Talk:Deathwing/Archive1

Consorts and mating
Hmmm... If he wasn't able to get a female dragon before he was ran off...  How were Nefarion and Onyxia born? Kakwakas 21:56, 16 Aug 2005 (EDT)


 * Possible Nefarian and Onyxia were alive before and Deathwing was just lacking females to mate with... Maibe 15:39, 19 Jul 2006 (EDT)

Deathwing had four consorts at the time of the Sundering- one or two of them are probably the parents of Nefarion and Onyxia- or her could have found another dragon to mate with in the years since. nothing says they were born after Grim Batol, does it?- Ragestorm

I read somewhere he stole a few reds during thre battle of grim battol. This migh explain the odd redish color to some black dragons like teremus and the drakes in BS--Darkling235 01:07, 4 May 2006 (EDT)

Did any one forget Neltharions Alliance with Ner'zhul and his involvement in the events of the Dark Portal? Someone please add that in-OtherHalfofYang

By the time of Day of the Dragon, all female black dragons were dead. However, he managed toescape with a clutch of red dragon eggs. The most probable explanation is that he corrupted these eggs in his own image and thus the corrupted black dragons were born.--Grid 01:28, 21 November 2006 (EST)


 * Where is it said he actually managed to escape? if it's being assumed that Alextrasza is holding him prisoner, then surely the whole point is that he didn't escape. Anyway, Nefarian (and probably Onyxia, too) are far to large to have been born after the Grim Batol incident.--Ragestorm 09:31, 21 November 2006 (EST)

It doesn't, but the book never says he was caught either. And at the very least, it does not mean he was caught immediately after Rhonin destroyed the Demon Soul. Remember - the entire black flight was utterly annihilated by Deathwing himself in his rage. The only way they could have survived and repopulated was if he managed to find some sort of safe haven, which would be Blackrock Spire.

It could also be possible that he's not another planet entirely gaining new allies.--Grid 13:43, 21 November 2006 (EST)

For those still saying Onyxia and Nefarian hatched from those red eggs: DoD also says Alexstrasza and Korialstrasz wanted to follow the other's in the hunt after the stolen eggs are safe and sound again...--Maibe 07:57, 4 December 2006 (EST)

I think they were referring to the clutch of surviving blue dragon eggs Korialstrasz discovered previously.--Grid 12:31, 4 December 2006 (EST)


 * Do you mean the red eggs I mentioned? If yes...I think you're wrong, for at the Time DoD was written the idea of the timewarp and the hidden blue eggs most likely didn't even exist. I mean DoD was written before Shadows&Light (Or about the same time, need to check this) and the sourcebooks states about the blue flight that Malygos' was the only blue dragon left. That other blues had survived 10000 years ago as well was retconned in later.--Maibe 12:53, 4 December 2006 (EST)


 * Not "retconned," "revealed", there is a huge difference. Nobody knew about the hidden eggs (Korialstrasz didn't even know until he returned from the past), and blue dragons of advanced age were present in Northrend in WC3. --Ragestorm 13:14, 4 December 2006 (EST)


 * Well, as for Sapphiron and Azuregos... I tihnk they were ingame befor the trilogy came out, so one could have said that Alexstrasza revived them...As for the hiddedn eggs: Remember that Nozdormu, most likely with gritted teeth, said thatt that change to the timeline is okay? I think we can say that Rhonin and Koril returned to an altered timeline...not to the one from where/when they started...--Maibe 13:20, 4 December 2006 (EST)


 * Yes, they did, but it was still the future version of Krasus who hid the eggs, then was sent back to his own kind. Hence they were completely unknown. Besides, Neltharion only eliminated those blues at the battle. Some were certainly not present at the time. If this continues, we should move this conversation to to Blue Dragon talk. -_Ragestorm 17:00, 4 December 2006 (EST)


 * Agreed...Let's agree on that Warcraft needs far more sourcebooks to answer a bunch of questions...--Maibe 18:07, 4 December 2006 (EST)


 * They should give an ecyclopedia on dragons for Warcraft or something. Anyway, he could have had relationship with Alexstrasza, remember he wanted to make an empire with her for mating purposes, so u know she could have given birth, but never actually married him. That would explain the reddish color. It's funny because at school my friend and I had the same conversation about this. Lichkingofthescourge 00:48, 10 March 2007 (EST)


 * Read the books. Alexstrasza NEVER had an relationship with him. Gods, I hate it when people pin it on the colour...Yes, there is some red colour in the black dragon's models...But there's also some bronze in the greens and reds and a tad of blue in the greens...Saying: Oh, deathwing mated with alex / Deathwing managed to hatch the eggs he stole, just because of a little sprinkle of red is plain ridiculous. (Btw: Alex and Korialstrasz managed to get those two eggs deathwing stole back. They clearly stated they would follow the others not before these eggs are safe.)--Maibe 09:05, 10 March 2007 (EST)

Anyway, could Deathwing make two fully grown-up dragons in years? Nefarian and Onyxia look too powerful to be hatchlings which are about 20 or more years old. I heard someone saying 'Deathwing experimented the eggs of Alexstrasza with magic and they were born." but it sounds weird... NetherGnome 07:00, 12 March 2007 (GMT)

Cause of corruption
There is No evidence to that the voices that caused Neltharion to create the dragon/demon soul and destroy the other flights were those of the old gods. [{User:Mahdi]]


 * Well, aside from the fact that Krasus explicitly said it, there is the fact that the voices urged Neltharion away from the Demon Soul as it was forcing open their prison. War of the Encients trilogy, Book 3: The Sundering, 295-296. --Ragestorm 22:37, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

Whereabouts of Deathwing
It's said Deathwing hid "under a mountain" and in Hyjal (in WoW) resides a cave which is an exact copy of Onyxias Lair. Very strange, and Malfurion couldn't find Deathwing during is hibernation in the Emerald Dream before the Third War, and Hyjal actually is magic in nature since the new Well of Eternity resides there so the Well must have been used by Deathwing somehow to hid his whereabouts even from higher planes as the Emerald Dream.

