Talk:Drek'Thar

Does it really belong to the FW clan?
That old, blind and green guy sure plays a mean...uh...part in defending the Frostwolf Clan's lands from the encroaching Alliance intruders. (I bet he could whup your ass at pinball too) ^_^ --Illidan Rocks 18:30, 21 October 2006 (EDT)

--Well, he takes the spirits and his lands very seriouisly, you know. It's not like he's going to set down with Vanndar and have tea if the spirits were angered by the dwarves actions. He's at war. Being nice doesn't get you very far here, especially if the other leader isn't planning on playing nice as well. Eman91 02:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)Eman91

Yeah, but Alterac Valley doesn't belong to the Frostwolf Clan though. TM41

They do. That's why it's the Stormpike EXPEDITION.--Grid 02:40, 21 November 2006 (EST)


 * Hardly. Let me remind you that the Frostwolves first came to the Eastern Kingdoms (Alliance homeland) from Draenor (Orc homeland) and decided to live there, in Alterac Valley.(Think about it... Say for example that aliens came to Earth, invaded Hawaii and decided to set up residence there. The USA would almost certainly send in troops to take it back. Would you say that the American troops are the intruders or the aliens?). --TM41 20:25, 28 November 2006 (EST)


 * Eh? You have a point, but the valley itself has never belonged to the Alliance. Durotan and Drek'Thar settled there because it was a hiden and known by almost none of their enimies, Shadow Council and Alliance alike. They were exiled from Draenor, and the War with the Alliance had already broken out. It was the only remotely peaceful place in all of Lorderan during the Second War. The Frostwolves connected with the shamanistic spirits of the land, and created a society not so different from the one they used to live back home in Nagrand. Let us not forget that, over the years of living there, it began to feel like their home. The spirits watched over them, they could make friends with the wolves of the valley (naming them after their own clan, in fact). During the era of WC2, this was VERY rare and hard for an orcish clan to achive. Durotan is even buried there, with an engraving made by Drek'Thar himself near the burial grounds, right outside the Horde's entry tunnel. Even after the Frostwolves and the Warsongs freed the orcs and created Orgrimmar and Durotar, the Frostwolves didn't join them, and returned to, what Drek'Thar said outright, "Home". This decision was made to avoid conflict with Daelin loyalists to remain peaceful. However, an Expedition of dwarves, led by the Explorer's League, and imperalists, came in, and starting digging through the lands that the orcs had come to view as sacred, all in search of alleged ancient relics that too this day have yet to be discovered. Surely you can't call the Frostwolves, "invaders" after all that. I would think the true "invaders" are the Stormpikes. I'd be pissed if someone just came into my lands and starting settling and mining them, even if it was done with peaceful intentions, wouldn't you? The orcs reaction is a natural one based off offense and fear for their own. The Silverwings have done almost the same thing after the Warsong's starting setting up Lumber Camps for their expansions and settlement-building efforts. All human (or in this case, "orcish" or "elven") nature. Eman91 02:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)Eman91

I can see your reasoning, but your analogy is flawed. First of all, the dwarves never lived in Alterac. Infact nothing lived in the Alterac Mountains, and nothing has since the Frostwolf Clan settled there. The Stormpike are going there for arcaelogical reasons -- the Frostwolves are DEFENDING their home.

Moreover, Alterac was annihilated when it was discovered they were traitors. No human authority had claim over the land afterwards, and King Terenas kept it that way. Then with the destruction of Lordaeron it became a nullpoint. So because the Forsaken came and conquered it, Lordaeron is considered 'human' land now and all the Horde there are just visiting.

It belongs to the Frostwolves.--Grid 00:54, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * "nothing lived in the Alterac Mountains"


 * Actually, Baron Valimar Mordis barondom was located in the Alterac Mountains.Baggins 01:32, 29 November 2006 (EST)

Alterac moutains does not equal alterac valley. Angry ogre

Thanks for the new info.

And geez, he met a tauren before the 3rd War. lollore.--Grid 17:59, 29 November 2006 (EST)


 * What about Winterax Ice Trolls? --Sul&#39;jin 11:57, 3 January 2007 (EST)

The Alliance, although does not see eye to eye with the Horde regonizes what is Horde territory and what isn't, however the Alliance just decide they own Alterac Valley for some reason despite the fact the Frostwolves are their, and have lived their since the First War, so technically, despite what a member of the Alliance may say, Alterac Valley belongs to the Frostwolf and the Horde, end of story.-User:Hordesupporter


 * According to the alliance player's guide, the Stormpike clan have lived in the {"valleys of Alterac"" for a long time, and don't even know why the orcs and trolls would be after it.Baggins 14:26, 6 January 2007 (EST)

