Talk:War against Deathwing

Name
As the move thing said, I simply moved it to make it more inclusive, in the off chance that Deathwing eventually takes an active part against both factions. Though it still could use a better name. /shrug --TheUltimate (talk) 01:34, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, the template did say to discuss it first, before moving. I edited the template to be a little more clearer. 12:05, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know, I didn't notice the template until after. Which was why I moved it back. Deepest apologizes.--TheUltimate (talk) 12:21, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * No worries. 12:30, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Regardless of Deathwing's involvement or not, I still think "Cataclysm War" or "War of the Cataclysm" roll off the tongue more easily, in keeping with prior naming conventions. Somehow it's not enough of a total war to be the "Fourth War". Deepred (talk) 06:56, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Great Wars have, historically, been worldwide conflicts that may or may not be multisided, have involved conflict between the Alliance and Horde and other actors, and have also caused widespread destruction. I think the Fourth War is an apt title. Thio (talk) 21:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Curious: Would it be fine to drop (Cataclysm) from the title? It seems very unneeded as there are no other articles called Alliance-Horde war.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 01:15, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Background
How much detail should the background of the war go into? The war had been brewing from events as early as Vanilla WoW, and a simple "Varian declared war in the Battle for the Undercity" doesn't seem like it goes into enough detail. However, we obviously can't detail everything that led up to war, as that goes as far back as the First War. What sort of limit should be set? -- Fojar(talk) 07:58, July 6, 2010 (EST)
 * I threw together the scenario leading up to from Vanilla leading up to Cataclysm. (The vanilla BGs, how they were at peace until the Wrathgate), but the Cataclysm portion is still just a blurb. I think it's just going to stay like that until we actually know what happens.--TheUltimate (talk) 12:23, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

Possible Reasons why the Alliance was able to expand into Southern Barrens
Lieutenant Alverold Exploratory Fleet could have finished their scouting mission and returned at the same time as a Stormwind reinforcements and supplies fleet came to the barrens and add the forces Tiragarde Keep and with the Horde having only a little presence in the Southern Barrens it probably was not to hard to claim part of the southern Barrens. These are just ideas. Rimor Conscientia (talk) 17:17, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

Is King Magni dead?
Is King Magni dead? Thats my question. Rimor Conscientia (talk) 05:18, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * He was turned into a statue, that's about as dead as someone can get. If you want to rationalize it, Blizzard probably needed to kill off an Alliance faction leader to match the death of Cairne.AhotahThunderhorn (talk) 05:25, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, being turned into a statue seems rather explicitly NOT dead. There are, of course, other complications involved, but unlike Cairne there's the possibility (and a very likely one, I think) that he will eventually get better. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 06:52, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just like Zeratul said, he's not dead. He was petrified and consolidated into the Ironforge's Diamond Core. That means that if that fat old dwarf will actually do his homework about the titan tablets, or through some shamanistic/druidic magic, Magni might return;D 20:57, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Will this war also take place in Northrend and Outland?
Will there be fighting in Northrend and Outland? Or quests related to the war? Rimor Conscientia (talk) 17:13, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I know. This will only be Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms. I may be wrong. Gamerd (talk) 23:56, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * They said at Blizzcon they're not making any changes to Outland or Northrend beyond things like Archeology nodes and other miscellaneous changes due to game mechanic updates. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 07:02, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Have three years passed in game in World of Warcraft since Wrath of the Lich King?
I was wondering have three years really passed lore wise because I thought the events of World of Warcraft Cataclysm happened like a year after WOTLK in the game world of Azeroth. Because the article says three years have passed since Alliance and Horde forces first arrive on Northrend. Just wondering. Rimor Conscientia (talk) 23:04, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. It's set 10 years after the Battle of Mount Hyjal and 5 years after classic WoW, which means it's set 3 years after the start of Wrath of the Lich King. WoWWiki-Suzaku (talk) 07:37, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Tandred Proudmoore
Is Tandred Proudmoore really a commander for the Alliance forces. Correct me if I am wrong, but he has not appeared in-game, and neither the fleet of Kul Tiras. I the previous statement is right, I think he shouldn't be listed a a commander for the Alliance. Overlord Divine (talk) 17:47, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, Baradin's Warden have the tabard of Kul Tiras, so it's assumed that the Grand Admiral as a hand in some way in the war. Guyomeprime (talk) 22:29, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok. That i didn't know of. So perhaps you are right. Anyway, thanks for making it clear.Overlord Divine (talk) 09:09, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * An earlyish beta pic shows them in Kul Tiras tabards. I'm not sure if it's still the same with the latest build. Deepred (talk) 05:21, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have also reacently red on the Kul Tiras article that Tol Barad was claimed by them after the Second War, so that makes sense for the Baradin Watchers to have the Kul Tiras tabards.Overlord Divine (talk) 15:15, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Five years?
Why is it stated "Five years after the Battle for Mount Hyjal, the fragile truce between the Horde and Alliance had all but evaporated" in the article, when in the intro video of vanilla WoW it is stated "four years have passed since.."? Guyomeprime (talk) 02:11, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

