Talk:Blood elf controversy/Evil

One can't argue that the blood elves aren't evil,they mindcontrol those who don't like the goverment(making Lor'themar a dictator),they attack the draenei in outland for no apparrent reason,they keep slaves,and the fact that they torture beings of pure good just kills any possible sympathy you might have left for them. Seriously they might as well have Hitlers moustaches and start goosestepping. I mean orcs lost their own planet,their friends, got their skin mutated,commited horrible crimes due to a demon pact,Night elves lost their immortality,gnomes their city and you don't seem them lashing out at the world. Even the forsaken are better behaved then the blood elves I guess the high elves always were leaning toward evil, cause losing your city and becoming magic addicts is nothing compared to losing your planet,your friends or your immortality Angry ogre


 * Angry ogre, I am way past caring about your blatant refusal to look for shades of grey. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:32, 19 January 2007 (EST)

My point is no matter how you look at it blood elves are complety unsympathetic,blood elves have no real shades of grey. They can easily fight their addiction like the high elves are doing but instead they choose the cowards way out, at the expense of others. Angry ogre


 * Angry ogre, if you don't want to hear it from Ragestorm, hear it from Blizzard: . This elf clearly shows signs of sympathy. [[Image:IconSmall BloodElf Male.gif|16px]] APΘLLΘ (ZEUS)  18:58, 20 January 2007 (EST)

Just one single blood elf feeling somewhat sad about the loss of his probably evil apprentices does not make blood elves at all sympathetic, or non-evil. Dozens of evil people historical and fictional have expressed slight regret at losing their comrades. For example Rend and Maim were sad at the death of their father but in no way does this makes them sympathetic or non-evil Angry ogre


 * They weren't sad, they felt like morons for letting Doomhammer get there first. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:55, 20 January 2007 (EST)

I'm sure they felt midly sad at the loss of their rotten pa. But anyway I 'll use another example. For instance Whitemane feeling sad about Mograine dieing doesn't make her a good or sympathetic Angry ogre.


 * No they didn't.
 * Anyway, there are blood elves and blood elves - I mean, Azerothian and Outlandish, the latter being already corrupted by fel energies of demonic magic (and thus beyond redemption), consciously following evil started by their leader, Prince Kael'thas. The former however still have chance to cure themselves somehow. Yes, they do feed on magic like their evil brethren, even on demons, as taught by Rommath (who was sent by Kael), but they mostly use local, non-demonic sources (mana wyrms, etc.). And if you have the Burning Crusade, in time you will probably see that they do not want to become like those who follow Kael. Azeroth blood elves have already seen their corrupted brethren who gave up to their lust of magic - the Wretched.
 * We all know that Azerothian blood elves still do evil things - such as stealing the power of the Naaru to empower their Blood Knights and Priests, but maybe the Naaru want his energy to be stolen, so the Light might influence them and restore them to their former goodness. (speculation) Maybe after the encounter with Draenor blood elves they will redeem themselves by fighting their evil brethren, killing Rommath and other Kael's lackeys, and free the Naaru (who in turn will stay to help them "recover from their ilness" - which of course may take time, so they won't instantly become "no more mana addicted" elves), all in a world event. Some blood elves have already turned their back on their former leader (the Scryers), so why couldn't the Azerothian blood elves do that as well?
 * In short, even if they do some evil things, they're not past redemption yet. And even then, not all of the blood elves do these things, so the race of the blood elves cannot be described as innately evil, etc. Widen your horizons, Angry Ogre. People with similar points of view are racists, and all racists deserve to die. 05:18, 21 January 2007 (EST)

I have several problems with the M'ruu being a matyr theory. First of All using holy magic does not make one a good person as evidenced by Daelin proudmoore and the scarlet crusade,and whats the Naaru letting blood elves have holy magic supposed to do,all it does is teach them that they can steal anything and that its easier to just steal the something rather then the work for it through faith. Second of allI doubt the Naaru are at all fond of the horde,I mean they'll tolerate them and accept their help but they sure as hell don't like them for these reasons

1.Only a small minority in the forsaken believe in the light the rest of the horde either doesn't care about the light(orcs,tauren,trolls) or abhor(forsaken and blood elves) it.

2.Orcs almost wiped out their favorite subjects the draenei,the Draenei still hold the grudge and I doubt the Naaru really care whether the orcs where tricked into doing its still not something one can forgive and forget about. Also Both Azeroths and outlands blood elves harass the Draenei

3.They probably heard stories of horde cruelty from the humans and Draenei.

4.Blood elves are tainted with demon energy,orcs still have their green skin from demonic corruption and the forsaken are undead. Thats 3/4 of the horde,that they wil be disgusted to be in the same room with. They can probably smell the intense amounts of corruption on the forsaken and blood elves and the smaller amount on orcs. Heck I'm sure if it wasn't for balance issues Blood knights would be kos

Also blood elves are not a race, they are a group of evil high elves.

I'll add more on this later Angry ogre


 * Now you're just ignoring basic psychology. M'uru would believe that the Light's powers would influence the blood elves, regardless of whether it actually will. Second, the Naaru are not you: they would be willing to see all sides of the issue, including the corruption and redemption of the orcs, and the pathos of the blood elves.
 * And by saying the the Horde abhors the Light, you're conforming the the very stereotype you claim to despise. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:10, 21 January 2007 (EST)

I didn't say all of the horde abhors the light but a good percentage of the forsaken and blood elves certainly do. And as perfect as the naaru are I doubt the Naaru had to take a side they would certainly take the side of the Alliance over the horde for the issues afterall Alliance is their army of light and the Horde is just those strange looking creatures that do you occasional favors. Also if M'ruu really does believe giving blood elves holy energy will make them good,then he is fool,after all if your going to give the light to somebody why not the gnomes.tauren or someone whos not going to use the light for evil? Angry ogre


 * There's one major problem, Angry Ogre - the Naaru are too powerful. If M'uru didn't want to be siphoned, he would like free himself, just like that, and no blood elven magics would keep him long.
 * You think that he's a fool if he believes that Light can make them good. I think that you are acting like Azeroth was your playground, and blood elves and the Naaru your family - you think that you know them better than anyone else! Remember, it's a fantasy world, and it's creators (I mean Blizzard) can do anything, even make things that contradict with what you imply. If I were you, I would wait patiently for the results, which will probably be seen quite soon. 20:55, 21 January 2007 (EST)