This is just speculation and just a reminder of stuff. Makes me wonder... :P - Rendie


 * We get the idea that Well of Eternity is not accessable because of Nordrassil. Since it was crafted by Alextrasza and Ysera, and Nozdormu, it's unlikely Neltharion can access either the Well or the Tree- between the three of them, they would have realized he'd try something and take steps to counter them. --Ragestorm 12:10, 5 August 2006 (EDT)


 * I am not sure, but since Nordrassil got weakened when Archimonde was destroyed Deathwing might found some way

to manipulate the well after all, but how Deathwing got there AFTER Archimondes destruction I am not sure but I theorize that the portal that brought him to the world also brought Deathwing (who was theorized to reside in Outland) back to the world. - Rendie


 * I thought Day of the Dragon took place after the Alliance Expedition, in which case Deathwing was already on Azeroth. I'm a bit fuzzy on the sequence, though, so I could be wrong. Regardless, not even the original Well had any effect whatsoever on the Emerald Dream. Now, just so I get this right, are you thinking that Hyjal is Neltharion's lair from the War of the Ancients, or just his hideaway right now? --Ragestorm 18:42, 5 August 2006 (EDT)


 * Isn't there an island in Outland referred to in the old maps as "Deathwing's Lair"? I just wrote an article on it and was curious if thats ever come into consideration as his possible hiding place. --Sapphiron 01:01, 6 February 2007 (EST)

A mission took place there in Beyond the Dark Portal. It was his hideaway during that time period, but he was back on Azeroth in Day of the Dragon, set after the Dark Portal was closed. -_ Ragestorm (talk · contr) 10:38, 6 February 2007 (EST)


 * Yes but who's to say an aspect can't create his own portal to another realm? Illidan was able to, I'm pretty sure the most powerful aspect could open a portal to Draenor or any other world. Personally I'd enjoy seeing him in chains in Grim Batol, would make for an interesting bit, but isn't Grim Batol infested by a shadow presence summoned by Thaurissian's wife, Modgud? ("Due to Modgud's death, however, an evil taint spread through the fortress, and, realising that Grim Batol was now uninhabitable, the Wildhammer dwarves sought out a new home in Aerie Peak.") --Sapphiron 01:01, 6 February 2007 (EST)


 * Might be true. I was clarfiying the history, earlier, not disagreeing out of hand. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 00:19, 10 February 2007 (EST)

So if DotD took place after the Portal was closed is it possible that he hid in Azeroth and could have returned to Outland when the portal was just recently reopened? Crazy Diamond 11:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe he's just escaped from Grim Batol and now roams free on Outland.Maybe he's gathering the Nether Dragons to create another flight.After all they are his sons and they would follow him.(((However thats just an opinion)))

Lord Prestor's full name
Going by the newest sourcebook for the Pen&Paper RPG, 'Alliance Player's Guide' the full name Deathwings choose as human was Lord Daval Prestor. During the beta the place now held by Onyxia's human form was held by a Lord Daval Prestor II...Deathwign himself or perhabs Nefarian?

Definiately Neltharion, Onyxia's a chick and Nefarian is Victor Prestor.--Krusk 00:12, 23 August 2006 (EDT)


 * Our thinking right now is not to rely heavily on material in the beta- for example, Garona was the Grand Master of the Assasin's Guild in the beta, but was removed. It's probably a retcon- it was intended to be Deathwing up to his old tricks, but Blizzard decided to put Onyxia into that place instead. -Ragestorm 05:34, 23 August 2006 (EDT)

I agree with not relying on the beta, mostly because none of the information we got from that is conclusive. Daval could have been Nefarian, as this was long before we ever heard about Victor Nefarius, or Neltharion himself, or even still Onyxia, if unlikely. If she has the power to change species I doubt gender would be that big a deal. Referring to the original Prestor as "Daval" was likely just a throwback tribute to the beta character.


 * All dragons can shapeshift, but I don;t think any of them can change gender.--Ragestorm 09:25, 18 December 2006 (EST)

Dragons in Outland
Since the Nether Drakes have been confirmed to be the corrupted children of Deathwing while he was trapped in Outland, i'd assume this means that there are dragons of some sort native to Outland, thoughts?

Maybe Blizzard will retcon so that male dragons can lay eggs. =P


 * If you go by the german translation one could think blue male dragons can...seriously...so many pages and not one time they use the female term when reffering to malygos' mates...*cough*--Maibe 19:18, 18 December 2006 (EST)

Article name
I think this article could be moved to Deathwing, since that is the predominant name he is known by whenever he shows up, with Lord Prestor and Neltharion redirecting to that. We don't have articles at Night elf/kaldorei or Onyxia/Lady Prestor, and I certainly don't want this one called Deathwing/Neltharion/Lord Prestor for the sake of completeness. :) --Aeleas 02:18, 28 October 2006 (EDT)


 * As far as I know, the other Aspects still refer to him as Neltharion. Technically, he still is Neltharion. Since the human name is an alias, we never put it in the title. Similarly, "Kaldorei" is like refering to modern humans as "hominids" or even "terrans." --Ragestorm 10:49, 28 October 2006 (EDT)

Kaldorei is how the night elves refer to themselves in their own language, likewise with sin'dorei. Both are commonly used alternate names for the races, they just aren't the most common term. I simply don't see the value in reflecting all possible various names in the title of an article, rather than the most common one.--Aeleas 12:50, 28 October 2006 (EDT)
 * I see your point, although I don't think it matters much, as all redirects end up here anyway. --Tinkerer 12:56, 28 October 2006 (EDT)


 * It's not all possible names, it's just his use-name and his real name (in fact, if we must change it, "Neltharion" makes more sense than "Deathwing"), and we don't do it for anyone else. Again, the Prestors are aliases, but both Neltharion and Deathwing are "real" names. --Ragestorm 13:55, 28 October 2006 (EDT)

The fact that we don't do it for anyone else is my point; I don't think it should be done here for consistency and ease of linking. How is Neltharion/Deathwing different from Night elf/kaldorei? Or for that matter, Kingdom of Azeroth/Stormwind, if we are going to include both the former and the current names in article titles?--Aeleas 17:22, 28 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Both Deathwing and Neltharion redirect here. I'm trying to point out that his circumstance warrants an exception. It's different from night elf/kaldorei because they're not different languages. It's not that different from Azeroth/Stormwind, I guess. --Ragestorm 21:13, 28 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Deathwing/Neltharion is ugly for a title. Whether you move it to Deathwing or Neltharion doesn't matter much, as long as you move it elsewhere. At least it should be something like Deathwing (Neltharion). It doesn't make a big difference, other than to get rid of that ugly / in the title.--Amro 08:50, 15 November 2006 (EST)

FIne, then, but I propose movement to "Neltharion" or "Neltharion (Deathwing)" --Ragestorm 15:57, 15 November 2006 (EST)


 * I'd vote for Neltharion, as brackets have a specific meaning in article titles.--Aeleas 17:39, 15 November 2006 (EST)


 * Well, if you all insist, shall we change the name to Neltharion?--Ragestorm 20:08, 15 November 2006 (EST)


 * Let's :) --Varghedin 14:40, 27 November 2006 (CET)