Galen-controlled Stromgarde?
I noticed that Galen-controlled Stromgarde is one of the combatants in this war, while I know that Galen Trollbane is now a member of the Forsaken I have heard nothing of a Horde-Alliance battle over Stromgarde. So this someone's guess work or will the Forsaken claim apart of the Stromgarde? --Sairez (talk) 03:21, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone decided it would be a good idea to put every faction even loosely associated with the Horde or Alliance in the combatants section, even when they're completely uninvolved. I'm not really sure what the logic was in that. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 01:16, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that Sairez actually meant why is Galen listed under the Alliance, and not the Horde, since as Undead Forsaken he should be listed as Horde Commander. 14:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Galen is listed as a Horde commander and I was talking about seeing Galen-controlled Stromgarde as one the Horde forces. --Sairez (talk) 21:50, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * But Stromgarde itself isn't even really part of either side anymore; it's been controlled by the Syndicate since Vanilla. And even if you're talking about the kingdom, Galen ceased to control it when he was killed. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Malfurion is not an Alliance commander
Malfurion is neutral in Cataclysm. Wherever Horde chars meet him he's either neutral(Darn) or friendly (darkshore and hyjal). He doesn't give orders to kill anything that has anything to do with the Horde and is a member of Cenarion Circle. The fact that he's Tyrande's husband doesn't change anything. He's not an Alliance Commander in this War therefore he shouldn't be listed. 17:48, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * As he should be. Furion was in the Emerald Nightmare when the night elves joined the Alliance. He has no real alliegance to them beyond being a night elf, and not every night elf is in the Alliance (see: Cenarion Circle). Reign (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly aswell as the fact that Hammuul Runetotem is not listed as the Horde Commander either, evethough he's a Tauren, and actually one being marked with Thunderbluff tag. Yet he's more in Cenarion Circle so hopefully Thebardinblack will stop adding Malfurion to the page:P 18:12, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Camp Taurajo wasn't a massacre
Hi, I think that Ultimaton100’s edits to this page are biased and exaggerated. It went from:

“In the Southern Barrens Alliance forces have invaded the eastern lands while the Horde has mainatined control of the west. The Alliance has constructed a new military outpost to try to solidify their control of their new territory while the Horde has done the same to prevent further Alliance expansion. The central region between the two forts has become a war zone as the factions fight for control. The Alliance launched an attack on the peaceful village of Camp Taurajo, which ended in some civilian casualties. This act of perceived cruelty by the Alliance has stirred the Horde and bolstered their resolve. The Horde has begun efforts to drive the Alliance back as a result. The new Horde general made an example of General Hawthorne by assassinating him on the streets of the Battlescar. In the initial Horde counter-attack, Gann Stonespire leads an angry mob of Horde civilians to raid the dwarven digsites in Bael Modan. These raids led to the death Marley Twinbraid, son of General Twinbraid. The Horde also manages to blow up the dwarven fortress known as Bael'dun Keep. General Twinbraid finds the corpse of Weezil Slipshadow in the ruins of Bael'dun Keep and thinks it must have been the goblin workers in Frazzlecraz Motherlode who were responsible for the destruction at Bael Modan. He sends Alliance adventurers to kill every goblin miner they can find in the mine..”

to:

“	In the Southern Barrens Alliance forces have invaded the eastern lands while the Horde has mainatined control of the west. The Alliance has constructed a new military outpost to try to solidify their control of their new territory while the Horde has done the same to prevent further Alliance expansion. The central region between the two forts has become a war zone as the factions fight for control. The Alliance launched an attack on the peaceful village of Camp Taurajo, which ended in a massacre. This act of cruelty by the Alliance has bolstered Horde resolve. The Horde has begun to drive the Alliance back as a result. The new Horde general made an example of General Hawthorne, the general responsible for the Taurajo Massacre, by sending adventurers to ambush and kill him. In the initial Horde counter-attack, the Horde was able to destroy Bael Modan.”

