Talk:Fel/Analysis

According to Aaron Rosenburg, Fel Magic is Death magic. This is something that should be placed into speculation since this matter isn't clear, however, there are contradicting sources, that's why I'm removing it.


 * Rosenburg was only talking about content in his book. He is merely a contract writer, not a Blizzard employee and hasn't worked with Blizzard on Warcraft franchise since 2008. He also wrote a couple of the now non-canon RPG books. He is mistaken and/or his information is outdated in thinking it was death magic. Neilson is not a historian, he is the current Blizzard Lead Writer in Publishing. He's one of the actual people writing the lore/story and is basically in charge of everything that goes into media external to the game. If he says fel and death magic are different, then that's the way it is. He even talks about future content in the works where the difference will be addressed. --Aquamonkkeyeg (talk) 17:55, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter if Aaron is a contract writer, his novel is canon. It is completely irrelevant that Aaron wrote a couple of non-canon RPG books because ToD is not an RPG book, so I don't know what point you're trying to make, I think you're just arguing for arguing sakes.


 * Death magic and Fel magic are still created the same way, by sacrificing/draining life-force, and they are both used to do the same thing, so no, Aaron wasn't mistaken for thinking Fel magic is Death magic, and until there is a reason why Death magic and Fel magic are different, they are the same.


 * Death Coil's W2 description:
 * Death Coil is a particularly potent variation of the Touch of Darkness spell. By channeling the necromantic powers of the underworld through his ghoulish form, the Death Knight creates a field of dark energy that DRAINS THE LIFE-FORCE from any who come in contact with it. This life-force is then consumed - thereby replenishing the strength of one so enchanted, be he friend or foe. The icy embrace of death can be beneficial...for those who know how to control it.


 * According to Micky, Fel isn't Death magic even though it drains life. Death Coil's purpose is to drain life, I suppose Death Coil isn't really a Death spell lolololololol.


 * http://www.wowhead.com/spell=111722/necrotic-pact


 * Necrotic Pact:
 * SACRIFICES LIFE FORCE to animate a minion, taking damage for all damage inflicted to the minion.


 * Unholy Armor:
 * This ancient NECROMANTIC spell transforms a portion of the recipients's life force into an unearthly, phantasmal suit of armor. This spectral armor then absorbs the damage from any ::attack directed from any attack directed at its wearer for a limited amount of time. As the magiks that link this armor to its host cease, so will the invulnerability that it grants.


 * I thought Fel was created by sacrificing/draining life-force? Apparently not since Fel and Death magic aren't the same.


 * The Warcraft 2 manual states that the gems fixated within the DK's truncheons were infused with the necromantic energies of his slain Necrolytes. Gul'dan created these gems by sacrificing his Necrolytes. Fel is created by sacrificing life. Necromantic magic is created by sacrificing life, and they both do the same thing, and manifests the same wayVisionOfPerfection (talk) 21:47, 16 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection


 * The point is that Rosenberg hasn't worked on the Warcraft franchise since 2008. Either he's mistaken in what "death magic" (only mentioned once in both books) was you were asking about in the tweet or things changed since then. Neilson is currently in charge of Blizzard's story development outside games, whatever he says outranks any of Rosenberg's opinions/interpretations of things he wrote 6 years ago. The stuff in the book is canon, Rosenberg's interpretation is not. Neilson says fel and death magic are different and that is the direction Blizzard is going with in future content. If you want to teach the controversy, then make the speculation section. But as it stands currently, fel being different from death magic is the canon state of things now and going forward.


 * And you are conflating things. Some death magic is created by sacrificing life energy. There are other types that do not, like stuff using shadow/void energy, arcane, troll juju, etc. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 22:08, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The point that Rosenberg hasn't work on the Warcraft franchise since 2008 is irrelevant


 * Neilson did not create the lore, he didn't write all the novels, and he based his statements off of what source? The unreliable book in Dalaran that states Necromancy is Arcane but Necromancers use the Void to create bolts of energy?