I still don't get why they would give the light to people who would most definetly use it for evil. Anyway I'm betting if theres ever a warcraft 4,the blood elves will betray the horde go their on way with the forsaken and that their magic addiction will lead and tendancy to backstap allies will lead to their destruction. Angry ogre


 * The blood elves have never backstabbed anyone (Kael'thas excluded, obviously). And I find it hard to believe that you don't find it in the least odd that there was only one naaru in Tempest Keep.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:06, 22 January 2007 (EST)

They backstapped the alliance,they backstapped the light,their ancestors(highborne) had a history of dishonesty and its said they are only using the horde. Infact their leader Theron even said he lied about half the things in the letter. Anyone there was probably only one Naaru in the tempest keep due to the fact that the others evacuated. Though I suppose M'ruu could just be a dangerous loonie who insanily believes that letting blood elves become a mockery of everything the naaru stand for will make them good. If thats the case,then I'm sure his next bright idea will be giving doomgaurds the power of mock paladins, in the hope that it will make them reform. Angry ogre


 * They backstabbed the alliance? It was the other way round. The Highborne had a history of dishonesty? Really, they were just foolish, selfish and up themselves. They backstabbed the light? Isn't this what we're discussing the truth of now, so invalid? You're just ignoring basic lore ... And again you keep saying the blood elves are evil when what we're discussing with you is whether they are evil. It's an invalid point. The blood elves on Azeroth are not "a mockery of everything the naaru stand for", and are nothing like the Doomguard. But you won't listen, because you're so sure of your own position as to ignore the points people are putting across. 01:12, 22 January 2007 (EST)

Garithos was just one single corrupt human and he's dead. They could have easily come back to the alliance like the high elves did but they didn't,they also have the power to combat their addiction as evidenced by what the high elves are doing but they willingly embrace it rather then fight it. The Highborne were most definetly evil,they sided with frickin Sargeras,and more then half of them became evil monsters like Satyrs and Naga. And as for the Blood knights being a mockery of everything the Naaru stand for. First of all they obtained their powers though stealing rather then faith,second of all they abhor the light and creating the blood knight was their revenge,spiting the light. Second of all they use their powers for evil,attacking the Naaru's chosen, the draenei and using their power oppress others like the leper gnomes. And their getting pretty close to becoming demonic,those glowing fel green eyes which are virtually identical to the soulless eyes of a doomguard. If it wasn't for balance,Naaru would probably slaughter these twisted parodies of paladins on sight. Angry ogre


 * No, the Highborne were not evil, they were misguided and had a lust for power and then Sargeras corrupted them to be 'fully evil'. A fair number of the Highborne had no idea what was going on outside their area, and even for those that did know, a lack of action does not make you evil. If a lack of action was evil, then so was Durotan. The Highborne also thought what they were doing was best for their race - right until the end many thought they were involved in creating a new beginning for the race, not causing the end of it. If all the Highborne were evil, then by definition so are the high elves - except they're not (some 'defected', remember?). Stop bandying around the term evil as if it's applicable to anyone that does something questionable. The Azerothian blood elves (and blood knights) are fighting against the enemies of both the Alliance and Horde, so please do tell me where this is 'evil'? Attacking the draenei is evil now? Then so is the entire Horde. I note you're a fan of using emotive phrases in your answers - it doesn't help support your argument, it just makes you look more biased, btw. 03:31, 22 January 2007 (EST)


 * Hey, I thought of something. Gnomes are unbashedly evil! First they hide out in their neat little capital, not caring a whit of the countless lives lost in the first two wars, only providing token support in the form of scrapmetal. Then, when they are invaded by troggs, they decide to spray their own people with toxic gases, heedless of the obvious ramifications. And when they finally get chased out of their city, they decide to march into the poor dwarves' turf and occupy a whole section of their capital, polluting a second area with their tainted warlock magics and demon slavery. In fact, they are devout servants of the Burning Legion, as evidenced by quests in Azuremyst Isle. Blood elves seem like saints compared to the insane, calculating and right-out malignant gnomes. -- 08:08, 22 January 2007 (EST)


 * And they'll bite your kneecaps off if you anger them. Mini bastards. 08:10, 22 January 2007 (EST)


 * That would make the Scourge a unbashedly non-evil - see, they got to fight to get a planet of their own against masses of evil enemies like blackhearted blood elves, mini bastard gnomes, vicious trolls, green alien orcs, and other unimaginably evil creatures that inhabit the World of Azeroth... Poor Ner'zhul was chained inside an ice block, only his real friends helped him regain freedom and make him their ultimate leader, who will vanquish the ne'er-do-wells from their future land... And that as well would make the Burning Legion's mission pure and just... Sargeras the Peacemaker, Savior of Worlds... 10:21, 22 January 2007 (EST)


 * I have never been more pleased with the work of any users at this site than I am at this moment. I think it's pretty clear that some people aren't going to change, and which opinion is the better one for the wiki. Kirkburn and Sul'jin, thank you for the wonderfully refreshing sarcasm.
 * Angry ogre, if your propaganda (and believe me, this is the correct usage) makes it into anything other than a controversy article, then this conversation will be ended very rudely. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 10:54, 22 January 2007 (EST)

Enough gnome jokes,and what the heck is emotive,anyway lets get back on topic. Anyway most highborne were evil,they summoned sargeras knowing the consequences,and many like Xavius became satyrs. I'll admit some like Dath'Remar were misguided but a whole lot of them were like Xavius and Vashj. Even the ones that eventually sided with the night elves caused a magical terrible storm. They were generally vain and selfish people. Even at the height of their goodness,they weren't perfect, in the first and second war,they still hunted trolls like how a man would hunt a wolf. True Forest trolls are dangerous creatures but they are sentient non demonic humanoids. And the Azerothian blood elves go out of their way to hurt the draenei,this is evidenced in Azuremyst isle. Even the forsaken don't go out of their way to harass the draenei like blood elves do. And just because the blood elves fight against the scourge it in no way makes them good,afterall by that logic the Burning legion is good because they oppose the scourge. The blood elves aren't even good allies,they played off the orc's sympathy for them,and are actually in with the forsaken in the to betray the horde. I'd say about 94% of the blood elf society is evil(even their eyes burn with the evil of demonic energy),most of the good ones were able to fight their addiction and stay high elves unlike the cowardly weakwilled blood elves. I'm betting soon the whole blood elf race will look something like a satyr. Its not something that can be argued,various employees and writtings of blizzard call blood elves evil. And Kirkburn you said the blood elves were evil in an early discussion,I think your just doing this to argue with me. Angry ogre