I propose calling the whole article Deathwing. Afterall Neltharion is who he USE to be, not who he is NOW. He is the Earth Warder no longer.--Zexx 12:09, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * I refuse. He's still the Earth-Warder, only the Pantheon knows how to change that, if even them.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 17:03, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * What a fun dilemma :) It will always be about a 50:50 split between the two - gamers will probably be more accustomed to Deathwing, lore nuts to Neltharion. I wish the wiki to be lore primarily, so the weight will shift to that side. Also, Ragestorm is Head Bookkeeper, and even I'm scared of him ;)
 * To be serious, Neltharion is the name he used for thousands upon thousands of years, and is his 'real' name. He may have renamed himself Deathwing, but it is not his 'true' name per se. -- Kirkburn  (talk) 17:36, 27 December 2006 (EST)

But he is obviously not Neltharion anymore. If you follow the logic that his original name is what should be the name he's recognized officially as, then the Lich King article should be called Ner'zhul. And really, are we to be so arrogant to assume that if someone chooses a new name for himself and it is the new name the world recognizes him as, it is not who he should be known as because it is not the name he was given?

Also, he is the Earth-Warder no longer because he does not fulfill his duties as the Earth Warder anymore. Him and his flight seek only to destroy.--Zexx 17:41, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * Ner'zhul has undergone huge changes to become the Lich King (which is not just him anyway), whereas Deathwing is just Neltharion gone mad. He's not changed into a different being. He is still the Earth Warder, because that's why he has his powers. If he wasn't the Earth Warder, he'd be powerless - the name is not necessarily his job, but his title. Edit: note that they do not specifically seek to destroy everything, they wish to 'purify' the world for themselves -- Kirkburn  (talk) 17:48, 27 December 2006 (EST)

What you say is still fallacious. You claim the Lich King being no longer referred to as Ner'zhul is because his spirit was transferred to a crystal -- when his personality and identity remained the same, and continues to remain the same because it is still Ner'zhul's intellect and personality which dominate Arthas' body. Yet the Lich King is still not referred to as Arthas or Nerzhul.

In Deathwing's case he's a completely different personality than his original incarnation -- hence, the reason why he himself and other refer to him as Deathwing. If a king is given the title of king but defects from him and attacks his own country, is he still considered a king? So why would Deathwing still be considered the Earth Warder if he no longer fulfills his duties but simply retains his powers? It's been stated that if any of the Aspects die life and the powers that control Azeroth would not change. They are simply guardians who were imbued with powers for protecting those facets of Azeroth.

Also if the Black Dragonflight doesn't seek to destroy how come the section says verbatim that they no longer protect the earth but seek to destroy it?--Zexx 23:37, 27 December 2006 (EST)


 * Actually, Metzen says that the Lich King now has Arthas's personality- He is colloquially referred to as "Lich King Arthas." As for that section, it's wrong. The Black Dragonflight seeks to protect the earth by removing troublesome species, such as humans or orcs. And Neltharion had the "Deathwing" personality for millenia before being named Deathwing (name aquired somewhen between the First and Second Wars). --Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 11:23, 28 December 2006 (EST)


 * Indeed, Deathwing is plain mad old Neltharion, whereas the Lich King is a grossly transformed Ner'zhul plus Arthas. :) -- Kirkburn  (talk) 11:25, 28 December 2006 (EST)

Then why aren't we calling the Lich King Arthas? It's the same personal with added wisdom and power. See, we're exactly back to Square 1 of your argument, and if you claim Arthas and the Lich King are a totally new entity -- DESPITE having the same personalities -- then how is Neltharion having a considerably DIFFERENT personality any different if he claims himself the title of Deathwing? Moreover, if he's simply "Neltharion gone mad", what keeps the Lich King from simply being "Arthas gone mad"? It makes alot more sense to call him Deathwing. That is who he is now.--Zexx 13:59, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * Because as said before, the Lich King is not only Arthas! Whereas Neltharion/Deathwing is not a conglomeration of more than one being. Neltharion = Deathwing, Deathwing = Neltharion. -- Kirkburn  (talk) 14:14, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * So Illidan is called the Betrayer, so is Neltharion called Deathwing. Elune is also called Mu'sha, and Malorn is also called Apa'ro. Deathwing isn't a different personality, it's a different name.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 14:29, 29 December 2006 (EST)

Kirkburn you're missing the point again. Even before Ner'zhul melded with Arthas he was referred to as the Lich King. Also, Illidan is called the Betrayer because it is not an eponymous title. Deathwing is a name. Elune and Malorne are called so because those are alternate names for them but they are still the same gods. Deathwing is a symbolization of how Neltharion is Neltharion no longer, and if you want to use the popular usage argument as in the case of Elune and Malorne before referred to by their Darnassian names rather than Taurahe, the popular naem to refer to Neltharion is infact Deathwing.--Zexx 15:05, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * Ok, let's list what the literature calls him. He is Deathwing in Manual of Monsters. His article in in Shadows & Light is called Neltharion the Earth Warder(Deathwing) and it states Deathwing was once known as Neltharion, and Deathwing is the name he currently chooses to go by... He is only called Deathwing in Lands of Conflict, and Lands of Mystery. He was only known as Deathwing in the Art of Warcraft and Day of the Dragon as I recall. I'm pretty sure he's only called Deathwing in Alliance and Horde sourcebooks as well.


 * He is apparently known as Deathwing in the common tongue and by most races. That is his name in recent history, and what most people know him by, as the average citizens don't know the legends surrounding his ancient name.Baggins 15:25, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * Fair enough, he really is called Deathwing in so many places (something which I did now know previously). :) However, my point stands that he has not become someone else, he is Neltharion still, though he may not be called it as much now. -- Kirkburn  (talk) 16:08, 29 December 2006 (EST)

So my point stands. Deathwing is an eponymous title and also the named used to refer to him much more frequently than this previous identity Neltharion. I think it's an appropriate change, especially since Neltharion is not a suitable description of the dragon he is now rather than the dragon he used to be.--Zexx 13:31, 30 December 2006 (EST)


 * After alot of thought I think I have to agree. While yes he is still Nelfarion, he is also Deathwing, and Deathwing is what he chooses to go by now, and what most people in-universe think of his name as. He'll probably be called Deathwing when he shows up in WoW as well. The whole nelfarion name has mostly been footnote to his current identity. By identity I'm stating yes, they are the same person, but "legally" changed his name (or "illegally" i'm not sure how it works in Azeroth ;).Baggins 13:38, 30 December 2006 (EST)


