Template talk:Gods and demigods

Classification of Demigod
Sorry if i'm undoing what you did but i'm using the Demigod as a basis for what is a demigod or not if something there is proven to not be a demigod, feel free to remove both entries--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:33, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know. But I keep looking at that page, and it's in serious need of some cleanup, including citations. For now, rather than just going directly off that page, let's stick to individuals that are explicitly confirmed to be gods or demigods. If you're not sure, don't add them. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 01:36, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Titans are demigods that im absolutely sure
 * "Alliance Player's Guide says that they are akin to gods. Shadows & Light states that they are demigods.[11]"
 * That is unless 2 references are wrong--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:40, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * "Akin to gods" doesn't mean demigod. Remember, we're not using the dictionary definition of demigod, we're using the Warcraft definition of demigod, which means that unless something is specifically said to be a demigod, it's probably not. With respect to Shadows & Light, I'd love to see the exact wording on that. Blizzard has stated several times, in no uncertain terms, that the Titans are not gods. It seems very strange then that they would even be demigods. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 01:43, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I can ask in scrolls of lore, here http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/showthread.php?p=258178#post258178--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:47, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Have 3 problem
 * -Shadow ascendant are considered loas but are nots deities, i assume not in this template
 * -Loa might be to huge so we could divide it into the respective pantheon but might become too long
 * -Not a problem But the Four Drakkari Gods are Never stated to be loas and act in a total different way, but where do i put them?(i suspect that one of them is elune but that's beside the point)

Can you give me a answer?--Ashbear160 (talk) 02:05, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * -Another Point Ula-tek is never called a loa, and she more pointed towards being a old god than a loa.

