Talk:Dragonmaw clan

Leader
Nekros was never a leader of the Dragonmaw Clan, although the version on the WoW site states this. Zuluhed the Whacked was in fact the leader of the Dragonmaw from at least the beginning of the Second War to the Clan's destruction. Nekros was a Warlock that Zuluhed put in charge of controlling the dragons (since the Demon Soul responded better to Warlock magic than Shamanistic ritual) and as such his narrative was the main Orcish one in the Day of the Dragon, leading to this misconception.

In 'Rise of the Horde'
Ner'zhul specifically mentioned the Dragonmaw when he first tried to rally the orc clans, implying that they existed long before the Dark Portal was opened. But as of the release of BC, we haven't heard about 'dragons' on Draenor other than the nether-warped blacks. The name could refer to another draconic creature; netherwyrms, perhaps? -- Lex Blue
 * I actually caught that reference too, as I'm about half way through the book. It would seem that there were definitely wyrms on Draenor prior to the end of Warcraft II.--Sky (t · c · w) 21:10, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
 * When building the dark portal they say that they had never seen the creature on top of it, the dragon head came from the vision Medivh gave Gul'dan, and they say that the cloaked figures are unknown too... Is this an error? I thought they figures were Deathwing and post-warlock convertion Ner'zhuls...(see page 344 in RotH)--Sandwichman2448 21:59, 9 April 2007 (EDT)


 * My personal opinion? I think Titans and possibly other space faring races have previously seeded Draenor sometime in millenias past. We already know Titans seeded much of the universe as stated in Warcraft III manual, though its never have been specific which worlds exactly, with the exception of Azeroth. However, look at the amount of life shared between both planets? Wolves have existed on both worlds, even before Orcs crossed over to Azeroth (although they brought over bigger varieties such as Worgs). Scorpions, Squirrels, and other small criters exist on both worlds. Elephantine creatures exist on both worlds. Both worlds have their own version of raptors, wyverns, hydras, and Basilisks, etc. Both worlds have humanoid lobster species. Both worlds have gazelle like species. Plus its probably worth mentioning that both worlds have major humanoid species with essentially basically the overall same physical features, that can procreate to create half-orcs.


 * Both worlds share elementals that speak Kalimag (although one was evil and the others, "spirits" seem benevolent). We even know of a forest of ancients that once existed on the world sometime in the centuries past, before Cenarions ever established outposts in the world from a certain quest line in the game.
 * I've heard there are even some quests that hint at Old Gods, and Qiraji influence on Draenor as well.


 * As for Dragonmaw? I'm pretty sure they were it was said that they existed on Draenor before orcs came to Azeroth in Warcraft III manual anyways, with no explanation. Also at one time there were supposed to be more dragonflights than the five we know about, its possible that there might have been some on Draenor at one time... But who knows?


 * Speaking of other clans, what about Blackrock clan? Blackrock mountain existed before the Orcs came to Azeroth, and yet so did Blackrock orc clan. I find that to be somewhat stranger, :).Baggins 22:11, 9 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Golden is called on at the last miniute so to say. She has no time to recearch or edit. I feel bad for her, but still dislike her work. She does not have the 'Knaak'.-- 18:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

To Baggins' remark about Blackrock Mountain: I think Blackrock Mountain was so named because the Blackrock clan took up residence there. Before then, it was just some old pile of rocks in the middle of the mountains.

~ Peregrine

Reguarding the Blackrock Clan and Blackrock mountain, the similarity in name was a coincidence. Ogrim Doomhammer took it as a sign of good fortune. Noted in the Tides of Darkness Novel. --Invin Dranoel (talk) 08:54, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Origin of the name = speculation?
How is it speculation? "Speculation" implies that I am voicing a theory with no solid evidence or grounding to back it up. All "Origin of the name?" is is just some interesting, factual, tidbits.~ Peregrine

I don't really even think the origin oddness is at all a problem. the point is: the name is cool and awsome. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.

Nek'rosh "Skullcrusher"??
Is there any in-game or lore evidence that Nek'rosh inherited his father's titular name? If not, then 'Skullcrusher' should be removed from his name.--Djaevlenselv 18:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Skullcrusher is not an affectation, it is the name of the "family" as it were. Just like Orgrim Doomhammer's title/last name was passed down from father to son for generations, so we can assume Skullcrusher was. ~ Peregrine


 * Why would you assume this Peregrine? Again, I am asking for in-game or lore evidence. I have not read 'Rise of the Horde' so you'll have to tell me: Were any of Telkar's ancestors also named Doomhammer? And did any of them not wield the actual 'Doomhammer'? Because if either of these is not the case, then isn't it every bit as possible that they took their title/surname from the weapon and not the other way around? Now, the 'Doomhammers' may be a particular case, as it is possible, even if my reasoning is accepted, that the hammer was passed down in the family so long that adopting its name as a title might have been second nature and so become akin to a surname.