 * True, Highborne were evil - or rather they were over-greedy, which made them evil. I'm not quite sure though about them knowing the consequences of the summoning of the Sargeras - their magic addiction ecstasy made them agree to summon the Dark Titan into the Azeroth, but they were like in a trance. The ones who sided with the rest of the night elves (remember, the Highborne were night elves. The storm unleashed by the Highborne who survived the Sundering was an answer to Malfurion's saying that no one is allowed to use magic of the Well of Eternity made by Illidan. They were not completely sane, remember, already suffering from the addiction.
 * Next. High elves fought Amani forest trolls, because it was the elves who were attacked in the first place. God, read some lore! Demonic or not, trolls wanted elves off their ancrestal lands, and elves, having just estabilished a new kingdom, protected it. Is defence evil?
 * Next. Blood Elves vs. Draenei. Even for the Draenei being noble and such, they're Alliance. Blood Elves = Horde, Draenei = Alliance. Alliance <> Horde. Get it? And do not compare Forsaken and Blood Elves here - Forsaken have had some problems estabilishing their new kingdom and fighting the Scourge to protect themselves. Blood Elves just had to reestabilish their old kingdom, already defended from south by... the Forsaken, of course! So they have some time to harass newfound Alliance members, the Draenei.
 * The high elves that didn't convert into blood elves that can be found throughout the world, because they weren't present in Quel'thalas when all began. They're still a part of the Alliance, but they're just trusted individuals. They were never imprisoned by Grand Marshal Garithos, didn't suffer from their allies, and such. They decided that they will not succumb to their addiction and try to fight it. Blood elves on the other hand are trying to sate the hunger somehow, and they found out that their beloved (for now) prince had found a way to help them. They don't know yet that he became almost as demonic as creatures he fed on. All "evil" they do now is just to keep themselves alive (with the exception of the M'uru, which is a stupid idea of Blizzard (along with "no blood elven warriors").
 * Your way of thinking made me think of Titans as the ultiumate evil in the whole Warcraft universe, because they want to stop Sargeras (who commands the Burning Legion, which is good, because it fights the evil Scourge) in his noble quest.
 * I've gotta three pieces of advice for you:
 * Read as much lore as possible, especially History of Warcraft.
 * Try to find out some shades of grey between black and white.
 * If you really want to use some arguments (like the one about high elves fighting forest trolls), make sure that you know how to use it properly, not just to write something that might help you explain your position.
 * This essay ends here -18:50, 22 January 2007 (EST)

I'll admit, you put up a good argument. I will write up a response by tommorow. Angry ogre


 * Angry Ogre, I'm pretty certain I have never described the blood elves as evil. The Highborne weren't 'evil' - evil is a very strong word to use, and I cannot see how you can apply it to the Highborne as a race prior to Sargeras' arrival? They thought they were going to improve the world by summoning this 'god'. Evil suggests they went out of their way to hurt others. As far as I can tell this isn't supported by the WotA books. Yes, certain individual Highborne (e.g. Xavius) eventually knew what was going on and were 'pleased' by it, but this does not indict the entire race as evil.
 * You also appear to suggest the use of demonic magics makes one evil - so, er, all warlocks are evil too?
 * Angry Ogre, buy a dictionary, or use 'the internet'. If you don't understand simple words such as 'emotive', then you won't have much luck debating with us. You seriously seriously need to read up on the Scryer faction, elves in WotA, etc etc. Not only that but there are more than two factions of blood elves. Just because one faction is doing 'evil' stuff, doesn't make the other factions equally bad.
 * Sul'jin, the lack of blood elf warriors is down to gameplay restrictions - can we seriously leave that alone now, please?
 * Finally, this might be of use: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/evil 23:18, 22 January 2007 (EST)


 * Kirkburn, calm thyself.
 * Sul'jin, if you open that wound again, I cannot be responsible for my responses.
 * Angry ogre, there is one final flaw in your argument: there is no such thing as "unabashedly evil", just as there is no such thing as "pure good". This is universal.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:22, 22 January 2007 (EST)


 * I art calme :) Just like I art calme here - Talk:Mag'har (faction). Hehe Anyway, yes, stop using the term 'evil' for all questionable actions. I guess I should also explain what emotive arguements means? It means, Angry Ogre, you're resorting to emotional pleas to put across your point - it's not a good method of debating, and generally turns most learnéd readers off. Examples: unlike the cowardly weakwilled blood elves, twisted parodies of paladins, and others. Sorry but this along with comments like they summoned sargeras knowing the consequences, just show an ignorance of the lore.  23:28, 22 January 2007 (EST)


 * Ok, me try not to touch da topic of da blood elf warriors, mon.
 * What you say Kirkburn about evil reminds me of something I debated with my friends some time ago - all races and factions of Azeroth (and Draenor) are just too diverse to name one good and other evil. Just like considering the Alliance the "good ones", and the Horde "evil" - in some points it's quite the opposite (e.g. Humans fighting orcs who just want to settle somewhere and live a peaceful life once again, and such). And there's the ultimate evil (the Burning Legion), and other evil (the Scourge), that make other "evils" quite good. While the Alliance and the Horde fights against themselves, it doesn't make either of them evil, because their feuds are small compared to threat of the Lich King, or Kil'jaeden, and they both know that sometimes they must put their differences aside to fight greater threat with combined forces (See: Third War)). Like Ragestorm said, there's no pure evil or pure good. Blood elves are not black, but neither white.
 * ANY race can be desribed as "unbashedly evil" if you describe them your way, Angry Ogre - that is, talking only about their flaws and "evil" deeds, omitting the base, the "why" of all these deeds, and forgetting to mention their good side. Try to see all arguments in this topic, not only those that support your position.05:22, 23 January 2007 (EST)