--Ashbear160 (talk) 02:08, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * 1. Shadow Ascendants are sometimes worshiped as loa by trolls, but they are not loa.
 * 2. Let's see HOW huge it is. I'm pretty sure there's fewer than you think.
 * 3. They're loa. Elune is not a loa. She is a god.
 * 4. The "Old God" bit for Ula-Tek is speculation. Remember, the RPG also "speculated" that Teron Gorefiend was in Karazhan. For now, put her with the loa.
 * -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 02:23, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * 3.They are never called loa, although they didn't have problems with calling everybody else a Loa, they are ALWAYS mentioned as Gods(speculation with elune is derived from her being exactly described like elune)
 * 4.It's just that calling her a Loa is avoided, and she's specificily speculated to be either a old god or old god related, if she was a loa they would at least have stated that she could also be a loa but she isn't--Ashbear160 (talk) 02:34, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, i'm done, feel free to change anything you might seem fit, i renamed the last one because not all of them were demigods and were gods instead--Ashbear160 (talk) 02:47, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Titans are demigods
 * "Few scholars actually believe the mighty demigods even existed."--Ashbear160 (talk) 02:49, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I renamed the last category to Other because i don't need to restate the name of the article that's just dumb, and moved Ula-Tek to other, she speculated by "word of god" to be a old god but never confirmed as such, she speculated by players to be a Loa but never called that, so when in doubt put in other.--Ashbear160 (talk) 02:53, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Also, one more thing. Stop putting the Earthmother in here unless you can provide a clear citation that she is, in fact, a deity. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 03:16, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Earthmother is not the deity in this case she's more of the group of deities that make the earthmother belief according to the tauren, Mu'sha/Elune is one of her eyes, Anshe the sun god is another, remains to be seen what the blue child is to her, I however do not know how to list the Sky Father--Ashbear160 (talk) 03:23, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * An'she and Mu'sha are not deities. The tauren see Elune as a representation of Mu'sha; that does not mean that Elune *IS* Mu'sha. Anyway, I've reorganized the template. Please don't undo this; there is a reason why I organized it this way, specifically to split up gods and demigods which shouldn't just be lumped together under "other." The differences between gods and demigods in the Warcraft universe are very important and the distinction should be maintained.
 * I've also removed a lot of names from the template, primarily those that were described as spirits or simply being worshiped as a god without actually being one. If you want to add any other names to the template, please discuss them here first. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 03:37, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think the differences are very important but it doesn't matter
 * I think Issliruk, Karkut and Tayutka are either loas or ancient guardians but it's never claimed so meh.
 * Elune and Mu'sha are indeed claimed to be one and the same in the Aponi/Tahu Conversation
 * There's the thing that the Earthmother, the Deep Mother and the Sky Father still need to be addressed
 * And we could probably a small section called either Ascended mortal or Deified Mortals--Ashbear160 (talk) 03:58, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The Earthmother, Deep Mother, and Sky Father would be addressed in the Religion template, as that's what they are. They're not gods. As for ascended and deified mortals, the point of the templates is not to give every single bit of information, but to provide easy navigation between them. That kind of specific information can be found on the demigods page, and that's good enough. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 04:50, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Err Xavious and Azshara are Ancients apparently and all ancients are demigods...--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:40, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * And i think the dark ancients are important to add--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:41, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.wowpedia.org/Staff_of_Sorcerer-Thane_Thaurissan Ragnaros is a demigod so i's not a long shot to consider other elemental lords a demigod--Ashbear160 (talk) 14:10, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Xavius and Azshara are eternals, not ancients. Just because Ragnaros is considered a demigod by at least Thaurissan, doesn't mean that the other elemental lords are demigods. And what's these "dark ancients" that you speak of? -- 14:21, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * That's practically nonsensical since they are the same type of being
 * Xavious and azshara are in the ancient guardian pages
 * Dark ancients are Lycanthoth and Nemesis, they are stated to be dark versions of the demigods and called false gods(because they are impersonating other gods)--Ashbear160 (talk) 14:29, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Arkkoroc is said to be a "smaller deity" and only assumed to be a "sea giant god". I say we should remove him.
 * 16:53, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * But he's called a deity and that's the point, Altrough there should be a distinction between lesser deities and major deities also going to add Hetaera, since she's stated as a god even if a false one--Ashbear160 (talk) 16:58, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ashbear on the point of Arkkoroc. With regards to Hetaera, by definition a false god is not a god. That's what false means. The Dark Ancients are also not actual Ancients, and thus are not demigods. And PLEASE refer back to where I asked you to discuss other names before simply adding them to the list. It's very annoying when you add simply add them yourself and then we have to remove them. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:16, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * "So they've summoned their own wolf god - a perversion of what once was. "Lycanthoth," the corruptor."
 * Lycanthoph is a god accordying to this statement
 * It can also be assumed that Nemesis is also a god since he was "made" the exact same way Lycanthoph was--Ashbear160 (talk) 18:33, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * "Twilight's Hammer dreamed of creating their own pantheon of twisted ancients to rule over the land, sea, and air. With you're help, they've all been executed."
 * They are stated to be a "Pantheon of twisted Ancients" and ancients are demigods
 * I can't say anything about hetaera Since she described as a false god, although she might be one of the Hydra pet gods of the old gods favour, like Aku'mai and Ghar'zilla--Ashbear160 (talk) 18:40, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * We should probably start applying this template?--Ashbear160 (talk) 14:25, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't applied the templates to the Gronns, Titans and Loas Articles--Ashbear160 (talk) 16:22, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Weird
It looks weird... i think it would be better if we remove the demigod square, i'll change it and if anybody has any complaints talk here, see if we can work it out--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:02, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ...And now we come right back to the reason why I had it set up like that in the first place: there's no longer any distinction made between gods and demigods, and that's a very important distinction to have. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:36, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Does there need to be?, particularly since blizzard interchanges between the terms in the same character.
 * and aren't the loas and old gods, considered to be gods too? --Ashbear160 (talk) 20:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, there needs to be a distinction. Gods and demigods are not the same thing, and very rarely does Blizzard use the terms interchangeably. Old Gods are considered gods. Loa are usually referred to as demigods, with a few exceptions. Either way, removing information for aesthetic reasons is never a good thing. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * What are those exceptions in loas, and no, blizzard stamps the term god to anything with a hint of divinity, i didn't remove it for aesthetic reasons, there is no reason to distinguish between the two since blizzard uses the both terms like they don't care. --Ashbear160 (talk) 21:05, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Show me proof that Blizard uses god and demigod interchangeably, because I've not seen it. In fact, the Warcraft Encyclopedia has articles on both explicitly showing that they are not the same thing: Gods and Demigods. As far as the loa, the one exception I can think of off the top of my head is Hakkar, though I believe the ones in Zul'Drak may be called gods as well. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:29, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm gathering information so wait a while, but i can give some examples:
 * Loas are called primal gods, but they are said to be more powerful than elementals, but less than gods, also have they ever been called demigods?
 * Lycanthoth is called a wolf god, trough he's called both a Ancient, and made from a demigod.
 * Agamaman has been called a primitive boar god.
 * Nemesis situation also applies the same as lycanthoth --Ashbear160 (talk) 22:02, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Gahrzilla and Grull are worshipped like deities.
 * Various ancients and Loas have been also called spirits making it even more confusing.--Ashbear160 (talk) 22:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You're confusing Lycanthoth with Goldrinn. -- 22:06, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * No i'm not, Lycanthoth is called a wolf god http://www.wowhead.com/quest=25272 --Ashbear160 (talk) 22:08, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * And apparently Goldrinn is also called a wolf god http://www.wowhead.com/quest=25269--Ashbear160 (talk) 22:10, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I preferred the older version, with Loas and Old Gods with their own section. The "Gods" field was clearly a repository for those "we're not sure what they are" deities, while we put under demigods everything confirmed as demigods. Loas and Old Gods, we aren't sure of their nature, so we leave them with their own section. Troll and Tuskarr are just a classification.--Lon-ami (talk) 11:10, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't like the old one, Loas and Old gods are both gods, it says so in their title, using gods just for everything else is not good classification.--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:00, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Dark ancients
These should stay in the ancient section, after all they are still ancients and are made from other ancients.--Ashbear160 (talk) 11:45, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Dark Ancients != Ancient Guardians. They aren't the same. No, really, they aren't. -- 11:47, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Ancient guardian is just a secondary name for ancients, which the dark ancient are... it says so in the first line of the article
 * "Ancient Guardians[1][2] (also known as Ancients or ancients) are demigods of Azeroth. "
 * --Ashbear160 (talk) 11:59, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