It is an assumption, not a fact, that Hawthorne’s men did not obey his orders. Many of the Horde NPCs in Taurajo did manage to escape to Camp Una'fe. He says that he ordered it during the attack so he had to be there as the actual attack was occurring. And seeing as Hawthorne’s quest Clap’em in Irons imply that he’s a hardass who doesn’t tolerate insubordination, why would he permit it in an actual military operation? If the Alliance allowed civilians to escape, I would hardly call it a massacre. Also, I don't see why he removed the other things like General Twinbraid's lash out at the goblins. Or Gann Stonespires raids on the dwarven digsites.

I think you should undo his edits. (Sports72Xtrm (talk) 08:02, 22 March 2011 (UTC))

The Great Merge: A Broke world, breaking in war
Well I see many affiliated or related conflicts since the start of the second arc of the comic. May I have to list them and other preludes for the organization of the new article: Preludes: Initial Alliance-Horde tensions and "Could War"Immeasurably Twilight's Hammer Insurgency - Is the first prelude to this all about (New Council of Tirisfal and allies VS Twilight's Hammer clan) Battle for the Undercity and Alliance-Horde de jure in war War agaisnt the Nightmare The Conflict is imminent: Elemental Unrest The Shattering: Prelude to the Cataclysm Shattering: A world crying in apocalypse and blood...: Alliance-Horde war War against Deathwing
 * Alliance-Horde War in Lordaeron
 * Invasion of Gilneas

This lists what the article have to describe. Well it is immeasurably BIG... So to don't have a immense article with I propose: 1 - Put a "complementar" template for this article, relating to War against Deathwing and break up Alliance-Horde War in Lordaeron (as Lordaeron turn into "Lordae", probably the major place of the war, due to the number of conflicts and factions involved)) to short it. 2 - Improve "War against Deathwing" and create other lacking articles. (I forgott the rest... I have to go to bed, may I finish to state here later...) Gabrirt (talk) 06:44, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Thoughts
Some comments about the article? (Gabrirt (talk) 00:04, October 16, 2010 (UTC))

Where is the soruce on this that it is called 'War in Cataclysm'? Gorvar (talk) 12:47, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

What is the difference between this and the elemental invasion article? Saberd of The Shattered Sun (talk) 17:47, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * This covers the "Deathwing and his minions" vs "Horde, Alliance and co." conflict in Cataclysm, while elemental invasion is only the pre-world cataclysm events.Overlord Divine (talk) 18:17, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

And it'll probably need a better name. I moved it to Elemental War, after the Elemental Invasion and the general fact that the elements play a large role in pretty much everything.--TheUltimate (talk) 18:24, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

Affiliated wars
The Alliance-Horde war isn't a war inside this one? Shoud it be moved to here? After may I'm underestimating the access, but this article is few accessed or it's just a bad impression? (Gabrirt (talk) 00:48, 12 March 2011 (UTC))


 * I believe that there should not be two article for what is called Elemental War and Alliance-Horde War.
 * Beside, I don't feel the Elemental Unrest is a part of this war but more an introduction event.
 * In one word: Merge!
 * 13:08, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Merged.
I did my best to merge this with Alliance-Horde war. Change to the name to Cataclysm War and we should be fine for now. (talk contribs) 22:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Naming
✅

Suggestion

 * Cataclysm War


 * War against Deathwing


 * Cataclysm Wars


 * Cataclysm events


 * Cataclysm Battles


 * Cataclysm storyline

Comments
Send forth your suggestion for this article name.