Mountains of alterac not the valley. If it was full of Dwarves it would have been mentioned in lord of the clans. Stop putting your propaganda here Baggins. Angry ogre

I don't know why you changed what I posted but the book says "valleys of Alterac" not "mountains". Stop altering quotes, or you will be banned again. This is a warning for anyone else who feel they have to remove or alter the quotes as well. This has nothing to do with propaganda, but rather make sure that words are not twisted, and intent of authors not changed.Baggins 15:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The southern portion obviously belongs to the Frostwolf clan. but the Stormpikes are trying to take it for their imperialistic goal. Vaandar admits it outright. An alliance Npc even admits its frostwolf territory. The Stormpike is just steal the land for their imperalistic(meaning The policy of forcefully extending a nation's authority by territorial gain) imperative goal. Vaandar admits it outright in his book. Zarnks 05:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually according to the game its Ironforge, and Muradin Bronzebeard that wants if ro the "imperialistic" goal. You obviously haven't played the quest, "The Sovereign Imperative". He's the one that gave the original order, the Stormpike Guard and Vaandar are following Muradin and Ironforge's orders. However the land was originally Stormpike Clan's home territory Historically. The "Dwarven Highlands". It doesn't and never belonged to Ironforge of course.Baggins 16:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The Frostwolves have lived in there portion of the valley for years. The Stormpikes don't own the whole valley. Zarnks 22:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's just say it's disputed and leave it at that.  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  19:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The Stormpikes are up to no good here. In addition to the stuff in "The Sovereign Imperative" quest, Prospector Stonehewer will offer you some rewards after you complete the quest she gives to kill Drek'thar. She says "As a hero of the Stormpike, you may choose one item from these recently plun... er, recovered treasures." Right. "Recovered."--Illidan Rocks 13:41, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The Orcs have nothing to do in AZEROTH! Alterac valley has been in Stormpike lands for centuries, and they want to recover it. And Muradin wants to drive the Orcs out of Lordaeron because he is at WAR with the Horde. I don't know what Illidan Rocks means by "good", but if murdering Frostwolf civilians is "no good", then I agree, they are up to no good. But how do you call retaking Lordaeron for the Alliance, securing Alterac for the humans, dwarves, gnomes and high elves who live in Lordaeron, driving off their enemies from their lands, and recreate an empire with sufficient shape to oppose the Scourge and the Legion, I call this good for Ironforge and for the Alliance. War is the exact way to solve one's problem without taking into account the opponent's desires.-- K )  (talk) 13:48, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Kirochi, for the LAST TIME, the Alterac Valley area was NOT a part of the Lordearon Kingdom. It was never a part of it. The dwarves are mining for ancient relics, and when the Frostwolves attacked them out of spiritual offense, they called the Guard in to take the Valley for themselves. Alterac Valley is the only place the Frostwolves and Drek'Thar have been able to call home since their exile from Draenor. Stop trying to glorify every aspect of the Alliance, you have to admit that the Stormpikes, while their intentions seem respectable enough, are kind of going out of their way to take a valley away from its inhabbitants. If you actually start playing a Horde char, you'd understand the Frostwolves viewpoints and lore a lot better. Eman91 05:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)Eman91.


 * I think the Alterac Valley situation is a bit of a sly reference to the ongoing Israel/Palestine conflict; conflicting historic claims to an area of territory influenced by strong religious and cultural contrasts. I believe that both the orcs and the dwarves bear an equal amount of blame for the continuation of the conflict (never mind who started it) as neither is willing to back down or advance peace negotiations. ^^ -- 15:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe. But the Frostwolf have been here for... What? A score and a half? This does not match the millennia of Palestinian dominion over the Holy Land, and the equally same time when Hebrews possessed Judea, though this comparison is not silly at all.-- K )  (talk) 17:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

NPOV
Will N3rf please discuss the neutrality issues? If nobody clarifies in two standard days, I'm removing the tag.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:38, 3 January 2007 (EST)

I don't see a reason to put that information up there except to inflame a weasely notion that Horde somehow have an advantage in AV. Especially considering the guy's name is N3rf.--Zexx 03:10, 3 January 2007 (EST)


 * I'm calling it then; NPOV not compromised. And don't use the name; another user has a similar name and has been a helpful contributor.-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 11:10, 3 January 2007 (EST)

Capitalization
This article is pretty split on "Drek'thar" and "Drek'Thar" - what's the verdict on which is correct? --Flyspeck 13:58, 6 January 2007 (EST)

What is it in game? Whatever the character name is in game should be how it is spelled here. "Drek'Thar"Baggins 14:14, 6 January 2007 (EST)

Drek on Garadar
I just saw him on Garadar entrace on theses days, what are he doing there? ReiserFS

He is part of Thrall's entourage visiting Greatmother Geyah.--Zexx 02:47, 31 January 2007 (EST)

Blindness
I read somewhere Drekkie was blind from birth, and now he became blind for reasons not specified. What is true?