Ok first of all,I am well aware that the trolls want the high elves out of Quel'thalas. But that still doesn't change the fact that its inhumane to hunt them for pleasure. And why do blood elves single out draenei,its the humans they have problems with. The draenei have commited no crimes against them. As for Kirkburn,I distincly remember you saying blood elves were completely sick bastards which pretty much means evil. Anyway as for why the blood elves are so evil. Hello,all you have to do is look into the window to the soul,the eyes. Their eyes are full of demonic green fire like the nathrazim and Doomguards. Their very souls are being slowly eaten away by the evil magiks they consume. Just like how glowing red eyes symbolize corruption and evil in orcs,the green fires in a blood elf's show their evil and corrupt. Indeed not one single blood elf lacks these demonic eyes. With the way blood elves are acting now,(hell even the scryers absorb demonic magiks),it won't be long before the whole race will be demonic and completly evil satyrs. And yes there are pure good races in Warcraft,Theres the naaru. Also the draenei are almost pure good. Angry ogre


 * Satyrs are not an evolution of blood elves. Actually, you've brought me back to oen of my previous comments - surely this makes all warlocks evil? 18:46, 23 January 2007 (EST)

Some blood/high elf satyrs exist. And as for your question about warlocks yes their evil will eventually corrupt them,they may start out good, but eventually the dark magik of the legion will warp their mind. And blood elves are even worse then warlocks for they consume and put it into their syestem. Angry ogre


 * Note "draenei are almost pure good". your words, AG. Now, recalling that the Blood Elves are hold the idealistic, heroic image of Kael'thas in their heads, it's easy to see how they could hate the Draenei, whom they see as assaulting their Outland brethren and chasing them evilly to Azeroth. I don't actually recall the Nathrezim having green eyes. I think they just had whatever color their team was in WC3, and I recall that Varimathras and Balnazzar in WoW have blue eyes. In fact, how can you look at a character model and claim to see into their souls? All I see is green pixels. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 19:24, 23 January 2007 (EST)


 * Elves do not hunt trolls for pleasure. Even if some elf stated this in-game, it's an individual. The killing of trolls by the blood elves is the continue of their ancient feud. They're just racial enemies of each other now.
 * Blood elves vs. Draenei, and not-vs. Humans. Humans = Alliance. Draenei = Alliance. Get it? Plus some blood elves might have been influenced by Kael's devotees, being told that draenei stand in the way of their brethren (Exodar = 1/5 Tempest Keep, former Draenei city, now belonging to Kael's people - note what Ragestorm said. Azerothian blood elves don't know about all evil their prince did, they have been probably lied and such, and this is the reason why they harass the draenei especially. And of course, the Horde/Alliance conflict.
 * Their eyes glow green because they fed on demonic energies - but they're not demonic like the Nathrezim or the Ered'ruin. True about red eyes of the orcs, but you can't tell the same about green eyes of the blood elves. Remember that they do much (but not everything, as Kael did) to sate their damned hunger. If it wasn't for it, they would gladly leave demon-feeding. And it might be long or not for the blood elves, or even never at all - we'll see everything in future. As for now, no one knows that yet, not even you (Blizzard crew excluded).
 * And warlocks and being evil... The power, of whatever source, can be corrupting if it is used wrongly. If a warlock uses demonic powers to keep demons at bay, to help his own people, does it make him evil? True when warlock is using the demonic magics to empower himself so he can bring pain and destruction to others - that makes him evil. As you can see with the orcs - some are evil, some are not. Even Illidan, though possessing the Skull of Gul'dan, a powerful warlock artifact, out of lust for power, he used his new powers not to destroy the world, but to defeat the enemies of the Night Elves (dreadlord Tichondrius, general of the Burning Legion, and his lackeys; that this act condemned him is another story, because his lust for power wasn't quenched by the Skull and he wanted more and more... That made him mad, but dunno if evil... But that's yet another story.) 20:13, 23 January 2007 (EST)

I remember an official art that showed Dreadlords have the same burning green eyes as blood elves. Its spelled out quite clearly by a night elf npc that blood elves will soon become demons themselves. Well even after they learn that Kael has betrayed them they still continue to harass the draenei for apparent reason. And as for demonic energies, its a virtually known fact that demonic energy always corrupts. The only people in Azeroth who defend it are those who use it. Ever notice how virtually all the warlock npcs are better and evil thats because the demonic energy messed with their mind. A man who becomes a warlock to help combat demons may start out good but eventually he will become warped by the power he wields. Why do you think virtually all the races in the game hate warlocks? The warlock trainers are wrong,demonlogy doess not corrupt those that are weak,it corrupts all eventually. Notice how in the beggining Illidan wanted to do good,and cared about Tyrande. The energy from the skull of Gul'dan ate at his soul,now he probably doesn't even love Tyrande anymore and can only be saved by death. Angry ogre


 * Something said by a nigh elf can't be taken as a fact - it's a subjective opinion (unless it's Malfurion, and even then he can't be sure). Yes, they will harass Draenei - they already started, and draenei are Alliance, so BE have enough reason to continue.. But it's not evil - their conflict is evil, but not the races themselves!
 * Demonic energies can and will corrupt anyone. But look at this: There is an orcish warlock, who uses fel energies to fight demons. He used them to fight troggs and their demonic masters in Ragefire Chasm, fought against the Scourge in Naxxramas, stood firmly before Twin Emperors and Old God C'thun; his goal is not power itself, it's the use the demonic powers against demons and other evil themselves, and he will continue to do so - so is he evil? He mastered warlock magics, and uses them to do good. Is he evil?
 * And Illidan is another story, I've told you before. He wanted any power, not exactly and only warlock power. He was unfortunate to become addicted to magic, and he wanted to sate his hunger, plus to get more power. His greed for power and lust for magic was his curse. Blood elves want to live, as any of us wants. Magic flowed too long through their veins, so now they can't live without it. If they won't get magic, they'll wither and die. So they do whatever is necessary to get the damned magic (I'm repeating myself third time I think). 06:19, 24 January 2007 (EST)


 * I think it's a good idea to remember, too, that Blizzard has a history of morally ambiguous characters, morally ambiguous endings, and making sure you can't label anyone as "unabashedly good," let alone unabashedly evil. Consider that it is at least Blizzard's intention to make the blood elves morally ambiguous, whether or not you agree that they are successful in doing so. 22:17, 24 January 2007 (EST)

They were into morally ambigous characters. But I'm don't think their into it anymore with the addition naaru and draenei(Metzen also said he added them because he thought they looked cool)two infalliable races(and in my own personal view,they are completly lame). And the addition of blood elves(soon their entire race will be consumed and become completly irreddeemable) and forsaken(whose members are almost all completly evil) one to the horde. I get the feeling that the Metzen regreted his decision to make the horde good and the alliance less good,and is trying to change that in the expansion. Just makes you think about what a failure Thrall's new horde was. lets list it's failures

1.He wanted to be at peace with the alliance. It ended up being vicously at war with the alliance.