 * Fel magic and Death magic "being different" isn't the direction Blizzard is going with in future content. Are you forgetting that Necromancy is an art and can be attained through Fel, Shadow, and Arcane, and that in WoD, Warlocks are using Fel magic to raise undead and are called Necrophytes?


 * Arcane magic doesn't inherently do all the things Necromantic magic do while Fel does, and Micky called Warlocks Necromancers in his book Blood of the Highborne, yet decided to call them different just a short while ago. What purpose does this serve? He is retcon'ing lore back and forth and it doesn't change anything.


 * And Micky's statement defeats itself. Necromantic spells such as Death Coil drains life, that is its purpose. Death magic is not the same as Fel magic even though it drains life = Death Coil is not really a Death spell because it drains life.


 * There isn't anything he can state that can prove Necromantic magic isn't Fel.


 * Micky can state Fel isn't Necromantic magic because although they do the same thing, Fel isn't Arcane, but that is a poor excuse. Fel can raise undead and it drains life.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 22:22, 16 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection


 * Micky literally says fel and death magic are different and it will be addressed in a future publication... You even admit that necromancy can be achieved through other means, necessitating that they are different. So why do you insist on conflating death magic and fel just because some death magic drains life? There are other death magics that don't do that at all. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 22:34, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, Necromancy can be achieved through other means, but Fel magic is something that "inherently" does what Necromantic magic does. Admitting that Necromancy can be achieved through other means is not necessitating that they are different. Being able to achieve Necromancy through "Arcane" doesn't change the fact that Fel inherently does what Necromantic magic does. I'm conflating Death magic and Fel because Fel inherently does what Death magic does. "Arcane" does not require draining/sacrificing life energy, and if Death Coil and Unholy Armor are Necromantic because it drains/sacrifices life energy then Fel is Necromantic.


 * And of course I believe Necromancy can be attained through Arcane, but what examples are there of Arcane being used for Necromancy? The book in Dalaran states Necromancers harness the shadows (Void) to create bolts of energy, not Arcane, and therefore it's not reliable. Necromantic spells in Warcraft required sacrifice. Arcane is not created by sacrifice like Fel is and is not inherently Necromantic, so the Warcraft manauls aren't reliable, especially since the Warcraft 1 and 2 manual makes no mention of demonic (Fel) magic.


 * Micky may state Fel magic and Death magic are different, and you may side with him, but the questions to be answered are:


 * 1)What type of energies were the Soulstones Gul'dan created infused with? Fel or Necromantic energy? The W2 manual states that the gems Gul'dan created were infused with Necromantic energies of Gul'dan's slain (sacrificed) Necrolytes.


 * 2)How is Arcane Death magic?


 * 3) Why did the Warcraft 3 manual state that the Temple of the Damned was used to channel demonic energies when the Warcraft 1 manual states that the Temple of the Damned is where the Orcish Necromancers performed their sacrifices and when the Warcraft 2 manual states DK's studied their necromancy there.


 * Only time will tell......I await their logic.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 23:16, 16 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection


 * Except death magic doesn't inherently do those things. If it did, then all forms of death magic would drain life instead of just the fel/demon variety. Someone performing death magic via void/shadow or troll juju or arcane isn't powering their death magic by burning life energy. And fel does things that death magic doesn't. Hence fel and death magic are not the same thing.


 * Meryl Winterstorm used arcane to turn himself into an undead. And the harnessing shadows bit is only about the bolts of incendiary energy. Everything else in that about arcane necromancy has nothing to do with shadows. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 23:20, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) Do we even know what the troll juju contains? Doubt it


 * 2) Necromancy can be achieved through Arcane and Void too, as I've stated before. Necromancy attained through Arcane doesn't inherently do the things Fel does.


 * 3) If someone performing "death magic" via arcane isn't powering their death magic by burning life energy, then arcane does things that death magic doesn't. Hence arcane and death magic are not the same thing. See how I used your own logic against you?