12:00, 22 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The contents of this article, is not the Elemental wars listed on the introduction of this article, rather it's a list of event that happen during the cataclysm.
 * This article actually lists 2 different wars, the Alliance-Horde War started in the Battle of Undercity, and the Old God-Defenders of Azeroth War, so i also think we should make a new article just for the Alliance-Horde War that started in the Battle of Undercity, trough Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria, till it's end in the undefined future.--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As the war is now over... shall we move the page as decided?--LemonBaby (talk) 23:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * All sounds good here. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 00:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * On the last cinematic of Dragon Soul, Thrall states the Cataclysm is over... so I think it would be best to have Cataclysm somewhere in the title of the war article. 23:00, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Good point. But I am not sure whether Thrall was referreing to the final cataclysm spell Deathwing tried to cast to destroy Azeroth or not. But Cataclysm War or something like that sounds fine to me and more appropriate.--LemonBaby (talk) 23:06, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * How about, The "War between Azeroth and the Cataclysm", the "War to end the Cataclysm", the "War against the Old Gods' servants", the "War to end all Wars", the "War that shall not be named", or the "War of the Worlds... of Warcraft". 23:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * We're coming up with all these speculative names, when I think "The Cataclysm" works, sounds just fine, and seems to be canon. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:16, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The war against the Old Gods and their servents rages far longer. This war was the first and only offensive of Deathwing and his forced. He tried to gather as many forces as possible (Faceless Ones, Air and Fire whether, Twilights Hammer, Dragons etc) and launched an attack against any other major force on the planet. He failed, but the war against the old gods is far from over. This war was against Deathwing who tried to bring the final Cataclysm to Azeroth to destroy everything. So respective to the War against the Lich King it should be the War against Deathwing...--LemonBaby (talk) 23:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I suppose until they give it an official name, that could work... it's better than what it currently is. 23:33, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

New approach
I put all the Alliance-Horde related conflicts to the Alliance-Horde war and removed the Zandalari incident. So now the page describes the conflict between Deathwing, his minions and the Defenders of Azeroth. Since the War during Wrath of the Lich King was called "War against the Lich King" I suggest to rename this page "War against Deathwing". Is there still a need for a seperate page called "Cataclysm events/storyline/War/Wars"? We could still create one for each expansion. Like a Vanilla, BC and Wrath events/storyline page. --LemonBaby (talk) 08:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Agreed for the name, I add it in the suggestion just up there.
 * As for an expansion storyline article, that would be nice, but not too expanded maybe or else it would be a double use with the article it cites.
 * 09:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Is there realy a need for the whole command structure of the Alliance and the Horde? I don't want to start an edit war, but when someone wants to read about the Horde commend structure for example he should do that on the Horde page. Listening Gobber or Knight-Lord Bloodvalor is kind of ridiculous.--LemonBaby (talk) 20:40, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed, we just need those that are the leaders, and those that actually battle old god forces in the Cataclysm expansion.--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:20, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Commanders
The following characters don't command anything, thats why they were removed: Unless there are arguments to reinclude them, I will remove them.--LemonBaby (talk) 13:26, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Malorne
 * Broll Bearmantle <- has only a cameo as a sidekick
 * Seer Galekk <- only a member of the earthen ring
 * Earthmender Narvra
 * Derth Firesinger
 * Felora Firewreath
 * Aggra <- She is only Thralls mate and not a commander during the war
 * Erunak Stonespeaker
 * Farseer Tooranu
 * Caretaker Movra
 * Seer Kormo
 * The whole earth giants of therazene aren't commanders
 * Duke Hydraxis <- He doesn't even appear in game anymore!
 * Onyxia <- The good girl is a dead abomination unable to speak and was reanimated for 3minutes before we killed her again. Why is she a commander during that war?
 * Ultraxion <- A powerful creation that has nothing to say
 * Morchok <- A "soldier" not a commander
 * Iso'rath <- making nightmares and eating people... super commander
 * Erudax <- one of the greatest lieutenants of Deathwing.. but only a lieutenant.
 * Avatar of Soggoth <- Alive for 10minutes? And only the avatar. It's like saying the avatar of Sargeras is a leader of the BL
 * Hydrius <- hovering around for one quest doesn't make him a commander
 * Skullcrusher the Mountain <- Just a weapon with no brain
 * Hagara the Stormbinder <- loyal to the Twilights Hammer Clan but not one of their leaders
 * Asira Dawnslayer <- she is a assasin working for the Cult. Not a commander