2.He wanted to get rid of warlock magics. 3 out of the 5 races of the horde practice warlock magic,and 2 of those races use it openly and practically worship it. 3.He wanted it to be free from the manipulations of evil. The new horde is still manipulated by forces of evil(blood elves,forsaken)

4.He wanted it be composed of pure races. Currently the it is composed of two completly evil races and the orcs and trolls ain't doin so well either.

Looks to me like the new Horde is the biggest failure on Azeroth. Angry ogre

If that's your argument then you must say that any race which posesses or at any time posessed warlocks or consorted with an evil power an unabashedly evil failiure. According to your theories, the satyrs make the whole Night Elf race evil, the Dark Irons make all Dwarves evil, the Burning Blade, the Scarlet Crusade, the Atal'ai etc. all make their entire race evil. Thrall founded the New Horde on the principle that redemption CAN be achieved, using his people as an example. If some choose not to follow that principle, Thrall cannot be blamed, and their entire race cannot be demonized. You really need to give up your black and white views and accept the fact that every race has both good and bad members, just like every nation in our world. For if you can't do that, then you're just as racist as the demonic, soulless blood elves of your imagination. Julzwinfield 10.07, 2 December 2007

I've been quiet until now, being a neutral observer of this 'discussion'. However, I would like to point out your mistake here, Angry ogre. You have used your own theories to explain other theories which in turn explain the first theories. Let's see what you've done:

You said the BE are evil because you think Metzen decided to make the Horde evil once more. And you 'proved' this by citing that the Horde is becoming more evil by saying that the BE are in it. mr. peasant 09.12, 25 January 2007 (GMT)


 * For the love of Warcraft, please: DO - NOT - STATE - THINGS - YOU - DON'T - KNOW! Or if you do know, please tell us where did you find this information? How can you know that anyone will be consumed and become completly irreddeemable. Can you foresee the future? And Forsaken are not completely evil - geez, this all discussion is about blood elves and others being evil or not, so if you believe they're evil - that's ok, but don't use your personal thoughts as they were official statements of Blizzard itself.
 * Now, your points:
 * 1.He wanted to be at peace with the alliance. It ended up being vicously at war with the alliance .
 * Of course, due to Admiral Daelin Proudmoore's hatred of orcs. It wasn't Thrall's fault.
 * 2.He wanted to get rid of warlock magics. 3 out of the 5 races of the horde practice warlock magic,and 2 of those races use it openly and practically worship it.
 * The Horde yes - Orcs, Tauren and Trolls were the Horde he spoke of. Forsaken and Blood Elves are new addition to the Horde, they're not under Thrall's command unlike the former three races, therefore again, no Thrall's fault either. They're a part of the Horde because of several reasons (Enemies of the Alliance ("Enemy of the enemy is my friend" rule); orcs felt sympathy for the Forsaken, who are victims of the Legion (indirectly, but still); more Horde outposts on Eastern Kingdoms continent; arcane-using allies; etc.)
 * 3.He wanted it to be free from the manipulations of evil. The new horde is still manipulated by forces of evil(blood elves,forsaken)
 * No, the Horde is not manipulated by them. They lied Thrall about few things (for example he doesn't probably know about M'uru being held prisoned, or Forsaken creating a new plague (or sth)), but they do not control either orcs, tauren nor trolls, the core of the Horde, so no manipulations. Consider it mutual benefitting relation.
 * 4.He wanted it be composed of pure races. Currently the it is composed of two completly evil races and the orcs and trolls ain't doin so well either.
 * See above. The Horde was made of these three basic Horde races, the Forsaken and Blood Elves are their allies (Note that even beginning reputations with different factions is various: trolls/tauren/orcs toward themselves have friendly, toward blood elves/forsaken they're neutral, and analogically forsaken/blood elves are neutral, not friendly, toward orcs/tauren/trolls). And there are NONE completely evil races, unless I don't know about Scourge joining the Horde. Orcs and trolls not better either? Well, they're are hostile toward the Alliance, but are not evil - the same as warring medieval France and Britain - they were at war, but was one side evil and the other good? Well, some conservative British can say that French were evil, but a French can say that British were evil... And none of this is true, because it was just the conflict. So what orcs or trolls look like evil bastards? Orcs are at least more honourable and loyal to their people than humans of the Alliance. And someone who worships honour and loyalty can't be traitorous and backstabbing evil bastard.
 * Oh and by the way - I suggest moving this topic to a separate page. 08:10, 25 January 2007 (EST)

Done.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 08:28, 25 January 2007 (EST)

No matter what the horde is the less good side,Metzen himself doesn't like the blood elves listen to the dvd that comes with the collectors edition. He also said the Draenei were the most pure out of all the races and basically infalliable. And my point about the orcs is proved by the orc voice emotes which all say evil things,and the fact that the troll in Zangermarsh have enslaved a gnome. Thrall also knows about the Naaru in silvermoon read the entry on blood knights again,he's just too corrupt and lazy to stop it. Lets face it,what does the burning crusade have to do with horde. Illidan has much never met orcs(aside from the fel orcs in outland),Darkspear trolls,forsaken or tauren and he probably doesn't care about them either. And the Naaru races of pure good,adore the alliance who they think are the precious army of light. But they couldn't care less about the horde,it wouldn't matter to them at all if all horde races died off,hell they would probably be glad,for the orcs attacked their goody shoes(and in my personal opinion,utterly lame and the most boring race in warcraft) favorites the draenei,the blood elves are torturing a Naaru,their enemies of their precious army of light and only 0.1 percent of the horde worships the light. If beings of good don't go give a damn about you(they don't horde outright and will accept favors from them but they don't like them) what does that say about the horde. Like I said Metzen probably regretted about making the horde sympathetic and the Alliance not pure good. So he's changing it with the expansion. Angry ogre