 * The issue is unclear to me. When I read ROTH, I thought Drek'Thar's early "sight" was due to his connection to elemental spirits allowing him a deep insight and seeing those things around him. Later when he switched demonic magic, it may have allowed him similar kind of magical sight. Its true that manual for World of Warcraft and a few other sources state he was blind from birth.


 * Others have interpreted that he had actual sight, rather than blindness in ROTH, believing a retcon has occured.Baggins 15:59, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Class
Due to his abilities, maybe he is a Battle Shaman too? N&#39;Nanz 08:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Swords
So does this mean Shamans (well Far Seers) can wield swords?  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  19:18, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Shamans no, Far Seers yes. Can blizzard change that at any time? yes.   20:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Before the evil classes
What was Drek before he was a warlock since he would have been the same age as like Gul'dan or Ner'zhul when warlockery came to Draenor, right? I think it's odd he didn't have a class before warlockery came to Draenor.  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  02:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * From what I can tell, he was a shaman, then he became a warlock during the war on draenor, and then after the Frostwolves were exiled in the First War, he became a shaman again, and has since evolved into a far seer. Busy guy. Eman91 22:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)Eman91


 * He was a shaman before the rise of warlocks on Draenor, as stated in Rise of the Horde. When the elements would no longer heed the call of the shaman, many of them turned to warlock magics as an alternative. I believe Drek'thar was the first shaman of the Frostwolf Clan to begin studying warlock magic. --Jpsblue 23:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably the only one, in fact. And he abondoned it after being exiled by Blackhand and Gul'Dan, and rediscovered shamanism. Eman91 02:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Eman91 25 February 2008 20:28 (PST)


 * Nay, not the only one. Every single shaman in the Frostwolves clan converted to warlock magic.-- K )  (talk) 23:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Proof please. Zarnks 05:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

ALL shamans of the Frostwolf clan did become warlocks. Even the youngest. See Ghun. No this is not a topic up for debate. I can already see where this is going. 05:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm going to elaborate a bit more on this. It's known the shaman were abandonded by the elements (or vice versa depending on your point of view). The shaman were all said to have become warlocks. If you are looking for the exact phrase "every last shaman of the frostwolf clan became a warlock" you probably aren't going to find it, but the book makes it very clear. Nowhere is it specificly stated "the shamans of the frostwolf clan are not actualy pink bunnies in disguise" but its no less than 100% safe to assume they are not. 05:30, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

That is wrong. Alot of their shamans became warlocks but clearly not all. Zarnks 05:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Is Geyah ever said to be a Shaman. The only thing i can find that even implies she could be is her knowledge of herbalism. But that doesn't constitute her as a shaman. 05:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

She can speak with spirits like Kashur. Your grasping at straws here. Zarnks 06:09, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hardly. I'm well aware of that and saw that weak arguement coming. In RotH only shaman could do that. In WoW everyone can. Could be a retcon or maybe times change. See To Meet Mother Kashur. But we really don't know of she was a shaman. 06:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Weak argument hardly. Only shamans can speak to the spirits. She clearly used her prowess as a shaman to make that potion. Shamans losing their powers is given a mention in quest text. "Oshu'gun - the diamond mountain - was once sacred to my people. It was there that the clans would gather every year to celebrate the springtime festival. It was there that our shaman communed with the honored ancestors. It was the center of our culture - until the shadows overtook us. When the clans became a horde, the spirits of Oshu'gun fell silent. The ancestors turned their backs on us."