 * What makes me think that all of these are 'titles' rather than family names is a number of things: 1) All of the names in question are in Common and not Orcish making them sound more like titles. 2) A number of highly prolific orcs whom you'd expect to have their full names revealed are never portrayed with last names including Ner'zhul, Gul'dan and Durotan, making it likely that these are in fact titles that are taken by individuals after specific accomplishments. Again the 'Doomhammers' may be an exception for the reasons I explained above. 3) My final and strongest argument. No less than three orcs are clear evidence to the theory I present: Kilrogg Deadeye was named so on account of having lost his eye, it is a title, not an inherited name. Kargath Bladefist 'earned the sobriquet "Bladefist" after he cut off his own hand when he reached the station of grunt, replacing it with a deadly scythe', it is a title, not an inherited name. Grom Hellscream was named because of his battlecry. While not stated explicitly, it is strongly implied in Lord of the Clans, page 133: '...and Thrall realized that Grom Hellscream had gotten his name for a very good reason'. Again, it is a title, not an inherited name.--Djaevlenselv 11:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Bad Speculation in main article
Under the "World of Warcraft" section, it says that the remaining dragonmaw orcs are likely by the side of Neltharion the Earth-Warder. I am deleting it for two reasons:

1) I WOULD just change it for this, but right now Neltharion is Deathwing the Destroyer, he is no longer the Earth-Warder.

2) This has absolutely no basis in fact or even hinted-at facts, the only evidence we have that Deathwing may still be alive and operating are a few obscure references to "The Master" by Lady Sinestra.

~Peregrine

Was it really Dragonmaw clan?
I have a really good question. Considering the Dragonmaw clan was native to Draenor, that must mean that Dragons existed there as well as in Azeroth. Or did they form that clan during the wars against the alliance?

Perhaps cratures such as nether rays inspired the term of "dragon" in outland. Wyverns may have also been native to both worlds since the Mag'har and Mok'nathal camps have enormus wyverns as flying transport mounts. Their size implies that a rather larger breed of wyverns alredy lived in Draenor since wyverns or other animals were never domesticated in the Horde. Nor would there have been time to breed or domesticate them considering the very recent discovery of the Mag'har and Mok'nathal. User:Baldr 9-17-2007


 * Or it was a mistake.-- 00:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As to the wyverns, they cold be a gift from the Horde or just rexxar.-- 16:32, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes but if you visit Mag'har or Mok'nathal villages, their wyverns are enormus, so there had to be wyverns in draenor since the horde doesn't domesticate. Baldr 18:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Domesticate no, but they do have an 'alliance' with them. It would not be too hard to say "please sit over here on this new planet".-- 19:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

But then how come that a Mok'nathal wyvern is bigger than my kodo? Baldr 00:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Some girls/wyverns are bigger than others.-- 00:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes but again, how come they are bigger than my KODO!!! Which is BIG! And unless nether rays were the termed as "dragons" in Draenor, the wyvern is the only canidate for inspiring the Dragonmaw name. Baldr 23:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Do not rule out error. I'm not sure this is, but it may be wrong. If it doesn't fit it doesn't fit.-- 00:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Meh... it's not our choice to name clans... anyway... SOMETHING must have been in Draenor to inspre the term "dragon" Baldr 00:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Or, you know, Blizzard could have just made a mistake... It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen occasionally. *shakes fist at rogues and warlocks* Anyways, this could just be one of those rare cases where they messed up. ~Peregrine Faithbearer 19:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

