Talk:Twink

Objectivity, Please
While nobody likes the level 19 with the Crusader Enchant, this article is meant to be informative, not a soapbox for denouncing and insulting people whom we disagree with. Some degree of twinking is encouraged by the game; I know my alts always have 4 Runecloth bags waiting for them when they reach town. Nothing is gained by purely point-of-view commentary; readers can evaluate for themselves. --Aeleas 00:13, 17 March 2006 (EST)

--- ''In a way, a twink is like a low-level version of an "epic'd out" level 70 character. However, it is quite impossible to have all the equipment that a twink would have without having a high-level alt, because it would be impossible for a character to have all that equipment and still be at that low a level without another source.'' -- [Opinion]The above statement is absolutely false. Money is easily made on the auction house by anyone with a small amount of time to invest (even starting with a tiny amount of money). I started on my own with no level 60 characters on a server and now have three twinks (19, 29, and 39) all with purchased libram enchants, AQ enchants, and the best weapon enchants for their class. This needs to be fixed... The word "impossible" does not belong. It is most definitely possible - and even easy and not time consuming. By the above logic, anyone level 19 with a cruel barb or any non-BoE blue is a twink because it is impossible to solo the instance at that level, kill VC and get the drop.--Yoimjamie 10:20, 1 October 2006 (EDT) -- The above statement is not always true, if ever at all. I have personnaly spent the last six months standing at the auction house doing nothing but earning gold just to twink my warrior, but when I put my hard-worked on character into warsong gulch I discovered that all the other tweaks had hundreds and hundreds of gold invested into their characters, something that I could never achieve due to people exploiting the auctioneer addon all the time and the fact that its impossible to make more than 1 or 2 gold profit by buying an item and reposting it at a higher price. I have about 70-80 gold invested in my twink, and that's from trading at the auction house for six months non-stop. It might work on a server with a different economy, I personnally play on warsong, but its clear to me that it isn't always possible.--XShadowSoulx 04:12, 8 August 2007 (UTC) -- No one except gold buyers and people with high-level mains can "truly Twink" a character. There is no Server with a market that is conducive to thousands of gold being made "easily". -- OK guys I've copy edited literally hundreds of WoWWiki pages and this is the first one that is completely outside of the boundaries of our accepted limits regarding neutral point of view. For that reason I have flagged this article with NPOV tag as a warning to readers. As someone who carefully weighs the nuances of wording in WoWWiki, I can't believe how this was written. The whole language smarts of dislike towards twinks, with examples too numerous to bring up. It's one thing to say "some people consider twinks to be..." but to start with a sentence that reads "A twink is a player character that exploits the PVP system..." or "in order to easily kill newer players as a compensation for a lack of real PVP skill" is just insulting to anyone who has tried to gear up a toon at the level brackets for some BG fun. --Teni (talk) 10:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, this page isn't designed for people to vent out about how much they hate twinks, but if people want to spend their time and money creating them, that's their choice. Replacing the page with a solid wall of text spewing about how twinks destroy the game isn't going to "fix" the issue, it'll just make people angry.  Keep the subjectivness to the discussion page :) --Cigawoot 14:57, 30 March 2006 (EST)

-- I've reverted a lot of POV in this article to reflect the norm. Please do not insert your opinions because we're trying to remain neutral here. --SCase

Twink vs. Power Leveling
The usage of Twink as a form of Power Leveling is foreign to me. Is this generally accepted usage? --[[User:Ceto|Ceto (talk) ]] 12:38, 6 Feb 2006 (EST)

I don't really think so. Power leveling is leveling a character quickly, twinking a character is maknig much more powerful then intended at the character's level.--Cigawoot 16:57, 14 March 2006 (EST)

They are distinct, and I've removed a few parts of the article which referred to power levelling as opposed to twinking. Things like XP reductions with a higher level character in the group don't really relate to the ability to twink.--Aeleas 17:15, 14 March 2006 (EST)

This is used to allow the twink to obtain BoP gear without the requisite experience gain. So experience minimisation is a tactic used to twink. An example is the rifle obtained from the Big Game Hunter series of quests in STV. --Dga 19:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Twinking for the use of power leveling is perfectlly acceptable to most people. The problem is...Twinks are vehemently opposed to leveling. The point of twinking is not to level but, to dominate a certain PVP bracket. Once they leave "thier" bracket, the twink's gear quickly becomes obsolete and they are only very well geared instead of twinks.

