Talk:Second War

Style
Very nicely done Fiendish :) Just wasnted to give my compliments --Tinkerer 12:22, 26 September 2006 (EDT)

This isnt entirely correct...you have a few parts missing (like the fact that Orgrim was about to finish off Lordaeron in 1 final operation, but the treachery of Gul'Dan destroyed that) and you have the part of Day of the Dragon incorrect...Grim Batol wasnt taken until the war was over, and Nekros was trying to rebuild the army in order to start it anew. Lord Prestor didnt happen until then. Overall, quite good, but a few problems here and there (none that really effect the overall outcome, however)--Haddon 03:37, 28 September 2006 (EDT)

Argh, so much editting needed. I just added basic information (source: novel Tides of Darkness and WCII), but there's a lot of grammar mistakes I can't be bothered to deal with right now, sorry! -RampageA

How long did it last?
I'm wondering it because we know that at his very beginning the Silver Hand was formed and now we know through the Ashbringer comic that during the battle at Blackrock Spire, Alexandros Mograine was already a paladin (or at last a warrior wielding healing powers) even though he was not one of the first appointed Knight of the Silver Hand. I think it takes a very long time in order to train as a paladin. --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 20:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In truth, the very first paladin's really didn't train to be paladins, many were just knights who where adherants to the Church doctrine. When the calling came, they were promoted into paladins. As for length of the war, you can get an idea from the various timeline.Baggins (talk) 20:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, very likely. This makes Mograine not a full paladin perhaps did he never become one, who knows!? :) --N&#39;Nanz (talk) 21:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Sure he's a full paladin, in the same way that Uther, Saiden Dathrohan and Turalyon are full paladins. They got promoted at the beginning of the war. As for all the paladins that were promoted, we haven't been given names, but we know new recruits were added in throughout the war. You got recruited into the organization, you don't train to become one. Additionally, a level 1 paladin (to use RPG terminology) with limited skill is still a paladin, as much as the epic level paladin is... Just one is far more powerful than the other.Baggins (talk) 21:15, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Northrend?
In Day of the Dragon, Krasus (who went to seek Malygos' aid) came across several Orcs frozen by the Aspect and mused how the war got even this far north. Any idea why the Horde would go to Northrend, the Alliance only had few villages there. Gorvar (talk) 16:01, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Sylvanas?
After the elf king decided to join the war, it's very clear Sylvanas lead their forces, not her sister, so the commanders part should make a change. SLOWPOKE (talk) 18:22, 07 Jan 2010 (PTC)
 * Sylvanas led the forces of Quel'thalas, Alleria led the cadre of rangers assisting the human armies and played a far larger role. You could make an arguement for adding Sylvanas (one i'll back) but theres no reason to remove her sister. 03:45, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

No, after the elves really joined the war, Alleria clearly stated Sylvanas was "Commander of our forces", she was under her sister's command. Alleria joined the war earlier, but from military view, Sylvanas was clearly the commander of all elf forces. rather than her sister. Alleria only got promoted to captain after this. Sylvanas was the Ranger General. SLOWPOKE (talk) 11:44, 08 Jan 2010 (PTC)


 * I didn't say she wasn't. I said Alleria was far more involved. Alleria may not have been THE commander but she was A commander. Like i said: you can add Sylvanas, but not at the cost of replacing her sister, and i would suggest Anasterain and Magni be added as well to be fair all around. 19:45, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Nah, we can not decide military issues about who was more involved in the book.

Alleria did not even represent the official order of the kingdom, she just came by her own will, with a few rangers. After the elf really joined the war, Sylvanas's forces definitly was much more important than just her sister's a band of rangers, and these were under her command now.