We know the clan existed before the Dark Portal, We know it was also called The Dragonmaw, what if the humans just named them that, (due to their enslavement of the Red Dragonflight) and their name in orcish was something completely different? -Rovdyr 16:13, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

they were dragonmaw before they even knew about humans Baldr 03:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Indeed. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 18:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * "And unless nether rays were the termed as "dragons" in Draenor, the wyvern is the only canidate for inspiring the Dragonmaw name."
 * Lol, wyverns were originally from Azeroth, and are part dragon.Baggins (talk) 00:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The Dragonmaw Clan and Drakonids
Has anyone else wondered what was up with the Dragonmaw Clan and Drakonids? Zuluhed transforms into one mid-fight. The Dragonmaw Ascendants, before 2.1 hit, were classified as humanoids. Or'kaos the Insane, a humanoid that resembles a Drakonid, roams a satellite island of the Netherwing Ledge. Drakonids also patrol one terrace of the Black Temple. It appears (most directly from Zuluhed) that the Dragonmaw orcs are capable of transforming themselves into these humanoid dragons, but by what method exactly? I guess we'll never know. --Presea 00:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it is the same as how Dragonspawn are made. Good question.-- 00:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I observed a group fighting Zuluhed, and he cries out for the blessing of Illidan and becomes transformed. I guess this can be done on the spot.  Most of the Drakonids found in Outland, then, appear to be in Illidan's service (patrolling the Black Temple and Netherwing Ledge to protect his interests), though Or'kaos' affiliation is unknown and Maxnar probably has no affiliation.  Do you guys think this speculation - Illidan's apparent ability to transform the Dragonmaw into Drakonids, and that some Drakonids used to be Dragonmaw orcs - should be added to Illidan's page and the Drakonid page?  --Presea 03:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, my theory about his unwitting servitude to the Old Gods made it into the Illidan page... I'd wait for an admin yea/nay before you go ahead, but it should be fine. ~Don't say Retnoob, say Peregrine 02:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

For the Horde?
So, the Dragonmaw seem to be rejoining the Dragonmaw clan, but how does this sit with other factions? Having followed an interesting discussion on a forum about this, it was clear to me that the Horde's ambassador at Wyrmrest Temple is kept outside the door (even after 30 years). So how will Alexstraza not lash out at Thrall/Garrosh over this? Wolfstorm11 (talk) 22:23, May 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Um... alpha still, so we don't know anything, and anything known should not be discussed here. 22:31, May 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah, my bad. I was under the impression somehow there was already some official information released on Twin Peaks (I could still swear reading about it in a blue post...). Found the source. Wolfstorm11 (talk) 22:33, May 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * There was a blue post...-- 22:39, May 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Right.. a blue post saying their involvement, but nothing else... to know the hordes reaction or the red queen's reaction would be NDA since it was not been released (and if one finds out in alpha). Unless I'm wrong, cause the linked source doesn't show anything else. 22:47, May 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * No, I was merely trying to invoke a discussion on the matter; nothing is known yet save for the location of the Horde's ambassador -outside- Wyrmrest Temple. Though if that's not allowed either, Ill cease the attempt. Wolfstorm11 (talk) 23:21, May 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * You are Wolfstorm11 :)
 * Outside the Wyrmrest Temple is the Horde Ambassador to the Wyrmrest Temple, not an universal emissary to all factions.
 * The Horde has ambassadors dispatched among the various factions (Argent Dawn, Unyielding, Kalu'ak, Wyrmrest Accord and even the Alliance).
 * See Known Ambassadors for a list of the known emissaries and their current assignment.
 * 07:12, May 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Aye, but my point is, is that this ambassador is kept outside the Temple (you can see him pacing back and forth outside the walls), while the Alliance ambassador is let inside. This could be mere coincedence by the placing of the NPCs, but maybe Alexstraza still holds a grudge of what the Dragonmaw did X many years ago, and who could blame her? Wolfstorm11 (talk) 11:37, May 21, 2010 (UTC)

Alignement
I understood that
 * the Dragonmaw are back in the Horde
 * Dragonmaw Port is the dragonmaw Horde base
 * Mor'ghor becomes their leader and resides in Dragonmaw port

So who is the "horde' dragonmaw leader" if not Mor'ghor who is said to be in Dragonmaw Port?