 * I would be okay with a page move to Deathwing, but I defer to Ragestorm for his thoughts. -- Kirkburn  (talk) 13:58, 30 December 2006 (EST)

What's the consensus? Shall we go forth and change the article to the ominous and fear-jerking name of Deathwing?--Zexx 19:45, 4 January 2007 (EST)


 * Though I still oppose on principle, I have been swayed by your argument (that he chose the name) to not prevent you from doing so. As some fools in the Renaissane decided to revive that quaint Athenian oddity called democracy, consensus wins (in this case). -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:33, 4 January 2007 (EST)


 * I don't think we can say that either name is more legitimate than the other, in which case I would tend towards the more current, commonly used, and recognizable, which I believe is Deathwing, though without strong feelings either way.--Aeleas 20:50, 4 January 2007 (EST)


 * Okay, moved it is. -- 21:00, 4 January 2007 (EST)

Prisoner at Grim Batol
I don't think so. If the Dragonqueen kept Deathwing prisoner, one could expect that the prime consort would know about something of this magnitude. But when Nozdormu contacts Krasus (at the begining of "The Well of Eternity"), the first thing that springs to the mind of Korialstrasz is that the black aspect is cooking up something...again. Obviously, that would be impossible if Deathwing is imprisoned. --Ivanjedi


 * Yes, its probably one of Brann's bit of rumors to make things more interesting. I'm sure when blizzard decides to add Deathwing back in we'll all be surprised.Baggins 15:26, 29 December 2006 (EST)


 * The area Grim Batol already exists in the eastern Wetlands and was once confirmed as one of the not yet implemented instance/raid zones. I also remember some NPCs talking about Grim Batol and what might be inside. Scouting the area there you can easily imagine some nice little 25-man post-BC raid instance there :).--FallingDown 15:24, 8 January 2007 (EST)
 * Check out Grim Batol for more speculations.--FallingDown 15:34, 8 January 2007 (EST)

Shouldn't that last section "Current Location" have a speculation tag? A change with the name of it should probably occur also, but still...--Sky 23:26, 16 January 2007 (EST)


 * What I think would be a really cool plot twist would be if Deathwing HAD been prisoner in Grim Batol (without Korialstrasz/Krasus' knowing) but he turned his evil to work and managed to corrupt the red dragons there, which is why they're hostile. Just my two cents. ~ Peregrine

Baron Sablemane aka. Deathwing?
Picture

"There's nothing more that I hate in this world than the sons of Gruul and their father! They slaughtered my people, and my children, and now I will have a taste of revenge!" - Quote from It's a Trap! (quest) With all kinds of dead Black dragonkin over the place

/discuss
 * 16:19, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * How on earth did I miss that ... very interesting indeed! (Baron Sablemane is in Blade's Edge Mountains, location is here: ).
 * Futher research reveals more about him, but I'm not sure how much to say here =) Safe to say, yes, he is related to the dead dragons. 16:32, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * He might just be a black dragon, not necessarily the big bad himself. Although it wouldn't be unthinkable lore-wise since Blizzard has stated that Outland's nether drakes are in fact black dragons, hatched from eggs brought there by Deathwing, then warped by the Twisting Nether to become partially ethereal. Deathwing hiding out there so close to his progeny makes sense - he might be as crazy as a coconut cracker, but his love for his children is his one 'humanizing' (or perhaps 'dragonizing') factor. -- 17:09, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * Since he refers to "my children", this is very possible. However, I am not sure if the Aspect is the only one allowed to procreate.


 * Well, he freely sacrified his mates in the second war as far as we know...would he really care? Aside from that, I doubt only he was allowed to reproduce, at that would sooner or later lead to incest...--Maibe 20:30, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * You make it sound like incest is not performed in the animal kingdom? It's actually fairly common, even in some human cultures :p -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 20:39, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * I'm aware...yet...someone this greedy for his flight beeing supreme....well...wait...actually that leads to incest....give me some time...I come up with an argument...--Maibe 21:11, 27 January 2007 (EST)

For some reason, that quote doesn't sound like Deathwing to me. Not that that issue matters. How'd he get from Azeroth to Outland, if this is him?-- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:37, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * That's the problem I got...As far as I remember we know that Malygos is the only dragon able to shift between all the planes at will. Deathwing would have needed to open a new portal.--Maibe 21:11, 27 January 2007 (EST)


 * If you guys do the quest chain with him, most indicators point to Baron Sablemane not being Deathwing. Baron Sablemane is a personal friend of Rexxar, and the two met some time ago.  I would like to believe Rexxar is a good judge of character.  The final and most convincing piece of evidence is the end of the quest chain.  Rexxar comes out to help questers finish Showdown, but Alliance players get to summon the Baron himself.  He turns into a drake and fights alongside with you.


 * It isn't Deathwing.--Zexx 11:04, 28 January 2007 (EST)


 * Thanks Zexx, that helped clear it up a little. I was waiting on hereing what apperance his transformation took. Ok then, he's merely an offspring of Deathwing it sounds, which makes more sense. Why he would become a Drake though is beyond me, that's certainly not his true form. And Deathwing is well known for weaving his magic on people to make them side with him, so Rexxar's relationship doesn't totaly rule out him being Deathwing yet. As to plane shifting, practically anyone with enough skill in magic can open a temporary portal, plane shifting isn't what is needed. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 11:11, 28 January 2007 (EST)


 * Why wouldn't a drake be his true form?--Zexx 02:48, 31 January 2007 (EST)


 * Well, if he's the father of all the dead drakes and dragons around the zone, it would be slightly odd. 07:05, 31 January 2007 (EST)


 * A Drake is not a full grown Dragon, thus how could he be father of Dragons if he was a drake? -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 12:47, 31 January 2007 (EST)


 * Would've been a bit hard and out of place to make him a full grown dragon the size of Nef or Ony for the quest. It's simply a gameplay necessity.--Zexx 14:46, 31 January 2007 (EST)


 * He wouldn't have to be that huge to be a dragon. Take Anachronos' size for instance - perfectly manageable. -- 14:52, 31 January 2007 (EST)


 * Anachronos is pretty damn big.--Zexx 14:57, 31 January 2007 (EST)


 * Exactly, it's not his true form, it's one they've given him for gameplay limitations. If he took on that form in lore terms is another matter. Either way, his true form would be that of a Dragon, not a Drake. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 15:12, 31 January 2007 (EST)


 * Naw, he looks big in the pic but that's mostly perspective. He's about the size of normal drakes, and smaller than bigger drakes. It shouldn't be that much of a challenge to make. What's the difference between drakes and dragons anyway? It's mostly aesthetical. One could argue that drakes are younger and less powerful, but there are some pretty damn powerful drakes out there - Teremus for instance. -- 20:47, 31 January 2007 (EST)