 * I knew you were going to bring up Meryl as an example...to which I'll respond to with: Necromancy can be attained through Arcane, but that's only one example. There are more examples of Fel magic being used to raise undead than there are Arcane.


 * The book in Dalaran still doesn't prove Necromancy is Arcane. Conjuring diseases? What kind of diseases? Plagues? The Plague of Undeath and the plague the Forsaken used definitely was Fel. Chilling people with the power of death? That's what Death Coil does, Death Coil requires draining life and manifests with a Green color, not Violet and/or White


 * Fel magic being "Death" magic makes more sense than Arcane being "Death" magic, and that is all there is to it, but whatever, if "Death" magic is Arcane, fine, I just want an explanation explaining why, even if the explanation is terrible (which it will be).


 * One thing I do want is for the Lore Historians to acknowledge that Warlocks do raise undead, because they seem to be under the impression that Warlocks don't raise undead at all when they actually do. Nameless Eredar Warlocks raised undead in TwoTAs, Gul'dan and his Necrolytes raised undead, and in-game Warlocks can use Soulstones.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 23:36, 16 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection


 * 1. Troll juju is something different, containing "an unknown power source". Probably some kind of voodoo.
 * 2/3. You can use that logic all you want, but it doesn't prove anything about fel. It is explicitly stated that fel is different from death magic and that fel is different from arcane. What was first termed "necromancy" was "the arcane mysteries of life and death." I never said arcane is death magic. You are putting subcategories above their parent categories. Necromancy being arcane, doesn't mean arcane is necromancy (squares being a rectangle, doesn't mean all rectangles are squares).
 * Justin Parker never claimed that warlocks don't raise dead, he said they follow a different discipline than necromancers and he even noted that there is some overlap. Just because there is overlap doesn't make them the same thing. Mages can manipulate the elements and elementals, but that doesn't make them Shaman who follow a discipline devoted specifically to that thing. There is overlap, but they are different things. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 00:34, 17 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) I already know Arcane isn't inherently Necromantic but Necromancy is called Arcane, no need to bring up that analogy.


 * 2) I used your own logic against you, it's a fact that Arcane can do things that Death magic can't. So using your logic, Arcane magic and Death magic are not the same. And what was first termed "Necromancy" was "the arcane mysteries of life and death" according to a manual where Necromantic spells involve sacrifice/draining life and where the term demonic (fel) magic didn't exist.


 * 3) I am not placing "subcategories" above their parent categories, clearly you have disregarded my statement stating Arcane isn't inherently Necromantic and is something created. Necromancy is called "a school of the arcane", therefore necromantic (death) magic involves arcane ("is arcane?").


 * 4) Are you trolling? I can't be sure... Justin Parker did claim that Warlocks don't raise undead because he stated Warlocks and Necromancers follow different disciplines.


 * 5) Bringing up irrelevant analogies isn't helping your case. There are Necromantic spells that are created the same way as ALL Fel spells, and they do the same thing, and manifest with the same color:


 * Fel has been called Unholy in canon. Fel is created by converting/sacrificing your life force/energy. Fel Armor is created by converting/sacrificing your life force/energy to create armor. Unholy Armor is created by converting/sacrificing your life force/energy to create armor according to its description. What is the difference between the two?


 * Fel is described as giving a burning sensation and giving "slow death". Fel has been described as Unholy. Fel is created by converting/sacrificing your life force/energy. Unholy Power spell converts/sacrifices your life force to give power to your minion. Those under the effects of the Necromancers' spell, Unholy Frenzy, are described as moving so quickly that they feel their body begin to burn and ache.


 * https://twitter.com/swervelord12/status/522920833690259457


 * 6) The term Necromantic magic is stupid. If Necromantic magic is Arcane then Necromantic magic is something that is created because Arcane isn't inherently Necromantic, period.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 01:13, 17 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1/2/3/5/6) I never said arcane and necromancy were the same. Necromancy being called arcane doesn't mean all arcane is necromancy. Just because some necromancy spells share characteristics with fel doesn't mean all fel is necromantic or that all necromancy is fel.