 * Just because Metzen dislikes the blood elves (which, as the head of lore, he is allowed to do) doesn't mean that he dislikes the Horde's more sympathetic side. It's far more likely that he was opposed to the Blood elves, but Marketing insisted that new (less intelligent) players would be more attracted to a "good" and "evil" side.
 * And now you're just spreading complete lies about the naaru.-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:41, 26 January 2007 (EST)


 * He can don't like blood elves, but for example if he didn't love the orcs, the would never make them so honorable and noble. The Draenei are the most pure as they're following the most noble of all known races - the Naaru.
 * I wouldn't consider Thrall lazy, and especially corrupt. If you were the leader of a whole nation, I think you would have other problems to deal with than just some internal problems of the allies living on other continent. He has enough problems here in Kalimdor, plus now with his brethren in the Outland. He just cares more about his own race.
 * Again, Trolls having an enslaved gnome... Horde/Alliance conflict, it has nothing to do with evil. If this was evil, then the Humans would be evil as well, as they kept Thrall and many others as slaves.
 * And Metzen didn't regret about making the horde sympathetic and the Alliance not pure good. Why? Because if he did, he would change it outright, as he can do that. He didn't, therefore he didn't regret. You say he said he doesn't like the blood elves. Didn't you consider that he might don't like them because they make Horde more evil?
 * Before you will write another post, read and undestand all things said by all people in previous posts.
 * Few things to consider:
 * In a discussion, not many people care about one's personal opinion. Someone might love gnomes, others may hate them - so what? Keep the discussion on-topic, without needless additions.
 * Again, I'll repeat myself, don't state things you don't know are true, because then you're just guessing (wrongly most of the time) or just lying.
 * Things like "100% goodness" and "100% evilness" does not exist. There's no such thing as completely good or utterly evil, as all of them things have some good and some evil (especially from different point of view - someone may see see good things evil).
 * I have unpleasant feeling is a very subjective one, because you think that the Alliance are the "good ones" and the Horde the "evil ones", which is completely wrong. None of them are evil, I said that before, you just don't listen, or don't want to listen (or don't understand what I'm telling you). In any case, any further discussion with you is futile, as you don't know and don't want to learn the basics. Even if you do hate the Horde and love the Alliance, in a discussion try to keep objective point of view, to make other people participating in the discussion look at your arguments with more respect. I, for instance, love the trolls, and lore-wise should hate all elves (including blood elves), but I still do defend them here. If you will discuss from a point of view of an Alliance fanatic, then go speak to a brick wall, because we feel that we do the same when talking to you.

Oh, and please - we do read your posts whole, please do the same, don't reply on only those parts of the posts that suits you - reply all or nothing.07:42, 27 January 2007 (EST)

Any good leader wouldn't let any race of angel torturing, demon sucking,people who have fought with you and your allies for generations,into the horde. The old Thrall would know they only bring evil into the world and would have either not let them into the horde or cleanse the world of their evil like he did to Burx And about the trolls,do you see any alliance presently keeping any horde slaves? As for your question about Metzen,hes probably doing it slowly because imagine how big an uproar there would be if he officially announced he was making the horde completly evil,so hes doing slowly with the hope that players will ease into the new evil "New Horde". And in the current lore 100% good and 100% evil unfortunately exist as evidenced by the Naaru and the pretty much infalliable Draenei. And I don't hate horde,I hate what they've become and as you've witnessed I hate the Draenei(the new ones) because their have no depth I've seen characters in children's cartoons with more depth then the Draenei,blood elves and Forsaken. And currently I respect the trolls the most, for at least they know Forsaken and blood elves don't belong in Azeroth and only belong dead. Angry ogre


 * Thrall is not a god, don't view him as one. He's not all powerful, and he cannot defeat armies single-handedly. Thus, he compromises.
 * And for everyone's sakes, read what they say before blindly repeating the same crap again and again. Thrall almost certainly doesn't know about the naaru (NOT "angel"), if even if he did, there's little he could do about it. Not only that, you're making giant lore errors. Generations of fighting?
 * And finally, for now, I would say the draenei's 'problem' or 'fault' is that most of their brethren became demons. They're not infallible. 16:01, 27 January 2007 (EST)

Taken from Blizzard own website "Although Warchief Thrall and High Chieftain Cairne Bloodhoof openly opposed the blood elves' methods, they recognized the Blood Knights' strategic value. Indeed, it is likely that the group figured heavily in the Horde's ultimate decision to offer membership to the blood elves." Gee letting in demonic elves that are likely to corrupt members of the horde,and are racist against orcs,trolls and tauren,keep slaves,probably supported the slavery of orcs,and are extremly likely to backstab you. But their mockpaladins are useful,so they join. That doesn't sound at all like the Thrall I know. At the very least,the old Thrall would have freed the leper gnomes and M'ruu,having experienced the evils of slavery,he could easily take on a bunch of weak magisters. Also Blizzard has said Draenei are basically infalliable,its not their fault that their brethern turned evil. They don't even torture prisonners they have no skeletons in the closet. Oh and my final point the elf race as a whole has been fighting trolls since their existance. Angry ogre


 * What on earth leads you to believe Thrall could take on the might of the blood elf army on his own? What is more sensible - join with them, or attack yet another enemy? If they don't ally with them, the liklihood of getting trouble from them as an enemy is far more than the liklihood of getting backstabbed at some point in the future (an event you would prepare for, Thrall isn't stupid). "Weak magisters", indeed...
 * Draenei are essentially Eredar. Eredar damn well are fallible, that's my point. Yes, currently the draenei are essentially infallible, but in the past they were not - this is the skeleton in their closet. They had/have to continuously run from their own brethren for many many years and must always make sure they don't become like them. In addition, this has made them quite intolerant. 06:28, 28 January 2007 (EST)

The blood elve's army is still in shambles from the scourge,its having trouble defending itself from Amani trolls. they'd be no match for the combined might of the orcs,trolls,tauren,stonemaul and revantusk. Add the might of legendary heroes Thrall,Cairne,Rok'han, and Rexxar. The blood elf army wouldn't stand a chance.