Exactly. It's just a matter of aesthetics. Just because Lantressor the Blade uses an orc model and Sylvanas continues to be portrayed as a night elf doesn't mean that is how they're supposed to look like. Obviously they are done that way for convenience. Seeing as how all the only black dragons we have in this game both use unique models (Nefarian and Onyxia), I don't think the devs could have been bothered to create a third unique dragon model and simply settled for a drake.--Zexx 13:06, 1 February 2007 (EST)

For reference, Sablemane's true (dragon) name is "Sabellian." It appears to me that he shares basic mesh skeleton and appearance with the likes of Nefarian and Onyxia 's model, only on a very slightly smaller scale. --User:DarthMeatloaf 9:40, 12 February 2007 (EST)


 * Well glad we got a name, leads me to further doubt it's Deathwing. Perhaps he simply became the alpha male with Deathwing's absence, and the death of all his siblings/parents, so all existing Black Dragons there would be his own offspring. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 21:53, 12 February 2007 (EST)


 * Deathwing is Deathwing's true name, so I should hope you'd doubt Sabellian is Deathwing. This whole thread is pretty silly. Deathwing is a rather powerful Aspect. If Sablemane WAS Deathwing, (a) he would not need our help to kill a Gronn, and (b) I doubt he would aid the Cenarion Circle druids. --Benefice2 15:13, 26 March 2007 (EDT)


 * just FYI, Baron Sablemane does not turn into a drake, he turns into a full-blown dragon. However, his name does not appear as "Deathwing", so we can assume it is probably not him. Even if that's not proof enough... come on. He's a friggin Dragon Aspect. And he needs to help to take on, not even Gruul himself, but just an ordinary Gronn? Nonononono. This is not Deathwing, however from Lady Sinestra's conversation with Mog'hor we can assume he is in Outland somewhere, presumably secretly leading the remnants of the Black Dragonflight. ~ Peregrine

The Infinity Dragonflight = New Deathwing Brood
Hey, I'm surprised no one mentioned this but those Infinity Dragons that are trying to corrupt the Caverns of Time look surprisingly black and dark AND they look like they are enhanced black dragons...

I wouldn't be surprised if Deathwing (who was trying to create a dragonflight in his image) succeeded. I mean, Nefarian was only following in his father's footsteps...

Also, we may yet see a Deathwing at the Battle of Hyjal (25 man)... or one of his raid-type drakes. - Linfone


 * First: sign your post. Second: Try using the space-bar less Third: Look again and compare the infinite flight to black drakes once more. the infinite flight reminds more of polished obsidian stone or the like, not like a black drake usually does. aside from that... it's not likely deatwhing managed to get into the caverns and timestreams as easily as the infinite flight did. I still say it's either the old gods or maybe the legion who's behind it...--Maibe 11:07, 12 February 2007 (EST)

Sign your posts please, and yes, it is a possible and interesting theory.--Zexx 10:59, 12 February 2007 (EST)

To Maibe:

Deathwing has adamantite plates all over him. Deathwing's Warcraft 2 model showed him in jet black metallic plates, which made me wonder what adamantite plates would look like on old model dragonkin. Maybe he decided that his new brood would be made in his own image. The models look metallic in origin.

Also, Maibe, you might wanna consider your lore. Deathwing is the most powerful dragon in Azeroth. He consumed the Demon Soul (a corrupted version of the Dragon Soul) and is tainted by the Legion. - Linfone (2/13/07)


 * Check your lore: the Demon Soul was completely destroyed, not consumed, and Alextrasza is technically the most powerful dragon in Azeroth, with a strong argument for Nozdormu.
 * Overall, the theory is a fair one. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 16:47, 13 February 2007 (EST)


 * I guess it will take a few more instances in the caverns before we can say who's behind it...either by their master beeing revealed himself or some insatnce that points staright to one suspect...but so far...all instances we got would do nice to each suspect if the infinite flight would win: Durnhold: Deathwing cause without Thrall Nefarian and Blackhand would/might grow stronger, The Legion so Mannoroth won't fall and Archimonde might succeed at Hyjal and the old gods for both reasons. Black Morass: Deathwing cause without the prcs and their kidnapping of alexstrasza his mates would be still there and so would the demon soul, The legion because the people in azeroth would be unaware and unprepared then, old gods: again both reasons, i'd say Hyjal: we yet have to wait and see what the infinite flight is up to, I guess. --Maibe 17:17, 13 February 2007 (EST)


 * What? How about giving that to us in Akkadian, it would be clearer. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 17:20, 13 February 2007 (EST)


 * Akkadian? I'm sorry, I#m not really used to Wikipedia editing yet...--Maibe 17:45, 13 February 2007 (EST)


 * Rolf Ragestorm. The Black Morass assement is wrong Maibe. Deathwing did not loose mates from Orcs and it would no way benefit him, infact, it would probably have made things worse for him. We will have to wait for Hyjal to be completed to find out the final part of the puzzle. I forget the names, but back in beta i had a list of all the bosses from CoT, i determined Aeonus seemed the likely leader before more info came out, and there were no other bosses left to go in Hyjal. I need to check the MPQ again since live see if theres any new CoT bosses it could be. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 17:54, 13 February 2007 (EST)


 * Well, from DotD we know he lost his last mates in the first days of the war, and I'd say the second war on Azeroth was menat, not the one before the sundering...and I doubt aeonus is it, as there are more instances to come for CoT...Grim batol for example...--Maibe 18:30, 13 February 2007 (EST)


 * No, we don't know that from DotD. It had nothing to do with the war, it was his own madness. The how is never fully explained and DotD does not even begin to go into it. And that's merely speculation for CoT. There is ability to add more, but no announcements for anything, least of all Grim Batol. I already know Aeonus isn't the leader though and i'm trying to find more info as to new options now. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 18:47, 13 February 2007 (EST)


 * It IS stated in DotD. I can't give you the page as I have the german version, but it's clearly stated by ysera in chapter 20.--Maibe 19:07, 13 February 2007 (EST)


 * No, it only stated he lost most of his flight and consorts by his own doing. It says something to the effect of "his whole flight has been wiped out" early on. Which has proven to be inaccurate information. The quote you are refring to is "You know that the last of his mates perished in the first days of the war, slain by his own recklessness..." which makes no mention of the orcs involvement, but merely his own. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 19:37, 13 February 2007 (EST)


 * But...without the orcs, most likely no war, right?--Maibe 09:14, 14 February 2007 (EST)