4) Show me where Parker said warlocks don't raise undead. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 01:51, 17 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I never stated that you said Arcane and Necromancy were the same.


 * I already know Necromancy being called arcane doesn't mean all arcane is necromancy.


 * There are Necromantic spells that are created the same way as ALL Fel spells (key word: ALL).


 * Justin Parker is stating Warlocks don't raise undead by default when he states Warlocks and Necromancers follow different disciplines. Necromancers do what? Raise undead. If Warlocks raise undead then Warlocks and Necromancers don't follow different disciplines (they aren't separate), yet Justin Parker's statement lists them as separate. If Warlocks have overlapping abilities with Necromancers and can raise undead then why are they listed as separate? When Justin Parker lists Warlocks and Necromancers as separate and states Warlocks have overlapping abilities with Necromancers, he is implying Warlocks can use Necromancy without being Necromancer.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 02:08, 17 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection


 * Because not all warlocks can raise the dead. Only specific warlocks that have trained or studied the discipline of necromancy can do that (like the young necrolytes or the Shadow Council members). There are plenty of warlocks that never did anything related to necromancy, like all the regular warlocks who used to be clan shaman. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 02:17, 17 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I knew you were going to bring this up, and guess what? It's completely irrelevant:


 * 1) Justin Parker's statement applies to ALL Warlocks. And Micky himself states Gul'dan wasn't a Necromancer with Loreology backing him.


 * 2) Necromancy is not some complex art to someone who knows how to drain souls and bind souls to their will. How do you raise undead? By attaching a soul to a corpse/using life-force to animate a corpse. Forgetting how Galakrond animated undead proto-dragons? And forgetting how Necrotic Pact works?


 * http://www.wowhead.com/spell=111722/necrotic-pact


 * "Sacrifices life force to animate a minion, taking damage for all damage inflicted to the minion."


 * http://www.wowcards.info/card/azeroth/en/190/Kena-Shadowbrand
 * http://www.wowcards.info/card/azeroth/en/128/Life-Tap
 * http://www.wowcards.info/card/worldbreaker/en/104/Demonic-Soulstone


 * 3) There are some Necromantic spells that are created the same way as ALL Fel spells, through sacrifice, which is something you are completely ignoring. A Warlock who sacrifices life force is capable of animating the dead. And what is preventing a Warlock from summoning the spirit of his Voidwalker then commanding it to inhabit a corpse? As I recall, Warlocks were summoning demons to inhabit the bones of the dead.


 * And you're ignoring the fact that Fel magic was called Necromantic magic in Warcraft 2.


 * 4) Not every Necromancer has knowledge of how to raise undead either, they have to train for it. Kel'Thuzad was called a Necromancer when he was only capable of raising a critter for a few measly seconds. When you train as a Warlock, you are given the knowledge you need to be a Necromancer. There is a quest stating that lesser Warlocks NEED soul shards to summon demons. This implies that even lesser Warlocks know how to drain souls and trap souls into soul shards. Gul'dan stated that he'll summon the souls of the deceased Warlocks into human bodies (of course he also sacrificed his Necrolytes to give the Death Knights he raised more power). If a Warlock knows how to drain souls, trap souls, and summon souls then they know how to raise undead. It's that simple.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 02:31, 17 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection


 * 1/2) Yes... all warlocks... they are different discipline than necromancers, but they have some overlap. Linking a bunch of spells just shows where they're is overlap, it doesn't mean all warlocks are necromancers or that all necromancers are warlocks. Not all warlocks can do every single one of those things you linked. You're pulling individual spells from a variety of warlocks to try to prove they're all necromancers, when there are plenty of warlocks that can't do some of those abilities.