 * So you are going to ignore what i say and impose your rules?, that section is for things called ancients that are demigods, are you going to ignore that?--Ashbear160 (talk) 13:00, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Everyone should be happy now :).--Lon-ami (talk) 14:36, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


 * A small tweaking so the template itself doesn't have too much subdivisions, like i did with the other god section.--Ashbear160 (talk) 14:55, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Terokk
Actually, Terokk is classified as a Demigod but he doesn't appear in the template. Is he really a demigod or is the template incomplete? maybe he isn't enough relevant to appear here ¿?. --Petrovic (talk) 07:58, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * He's already present with the two other arakkoa gos :).--Lon-ami (talk) 09:35, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Cool... and what about Queen Azshara? --Petrovic (talk) 14:49, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * According to Dark they are only in the RPG, so no they shouldn't be in this template if that's true.--Ashbear160 (talk) 16:50, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I can't understand why some demigods appear in the Demigod article but not in the template (Azshara and Xavius for example). The are or the aren't but not for the template and yes for the article. Anyway I'll look for some info about them out of the RPG books. --Petrovic (talk) 18:49, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * And I don't understand why there are/were duplicate information on Demigod and Ancient Guardian. I cleaned it up a little bit, but keep it to one article. -- 19:05, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * My Bad i forgot that sometimes linking is more convenient, I'll work that on the Eternal article after this.--Ashbear160 (talk) 20:46, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Small Redesign
Ashbear160 here. The way this template was designed was bothering me, as its size was larger than it needed to be and contained a lot of redundancies. With the addition of the Eternal Ones I decided to give it a small redesign. Here are a few notes on what I did:


 * Added Eternal Ones section and a Void Lords (with Dimensius) group to the Other section.
 * If a group of gods has less than 5 members their group goes to the Other section. This is to avoid wasting too much space on small sections that leaves too much empty space. Did this to August Celestials, Arakkoa, Drakkari, Tuskarr, Tauren and Night Elves gods. (Elune having a section just for herself was really wasteful)
 * I've tried to keep all the information presented in the current template, even if I didn't agree that some of it should be in this template. I've used superscript for details like this.
 * I've kept extraneous details on the Elemental Lords, their element and if they are the original or second holder of the title. I prefer if these details weren't in the template at all as it feels like padding.
 * Added a superscript for Dark and Vashj'ir ancient rather than having it as their own sub-section in Ancient Guardians with 2 entries each.
 * Made the links to the alternate versions of the Arakkoa gods superscript. This makes a lot of sense than having them between parenthesis.
 * Added "Artificial" superscript to G'huun. I feel like that's an extremely important detail, considering all the extraneous info on the Elemental Lords.
 * In order to avoid having 2 huge lines for the RPG deities(one Other, the other Loa), I made it it's own RPG Exclusive section below Other.
 * Updated the bottom section to have links to the Cosmic Forces.

Feel free to change or revert this to however you feel like it. I assume at some point this template will have to be redesigned as Blizzard starts exploring the Cosmic Forces.--Ashendant (talk) 19:44, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I will almost never object to making gargantuan navigation templates smaller. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:32, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I have a few suggestions to this list, but I'm not entirely sure if I should proceed with some of these as some of them require discussion: Hopefully with these change we will have a complete template.--Ashendant (talk) 16:12, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * 1) Remove Ruumbo from the template as its article only says he is presumed to be an deity. If we add "presumed deities" to this list then this would template would have to expand tenfold, with them.
 * 2) Additions to the RPG Exlusive section: Deep Mother, One in the Deeps and Xavius.
 * 3) Additions to the Ancient Guardians section for unnamed Ancient Guardians from the "The Sundering" book. This is to keep consistent with the fact that we have Summoned Old God on the template. These are:  Wolverine guardian, Reptilian warrior, Squat warrior ancient, Fox ancient and Panther ancient(might be Ashamane).
 * 4) The following are a list of articles I compiled from articles and categories, like Religion, God, Demigod and Eternal that are not on this template. There needs to be a discussion on each to see which of these qualify:
 * Lady of the Sword, mysterious entity worshipped by the Vrykul.
 * Tidemother, mysterious entity worshipped by the Tidesages.
 * Murmur, Primordial Entity, possibly more fundamental elemental than the Elemental Lords. Listed in the Religion category.
 * Kodian and Orsonn, children of Ursoc and listed in the Demigod category.
 * Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, in the Demigod article.
 * Azshara, in the Demigod article.
 * Terokk, in the Religion article.
 * Medivh, in the Eternal article
 * Zar'jira, in the Religion article.
 * Nhal'athoth, in the Demigod article.
 * Borrok the Devourer, in the Religion article.
 * Volcanoth, in the God article.
 * Xeleth, in the God article.
 * Dragon Aspects, in the Eternal article.
 * Genesaur, in the Demigod article.
 * Gronn, they were labelled as immortal demigods in the original website.
 * Gul'dan, Selin Fireheart and Kalecgos, listed in the God article, through in these cases it seems like its just boasting or exaggeration.


 * Since nobody commented I will just make the changes I think are appropriate.--Ashendant (talk) 21:31, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Worshipped beings
Should we include objects of worship, even if they are never stated to be gods? Xavius was included under that logic, but this list would expand considerably if we include all objects of worship.--Ashendant (talk) 19:37, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. And maybe we shouldn't include Xavius. Azshara is also worshipped and is more powerful than him yet I don't think she should also be included here. --Ryon21 (talk) 19:58, 24 November 2020 (UTC)