Remember Gameplay does not equal lore. Zarnks 06:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Read the quest i just linked. Times have changed. The spirits can be seen and spoken to to anyone whom they will it. 06:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Her knowledge of the spirits heavily implies she is a shaman. And I believe she has shaman abilities in pvp. Zarnks 06:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Actualy that potion wa made by Geyah. ;) Even in RotH the warlocks still knew how to make potions, bandages, treat wounds, etc... Potion making is not mutualy inclusive to shamanism. Furthermore more than once you are refered to your race in the questline. Last time i checked Blood Elves and Forsaken couldn't be shamans. And if you want to take the overused gameplay =/= lore arguement we could say the entire questline is not part of the lore. 06:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * And Daelin Proudmoore was a paladin in TFT. Her skills as she attacks mean nothing. Tyrande is an archer but when attack her in Darnassus i don't seem to recall and bows. She also says our shamans, implying she is not one. 06:28, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Except Daelin was nothing like a paladin, most of his abilities relating to water and the arcane. Tyrande's abilities are reflecting her role as a priest plus you're attacking her up close. Saying our shamans doesn't mean a thing, a soldier saying our soldier are suffering doesn't make him not a soldier. Her knowledge of spirits and abilites paint her a shaman. Zarnks 06:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC) Zarnks 06:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

And yet she hardly meantions elementals or posses any abilities exclusive to a shaman. And is never called a shaman. 06:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure all of the Frostwolf shamans became Warlocks when the elements abandoned them. Warchiefthrall 20:20, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Rise of the Horde
Can I tell, in his early history, that he is one of the few filthy war criminals that still live after participating in the Draenei genocide? That he is today held as a hero though he is the murderer of countless children? Or does his puny redemption hide all those terrible and ignominious doings?-- K )  (talk) 23:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay here my input (And yes i've read the discussion on both Kirochi and Sky's page). The wiki is meant to inform, not condemn. That's all. 08:47, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Kirochi, what is your problem? This is just like the pathetic arguement you made in defense of Vanndar Stormpike. He made mistakes in the past, and he rediscovered the path of the shaman, probably with Durotan's help. He still hasn't forgiven himself, even if Thrall, Orgrim, the other shamans, and the spirirts have. What you said sounded like something Daelin Proudmoore would say, not an informed bookkeeper. Eman91 00:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)Eman91


 * Oh come on, who are you to pretend my point is pathetic? Do you really want me to show you how dumb what you just said sounds to me?
 * No, Vanndar Stormpike's argument wasn't pathetic. It's already over and caused sufficient trouble not to be opened again.
 * Who the hell cares if a politician has qualities if he perpetrated atrocious war crimes? And yet he's the chieftain of the Frostwolf clan, not wondering a second why the Alliance stays hostile towards them. Maybe Daelin Proudmoore thought that Orcs could never be redeemed, which I believe is wrong, but they should be somehow less openly hostile when dealing with the Alliance, withdrawing aggressive troops and leaders such as Drek'thar with a shadowy past. I believe, on the contrary of the admiral Proudmoore, that Drek'Thar can be redeemed and forgiven. But what he did must not be forgotten! Forgive but don't forget, that's what I say, as an informed bookkeeper.
 * Don't take any offense, Eman91, but please DO NOT assume I speak without cautious preliminary thinking and history analysis. It pisses me off quite a lot.-- K )  (talk) 08:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Cool off, both of you. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 13:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Come to think of it, I don't think I can recall a source that list Drek'thar as a hero of the Horde. He's certainly widely respected among the horde for his efforts in turning them back to shamanism, helping to free the majority of them from the prision camps, and continuing to support them during their establishment in kalmidor, but I've never heard him refered to as "Hero".

In any event, he's certainly not respected and praised for his actions during the war with the draenei, or in early conflict with the humans. I believe references were made to him feeling rather regretful about those times in Rise of the Horde. In any event, forgiving or forgetting isn't necissary. People can hold grudges all they want. But continuing to make conflict based on those grudges is the problem. Yea, the orcs harmed a lot of people in the past, but continuing to seek vengance for those wrong doings will only bring more suffering. Maybe its not justice, but its the only way they survive.Tweak the Whacked 06:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Absolutely. He was a warlock and murderer for the war against the Draenei on Draenor, but after the Frostwolvs are exiled, he becomes a shaman again, possibly because of Durotan. After Durotan is murdered by treasonous warriors sent by Orgrim to lead him to safety, Drek'Thar must lead the clan, and any other orcs who wished to return to shamanism. It was Drek'Thar who taught Thrall of shamanism, and the ancient traditions of orcs, and who continues to live in Alterac Valley to this day, having grown a spiritual connection to it. So, I disagree with Kirochi, Drek'Thar is a good person, if not somewhat having a questionable past in the early days of the Horde. Eman91 01:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)Eman91