 * 3) I didn't ignore that at all. Just because some necromancy spells share traits with fel doesn't mean all necromancy spells are fel or that all fel spells are necromancy. You even say that some necromantic spells are created the same way as fel, that means you recognize that there are other necromantic spells that aren't.


 * 4)Kel'Thuzad may have been shitty at it, but he was still a necromancer, pursuing that specific discipline. Just because some warlocks know some of the component spells that can be used for necromancy doesn't mean they automatically know how to put them all together or raise the dead. And there are warlocks that don't know how to do those things with souls. Again, you can't just cherry-pick specific spells from specific warlocks and say it applies to all of them. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 05:19, 17 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) When Justin Parker states Warlocks and Necromancers pursue different disciplines but have overlap in abilities he is stating Warlocks can use Necromancy without being a Necromancer. What's so hard to understand about that?


 * If Justin Parker knew Warlocks raise undead he would have stated that Warlocks can also be Necromancers, but instead, he stated that they have overlap in abilities but follow different disciplines, which means he believes Warlocks don't raise undead, as I've stated earlier.


 * 2) I never stated all Necromancy spells are Fel. However, there are Necromantic spells THAT ARE CREATED THE SAME WAY AS ALL FEL SPELLS. What makes Death Coil Necromantic? It drains life, and that is what ALL Fel spells do. What makes Unholy Armor Necromantic? It requires sacrificing life. ALL Fel spells requires "sacrificing" life.


 * What is the result of destroying life? Is it not Death? If Fel is the result of "destroying" life then how is Fel not INHERENTLY Necromantic? Arcane is not the result of destroying life and is not inherently Necromantic. Fel is Necromancy, not all Necromancy is Fel.


 * 3) It doesn't matter if I cherry-pick specific spells from specific warlocks and apply it to all Warlocks because it does apply to all Warlocks. Stop treating Necromancy like some complex art to a Warlock because it's not. Necromancy is something that is tied to the Warlock arts. Raising undead involves either sacrificing life energy and using that energy to animate a minion or attaching a soul to a corpse. ALL Warlocks who knows how to Life Tap (sacrifice their own life energy) can use that energy to animate a corpse. ALL Warlocks who know how to summon demons knows how to drain souls, trap souls, and summon souls. Stop treating Necromancy as some separate school independent of the Warlock class that Warlocks have to train for in addition to their Warlock class, because it's not. A Warlock who learns how to summon demons has learned how to drain souls and trap them into soul shards (soul manipulation). A Warlock doesn't have to raise undead because that's his/her personal choice, but that still doesn't change the fact that Warlocks manipulate souls and can drain life and use that life they've drained to animate a corpse. And a Warlock doesn't have to raise undead but that still doesn't change the fact that some Necromantic spells are created the same way AS ALL Fel spells.


 * In ToD, Antonidas called the Orc Warlocks Necromancers because Khadgar explained to him how their magic killed their homeworld and Khadgar made no mention of the Orcs raising the dead what-so-ever. Micky called Warlocks Necromancers in his novel Blood of the Highborne then decided that Warlocks aren't Necromancers. What is the point of calling them Necromancers if they aren't? Surely there must be a reason why. Remember, Fel energy was called Necromantic energy in Warcraft 2 so any Warlock who uses Fel magic is using Necromantic magic. Warlocks also use Void magic. Shadow Bolt is called a Necromancer spell. What makes it Necromantic? It doesn't raise the dead. Why is it the playable Warlocks' first ability if it's a Necromancer spell? Warlocks and Necromancers train to use the same magic, Void and Fel. How are they different? Not all "Necromantic" spells raise the dead.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 16:46, 17 October 2014 (UTC)VisonOfPerfection

1) Yes... having overlap means warlocks can use necromancy without being necromancers... I understand that just fine. Do you? Because you then go on to falsely infer that means warlocks can't perform necromancy.