My response to comanders

 * Iso'rath he is a commander of the old gods and a huge tentacle monster
 * Ultraxion is one of the last twilight dragons and the strongest then technically that makes him a commander
 * Avatar of Soggoth because Soggoth is sealed and the avatar is the only representation of him in the azzeroth and that makes him a commander
 * Onyxia like her mother she's undead but her mother can reproduce and so she can and she is the daughter of deathwing and that makes her a commander
 * General Grimaxe is the leader of the twilight hammer's dark iron dwarfs
 * Aggra is kinda like secound in comand plus i didn't put her there but she's still important

For Lemon Baby Ultimatex

Please provide a source for follwoing statements (questtext or otherwise): Keep in mind: Beeing important lore character doesn't mean that you can act as a commander on the battlefield. That in mind: Malorne runs around and fought some elementals. He is important. But he doesn't lead. And thats what this section should be about.--LemonBaby (talk) 16:21, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Iso'rath he is a commander of the old gods <- beeing huge doesn't mean he is intelligent. Prove that he commands anyone)
 * Onyxia can reproduce. Onyxia doesn't command anyone. She is alive again for 3minutes. You can't say she is a commander
 * Aggra is kinda like secound in comand
 * Ultraxion <- beeing strong doesn't make him a commander. He is a puppet.
 * Also decide: Avatar of Soggoth or Soggoth. Can't be both.

Cairne Bloodhoof, Magni Bronzebeard
Should we include them both die should we.

Ultimatex
 * No, they died before the War even startet. They are not part of the war.--LemonBaby (talk) 16:21, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually. Cairne combated Gahz'rilla and Prince Sarsarun. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 18:51, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Soggoth
Just so it's here: Soggoth is dead. In The Battle for Darkshore the Twilight's Hammer is said to have "only managed to resurrect but a remnant of dread Soggoth," which is the Avatar of Soggoth. So: Soggoth himself is dead, and his avatar only appears at the very end of the quest chain and is promptly killed. So no, Soggoth shouldn't be listed as a commander, because he was never in charge of anything; it was all the Twilight's Hammer's doing. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Removing Commanders
I'm going to remove any commanders that don't have any connection to the war against the old god minions, since someone deleted my earlier work i'll post the list here with reasons:


 * AvH conflict iss not part of the elemental wars
 * Fallen Prince
 * &dagger;
 * &dagger;
 * Council of the 3 hammers is already a leader no need to repost it's members(it only increasse the list needlessly)
 * Useless repetition
 * Participant but not a commander
 * Moving the following because they took the position after their death
 * Moving him because he's subservient to the Skywall
 * Moving Alexstraza and these because she doesn't rule over all the defenders
 * Being of the same race doesn't say she is servant to azshara
 * Adding the stone lords because they are therazane commanders
 * Fallen Prince
 * &dagger;
 * &dagger;
 * Council of the 3 hammers is already a leader no need to repost it's members(it only increasse the list needlessly)
 * Useless repetition
 * Participant but not a commander
 * Moving the following because they took the position after their death
 * Moving him because he's subservient to the Skywall
 * Moving Alexstraza and these because she doesn't rule over all the defenders
 * Being of the same race doesn't say she is servant to azshara
 * Adding the stone lords because they are therazane commanders
 * Participant but not a commander
 * Moving the following because they took the position after their death
 * Moving him because he's subservient to the Skywall
 * Moving Alexstraza and these because she doesn't rule over all the defenders
 * Being of the same race doesn't say she is servant to azshara
 * Adding the stone lords because they are therazane commanders
 * Moving the following because they took the position after their death
 * Moving him because he's subservient to the Skywall
 * Moving Alexstraza and these because she doesn't rule over all the defenders
 * Being of the same race doesn't say she is servant to azshara
 * Adding the stone lords because they are therazane commanders
 * Moving him because he's subservient to the Skywall
 * Moving Alexstraza and these because she doesn't rule over all the defenders
 * Being of the same race doesn't say she is servant to azshara
 * Adding the stone lords because they are therazane commanders
 * Being of the same race doesn't say she is servant to azshara
 * Adding the stone lords because they are therazane commanders
 * Being of the same race doesn't say she is servant to azshara
 * Adding the stone lords because they are therazane commanders
 * Adding the stone lords because they are therazane commanders