 * No reason why. Becoming a shaman again and teaching a guy how to wield the spirits and elements after murdering children in dubious war crime conditions are in absolutely no way a sign of being a good guy.-- K )  (talk) 14:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This is what we call a "redemptive path", Kirochi. Whether or not it's a sign of being a good guy, it is a sign of regret, remorse, and a quest for redemption that may never come. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 16:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Remorse my rear, he's still killing Draenei nowadays and hasn't apologized. Apologize to the elements? Who cares, the elements haven't suffered any genocide at his hands. Do you get my thought?-- K )  (talk) 08:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope, not at all. But as long as it's not in the article it doesn't matter to me. 08:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm going to ignore the "still killing Draenei" comment because A) it is in a military or para-military situation, and they are fighting back, usually with rather large hammers, 2) PvP instances are very sketchy lore-wise, and Zed) you're being to pig-headed. Warthok's right, keep this out of the article. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 15:20, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "still killing Draenei?" It is a PVP instance, and Draenei weren't fighting for the Stormpike until BC came out. And the Draenei aren't exactly proposing that they sit down and have tea with him, are they? They are essitionally members of the Stormpike's assasination squad, not the innocent children from Draenor half a century before. Eman91 05:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)Eman91

Killable?
Is it really right to tag him as "killable"? He is not even a PvE boss, "killable" tag suits them way better and Drek'thar is definitely being "killed" a thousand times everyday.


 * I'm not sure if i agree or disagree, but the fact he's marked as killable in WoW (he IS killabe in wow) but alive in the lore sense really makes the whole point moot. 11:08, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes but I thought we were using "Killable" tag only for PvE bosses for they are the main target. Drek'Thar and Vanndar are not actually in the same tune of the PvE ones. Neltharion (talk) 02:16, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't recall it being said we use kilable for PvE bosses exclusively. But i see your point, espeialy with city leaders being killable. UGh i'm looking for the policy page but i can't find it. 02:38, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Can't find it but i found something. Talk:Thrall. To quote ragestorm: "By the same token that Sylvanas or Tyrande or the other racial leaders are: in PvP realms, and not as part of the plot." 02:43, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * So, since all the faction leaders are marked as "alive" rather than killable, shouldn't Drek'Thar also share it too? Because it's just the same drill with different positions. They are "PvP killables" and I really think that it's not the same way with the PvE bosses.. Wing Commander Ichman and his Horde counterpart (can't remember the name, not fond of PvP actually) have shown up in Netherwing region after they got "killed" tens of thousands times over. Drek'Thar also showed himself in Garadar. PvE bosses do not appear in more than one places (with exception of Kael'thas but even then his reappearence was connected to his defeat in The Eye). Neltharion (talk) 02:56, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Found it. Template:Npcbox, down under status. "Alive", "Undead", "Active" (when referring to gods, demigods and related beings), "Imprisoned," "Deceased" or "Unknown." If imprisoned or deceased a short summary can be included. Characters killed by players in WoW are to be listed as "Killable" regardless of circumstances. is the only part that bothers me. But like you said thrall and tyrande aren't treated the same so I'd go ahead and remove it. Same for Vandarr Stormpike. Theres some conflict in the policy i might talk to ragestorm about that. 03:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * "Characters killed by players in WoW are to be listed as "Killable" regardless of circumstances." This part can very well be updated to exclude the faction leaders and battleground bosses (there are only two of these anyway), and there won't be any conflict. I can remember the first time I joined here, Drek'Thar's status was "Alive" only. Neltharion (talk) 03:11, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Not a big deal, thinking it over it should have been obvious from the begining. And something written in the npcbox template is not officvial policy. 03:15, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Image
Could we please get a better image of Drek'thar? He isn't supposed to be physically powerful or dual wield bloody swords. He's generally a non-aggressive character and the current picture gives readers the wrong impression about the character. Copperblast (talk) 03:20, May 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's official art for him. Artwork > in-game and most definitely > an image from an unreleased adventure game. 03:22, May 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * There's got to another piece of official artwork of him. He doesn't even use those swords ingame anymore. Copperblast (talk) 03:24, May 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you can find updated official artwork, go ahead and replace it, until then, it is the BEST image we have for him. 03:27, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Fan art
I believed that only Blizzard recognized fan arts were allowed. Am I mistaking?

17:59, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't think we included fan art at all, period. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:03, September 14, 2010 (UTC)

Bit of inconsistency (blindness)
Pardon me, but while casually reading up on Drek'thar story, I've noticed a slight inconsistency in its language. Within the first paragraph and main description, Drek'thar is said to be, "blind since birth", but within the "Training the future Warchief" section, he is referred to as, "the now-blind but powerful Farseer", only sometime after his acquisition of the chieftain rank within the Frostwolf clan. Vraul Jawrip (talk &middot; contr) 20:17, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Warlords of Draenor
We are going to see Drek'Thar before and how he got blinded from his shamanism. I suggest making the WoD page for him. -- Darksora110 (talk) 4:50, December 9, 2013