2a) You are again falsely inferring things that aren't in the literature. Death Coil is not necromantic because it drains life. It's necromantic because it is literally "bolts of death" called from the forces of darkness. It is an advanced form of Touch of Darkness, which doesn't drain life at all. Unholy Armor isn't necromantic because it sacrifices life, it is necromantic because it is powered by souls. Sacrificing personal life or soul energy is what binds the lost souls to the caster to be used in this spell.

2b) You falsely infer that destroying life = death. Yes, if you burn too much life energy, the victim will die (still not necromancy, killing things doesn't make it necromancy). But this is not necessarily the case. You can burn life energy just fine without killing the victim. Manipulating life energy to fuel spells is nowhere near the same as controlling the forces of death.

3) Except it doesn't apply to all warlocks. Not all warlocks can perform necromancy. You can't just pick individual spells from specific warlocks and say every warlock can do that. This is a gross overreach and jump in logic. Along with the other overreaches like asserting that summoning demons automatically means someone has learned how to manipulate and trap souls... WTF? How are they even remotely related? Just because these specific lesser warlocks in the quest need souls shards, doesn't mean all warlocks need them. Mages can summon demons without any kind of soul shards, it is not a general requisite.

You are also conflating player warlock abilities to mean that all warlocks can do those things in lore. PC warlocks are a specific brand of warlock and are not ubiquitous in lore.

And again, just because some warlocks know the individual component parts to a necromantic spell, doesn't mean they know how to put all those things together to get a successful result. It was a hard and time-consuming endeavor even for Gul'dan to put it together to make DKs, failing repeatedly. And the cases where warlocks are successful are just examples of overlap.

That's quite a leap to infer the reason Antonidas said necromancers. Hearing about orc necromancers of the 1st War, he may have just assumed all of their spellcasters were like that. Just because specific warlocks became necromancers doesn't mean warlocks and necromancers are the same thing. Fel magic was not called necromantic magic in WC2, fel wasn't mentioned at all. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 18:33, 17 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) It's clear that you didn't understand that because earlier in the discussion you were implying Warlocks can also be Necromancers if they raise the dead.


 * 2) The Touch of Darkness spell not draining life is irrelevant to the fact that Death Coil drains life, so why you're bringing up Touch of Darkness eludes me. W2 manual states Death Coil drains life, and in W3 the spell "heals" even though it's described as "bolts of death". The Warcraft 1's description of Unholy Armor is different from Warcraft 2's description of Unholy Armor, but they BOTH mention "sacrifice", while only 1 description mentions souls. Warcraft 1's Unholy Armor is constructed from souls and the person who is protected by this armor must sacrifice a portion of their SOUL to bind lost souls to themselves. Warcraft 2's Unholy Armor doesn't have anything to do with souls and is created by CONVERTING a portion of the recipient's life force. How is Unholy Armor Necromantic because it is powered by souls? Death Coil isn't powered by souls. Unholy Frenzy isn't powered by souls. Death Pact isn't powered by souls.


 * Death Pact: Through the sacrifice of his followers, a death knight can absorb their unholy energies and convert them into health for himself. Key word to focus on: Sacrifice


 * Unholy Frenzy is a Necromancer spell. What makes it Necromantic/Unholy? It causes the target to gain more power and move faster, and those under the effects of the spell find themselves moving so quickly that their bodies being to burn and ache, slowly dying. Fel "burns" life, slowly killing.


 * 3) It does apply to all Warlocks. What source(s) are you basing your logic off of? LESSER Warlocks use Soul Shards to summon demons, and Soul Shards contain what? Souls. In order for a soul to be inside a Soul Shard, it must be what? Trapped. In order to trap a soul you must do what? Drain the soul. If you know how to drain souls then you know how to what? Manipulate souls.


 * 4) I'm not conflating PC Warlocks' abilities to mean all Warlocks can do those things in the lore, however, YOU'RE the one insinuating that ALL Warlocks can't have simple spells in common. Shadow Bolt is a staple Warlock spell. Are you telling me all Warlocks can't use Shadow Bolt?