Drops
"" Are drop adjustments in groups based on highest level character? ""


 * I believe Blizzard has confirmed that they don't seed loot tables in this way, but I'm unable to find anything definitive.--Aeleas 17:15, 14 March 2006 (EST)


 * You'll find more green/blue drops with someone higher level in your party because you'll kill more things in the same ammount of time. Say you normally you kill 30 mobs in 30 minutes, and you get three green items. If you have someone higher level with you, and you kill 60 mobs in 30 minutes, you'll likely get six green items in the same time span as it took you to get three before, thus the illusion of better drop rates.--Darkfox190 15:21, 5 August 2006 (EDT)

Arguments for and against
What some people don't seem to understand however, is that different aspects of games, apeal to different people. Some enjoy the atmosphere of grinding/questing in groups and leveling to have a strong character to battle monsters with. Some enjoy the PvP aspect of pitting their strength and skills agains other actual people. Twinking is a result of this as different people have different styles and strategies, and ultimately they are battling it out to see who has the best strategy/skill vs eachother (hence PvP) instead of people trying to find the best strategy/skills vs monsters (hence PvE).

I'm not really clear whether the above paragraph is intended to be an argument for or against twinking. If the goal of PvP is to determine who has the best strategy and skill against other people, that's exactly what twinking undermines. Or is it arguing that twinking is just another valid strategy?--Aeleas 12:32, 16 April 2006 (EDT)


 * There should be an opinion-based section of the article with the various arguments for and against twinking, in a a fair manner. It's good to have subjectivity, just segregate it from the main content.  I think I'll add a section for arguments, stating that these are people's arguments for and against the act of twinking. --Cigawoot 13:13, 16 April 2006 (EDT) (EDIT: Nm, it was added).

I've moved the debate section to the end, since it is the most subjective portion of the article, and should come after the other more concrete sections. I've also split it into point form arguments for and against.--Aeleas 17:19, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

Twinking Debate
Moved from main article -- Adys (talk · contr) 13:38, 5 January 2007 (EST)

Twinking is controversial within the World of Warcraft community.


 * Common arguments for the position that twinking is unsportsmanlike include:
 * In order to gear up quicker via honor points, most twinks have been observed to hunt honor kills in BGs rather than assist the raid as a whole, resulting in more often losses of the battleground itself.
 * Low-level battlegrounds are decided based on who has spent the most gold, rather than based on skill.
 * Twinking encourages gold-buying, since purchasing the best items is faster than earning them via quests or PvP.
 * Players with low-level characters are unable to compete on an even footing in battlegrounds unless they already have a level 60 character and are willing to invest hundreds of gold in their low-level alt.
 * Since some players are bound to twink their alts, other players are forced to do the same to stay competitive.
 * Non-raiding players seeking to escape the gear imbalance found in level 60 battlegrounds are met with an even greater gear imbalance in low-level battlegrounds.
 * High-end enchants and arcana were not intended for low-level items.
 * Imbalances due to twinking drive away newer players that get "left behind" compared to twinked alts who tend to group less and solo more.
 * Twinking hyper-inflates the prices of low level BoE items, making them pretty much unreachable for casual players looking to upgrade their gear at the auction house.
 * What's the point of playing a game with no challenges?


 * Arguments in defense of twinking include:
 * Twinking is allowed by game mechanics, and is not considered in any way an exploit.
 * It is a common aspect of most gamers to seek out the best possible equipment for their characters. Twinking is simply another method of character progression, akin to gearing up a max-level character.
 * Players who have earned the gold with which to twink their low-level alts have earned the right to do so. It is a "rich man's game," requiring large sums of money, but everyone who wishes to play the game is free to do so.
 * this comment is absurd, it basically means 'i have played longer, therefore I have all the right to spoil the game for everyone who doesnt want to spend 4-8 months grinding to 70 just so they can participate in pvp
 * granted it is possible for a character to earn thousands of gold without leveling past 10, but auction house farming isnt fun and it takes time away from actually playing the game


 * Since honor and reputation aren't really needed at lower levels, it affects the community the least.
 * The battleground faction rewards are far better than any items that you can purchase on the auction house at that level, so most base equipment differences will be equalized if players stay in the same bracket.
 * Twinking speeds up leveling of alts, preventing wasted time re-hashing old content.
 * most twinks never level, there are a few who twink their characters just so they can quest faster, but if they really want to level as fast as possible they avoid the battlegrounds until higher levels


 * Anything that encourages staying with lower level characters can help population in otherwise low level areas (assuming they aren't exclusively in battlegrounds) as players increasingly run into the level cap.