 * Any problems say here--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:37, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The Neferset are still a force in and of themselves, so Tekahn should still be listed. Alexstrasza may not directly command every single red dragon, but seems to do a fair bit of leading; enough that she should be listed. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say about Cho'gall, but he was leading the Twilight's Hammer for most of the major events of the war until his death, so he should definitely be included. I'm also leaning towards removing Nefarian, because he wasn't so much leading anything as he was sitting in Blackrock Mountain continuing his experiments. I'm also thinking about removing the "Old Gods" header and putting Deathwing at the top, since the Old Gods themselves never make an appearance and everyone else is, ultimately, subservient to Deathwing to some degree. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually can we reason with Alexstrasza being the Dragon Queen she rules over Ysera, Kalecgos, and Nozdormu?[[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 20:42, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Dark most of those i'm just moving around... and yeah she is the dragonqueen we can work with that.--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:50, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

War against the Zandalari
Should we make a separate article for the war fought against the troll empires during Cataclysm? (talk contribs) 19:18, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 19:22, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That was easy. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 19:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Defenders of Azeroth
I think we should fuse the alliance and horde sections into the defenders of azeroth section, because when it came to the old gods(which this article is about) they were a united force(also see if everything doesn't get squished by the ginormous infobox)--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:48, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it's for the best that we do what's in the Outland war article. We put Horde and Alliance into one section but keep it very well distinguished they never worked together. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 20:55, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * OK but we don't really need to list every faction leader and every nation just those that are actual participants of this war--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:58, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Horde means the Horde. We shouldn't need to specify their nations. I'll take care of it real quick. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs)
 * No worries i've done it--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:04, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Left the Wildhammer and Dragonmaw because they are fighting the twilight hammer while fighting each other in the twilight highlands.
 * Put every alliance commander under varian and garrosh. hope that's not a problems--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:05, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I thought the same. Done. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 21:06, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry im quick to jump onto things. You could change it back to your revision if you like [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 21:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Nah don't worry i've already corrected it also your alliance and horde after is better.
 * Is there any missing commanders? mind they must have lead a war against the Old gods minions.--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:15, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there any other alliance/horde subfaction that's prominent that they fought against old god minions?--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:17, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I think we should put instead of Alexstrasza as the leader we can put the Dragon Aspect or all of dragon aspect's names together?--Ultimatex (talk) 11:46, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Alexstraza is the Dragon queen she rules over all dragons--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:38, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Activity
A lot of activity on this page today... hope I don't have to lock it down for some edit wars I see taking place. 21:09, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * You mean that single person? [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 21:10, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes... I suppose it is one person causing it, isn't it... First time I've seen him communicate through a talk page too. 21:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If you mean ultimatex, him sticking Ozumat is getting annoying--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:16, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Is Ozumat even a sapient being?[[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 21:20, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Alright we should do something about this. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 21:26, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As far as we know, No... which is why it's really annoying--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:27, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A warning has been issued. If this persists, please let me know on my talk page, so I'll get that you've got a message banner. I'm not really paying attention to this article at the moment. 21:35, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Alright, thank you. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 21:36, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * TY--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:38, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Horde and Alliance aren't working together
They don't work together since the wrath gate incident and in the elemental war there are four factions alliance,horde,neutral faction and old'gods forces and they are battling in the twilight highlands and other zones they don't work anymore garrosh hate's varian and varian hate's him to.

And sorry for Ozumat,Onyxia and the others....

Who agrees to split it in four factions? Ultimatex (talk) 10:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Im sorry, what? [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 21:47, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * When it comes to each other they are not working together, but in this case they stop working against each other to fight the old gods minions, like what we did to the war in outlands article, we also did it to reduce the size of the infobox(it was eating the whole page), it is also already noted in the introduction of this article and the name of the side(defenders of azeroth) that the former is the case--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:51, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I get what you're saying but in outlands article they worked together then but since the wrath gate incident you know, if we split in we will have more info but i i know what you are saying Ashbear160, i still don't know if we should, well see —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.