 * No new bosses for Hyjal from what i can see sadly :/ -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 19:39, 13 February 2007 (EST)

TO clarify: my comment about Akkadian meant that I couldn't understand Maibe's post. I mentioned a dead language because you never know who could get insulted by live ones. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 10:03, 14 February 2007 (EST)


 * I see. Well, I tried to list who it would do a favour if the Infinite Flight would succeed in the various CoT-instances.--Maibe 13:26, 14 February 2007 (EST)


 * Ahh. You're wrong on both counts, then. We don't how what happened to Deathwing's mates, and it seems a bit of a stretch for him to use that particular event. As for Durnholde, what's to stop the Alliance from getting rid of Nefarian and Rend? Altering the events at Durnholde would benefit the Legion, however. I doubt they're the ones behind it, as it would indicate a stronger presence on Azeroth than currently indicated. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 16:19, 14 February 2007 (EST)


 * I actually got the impression, from what the bosses say, that they merely intend to undo time on azeroth completely and bring about chaos as that is the world they exist in. No systamatic plotting of events and such, the events i'd imagine are simply the choice for game appeal. -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 21:39, 14 February 2007 (EST)

Alot of these arguments seem unfounded, because there is already so little information to base it on. How can you tell what Deathwing intends to do when even he isn't sure of why he's doing what he does? The Bronze Flight has never explained what would happen if the Infinites are not stopped other than it would mean bad news for everyone. Just because it benefits the Legion doesn't mean it wouldn't benefit Deathwing or whoever he's entered an alliance with. Nothing to prove that he feels any real allegiance to the Black Dragonflight either -- he could have just as easily created a new one to wreak havoc with a new plan.

Either way, interesting theory.--Zexx 06:30, 17 February 2007 (EST)

Deathwing's "death" during the Invasion to Draenor
ther is some contradiction in his "deaths". In History of Warcraft was mentioned that events of the Day of the Dragon book take plae "meanwhile" to WC2: BtDP ad in the fifth mission of the BtDP was mentioned by orcs that "With the Dragon Queen Alexstrasza rescued and the Dragonmaw Clan captured by the Alliance, we were no longer able to command these great winged beasts." According to the lore this mission takes place in the middle of the BtDP storyline. If that is right there is no contradiction in deathwing "death" during the BtDP in the hands of the Alliance Expedition Perhaps he could really die because he was weakened by his battle with Aspects (or heavily wounded and transformed and then retreat to Azeroth or transformed to Neher Drake by the Draenor explosion or killed by it). Mardook


 * Just to sum things up and make it clear. You're saying, because of the quote in WC2:BtDP, his death in it takes place after DotD. I always throught DotD took place well after the portal was closed, just from the sound of things :S But that quote does prove it to be the other way around if you're right. Hopefully someone who has played WC2 can back that up, as i haven't. But cool, good point, cos everyone has always worked on the asumption i had from what i've seen. Tbh, doesn't that actually make his status deceased? He's never appeared since, and i don't recall his kids saying anything about him being alive still. :S -- Zeal  talk   contr  web 05:30, 20 February 2007 (EST)


 * This has been retconned. All sourcebooks nowadays give the following timeline: year 6-7 after the opening: Ner'zhul gets turned into the lichking by Kil'Jaeden. Year 8: Battle of Grim Batol. Well, it's likely that dragons can also make an illusion of their own to be at two places at one time...(except for Nozdormu who can do that by heart...)--Maibe 09:14, 20 February 2007 (EST)

Hint of Deathwing's location?
Just started trying out the latest patch on the PTR. Headed over to the Dragonmaw base camp on Netherwing Ledge and saw a conversation between the orc in charge and a "Blood elf" named Lady Sinestra. Sinestra talks to the orc about Nefarian's failure and how her "master" is continuing the project of his progeny. She pledges the Black flight's help for netherwing eggs, and, as she leaves the camp, she turns into a black dragon.

Granted, it's not said outright where he is, but I get the feeling he's not held beneath Grim Batol (or if he is, then they are not keeping a close enough eye on the dragon).

Hope it's ok to bring this up, found it pretty interesting when I came across the NPCs talking. Also figured it'd be best to throw up the spoiler tag, just to be safe.--Maenos 06:07, 15 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Perhabs it's just the snotty-ness of the black flight. I can easily imagine them saying: alright, so the master is held captive by that dreaded red flight in azeroth, but that's only a minor setback...he'll soon be back and continue work...--Maibe 06:27, 15 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Deathwing inspires such fear and loyalty in his consorts and children, I doubt they'd use his name so casually... or rather his title. However, we don't even know for sure that this "master" is Deathwing at all. ~ Peregrine


 * Actually, Sinestra states she's there to claim eggs for her master, no matter what the price, and how they are her master's eggs anyways. -- Hoboonaparkbench


 * And we all know supervillains have the best sense of ownership in the world... "I want it, so its mine". ~ Peregrine

It should be noted that these are different names for the same individual/personality, and not names denoting different personalities.
This appears not to be entirely true. I've looked into more history of Deathwing from various books, including the RPG and we have these quotes that seem to point out that his personality has infact changed over time;


 * In peaceful times, their leader was known as Neltharion, and his wisdom and power were renowned. Then came the madness that destroyed Neltharion's mind. The ultimate cause of this fall is unknown.; some scholars say a favored child died before his eyes, others claim that a powerful relic twisted his mind and soul. Whatever, the cause Neltharion ceased to exist, taking up a new name and a bitter purpose. He became Deathwing and his subjects were placed beneath the iron rule of a tyrant.


 * Deathwing was once known as Neltharion the Earth-Warder, a great protect of the land, but some unknown crisis in the distant past changed him and his kind forever...Upon his irrevocable shift to evil, he turned against his destiny and began to deslign in causing suffering wherever he could.