 * I'm not a huge fan of speculation or opinion sections, like the one above, in articles, but a talk page isn't any more appropriate a place for them. It's important to keep talk pages restricted to editorial discussion of the article, without them becoming cluttered or completely overloaded with debates about the topic itself.
 * A solution I've found has worked well elsewhere is to split the debate or speculation into a separate article, such as with Old Gods and Old Gods speculation. Perhaps Twinking debate would be a good article.  This keeps the main article NPOV while providing an outlet for the POV discussion.--Aeleas 15:12, 5 January 2007 (EST)
 * As long as it has a bad ass mark, that the article isnt neutral I'm ok with it. --dotted 15:29, 5 January 2007 (EST)

Twink?
Twinking is a way for very rich players to dominate Battleground's. It is a way for highly developed players to show their skill at playing, but if you're really good at your class, and with some moderate gear, you can beat a twink. Just ask yourself: "What is that classes weaknesses?"

-The above statement is non-sensical. A level 19 twink is unbeatable no matter the skill applied. A twink has no weaknesses. Example: a Hunter is designed to kill a rogue. A casual hunter will never beat a rogue twink because... the rogue cannot be hit. His agility is comparible to a level 35 character. A hunter's kite is limited. When...not if...but when the rogue catches the hunter. The hunter will die in 3 moves. Twinking removes a classes weaknesses. No amount of skill can compensate for this. A casual player beating a twink is comparible to a level 19 beating a level 30 elite mob. It will not happen.

--I disagree. In ALL brackets with ALL gear, if a class is a true counter-class to another, it will beat that class. E.G., a warlock will almost always beat a mage of similar level, just as that same mage will beat a rogue the same level, and the rogue will beat the warlock. I was on a level 28 non-twinked mage yesterday and I went up against a 29 twinked warrior. I successfully kited him to death. If a class is a TRUE counter-class, it will beat its best class no matter of gear. -Iamchidemon

--this may already be a moot point, but both of you have some merit. It is true that some classes have advantages over other classes (and some even more so after nerfs, etc). At one time, a 19 dodge rogue with all the right enchants (+7ag to boots, 2x15 ag to weaps, 15 ag to gloves, feet of the lynx, a +40st/+12 ag leg patch on a +8 ag pair of leggings with + dodge etc. etc. etc.) was unbeatable by any physical melee class with the possible exception of a healer/warrior combo (heroic strike never misses) because their dodge rate was set at 60%+. If they hit evasion, they literally went beyond the 100% dodge possibility, meaning that even if there were +hit enchants at the time (there was only the one from Kharazan that could be applied to Nat Pagle's fishing boots from what I recall), then the melee person was at an especially difficult disadvantage. Spells might have hit, so it would have been different if a rogue were fighting a warlock, but a rogue versus hunter would have resulted in the rogue winning every time because the only thing the hunter could hit with was a fire trap (the only available trap at the 19s).

But not everyone went that specific route and _ONLY_ rogues could become effectively invincible (other than pally bubbles) to their enemies.

Rogues have suffered some pretty severe nerfs to dodge since then, however - the AGM had + dodge replaced with + stamina, + dodge to cloak disappeared for the 19s, dodge was increased to be the same as at level 35, etc. It's actually about equal between rogues and most other classes now.

However gear does STILL make the difference between a twink and the non-twinks. A twink hunter can still hit for 450-600 + with all 3 shots from multi-shot, a rogue can still slice and dice right through an opponent, and if an opponent only has 200 hit points, then it doesn't matter whether or not they are playing the counter class to another class. 200 hit points in the 19s is not enough to do well.

However, assuming all things are equal (equal gear + enchants), equal positioning and equal player skill, then and only then does class come into play. In fact, the battlegrounds are so rarely focused around the idea of a 1v1 fight that strategy matters more than "duel based" fights because fights are usually about numbers and heals rather than just a single player versus another player (or even a team).