20:47, August 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * From what I saw, which wasn't too much since it's not done, that Mor'ghor currently leads them, and are neutral (or was it orange...) to the Horde. You can speak with the orcs at the port, but they'll basically say they can't do business with you or Mor'ghor will kill them... Sometimes a few of them will say Mor'ghor will get whats coming to him. So I'm assuming at this point the Horde will get a (probably phasing) quest chain to kill Mor'ghor and free the Dragonmaw clan to rejoin the Horde. The clan members also talk about having left Grim Batol, going to Outland, then returning where they are now and you'll see fel orcs among them. Also a couple of Horde ships off the coast trying with representatives to convince the Dragonmaw orcs to join the Horde. 21:06, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretty much, the Dragonmaw under Mor'ghor rule tolerate the Horde being in their town but, from what I saw in some datamined quests (obviously we can't use that info in the article yet) you help an Dragonmaw "battlemaiden" in killing Mor'ghor and his Fel Orc Enforcers. So Dragonmaw orcs become fully Horde after that series of quests.GVJB (talk) 21:14, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you what you say ends up happening in-game, I hope that some Fel Orcs survive and join the Horde, because it would be amazing having them in Garrosh's side. Also, having Fel Orcs in the Horde would maybe make Blizzard add a red skin color to the creation of orcish characters. Mig64 (talk) 22:58, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt new orc players would be allowed to create fel orcs... don't even allow brown or black. 23:10, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they really should update the customization options for character creation, there's so much to be updated there. x.x Mig64 (talk) 01:57, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * IMO, Fel Orcs are a big no-no. Mag'har and Dragonmaw skin colors, on the other hand, would be very good choices for new customization choices for orcs, although I suppose warlocks would not be allowed to choose the brown skin (for obvious reasons). --[[File:]]Big, furry, and insane (Talk with me!) (Stalk me!) 02:54, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Why are they black?
All of the orcs of the dragonmaw clan seem to have black skin rather than the average green. It's said in the article that they're considered as fel orcs, but fel orcs have red or green skin, there's been nothing thus far to suggest that fel orcs would have black skin. So if it's not because they're fel orcs then what is it that causes them to have black skin? Previously Flame486 23:01, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The color first appeared on the Blackrock orcs. There has been no reason given why some orcs look like that. Guesses include a subspecies, some stage of fel tainting, clan ethnicity, getting covered in ash, black dragon energies/blood, or just to differentiate them from other orcs.-- 23:44, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

On AU Draenor
I just noticed that some "Arena Spectators" found in The Ring of Trials have Dragonmaw models (grey with golden eyes). Now what... mistake or MU / AU Dragonmaws...? --Mordecay (talk) 12:10, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Probably just a random use of all orc models. The Dragonmaws don't exist in the AU. 20:52, 2 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Yea, right, something with dragons not being on Draenor. Wondering though... does it count as a difference between the universes since it is a developer thing? --Mordecay (talk) 21:12, 2 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Possibly, though they may have formed later on in Draenor's history from other clans after the orcs drink the demon blood. 21:15, 2 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Don't give them ideas! :D That could work if they retconned the part which say the Dragonmaws were present when Ner'zhul "revealed" draenei as enemies.--Mordecay (talk) 21:39, 2 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, they (and most of the clans) were there from the beginning in the main universe.-- 21:50, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Twin Peaks archive page error
Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but I've noticed that the reference pointing to the archived Twin Peaks preview from the old Cataclysm launch site doesn't seem to be working properly. This is how it shows up on my screen when I'm viewing the References section:
 * ^ World of Warcraft: Cataclysm - Features - Twin Peaks Battleground. Archived from [www.worldofwarcraft.com/cataclysm/features/twinpeaks.html the original] on 2011-12-14. Retrieved on 2017-04-18.

In other words, the link to the original site just shows up as plain text instead of a functioning external link. I'm not sure why this is, especially since the archived battleground description from the game guide as well as the Twilight Highlands preview from the very same aforementioned Cata launch site both seem to be working fine.
 * ^ Twin Peaks - Game Guide - World of Warcraft. Archived from the original on 2014-05-16. Retrieved on 2017-04-18.
 * ^ a b World of Warcraft: Cataclysm - Features - Twilight Highlands. Archived from the original on 2011-08-16. Retrieved on 2017-04-18.

I find this especially weird when considering that when you follow both the Twin Peaks and the Twilight Highlands links to the Cata preview site, you get redirected to the same place: Blizzard Entertainment: World of Warcraft: Cataclysm. Anyone have any clue on how to fix this? I don't really know anything about the inner workings of the wiki markup language. I might also just be half-blind and have made some blatant error in the wikitext somewhere causing the ref web template to break. -- 08:28, 12 May 2017 (UTC)


 * It was missing the 'http://' part :


 * ^ World of Warcraft: Cataclysm - Features - Twin Peaks Battleground. Archived from the original on 2011-12-14. Retrieved on 2017-04-18.


 * As for a direct link, I have no idea, I'm encountering the same problem with the Dragonblight WotLK page, it redirects to the WotLK index page instead. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 11:06, 12 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Oh, of course. Derp. To clarify, by the direct link bit I didn't mean that I was wondering why the Cataclysm features preview site wasn't available anymore - I already knew that - I was mostly just wondering why two different links redirecting to the same destination would behave differently. -- 11:12, 12 May 2017 (UTC)