-Baggins 13:17, 17 April 2007 (EDT)


 * In his appearance in DotD (Deathwing), he has a similar demeanor and disposition to his "mask" appearance to the other Aspects in WotA (Neltharion). The implication there is that Neltherion reverted to his normal personality in the intervening years, while maintaining his "dragons only" ideology. The change in personality that the character undergoes in the interveneing years is little different from changes that any of the Kaldorei might have undergone. Hence, Deathwing is more like a favorite alias than a completely distinct personality. The personality is the same. The alignment and ideology are what has changed. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 14:52, 17 April 2007 (EDT)


 * It's also stated he's capable of putting on acts, Deathwing is what he has become, but he's capable of "acting" like who he once was, or other personalities as means to manipulate others. At one time he had a kind and noble personality, and liked other races. When he "changed" he began to have a hatred for others, and wanted to "use" them for his own gains. In anycase, there are definite statements that, his personality has changed from one of nobility and honor, to one of evil, deceit, and hatred.Baggins 15:14, 17 April 2007 (EDT)


 * Oh, I'm not disputing that he changed, that much is obvious. But my point is that Deathwing and Neltharion are just names- Neltharion behaved in a Deathwing-ish manner before the acquisition of the new name (which I don't think has been officially addressed), and Deathwing occasionally behaves in a Neltharion-ish manner.
 * Regarding that line, though, you are correct that it needs modifying. Regardless of what the actual situation is, in conversation, that it how the names are used. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 16:54, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

Sounds like Death/Nelth is a little like Gollum. 2 sides fighting, but his evil side seems to the strongest. (Keilden 07:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC))

Blade's Edge
I pulled WoWMapView up and got a good look at Dragon's Rest. All the impaled blacks appear to have reddish plating on themselves, and none of them appear to be larger than the others. --Super Bhaal 01:27, 6 May 2007 (EDT)
 * Lots of black dragons have reddish plating. What's your point? - Dark T Zeratul 01:35, 6 May 2007 (EDT)
 * gods, not the old -all black dragons we see nowadays hatched from the eggs Deathwing stole in DotD- They did NOT. Onyxia and Nefarian are far older than that and Alexstrasza and Korialstrasz RECOVERED those eggs.--Maibe 07:19, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

I never implied any of that. There was something on the 'whar is dethwing???' section of the page that said, "Some fans speculate that Deathwing is in fact the large, armored Black Dragon impaled on the spikes of Dragons' End, although it is extremely unlikely that a major lore figure would appear as an unidentified corpse with no mention of his death." I was just trying to put that theory to rest. --Super Bhaal 22:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Error
Until the release of World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade, he, Grom Hellscream, and Uther Lightbringer were the only playable NPCs from Warcraft II to appear in sources of lore set after the game.

I don't know what you mean by this. "Grom Hellscream, and Uther Lightbringer were the only playable NPCs." Let's rephrase this: "Grom Hellscream, and Uther Lightbringer were the only playable Non-Playable Characters". I don't even know what you're trying to MEAN...Luffy 18:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Where was he in Warcraft three? The prestor model was fan created in the map editer. I myself have been confused on this. 1.)You can not play as lore charicters in TBC, so how would that chainge anything? 2.0 if this is supposed to mean playable in Warcraft three, where was Ol' Deathy in that game? Sorces of lore... OH! Books, games and all. Yeah it makes scence now and is true. Sorry.-- 18:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Grom Hellscream, and Uther Lightbringer and Deathwing were the only Hero units from warcraft two to be shown in anything, be it a book or warcraft three or WoW. TBC chainged this with Khad ann Dan and all that.-- 18:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You haven't read "The Last Guardian", have you?--Austin P 01:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * NPC means non-player character, not non-playable character. It doesn't seem like much of a difference, but believe me, it can make quite a difference indeed. ~Peregrine - Master Chief FTW! 02:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Deathwing Killed = End of the World?
There has been a discussion on Ashbringer.com's forums - thinking maybe Deathwing might have some kind of link to it, not sure where that debate came from - as to what would happen if Deathwing were killed. Evil deeds aside, Deathwing - or Neltharion, if you prefer - is the Aspect of Earth.

The debate's split; some believe that because Deathwing (as Neltharion) was granted his power by the Titans, the power would simply return to the Titans. Others - myself included - believe that if Deathwing were killed, the world of Azeroth would suffer a cataclysm rivalling the disaster which resulted in the creation of Outland. Our of curiosity, I had asked what would have happened if Deathwing were no longer on Azeroth - i.e. during his sojourn on Draenor - and some are of the opinion that it should have had the same reaction as killing him. But then again, during the time of the aforementioned sojourn (Warcraft II), Deathwing was merely a black dragon who was (apparently) aiding the Horde; the idea of the Dragon Aspects, far as I know, was not yet established.

Opinions? --Joshmaul 20:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think he lost his power over earth when he became corrupted. Though, the blacks still think of the depths as theirs, which is why they hate Ragnaros (who took over the molten core) so much.-- 20:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * He hasn't lost all of his powers, he just turned them towards destruction rather than the intended purpose of creation. Also onsidering that Deathwing's existence has created several cataclysms already, because he misuses his powers. I highly doubt his distruction would do much of anything. He also is apparently capable of dieing of old age, and will probably be replaced someday.Baggins 20:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Upon his irrevocable shift to evil, he turned against his destiny...his changes to the land forced the mortal races to battle for resources, and many claim that Deathwing is the true cause behind the wars that have for so long scoured the face of Azeroth. He revels in causing earthquakes and ripping open volcanic fissures...Deathwing can employ his great powers to raise magama from the world's core to the surface, creating volcanoes even in places where none stood before. Deathwing was once a protector of the earth and the land, but is now the enemy of all who defend life and nature."

-Baggins 20:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In DotD, the others seem to think they can destroy (or at least defeat) him without harm, but Krasus says at some other point that even they aren't sure what will happen. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 21:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I tend to follow the theory that the aspects keep a seal on the old gods prison together...therefor, if one truly dies without an heir the old gods will have an easier time breaking free...c'thun and whichever corrupted the dream (if that wasn't c'thun) had it quite easy (so to speak) to escape at least particular when the aspects were weakened...--Maibe 21:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the world will be fine. As mentioned before the Aspects are clearly described as custodians and guardians, not embodiments.  Just because a guy guarding a bridge was killed doesn't mean that bridge ceases to exist. -- Zexx 16:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * At least not until some demon comes among and blasts the bridge. -_ Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 19:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Pretty much yeah, but its not like they were utterly necessary. The Aspects were totally absent from the Third War, but this is most likely because their lore wasn't fully fleshed out yet.  --- Zexx 04:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe that the death of the aspects will mean the end of the world, but not as a direct link. As in, without aspects, there are none to safeguard the land, and so the demons will come and kill everything in sight... If I had to pick one aspect to be the most absolutely essential to the fate of Azeroth, though, I would have to say Nozdormu. ~Peregrine

Not Dead
Since Blizzard has, in fact, now said that Deathwing is still alive (Lady Sinestra), should we get rid of the "He is dead" in the current location section? Luffy 11:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Nobody said this "master" is Deathwing. ~Peregrine

Anti-Hero
a pretty small point but the term "anti-hero" is being misused here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-hero, deathwing is a villian and evil, but as the wiki link shows, that is not the meaning of the term anti-hero js1006 15:31, 8 September 2007 (GMT)