Origins?
Does anyone know why'' these characters are called "twinks"? I only know the term as gay slang. Is it just an insult that was embraced?''
 * While "twink" is a gay slang term for a male bimbo, it was years ago adopted into paper and pencil RPG cirlces as a term refering to a young male player who cares little for the spirit of the game and just wants to "monty haul" the best gear and skills available, often breaking the game balance and pacing and spoiling the rest of the party's fun while doing so. This term was later adapted into WoW to describe the "twinks" to which this page refer.
 * There can be some ambiguity to the difference between a "twink" and a "power gamer." A power gamer is typically a player with a lot of experience and a very good understanding of the mechanics of the game, who enjoy making very powerful characters though not necessarily with the intent to use them seriously.  Being experienced players, most power gamers are typically respectful of the experience of the other people they are playing with and know what kind of impact a powered character might have on gameplay and are thus careful with their use.  On the other hand, a twink is typically someone with little experience with the game (often an early adolescent male) and only a basic understanding of the rules who simply seek powerful characters not for the sake of enjoying working with the rules, but simply for the sake of having powerful characters.  These players, typically due to malice or ignorance, show little regard for the experience of other people they are playing with and are content to spoil other players' fun.  Another common name for twinks is "munchkins", which as you can imagine was the inspiration for the popular Steve Jackson card game "Munchkin."  In my opinion, the internet has made the twink issue worse by providing a layer of anonymnity and physcial distbetween players.  Thus, a twink is free to act like a twink without fear of sanction (a twink in a paper and pencil game can be kicked out by the people he plays with, not so with most MMORPGs.)  - Fearless Son 04:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC):


 * I strongly disagree that twinks are not skilled or have luck of experience ("have little experience with the game" as you say). First, you need to realize that it take 1k plus gold to get twink gear. You could not have that much by playing first 19/29 lvl. So that means that twink at least played one of his chars to lvl70, and got flying, most likely epic flying mount by the time he started twink char. Think about that - can you get to lvl70 on pvp server(most ppl interested in creating twinks play on pvp servers, I guess) without getting understanding of straights and weaknesses of different classes? Without learning pvp techniques? Oh, and don't forget, you could not simply go on AH and and spend few grands on gear. Some of the best items are BoP bosses drops, other quest rewards. Not mentioning that it took me more then month to hunt down on AH BoE items I wanted for my twink. And I was checking AH everyday, plus watching trade channel. Have you ever were coming for a specific BoP item that have "low" drop rate from a boss? If not, you missed a lot of fun;) And yes - most twinks do their homework, you don't create twink to play it few times, it meant to be played at lvl you have chosen for quite some time... Not talking about experience twink gets after scoring many thousands kills, compare to few dozens his average opponents on WSG have.


 * Ah, lets go to "spoiling others fun" part. What could be possibly wrong with me helping my team to win and my opponents team to loose in every possible way I can? Oh, battle ground is not win-win game. Someone have to loose. And don't you think that it would be fair if team that have most experienced players would win? And that is how it works. Plus I do see on WSG lots of players lvl 13-17 range. Do you think they do not know that they going to face players lvl 19, by definition way stronger then they are? They know, and still come to die. And I come to kill. I think we both having some sort of fun. Even "twinks make some items too expansive" to buy for low lvls argument is laughable. That medal got other side - twinks creates market for those low lvls that are selling those items. Plus if you are 19/29 - just wait one more lvl, and blue items will get cheap again for you. Not mentioning that twinks do make market for low lvl herbalist/alchemists. My bags always full of portions, and i use them every time possible...


 * Last, but not least. We all are not equal even in real life. Some drive Ferraris, and some Toyotas. And I don't think there could possibly be anything wrong with that. If you could not be better then others in game or in real life - there would be no wow game and no inspiration in life.
 * Hunter19lvlTwink 17:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I was trying to make an explaination of the origin of the term in the classicial context of paper & pencil gaming (where it is highly prejorative,) not making an argument against twinking in WoW. - Fearless Son 01:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I Agree
I totally agree with Hunter19lvlTwinkand there is (*GENERALLY*) a way of telling if they know the game of WoW or not. The answer? Enchants. All the people with x2 fiery are idiots- random proc rate-same with crusader although there are minor reason for crusader and icy... is a cheap person slow-downer- you can't afford Minor Speed Increase on boots/shoes. What you should REALLY have is +15 Agility- 100% +30 Agility all the time.Oh, and a quality line about Ferraris and Toyotas ^^ Pvprules --Well... PvP rules... 16:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Rogue Twinks
Somebody wrote "This is because rogues gain the most from twinking," in the Examples section. This should be elaborated upon. Why do Rogues gain the most from twinking? Andostre 01:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I know they are popular...my guess would be that rogues are a strong class to begin with at level 19 (for example, they already have dual wield) and always have that nasty PvP advantage of stealth. Pale 23:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I will hazard a guess here about rogues: During BC and prior to some LK huge nerfs, rogues used to be able to get up to 65% dodge+ at level 19 and more than 100% at level 10 and below. That has been nerfed considerably over the course of the last year and a half or so, however rogues still have a few indispensible abilities available to them: They have sprint (on cooldown), they are the only class with invisibility at the 19s giving them the ability to ambush and do considerable damage (especially versus flag carriers with a double flag debuff), they still have considerable dodge and they are the only class that can dual-wield weapons early on in game.