The Draenei are a different race from the eredar now. thats like comparing high elves to night elves. Only a fool would mistake a draenei for a eredar. And one sees no intolerant draenei npcs. Lets face it Metzen is not perfect and he screwed up with the Draenei and blood elves. Angry ogre


 * For me, intolerance results in the use of capital punishment - draenei use such. No, I will not 'face it', and I think few could have done better than Metzen in expanding the lore. Anyway, why would the Horde wish to attack the Azerothian blood elves (who are not the same as the Outland blood elves, remember)? The closest Horde members to the blood elves are the Undead. The Undead probably wouldn't stand for it. 14:15, 28 January 2007 (EST)

You see no examples of Draenei intolerance instead you see draenei refusing to torture blood elves even though the blood elves are attempting genocide against the draenei. And theres no real difference between outland blood elves and Azeroth's blood elves for they both only bring misery and suffering into the world. Lets not forget that the blood elves and forsaken aren't really chums,their both just using eachother. Blood elves hate all races besides themselves and Forsaken want to get rid of all life on Azeroth,All life means all life so that includes the blood elves. Angry ogre


 * What leads you to believe Azerothian blood elves bring only misery and suffering into the world? Have you seen Silvermoon City? Neither are blood elves attempting genocide against the draenei, I don't know what leads you to believe that either. No playable races are attempting any kind of genocide - only if your stretch the meaning of the word can you suggest the Forsaken are attempting that, but they aren't trying to kill everything exactly, just to turn them to their cause and way of 'life'. You deal in absolutes where none exist. Dislike or even hatred of someone is not the same as wanting them dead or 'disappeared'.
 * I, personally, am against capital punishment and view that as a side intolerance - as I said before, the draenei, like all the races, use it. 16:20, 28 January 2007 (EST)

Yes I have seen silvermoon and I have only seen malice,slavery,demons and racism. And the blood elves on Azuremyst are attempting on killing Draenei on the island that counts as genocide. Try spending do the first forsaken quests,the plague doesn't  turn them into forsaken it just  kills them. The only good thing you can say about Forsaken and blood elves is that their doomed no matter what. Blood elves will eventually degenerate into demons,and all forsaken will eventually become mindless zombies. And according to blizzards logic,Draenei inflicting retribution on evil people is a good thing. Angry ogre

No, that is your logic. Also, I would like to note that the Draenei are indeed prejudiced. Two obvious examples are the rejection of the Scryers by the Aldor as well as the distrust held by the Draenei against their former brethren, the Broken. Also, as far as I know, the Blood Elves attacking the Draenei are the Outland Blood Elves under the direction of Kael'thas and not the Silvermoon Blood Elves [url=http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=9798]. Also, do not quote Aldar's opinion of the evilness of the Outland Blood Elves as an indication that they are evil. It is merely his opinion. mr. peasant 2230, 28 January 2007 (GMT)


 * Even if the sin'dorei on Azuremyst were from Silvermoon (which they aren't), their work it not genocide, as there are a number of draenei are alive elsewhere, and they are not under assault by blood elf assassins. OF course, these blood elves (who, again, are not from Silvermoon) work for the Legion, so genocide is their eventual goal, as no member of the Legion wants the draenei alive. -- Ragestorm  (talk &middot; contr) 17:37, 28 January 2007 (EST)


 * all forsaken will eventually become mindless zombies. Yer what? Angry Ogre, I think it's time you reminded yourself what the Forsaken were before the rebellion... 18:40, 28 January 2007 (EST)

You don't see any mistrust against the draenei's former brethern,infact they seem to welcome them with open arms as evidenced by city exodar. While the blood elves even opress other blood elves. The Aldars also have good reason to mistrust a bunch of demonic,irredeemable,with a history of betrayal and using people. It would be foolish not to mistrust them. And It was stated by a forsaken npc that eventually all forsaken go back to being mindless zombies Angry ogre


 * Umm... since when are there Man'ari eredar in Exodar?-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 18:54, 28 January 2007 (EST)


 * There's a big difference between using demons for personal gain and being demonic. Otherwise all warlocks must be demonic (as are orcs?). And again, you use absolutes where none exist - since when are blood elves irredeemable? Since you just told us so? "History of betrayal" - I find it hard to call couple of months a history, in addition to the fact I disagree with the point itself. I would think (Azerothian) blood elves are the ones betrayed more than the betrayers. 19:04, 28 January 2007 (EST)


 * To Ragestorm* I mean the broken and the lost ones.

Kirkburn you do realise eventually the demonic magik a warlock weilds eventually corrupts them. A warlock can start out an upstanding citizen but given a few years of being a warlock,he'll end up a shadow of his former self. And what the blood elves do is even worse, they don't just surrond themselves with demonic magiks like a warlock,they put the foul stuff into themselves,this slowly eats their souls which might explain their the fact that 90% of the blood elves lack the ability to feel pity for others. . Glowing Green eyes in an elf,is the same as red skin on an orc,it shows how demonic they've become. Angry ogre

I should point out that yes, the blood elves are exceedingly cruel, but the fact they use leper gnomes as slaves is irrelevent, a Night Elf would have no inner doubts about using the darkspear tribe as slaves, does that make the night elf evil? Not neccessarily, the blood elves are no diffrent in this regard, also note that the leper gnomes appear to be a lost cause to the normal gnomes so the typical being, no matter what race, could care less for what happens to a leper gnome, also, where is it said that Thrall is unaware of M'uru? I haven't seen anything that says he's aware of how the blood elves got their power, but I also don't see anything that says he's unaware of how they got light powers, so you can't say anything about Thrall and M'uru right now. Angry Ogre is just so obbsessed that the Blood Elves are evil that he won't listen to reason, so we might as well not even continue. Hordesupporter 16:58, 19 February 2007 (EST)

One must remember. Elves are elves. It seems just about every elvish culture in the history of fantasy is marked with a fair amount of pride and bigotry towards other races. Every race has it's character flaws. Humans have a history of political intrigue and corruption and infighting, as well as bigotry, and are not above demonic corruption (it was a human who destroyed Lordaeron and led the Scourge, and one of their heroes at that). Dwarves can be overly stubborn and untrusting, and let's not forget our good friends the Darkirons (I hope I got that name right) and have a history in fantasy of being greedy. Gnomes have their warlocks, and if we knew more about them we'd probably know more of their flaws, and I wouldn't be surprised if they shared in their cousins greed. Nightelves are just as arrogant and untrusting of other races as Blood Elves, and just look at good old Fandral Staghelm, or psycho's like Maiev or Illidan. Remember, all the Highborne who did side with the legion were Night Elves too. Dranei made one good choice in the past that kept them from becoming like the rest of their race, the evil masterminds of the Burning Legion. I wouldn't put it past one or two to fall again, and their racial hatred of Orcs and other races is nothing to be proud of. The only infallible race here is the Naaru, and while the Dranei maybe their most faithful followers, I bet they'll take whatever help is given as is shown by their welcoming the Scryers.