SLOWPOKE (talk) 11:49, 08 Jan 2010 (PTC)


 * Slowpoke try to understand what i'm saying. It has nothing to do with rank or being the main one in charge. By that logic we should remove Turaylon, Danath, and Khadgar as well. It's about those who had an official capacity in the war. Alleria had an official capacity, she was ranger captain. Her sister should be added, but by no means should Alleria be removed. Take a step back and look at the big picture, do you really think Alleria Windrunner should be removed from a list of commanders in the Second War? No. 19:55, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Ok I think I misunderstood. I just think Sylvanas should be added and from military view she was more important than her sister. SLOWPOKE (talk) 12:35, 08 Jan 2010 (PTC)
 * Agreed. 20:40, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Next war link
I think it should just link to Invasion of Draenor since this chain is for the war pages. But of course it should be filled out with more than just a link to the in-game book. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 19:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree, but I still prefer (even more until to the article be developed properly) a link to both pages. 20:02, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * That is an extremely sloppy way to link to both pages. Especially because of the very unfinished nature of the "war" page.-- 00:51, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Horde's Hex-general
Who was Horde's hex-general ?(Yuvyuv111 (talk) 12:33, 26 July 2015 (UTC))

Statistics
Here are all quotes from Warcraft books that give an estimation on how large in number the armies were during the Second War, and what the casualties were. I'm putting these here for future reference in case they can be of use later, since Blizzard doesn't typically worry with statistics.

Lothar speaking to the human kings in Tides of Darkness, puts Horde in tens of thousands: ''“Your Majesties,” Lothar began, “I thank you for attending this meeting, and for listening to what I have to say. I am no poet or diplomat but a warrior, so I will keep my words brief and blunt.” He took a deep breath. “I must tell you that my home, Stormwind, is no more.” Several of the monarchs gasped. Others paled. “It fell before a Horde of creatures known as orcs,” Lothar explained. “They are terrible foes, as tall as a man and far stronger, with bestial features, green skin, and red eyes.” This time no one laughed. “This Horde appeared recently and began harassing our patrols,” Lothar continued, “but those were just their raiding parties. When their full force marched we were astounded. They literally have thousands, tens of thousands, of warriors—enough to cover the land like a foul shadow. And they are implacable foes, strong and cruel and merciless.”''

More, revealing Horde had number advantage in First War as well: ''“If they are so dangerous, why did the wizards there not deal with them?” Graymane demanded. “Why did they not use their magic to end the threat?” “Because the orcs possess magic of their own,” Antonidas countered. “Potent magic. Most of their warlocks are weaker than our own wizards, at least from what my fellows reported, yet they have far greater numbers and can work in unison, something my own brethren have never found easy.” Khadgar was sure he heard some bitterness in the old archmage’s voice, and understood it well. If there was one thing every member of the Kirin Tor valued, it was his independence. Getting even two wizards to work together was difficult enough—the thought of managing more than that was almost beyond imagining. “Our wizards did fight back,” Lothar explained. “They helped turn the tide of several battles. But the archmage is correct. We lacked the numbers to stand against them, magically as well as physically. For every orc spellcaster killed, another rose to take his place, and two more beside him. And they traveled with raiding parties and smaller armies to protect them from more mundane dangers, lending their magic to increase the power of the warriors around them.” He frowned. “Our greatest wizard, Medivh, fell to the Horde’s darkness. Most of our other wizards were lost as well. I do not think magic alone will turn them back.”''

Assault on Hillsbrad, portrays thousands as an expandable number: ''Proudmoore’s navy had already assaulted the ships during their passage, destroying several vessels and sending thousands of orcs to the bottom of the ocean, but the Horde was so numerous they had merely picked off the outermost ships while the rest sailed on past. There would still be fighting aplenty when they landed. [...] More orc warships were reaching the beach, and orcs were pouring from them by the thousands. Turalyon saw at once that they would be overwhelmed if they stayed.''

Invasion of Quel'Thalas, portrays thousands as inexpandable: ''“But we are heading to Quel’Thalas, are we not?” Maim asked, the strange name causing him some difficulty. “Why not sail as close to it as possible, then, and be there long before the humans emerge from the Hinterlands?” “Because the elves will never let our ships pass unmolested,” Doomhammer pointed out. “Zul’jin says they are expert archers, and we would be trapped on the ships while they rained arrows down upon us. We would lose thousands, whole clans, before we could even reach the shore to fight them.”''

