noabr (talk) 19:53, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Cataclysm
If the old Gods were chained beneath the earth, wouldn't the cataclysm potentially unearth them? Deathwing seeks to destroy us and the evil Old Gods could certainly cause trouble. BobNamataki (talk) 17:07, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Possible Old God Titles
Just something to think about. Was reading about C'thun and Yogg-Saron and I tried to think of other "types" of Old Gods. We already have the Old Gods of Chaos (C'thun) and Death (Yogg-Saron). Anyone have any ideas as to the other titles? My own personal guesses might be Wrath (just because it's a fitting word), Corruption (Emerald Dream), and Blood (in my opinion, not Hakkar, but maybe his master). jclipps (talk) 04:00, January 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * How about The Old God of fear? Because, when the high elves tried to settle in the kingdom later known as Lordearon, they were driven insane and left and the belief was "that something evil slept beneath the Glades". Maybe they unofficially feared it very much, (they almost obviously feared it since it drove them insane) and didn't just leave because of their people being driven to insanity, cause lets face it, they loved arcane power, (the reason they're not Night Elves any more) and the addiction must have starting just a little, since they hadn't taken Quel'Thalas yet hence the Sunwell not being created yet. And the Old God could provide them with huge power, possibly enough to satisfy their hunger.
 * If you should ask why the Humans were able to found Lordearon upon a god of fear, then it could have been in even greater sleep if you understand what i mean. Plus they were busy fighting both Orcs, the burning legion and the Scourge. While at the time the high elves were there, they were almost nomads and were trying to build a home. But if you know enough of the Undercity, you will know that it wasn't entirely built after the Scourge attacked, and even named before. Before the scourge, it served as sewers, a prison and also a graveyard, some of the poorest humans of Lordearon also lived within it. It is possible that some of the prisoners or the poor people was driven into insanity but because they were poor or imprisoned, they couldn't do anything since they didn't have the necessaries it took to become a kind of sorcerer nor any kind of warrior (either lack of money, skill/training or freedom). And Arthas almost showed a hint of corruption, since he was sure that there were no other way than to purge Stratholme.
 * You might ask about the Forsaken. Well since they are undead and only seek revenge upon the Scourge among with a few other things, I don't see them as a race that knows the meaning of the word fear, specially with their racial abillity Will of the Forsaken. And on the Forsaken analysis page it says that there is indications that show that most Forsaken might be at least slightly insane.
 * I'm not saying that it is a god of fear, I'm just saying that it is my best guess, and some things might point in that direction. Spoegefugl (talk) 20:23, August 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think God of Corruption and God of Fear would fit very well. The God of Fear is explained above. But I'd add another hint to that theory:
 * Arthas drove insane because he fears that his people will be killed by the Scourge. So his fear pushed him into the arms of the Lich King, maybe to distract the focus of all livings from him.
 * And a Fear God may be a good encounter in a raid ;)


 * The Corruption God could be the one acting in Cataclysm. He corrupts the Emerald Dream to distract Ysera. Somewhere in the future he'll distract Nozdormu and create the Infinite Dragonflight. And in the present time he distract Neltharion just to deal with Alexstrasza. So all 5 aspects are not able to help the World to stop the threat of an Old God. And the Titans won't come because Algalon told them everything is alright.
 * A very very difficult plan, but hey, we're talking about the Old Gods!--Numisel (talk) 20:59, October 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * N'Zoth seems to fit more as The Old God of Malice than corruption, seeing as he drove Deathwing to turn on everything and everyone he had ever cared about. Then again, The Old God of Insanity has a pretty darn nice ring to it and fits just as well. Though, going with the Chaos and Death motif my guess would be The Old God of Destruction. Quetzatoul (talk) 18:45, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The only Old God with a title is Yogg-Saron, the Old God of Death. If the Chaos label can be applied to all of them. I personally think that the Dragon Aspects were made to be direct counters to them, so we would have Death, Nightmares, some dark side of magic, possibly Cataclysms, and something that breaks timelines.-- 20:04, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Antithesis to the Dragon Aspects -C'Thun
Thrall refers to the element of earth as the element that represents stability several time in the books. That would make it a good antithesis for chaos. Quartermain, an Extraordinary Gentleman 20:53, 19 January 2012 (UTC)


 * That's great, I always assumed that, but had no real source for it. Thanks ;).--Lon-ami (talk) 21:10, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

A flaw in "Antithesis to the Dragon Aspects"
There is one thing I can't seem to put together. How could Malygos have a counterpart role in this with magic as his domain? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.


