Talk:Church of the Holy Light

Orcs
Is it true that no Orcs have ever shown interest in the Church of the Light? Rolandius (talk) 11:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge. Never read or heard of an account of an orc, troll, or tauren showing any interest in the faith. Closest you'd get is a hand full of horde races joining the Argent Dawn which requires one to uphold the vitues and values of the holy light, even if you aren't an active practicer of the faith.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 11:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I was just wondering because it says that the Church of the Light would welcome any Horde that wanted to join.   Rolandius (talk) 12:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, in the words of Ragestorm, this is not a forum.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 14:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Everywhere on Azeroth?
"The Church of the Holy Light can be found just about everywhere on Azeroth."

I guess most of Kalimdor doesn't count as part of "everywhere". Unless someone can support the statement above, I'm going to change or remove it. -- Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 12:26 PM PST 13 Jun 2008

Citation added, although I should point out that yes there are paladins and priests in Kalimdor which are agents and members of the church.Baggins (talk) 19:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

LOL Now they are everywhere on Outland too. (talk - contr ) 10:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Tone
Most--if not all--of this article is written in an extremely conversational tone. It could stand to be heavily copy-edited, IMO. RobertM525 (talk) 09:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Possible Explanation of Belief Retcon?
I was reading this article and noticed the following:

"Some claim that the Third War was the best thing that could have happened to the Church. The Church finally gave up its old habits and started to change. Some of the younger priests suggested that the Church take this opportunity to rebuild itself, setting aside many of its older traditions and starting new ones. They claimed that the Church had strayed from the path of the Three Virtues and needed to pare back down to essentials. According to these younger priests, their elders had lost touch with the Light and it was time to reclaim that holy communion. There are rumors of a break within the Church itself, dating to about that time. It is said that the members are fighting amongst themselves about whether to cling to the old traditions or forge new ones. It didn't help that most of the Church's texts were lost and so people have been writing new ones — some of them writing about the same things but without comparing notes or checking sources. "

Could this be alluding to the shift from believing in God to becoming a non-theistic religion? I've been looking over the information for the Warcraft III retcon that the Church of the Holy Light is non-theistical despite the first two games clearly describing the Northshire clerics and others as being "in God's service." It doesn't seem to make any sense at all, outstide of Blizzard attempting to change the series' religious beliefs to something more alien and less likely to offend real people's beliefs. This info is the only thing I've seen that might address it in-universe.

Could the "break" have been the split between Holy Light followers that believed in God and ones that were non-theistical? Maybe the younger, more liberal priests cut out all of the belief in God and just kept the values and trappings of the old church. Does anyone else have any further information? Martin 05:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)mdwall


 * Could be I've always wondered that myself.Baggins (talk) 05:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Hrm. If there is a split between the Holy Light followers that believed in God and the ones that were non-theistical and the non-theistical ones are saying the "Church had strayed from the path of the Three Virtues and needed to pare back down to essentials. According to these younger priests, their elders had lost touch with the Light and it was time to reclaim that holy communion." then that means at one time the Church of the Holy Light was non-theistical to begin with it looks like and had created the Three Virtues. So this would not be a retcon, but instead a sort of reverse of the retcon that said Holy Light followers believed in God. Or "in-game", it would just be a natural occurrence where the belief system is in a swing in history going now back to the original "beliefs". Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 05:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This is all based on the idea that there is a "split" happening though right now. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 05:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually more like,they were non-theistical, started worshiping god, and became non-theistical again, that is if it meant anything (having to do with god at all). There was a reference in Manual of Monsters that could imply a god "cult" if read a certain way, which would fit this speculation to some degree. But the reference was vague and doesn't clearly specify if it was related to the Holy Light or not.Baggins (talk) 05:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay so you are saying it might be that they were non-theistical, started worshiping god, and became non-theistical again and so there is a split where the younger priests want to go back to the worshiping god belief? Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 05:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I suppose that's one possibility, no way to know for sure...Baggins (talk) 05:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay. Well make sure that user(s) who asked the question understands it as well in case they edit something out that should stay in an article. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 06:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Here at Wowwiki we present all information coming from official sources. That includes sources which may now be outdated but blizzard has never come straight out and said "this information is no longer true", thus they remain technicly valid in our eyes. Honestly (and this is just my opinion and off the record) it's a full retcon. In the current continuality, "God" never existed in warcraft. There are sure to be one or two other Bookkeepers who will disagree with me, but you know... 09:41, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * To be honest Warthok I think that's a fair assessement. I'm neutral on the issue personally, I neither confirm nor deny the existence of any said god. I do acknowledge though there are references that could be interpreted as as referring to "god" at least individuals who think there is a god, even if its not specifically confirmed. Stuff like the Holy Light "talking" to individuals and having its own sentience. Not said to be a god per se, but treated as if it is an entity.Baggins (talk) 10:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yea the RPGs contain snipets here and there that make me think they might have been trying to connect back to ideas that made the church what it was in warcraft I. 10:39, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Why is everyone talking about a retcon then if they are trying to connect back to ideas from Warcraft I? That would be more like a reversal of a retcon. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 10:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Then there are the draenei and Abbendis in World of Warcraft that makes claims that the Holy Light is sentient and gives out orders. Course Abbendis is being manipulated, but the fact she falls for it seems to imply there is some teachings out there that the Holy Light is "alive" and sentient creature of some sort. It seems priests and paladins believe in it. If she was grounded in the idea that it is only a philosophy rather than having a god, she would have probably not fallen for that the imposter's communication.Baggins (talk) 10:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Symbols
The first image represents a symbol seen on the hat of Archbishop Benedictus (among other places). The second shows a banner hanging in the Cathedral District of Stormwind City. Do these symbols have names? Do both represent the Church of the Holy Light? Egrem (talk) 17:57, 4 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The first one indeed represents the Light. The second one I am not sure about, but I assume that it just represents the district itself, as mages do not use a book as their flag anywhere else that their district (that I know of).-- 21:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

What to do with this can of worms?
I hate to be that guy, but this entire article is pretty much... redundant now; rooted nigh-on 100% in RPG material. What to do? Grissom (talk) 18:43, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * It definitely needs looking at. The Three Virtues are definitely canon as they're brought up elsewhere - although the wording of the article isn't. --Aerandul (talk) 18:55, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * If you find canon mentions of the Church itself, then add them.-- 20:55, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Lay priests
Hello! I am a role-player. I do not want this page changed in any way nor am I bringing anything into disputation, but can any of you give me a page number in the RPG books (and also a title :) ) where Lay Priests are mentioned by name? I am trying to base my guild off the organization of the Church in RPG books, but I am suspicious of this particular title. I know it has been mentioned here and on WoWWiki for years, but I am still a bit suspicious. Moorwhelp (talk) 20:30, 22 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Alliance Player's Guide, pg. 153. --Mordecay (talk) 20:40, 22 July 2015 (UTC)