 * They never really worked together in Outland either. But they were united by the Shat'ar or in this case the Red Dragonflight to combat the Greater threat to the world ( or worlds ).[[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 22:08, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Depends on certain cases, in hyjal and firelands the horde and alliance "outsourced" the leadership of their armies to the cenarion circle, in vashjir they help each other free themselves from naga slavery with the Earthen ring kinda leading the pack, and twilight highlands is a warfront for the alliance and horde, but when it came to old gods the earthen ring took most of the reins.--Ashbear160 (talk) 22:13, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

How come it is split in four factions in war against the Lich King but we can't split it here Ultimatex (talk) 11:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm going to move some stuff around in that article--Ashbear160 (talk) 22:18, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Only put leaders that actually comanded anything against the old gods, putting just because they are the leaders of subfactions in the factions is not entirely realistic--Ashbear160 (talk) 22:32, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't recall seeing Rexxar. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 23:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He appeared in Orgrimmar during the Elemental Invasion. That's the extent of his appearances in Cataclysm. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:42, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * How disappointing. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 23:45, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Not all Black Dragons helped Deathwing
When I was in Dragon Soul, I noticed that there was still Black Wrymrest Protectors (albeit dead). These Black Dragons still retained the 'protector' in their name, this means that not all of the Black Dragonflight was fighting for the Old Gods or Deathwing. This is similair to how there was Blue Protectors in Wrath of the Lich King. Should this be seen as notable on the article or the 'Black Dragonflight' article? --Illidarí (talk) 14:24, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

War against "War against"
This critically ironical title to my section explains a bit, but see more explanation: I'm proclaiming a War against the term "War against". The ones whom agree with me can stay within my War against, but the ones whom oppose me will also stays with (")War against(") as well. Ironical? Paradoxical? This could be just the beginning if I choose to go further...

The reason about the first "War against" is simple: The War against the Lich King is an official name only because it was stated in a Cataclysm video and is so justifiable. Also the Scourge was an isolated faction with mindless creatures that mostly can't reason, witch explains (only a bit) the name, and also the name stated in the video can be pointed doubtful about the intention of state the official War name and maybe about point of view as well, as it subsequently states "The proud defenders of Azeroth (...)" as the narrator maybe speaking in their point of view. At last, despite this, I can't go against an official source at this situation anyway. But this exception can't be taken as rightful precedent. And the other three wars? The Twilight cultists, Naga and corrupted Dragonkin calls really this war "War against Deathwing"? Any of you know if Blizzard WILL state an official name? My propose is to give an mor impartial name to these wars until an official statement comes out (even accidentally). So there are my proposes:


 * War against Deathwing
 * War of the Shattering
 * War of Second Sundering
 * War of Twilight
 * War of the Cataclysm (my favorite)
 * Deathwing's return (my less rated)


 * War against the Nightmare (I don't know if this one have an official source)
 * War of the Emerald Nightmare

This one is different; I wanna make a system of uprisings. War against the Zandalari I can explain more doubts later. The End; for now —The preceding unsigned comment was added by. 06:11, 3 February 2012
 * Troll uprising (concept)
 * Hakkari uprising
 * First Amani uprising
 * Zandalari uporising
 * Zul'Aman uprising or Second Amani Uprising
 * Gurubashi uprising


 * No. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 19:50, 5 February 2012 (UTC)


 * "No."? Isn't it a considerably poor response? I suggested to stop the unofficial using the "War against" term due to its lack of impartial point of view. And I even suggested new names for the articles that erroneously use it.Gabrirt (talk) 22:58, 8 February 2012 (UTC)


 * No. You can not fix an arbitrary name with another arbitrary name, especially when the suggested alternatives are worse.-- 23:04, 8 February 2012 (UTC)


 * What he said. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 00:19, 9 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Worse? And why? Didn't I said the problems of stating a war in a one-sided point of view in a wiki that should be neutral? War against the Lich King counts becouse is an official name but and the others? Any Wowpedia admin or knowledge master can at least anwser my questions? I'm even suspecting that like Invasion of Outland, will not be released an official name and I have three or more motives to state that makes more sense call this war War of the Cataclysm or War of the Shattering.Gabrirt (talk) 00:58, 17 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Don't make those pages. There is no reason to change this page's name, unless it is to an official name.-- 01:01, 17 February 2012 (UTC)