As far as pure buffs go, however, it can be argued that hunters and shamans received the biggest buffs with the release of LK. Hunters saw a huge increase in their overall attack power due to their talent spec changes as well as receiving aspect of the beast for fast travel. Additionally, hunters saw few nerfs with LK and aimed shot in the 29s is considered by many to be the single most powerful move in the entire game. Shamans gained large increases in their offensive capabilities and are able top drop multiple totems at once, giving them the ability to heal, damage, snare and run away quickly with the spirit wolf form. Fluentinjapanese 06:05, 17 August 2010

Rogue Twinking
Several arguments made about twinks- one of them " Level 70's who can't play just mega-gear a low-level. WRONG. I have a twink BUT i can play, and have multiple twinks of multiple servers. Why? Because I enjoy it. I spent MY money how i liked, and i enjoy randomly kicking the asse of some poor loser who IS crummy at WoW. Also some people say that twinks are hardcore gamers... GET A LIFE. I have a twink guild, and to enter you have to be a twink, and you have to have a parrot summoned so that people laugh before I/we massacre them. Cheers.

Pvprules--Well... PvP rules... 16:19, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
SCase, please explain why you think that your version of the text is more NPOV than the current version. When the text says that twinks "exploit the gearing system" and are "primarily for the purpose of easily killing newer players", then it's not really NPOV. 13:58, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Gourra, the content prior to your reversion has been proven. If you believe your version is more accurate, please provide us with a source as wikis are used as a neutral ground and we do not care about your personal views.  You may dislike the concept of twinking, but that is not what wiki is for.  Please refer to the rules and regulations.  Further vandalism of this page will result in you being reported as a vandal if you fail to provide a source for your information.


 * SCase, the term "exploit" is a loaded term and is not appropriate. Blizzard do not view it as an exploit, else they would have retroactively prevented it. I should also point out Gourra is an admin, and may know the policies fairly well. For example WP:3RR. 20:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Kirkburn, that is all a matter of your personal opinion. Unless you work for Blizzard, please do not assume that you know what actions they would and would not take for specific things as such.  Whether or not Gourra is an admin, admins must also follow the rules and regulations of this place.  By putting in their own personal opinions without providing a source is a violation and does not show a good example for others posting.  My position still stands as you may not like the concept of twinking, but please keep your personal views out of this place and stop with this edit war.   17:04, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You are kidding, right? Blizzard's position on the topic of twinks is well known, especially to those who have been playing since the game was released. They prevented extreme twinking for the very latest enchants, but the practice of getting higher level gear than normally possible is entirely allowed within the frameworks of the game. It is not exploiting, a term which has a very specific meaning. Your version - - includes that term, plus says it's all about killing newer players. You might not like twinking, but don't let that cloud your view.  21:11, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Note that I have gone over your contributions to the article, and many of them are decidedly not neutral PoV. With edits like and  what are you really expecting? You do not "own" the article, nor do you have final say on what constitutes twinking. That is down to the consensus of the community.  21:25, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Kirkburn, telling someone something is "well-known" is not a reliable source. Did you know that it was well-known that the world was flat a long while ago?  Unless you can prove your position or provide a source, please stop feeding into your own POV and remember that wiki is a neutral ground.  Also, please refrain from posting threats in my talk page as your current one will be reported.  You too do not own this article and I would refrain from speaking as if you do.   17:35, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: SCase has been given a week off. 21:43, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Expansion cap twinking
I was playing AV with a lvl70 expansion capped character and there where lvl70+ players. Patch 3.3.3. Maybe the cap for AV was set like the other BG's?
 * They changed that a long while back, actually. Someone should track down which patch it was and update things accordingly. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 16:11, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Battlegrounds
I added the Whirlwind Battleground on Sundays because it has sufficient players who twink, but found that it had been deleted. I would normally suspect someone from an opposing battleground, but I won't point any fingers. As this is a wiki, however, it should be both neutral _AND_ complete. For that reason alone, I put information that I do not necessarily agree with as perhaps a personal best sort of thing, but I also recognize that there may be other players who have different fits and need the alternate information. This applies not only to battlegrounds, but also to gear as well (I have been editing the 19 twink hunter guide very, very heavily) and have tried to include gear and items from both factions (even faction specific stuff that I wish other players wouldn't or couldn't use). There ARE players out there who are only able to participate on the weekends (Sundays perhaps) and not everyone necessarily wants to play by the rules or standards set out by a single battleground. Please do not erase valid informationso long as it is valid, neutral and informative. Thank You. (talk) 2:11, June 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * I await Pizza19Hunter's comments on the battleground twinking. It is conceivable that some of the battlegroup's servers are on different times, and Pizza has not gotten into a battleground instance.  Could you mention (here) the timezone you note the twink battleground running here? --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 20:08, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