 * Assuming that the theory and its train of thought are correct, it would be something like the "disruption of magic", even though the theory looks for direct opposites as far as titles go. Magic and ley lines can do a lot of damage if left unchecked or abused.-- 05:39, 22 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Personal opinion:
 * There's 2 more Old Gods we haven't heard about yet: "No-magic" and "No-time". "No-magic" could be some sort of devourer of magic, and "No-time" could be a master of paradoxes. "No-magic" could look like a squid/jellyfish, and be responsible for the naga. "No-time" could be related with the Infinite dragonflight, having created them or just having indirectly generated them just to stop the paradoxes (making the Infinite dragonflight enemies of both time and no-time).
 * Just my ideas on them, to show they could make sense.--Lon-ami (talk) 11:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, think about it this way. If we are going to say that Earth represents foundation and order (something that is repeated by Thrall in "Lord of the Clans", "The Shattering" and "Twilight of the Aspects", then we have to look at what Magic and Time, represent to Azeroth.  What would be the result of the loss of them, or the loss of control of them.  From that we might even suspect that whichever old god wanted to destroy the Titans plan for magic succeeded when the Well of eternity was destroyed.


 * Personally, I think That it is an interesting theory, and that it makes a good deal of sense. We look at the old gods and they are trying to undo the order imposed by the Titans, Unmaking Life is death, Unmaking the solid world is chaos, unmaking the dream is nightmare, Unmaking Magic would be, perhaps plunging all of Azeroth in to the twisting neither. Unmaking time could be halting the flow, ending the world in dull boring stasis.


 * It's also possible that each of those Old Gods created the things which are being denied them now. the Titans did not create the world, they Ordered it.  Perhaps the physical earth, life, the dream time and magic were created by the Old Gods.  Then the Titans come in and take control of those things away and put the Aspects in as a barrier between each old god and their personal domain.
 * Quartermain, an Extraordinary Gentleman 19:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Im hearing very good discussion here. I like that. I think the reason I can see Nozdormu to have a counterpart is because, well Nozdormu's madness didn't just occur naturally. Something needed to have caused that, something that would want to undo the mortal achievements of Azeroth (The freeing of Thrall created their greatest mortal enemy (Durnholde Keep), Arthas killed many of the Nerubians and Faceless with his desent into madness (Culling of Strathlome) ) There are more examaples however was Blizzard planning what they had for Thrall back in BC? Maybe not maybe the instances are just a coincidence. But either way Nozdormu must have been corrupted by something more powerful then himself with the likes of time, something that wanted over his domain, an old god. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 20:29, 23 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Personal opinion: (again)
 * I think the Infinite dragonflight is a third force, like the Scourge, who would represent "Undeath" against "Life" and "Death". I always loved this theory, where the "Time War" would be 3 factions fighting each other.
 * However, this theory may come true. At End Time, we learn Murozond's goal is to prevent a terrible ending y forcing a bad ending instead, and I don't think the Old Gods want a bad ending when they can have a terrible ending.
 * How was Murozond born, then? Nozdormu's desperation to stop the Old Gods, no matter if Azeroth fell with them? Failed corruption by the Old Gods? Who knows.--Lon-ami (talk) 23:17, 23 January 2012 (UTC)


 * It's also possible that, taking care of time just got to his mind eventually and drove him mad, but that's a boring explaination. Anyhow I still think even with what you say he was likely corrupted, He's an aspect and one of the most caring and devouted servants of Azeroth. It's not farfetched that his spirit was strong enough that he could eventually resist their control but like i've said alot in bronze dragon conversations. Time is much to complicated. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 03:29, 24 January 2012 (UTC)