 * And my considerations don't deserve to get an answer? I STATED AN LOGICAL MOTIVATION to change the name of the page. When you say "There is no reason", its look like that you are running from the issue that I stated; trying to give an answer without the answer.Gabrirt (talk) 05:14, 17 February 2012 (UTC)


 * No they don't, its not worth the time to make a whole topic and vote to make an unoffical name even worse, no offence. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 06:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The fact of one or another people don't like the name don't make my topic unworthy. Also why everyone started voting when the name was "Elemental War" (a name better than any annoyingly recurring "War against" name) and not vote this proposal? Also why any WoW player (that is reading this) don't try to use CD ask #3 to get the answer of the name of this War?Gabrirt (talk) 06:32, 17 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It is possible change an arbitrary name with logic: a name of a event should/usually reflect something notable that happened in. The Shattering was the major consequence of the start of this war and because of this, I think that War of the Shattering name is just more logical. "War against" is an strange, partial name that shouldn't be putted as name of any war unless officially stated. At the end of accounts no member of the Old Gods' forces be corrupted Dragonkin, cultist, Naga or elemental allies call this War against Deathwing. 18:45, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Where to put...
There were problems with Aedelas Blackmoore, Infinite Dragonflight, Murozond... Well, okay they weren´t commanding anyone but they were important during this war (even if they appeard "only" in a book or in a dungeon) so where they should be put in? There aren´t here nor on the page of old gods forces.

So and tell me whom did Wrathion, Nobundo, N'Zoth, Sintharia, bosses from instances... and others characters who did almost nothing commanded? I would say that it is the same as with Blackmoore for example. So, let´s hear it!--Mordecay (talk) 21:09, 9 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I really love these one word answers, ahem. No-where. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 21:10, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That is not answer, why no-where? And please, if you have nothing to tell...

I am waiting for decent answer.--Mordecay (talk) 21:20, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * They didn't command they just fought as soldiers, do you want to list every soldier here? Oh and we have no reason to believe the infinite are working with the old gods Nozdormu said he worked hard to prevent a worse end time, why would he work with them. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 21:22, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Every notable soldier as are those who I listed, yea exactly!--Mordecay (talk) 14:37, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Nozdormu states in Twilight of the Aspects that the infinites are working for the Old Gods. To answer your question of "why," it's because the Old Gods' armageddon is better than whatever other armageddon he saw, so he's helping them bring about their version of the end of the world to prevent the worse one. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:31, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh Nozdormu, you and your hard to discuss timeliness and endless retcon. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 21:33, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought Murozond was bringing about an independent end of the world, to prevent the version seen in Twilight of the Aspects. I'd blame the Old Gods just using him by twisting his desire to avoid his inevitable death, but that "true End Time" speech makes me question it.-- 21:51, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Anub'arak's line "Never thought i'd be free of him" comes to mind. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 21:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Main Image
I like the current image used, but I think this one symbolizes the fight between life and death more.  (talk contribs) 06:08, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Undos
Is there a particular reason this page got 7 undoes in a row? Xporc (talk) 22:11, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Is there an edit war between Gabrirt and MaxKeyboard?-- 22:30, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, I suppose that I have to explain my changes. So: The unwritten battles that are listed in the battle section of the infoxbox existed. They are just... unwritten. The Cleanup template was broking the article, so I resolved take it out until some wikifing specialist could readd it correctly. Ancient guardians and Demigods are not factions, so I moved them to "forces". The Rockpool tribe worships and are loyal to him, despite being not his direct servants. I changed "elementals" lo "loyalists" because of non-elemental servants of the Elemental Lords, like the Druids of the Flame, Galak tribe and others.  is the one who commands the defense of the Wyrmrest Temple and  and  were present when  faced the  on the Horde Twilight Highlands storyline. MaxKeyboard also removed other people that made part of the war. I hope that instead of removing and undoing recklessness, you start explaining your thoughts and being more careful when editing and/or removing content. 19:30, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Well to be honest Garbrit, while I appreciate your work on the various wars of Warcraft, you can be sometimes a bit annoying with those NPC templates of yours :p Xporc (talk) 19:41, 28 June 2016 (UTC)