Ruin is the only battlegroup that still gets pops with experience turned off in the 10-19 bracket. Whirlwind used to have pops on Sundays after the fishing competition a couple of months ago, but no longer does. The majority of Whirlwind twinks have either quit or transferred over to Ruin. You are providing outdated information saying Whirlwind still gets pops.

Here's picture proof that WSG does not pop in Whirlwind.

http://img337.imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img337/1296/unavailable.jpg&via=mupload

Notice that it says "Average wait time: Unavailable". That's because WSG has not popped in months in Whirlwind.

Here's the armory of the character showing he is in Whirlwind.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/Maiev/Volc%C3%B4m

If/ you want more proof make a post in the Whirlwind forums and ask if they still get pops. They will let you know they don't.


 * Apologies, if you have taken offense, Pizza. With two contradictory positions that I cannot personally verify, I default to the position providing information.  For your picture, I note you were in the queue 21 seconds.  While "unavailable" does mean "a bg hasn't been run recently for that queue", I don't know how long between battleground runs is required to get that result.


 * Please note also that Whirlwind BG has servers on (at least) EST and PST. The fishing tourney starts at 2pm server time.  This leaves (again, at least) a three hour window of uncertainty for when "after the fishing tourney" actually is.  Thus my request to Fluentinjapanese for more information.


 * Fluentinjapanese, you originally provided the information that Whirlwind has 19 twink bgs running. Would you be so kind as to verify they are still run as you say?  I have no toons on that battlegroup; creating one would be an investment I'm not particularly eager to make just to verify one fact.  Please be sure to verify that you've set the character you're testing with to the "no experience" mode.  Please say what time (with time zone) you got in the battleground.


 * Pizza, I mistrust forums as reliable sources of information when more direct means are available. "Do twink bgs run on this battlegroup? - Yes" would have a high reliability; "Do ... ? - No" I believe would be much less reliable.  If Fluent can't come through describing when he last saw a live 19 Twink Bg run on Whirlwind, I'll certainly side with you.  Note, though, that it'll be Sunday July 4th for the next live opportunity to test, and that July 11th is much more likely to be representative of the average.  --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 22:04, July 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have been trying to confirm my information. When I left Whirlwind it still had an active XP off BG for the 19s, although it was mostly active on Sundays. I have indeed been away for some time and am attempting to get correct information from the forums as to whether or not it is still playable. From what I can tell the active vent is still available and there are still people who would like to twink/still have their twinks, but most of the games that are played have to be set up beforehand so that there are enough people to join. Currently the forums state that the BG is largely inactive, though many players feel that once Cataclysm comes into play with cross-battleground queues that twinking will become viable once again. In light of this, I will delete Whirlwind as a currently active battleground for 19 twinks. Fluentinjapanese 15:49, July 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * On a side note, I must agree with Eirik Ratcatcher that a simple screenshot of a 24 second waiting time is not enough to justify removing a BG from this wiki. Fluentinjapanese 15:49, July 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe he was mainly pointing to the "wait time unavailable". My objection to the "24 seconds in queue" is that I don't know the triggers for the "unavailable" message.  Be kinda silly if it only takes 45 minutes of no BGs queueing up to invoke "unavailable", yet a BG firing off every hour on the hour due to some premade action.  Still, since you can't say they're still active, I'm happy to call this settled at "no Whirlwind twink" until someone can show otherwise. --Eirik Ratcatcher (talk) 18:46, July 6, 2010 (UTC)