 * Agreed. Remove as needed. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Removing Fanart
Removal of fanart to follow screenshot/artwork policy.--Baggins 05:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Deathwing Killed = End of the World?
Well.. if Deathwing would die, nothing would happen. Why do I say this? Wrath of the Lichking sas Malygos (another aspect) is set to be a raid boss. If you would kill him? wouldn't the world be pretty fucked aswell? unless you only have to defeat him and after he chickens out like Majordomo in MC. I don't know we'll have to wait I guess. CaiuNariz

Comment: It shouldn't be the end of the world cause the Titans formed the world and the Dragons are just there to protect it. KijkEr

Re: Whereabouts of Deathwing.
Another sugestion maby. He could also be one of the Trade Princes of the goblins and he's hiding out somewhere in the capital of the Goblins. Since there are 2 of the 5 factions of Goblins still not revealed and 4 of the 5 trade princess it could be very posible I'd say. Also ofcourse Deathwing can go to Outland on his own. Illidan could? why shouldn't Deathwing. Deathwing could go to the Emerald Dream as told in the War of the Ancient Trilogy. Could also be that he could just reach into it and not actually enter it entirely I forgot that part, if so I stand corrected. Also maby if he is on the goblin island thingy and he somehow couldn't reach outland on his own (this maby reaching for plot big time) Goblin's are pretty techno-freaks, they can teleport people from one place to another is known. Since if Deathwing would take the form of a tradeprince he could've set all the lil green guys to work to make another transeporter/portal to Outland. Coud all be true since no big time info about the lil-greenguy's capital is released yet. --CaiuNariz

Scratch Wyrmest Temple please.
To make it short: Wyrmest temple was merely an adventure hook, so nothing that should be considred a theory for the MMORPG. IMHO --Maibe 22:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I would personally agree with this - it does seem to be taking a bit too far. And I recall thinking it was utterly absurd when reading the RPG :/ 23:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think its a bit absurd as well, however the introduction by Brann states that the little adventures he mentions throughout the book are "rumors" he's picked up along the way. He's not saying they are true, but just stories and myths he's heard about.


 * Finally if the event really did happen, I bet it was all a ruse, and that Deathwing really wasn't dieing, and had some other reason for going there.Like any of the adventure hooks you don't get the end of the story only the start of one, so the final outcome is up in the air.Baggins (talk) 09:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

About the -progeny- part
You know, I wonder if the word progeny is really a hint to Deathwing. Blizzard played with words often before, so can we really be sure it means offspring here and not, perhabs, product, indicating there's someone (or something) else pulling the strings?--Maibe 02:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I will now, in typical Peregrine fashion, cry "OLD GODS!!!" ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 17:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The one problem with your suggestion is that Deathwing is now such a megalomaniac that he doesn't even trust the voices in his head. Maibe could potentially be right, of course- but there's no way of telling, so no entry into the article (discuss lore implication on subpage or usertalk to conitnue non-editorial discussion)-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 17:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Miscommunication
Just curious, what possible miscommunication could have led to Deathwing smoking a hookah? I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just curious. --Xavius 09:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Maby..the hookah was supposed to be just an artifact in some tresure he was guarding.. Thrall sees Deathwing and visa versa followed by Deathwing saying: Lookah lookah this is my hookah --CaiuNariz 18:45, 11 Januari 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd rather say they wrote seomthign along the lines of -thrall spots a smoking dragon---Maibe 18:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That sounds more probable.  XAVIUS, the Satyr Lord  ( Praise  ·  Creations ) 19:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Deathwing, the villain in the comics?
I was just doing the Missing Diplomat quest again, and in the end it appears that black dragons are working together with the Defias and nagas... And the villain in the comics is most likely; a Defias, a naga or a black dragon. I doubt its a Defias, because in that case VanCleef would still be alive, a new unnamed leader wouldn't be original... And we can be pretty sure its not a NAGA, no need to explain why. But as we all (?) know dragons can take human form, and the villain is sort of confirmed to be the leader of the Take-The-Diplomat stuff.. And since its all going on at the same time as TBC, it can't be Nefarian, since he is confirmed dead lorewise, and Onyxia is in Stormwind all the time, so it can't be her, and in WotLK there will be much dragon-lore stuff I guess... Might this be Deathwing? Ofel(talk) 16:18, 3 July 2008 (Norwegian Time :P)


 * Sign your posts... and VanCleef may still be alive, ingame questlines don't always mesh with chronological events (or rather what level your character was involved with the event).Baggins (talk) 13:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Ehm... I didn't really understand that sentence, but  is proof enough for me that he's dead, and The Missing Diplomat is sort of a follow-up from Defias Questline Ofel(talk) 18:03, 3 July 2008 (Norwegian Time)


 * Think of it this way, the head of Onyxia doesn't prove Onyxia is dead. Infact she is very much alive in the time frame of the comics (it takes place after TBC begins). In the case of some of the published lore in sources such as the RPG, VanCleef was very much alive at least up to the start of The Burning Crusade (a few months before it at the most), he's still alive in Dark Factions for example. Much of the Missing Diplomat line has already occured in those sources, including knowledge that Varian Wrynn was trapped on Alcaz Island for a short time. Sometimes quest lines that occur in the games do not happen exactly as they do in the game in other lore. Not even quest lines in the game necessarily match up, one quest has you get the head of Renault Mograine for example, yet another quest has him killed by another NPC. Sometimes the Horde versions of quests tell a very different story than Alliance versions of quests.Baggins (talk) 16:30, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * As for Onyxia (though this might rather belong to her talk page then here): I've heard the theory that she linked her own lifeforce to that of VanCleef and her brother so she can come back as long as one of the two is alive. Same goes for the other two. That theory makes sense to me as quasi-/semi-immortality might be something VanCleef would want if he has to enter an alliance with the black flight and Onyxia is too clever only to tell him he should do what she wants or else...--Maibe (talk) 22:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I think there was a fan theory, that VanCleef has body doubles impersonate him to keep him safe. So that anyone that tries to reach him would most likely run into one of his doubles, and he'd be able to get out alive. As I remember specifically one of the fan theories tied to this idea is this is one of the reasons why he wears bandanas all the time, and also pushes that style onto members of the Defias, to improve his disguise.Baggins (talk) 22:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The bandana-thing, though, is more of a game-detail morphed into canon with Dark Factions, so (dull) people will recognize that element. The new version of the Defias as it came with that book bothers me a bit, as it IMHO turns the Defias into a gang of people who apparently would have declared war on stormwind even if they would have been payed and makes the king look too goody...The details of the world of warcraft are turned plain black and white one by one and that shouldn't be.--Maibe (talk) 02:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)