Oh, and perhaps M'uru simply wanted to give light powers to more people who would use them against the legion, as Azerothian blood elves are certainly not on the Legion's Christmas card list. It would also be good to point out, that while yes, the BE's have Demonic energies in them, along with whatever other magic they choose to consume, so do Broken Shamans who are aboard the Exodar. Having these energies in you doesn't make you evil, it just gives you an addiction, which if you don't sate, may make you insane and do evil things like the wretched. As opposed to say making deals with the demons or trying to drain the world tree, I'd say eating demons and any other enemy who has any sort of magic to them is a far better alternative.

I would also contend that no race is beyond redemption. The Orcs achieved redemption from their curse, which was just as self inflicted, and they were actually working for the Legion as opposed to eating it. Meneldir

Seriously, Angry Ogre, play a BE character to lvl 20 (completing the Ghostlands quests), then tell me that the BE are evil. Saimdusan 07:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I would say there are evil Blood Elves. There are evil Humans. There are evil Orcs. Whether or not the ones the player is affiliated with being evil is what the debate is about I guess. I would say some. Lots of the higher officials of the Blood Elves are clearly a bit on the evil side. They try to follow a leader, Kael'thas, who is pretty much evil. Infact, he's a guy you gotta kill to reach Illidan. I would say that the faction of Blood Elves are more misguided. They betrayed humans for one thing. Yeah, sure, there were those humans who were "racist" towards Blood Elves, but I doubt the human populations were all to blame. But what I don't understand is how Blood Elves, who were faced with annoying racist leaders, didn't stick with the Alliance. Blood Elves are now allies with Trolls, their top enemies at one time, and trolls still seem to ahte High Elves, what makes Blood Elves any different? They changed? Gimme a break. I doubt a bit of racism would push a large part of a culture to betray those who helped them before to join a force they have been fighting against for ages. Regardless, I don't think the player-controlled Blood Elves and their faction try to be "evil." I like to think of them as Forsaken-related in terms of what they are to the Horde. The Forsaken Undead could care less about Orcs, Trolls, Blood Elves, etc. Windrunner and the Blood Elves have a history, but so do Humans and Windrunner. I would think that if they stopped making WoW expansions and moved to a WoW 2 (which, I'm just using as an example), Blood Elves would likely begin face the Horde with a sense of aversion. Maybe they would stop following Horde after they found that Kael was doing what he was, allying with Illidan and all. Their whole "lets follow the great Kael'thas" idea would be in ruins, maybe they'd think that following the Horde would be just as much a failure. Still, I don't think Blood Elves are evil. One thing that bugs me is how Blood Elves can't speak common. Yeah, yeah, the Horde and Alliance aren't sopposed to communicate, but that's just ridiculous. "Hey I survived with you through a couple of war, some battles, ect, but I'm gunna forget you're language." Anyways, those are my thoughts. TheDude 23:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * @TheDude - It wasn't racism that forced the Blood Elves out of the Alliance. Kael'Thas was fighting long and hard for the Alliance, only to be belittled by Garithos and sent on milk runs while Kael would have preferred to be on the frontline, have most of his forces routed elsewhere after being told to assault a heavily entrenched Scourge force, and then imprisoned and threatened with execution after accepting vital support from the Naga. Kael didn't leap into accepting Vashj's aid without giving it some serious thought, and had he refused her then, then the reprecussions for that would have been disasterous for the whole Alliance. You'd think that Scourge force would happily stop after munching on a few Elf corpses, or d'you think they would've carried right on with their new long-eared Ghouls into the heart of the Alliance forces?


 * Racism was a part of why the Blood Elves rebelled. It wasn't the whole and all, and it probably wasn't even the straw that broke the kodo's back. Having your very worth questioned was more of a reason. Having the lives of your people put on the line as basically a delaying tactic was more of a reason. Being cast out and sentenced to death for begrudgingly accepting aid from another force that had similar goals to that of the Alliance was definately a reason.


 * (Not specifically aimed @TheDude) As for the whole Horde war against the Alliance thing, consider this: The New Horde were willing to leave the Eastern Kingdoms and set up a new civilization. They tried to carve out a settlement peacefully, but Daelin Proudmoore's actions made things a whole lot worse. Then, once that little debacle was over, Jaina Proudmoore escalated the situation by quickly accepting the Draenei as full members of the Alliance. Now, you have to look at things from the Orc's point of view here. While Orgrim and Durotan were among the many that understood they were being duped by Kil'jaedan into war with the Draenei, they still didn't know if the Draenei were good or evil. Kil'jaedan's manipulation of the images of the Orcish ancestors had firmly planted the seed of doubt into the minds of every Orc that lived through those times, even if they doubted the reason for the war itself. Durotan was still somewhat leery about the time he met Valen as a child and Valen's subsiquent curiosity in what information he could pull from him. The link between Eredar and Draenei was soundly proven, yet the distinction between them was not. Even at the time when the Horde first left Draenor, it was never proven that the Draenei were not evil. So Orgrimmar is settled, Thrall starts thinking of officially declaring peace with the Alliance, and then Jaina, who was supposed to be his strongest tie and friend in the Alliance welcomes the oldest enemies of the Orcs into her faction without so much as informing him. The fact is that Jaina accepted the word and desires of space-demons who may or may not be evil over those of the Orc that fought alongside her to save the planet.


 * The Alliance isn't interested in peace with the Horde. While the Horde is willing to settle down on Kalimdor in Orgrimmar and Thunder Bluff, the Humans and Dwarves are willing to expend most of their military forces to assault the Horde on foreign lands (As much is said in the racial opening cinematic for both races). The Night Elves have also probably raised the hackles of the Tauren and Shamen of the Horde in the unnatural creation of Teldrassil, purely for the benefit of the Night Elves and not the rest of the people of Kalimdor, so they're not exactly flavour of the month. And then Jaina accepts the space-blueberries into her Alliance without so much as consulting with her friend Thrall about it. Ironically the only race in the Alliance that hasn't done anything specifically designed to anger the Horde are the Gnomes. Unless you count being annoying that is :P --Gordal 17:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)