Perenolde explaining his betrayal to Hath, still in tens of thousands: ''“Yes, I would have us conspire with them!” Perenolde snapped, losing his composure. “Because I would have us survive!” He let his anger, and his terror, boil over into his words. “Do you have any idea what we are facing? The Horde, the entire Horde, is planning to sweep through these mountains! Through our home! Do you have any idea how many of them there are? Thousands! Tens of thousands!” Hath nodded grudgingly, as did a few of the others—they had seen the same reports he had. “And do you have any idea what these orcs are like? I have seen one of them, no farther away from me than you are now. They are enormous! Nearly as tall as trolls, and twice as wide! Massively muscled, with tusks and fangs—this one carried a hammer it would take three men to lift, and he waved it about as if it were a child’s toy! No man could stand against that! They’ll kill us all, don’t you understand? They’ve already destroyed Stormwind, and Alterac will be next!”''

Siege of Lordaeron City: ''Terenas glanced up and saw a soldier shouting and pointing beyond the walls. Thinking the orcs had massed for another attack, he glanced out, following the man’s gesture, but the soldier was pointing up rather than down. Terenas looked, and almost gasped as he saw a dark figure soaring toward them. “Ready archers,” he called, staring at the shape, “but hold fire until my command.” Something seemed strange about it. Why send a single flier of any sort, when there were thousands upon thousands of orcs smashing against the walls below? Was it a scout? A spy? Or something else?''

After the Siege of Ironforge and Bronzebeard dwarves joining Alliance, they only now start to outnumber the Horde slightly: ''"I dinna see any ambushes," Kurdran said, frowning as if the question were a slight to his scouting ability. "The entire Horde, such as it is, is moving in a solid mass back to the Spire." He glanced at Lothar, as if sensing the Champion's next question. "Aye, the Wildhammers will stay with ye as well. And altogether we outnumber them, though not by a large margin," he confirmed. "I don't need a large margin," Lothar replied. "Just a fair fight." His face was stern. "Five days, then," he told the rest of them. "In five days we finish this."''

Battle of Blackrock Spire aftermath, portrays four hundred as not a significant force: ''The battle that followed was surprisingly quick. Many of the orcs had seen Doomhammer’s defeat, and their leader’s collapse sent them into a panic. Many fled. Others dropped their weapons and surrendered—these were rounded up for imprisonment and, despite his earlier statement, Turalyon found he did not have it in himself to kill helpless prisoners, no matter what they done beforehand. Many did stand and fight, of course, but they were disorganized and dazed and proved little match for the resolute Alliance soldiers. “A band of them, perhaps four hundred strong, is fleeing south through the Redridge Mountains,” Khadgar reported an hour later, after the combat had ended and the valley and grown quiet save for the rustling of the men, the moans of the wounded, and the growling of the prisoners.''

Grom thinking about the Second War in Beyond the Dark Portal, expecting them to have won by numbers alone: ''Where had the Horde gone wrong? They had outnumbered the blades of grass that had once covered the plains and the drops of water comprising the ocean! When they marched, the thunder of their footsteps shattered mountains! How could such an army fail?''

Attack on Nethergarde Keep, not as many in number: ''"Damn . . . there are hundreds of them," Danath whispered, watching the Horde literally fill the plain before the keep and advance in a great sheet of flesh and weaponry. In the thick of the battle, he had not been able to notice the sheer numbers. "Indeed," Khadgar said. The young-old mage did not seem concerned. "Not as many as during the Second War. though—either they lost much of their strength in those battles or they are withholding part of their full force now." [...] Alleria shielded her eyes from the glare of the sun. She could see better than he. and when she gasped. Turalyon knew he'd been right. "It's under attack!" she cried. "The Horde— Turalyon—it's like seeing the force from the Second War all over again! There must be hundreds of them!"''

ShadowShade81413 (talk) 03:12, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Ogrim led two major assaults
I think that it should either be considered as retconned, or that the main text of the article should be updated, because right now only the introduction mentions an assault though the Thandol Bridge. Xporc (talk) 16:46, 15 August 2017 (UTC)