 * 5) Raising undead with conscious is something that not every Necromancer (including Scourge Necromancers) can do without time and the resources. The Necrolytes were raising undead through one method, but were failing to give them conscious, then Gul'dan introduced a new method, summoning souls into corpses. Are you telling me ALL Warlocks don't know how to summon demons/void-creatures into corpses? I'm pretty sure ALL Warlocks can summon demons, given the training of course.


 * 6) It's not quite a leap to infer the reason why Antonidas said Necromancers, Aaron states/believes Fel magic is Death magic, so if Khadgar was explaining to the Council how the Orcs' magic killed life, why would it be "quite a leap to infer" the reason why Antonidas said Necromancers?


 * 7) I don't think I can have a proper discussion with you because you're ignoring facts. The term Fel magic did not exist in Warcraft 1, 2, and 3. The term Demonic magic did not exist in Warcraft 1 and 2. Necromancy was stated to be Arcane in the W2 manual where Warlock magic was Arcane.


 * The Warcraft 1 manual states that the Temple was were Necromancers made their sacrifices. The Warcraft 2 manual states that the Temple of the Damned was where the DK's practiced Necromancy. The Warcraft 3 manual states the Temple of the Damned was used to channel demonic energies.


 * The Warcraft 2 manual states that the gems inside the DK's truncheons were infused with the NECROMANTIC energies of his slain Necrolytes (Gul'dan sacrificed these Necrolytes). When the truncheons were placed into the DKs' hand, they started to glow Green. Fel magic is created by "sacrificing" life and is canonically Green. Were these gems infused with Necromantic energies or Fel energies? Or was these Necromantic energies retcon'ed to Fel energies?VisionOfPerfection (talk) 20:56, 17 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) It's both. Warlocks can clearly become necromancers. And warlocks can use necromancy without becoming necromancers. Both instances have been demonstrated.

2) Death Coil is literally a more advanced version of Touch of Darkness, that makes it very relevant. Never said using bolts of death automatically kills. It's clearly stated to be "forces of darkness". WC2 Unholy Armor cites it as an "ancient" spell, making it related to the WC1 version. Unholy Frenzy causing physical stress from the increased exertion of moving so fast doesn't mean it is burning their life energy. The physical stress of wielding arcane magic prematurely ages people, doesn't mean it's burning their life energy.

3) Except not. It's plainly stated in the quest you're so fond of citing. "THESE lesser warlocks", it doesn't say all warlocks. It even notes that only some of Gul'dan's disciples can do it at all. And again, soul shards are not required for summoning demons in general. Other casters can do it just fine without them.

4) There are plenty of warlocks that don't use Shadow Bolt. There are even non-warlocks that can use it.

5) Considering an alternate universe is the first instance of warlocks summoning demons into corpses to reanimate them... yes, clearly not all warlocks can do this. Summoning a demon is different than putting it into a corpse to reanimate it.

6) What Rosenberg believes is not canon and directly contradicts what Blizzard story devs have stated. There is more than one explanation for why Antonidas said necromancers. Even if he thought they were synonymous, he's not omniscient.

7) It plainly states that the truncheons were infused with the raw necromantic energy of those necrolytes. Just because Gul'dan killed them to get that energy doesn't make it fel. He took that energy out of them, he didn't burn their life energy to create it. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 21:48, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

2) Fel energy can be used to heal anything. Death coil can only heal undead. It is necromantic because it literally calls upon the "forces of darkness" to shoot "bolts of death." Not all sacrifice = fel. Death Pact absorbs the unholy energies of an undead unit and transfers it to another undead unit, "heal" it. Unholy Frenzy is necromantic because they're using unholy powers from their "pact with death." --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 22:01, 17 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) Both Micky and Sean Copeland stated Gul'dan was not a Necromancer, which means that they are implying Warlocks can raise undead without being a Necromancer. You seem so keen on stating Warlocks can also be Necromancers all the while placing Micky on a pedestal but even he disagrees with you.


 * 2a) Death Coil is a variation of Touch of Darkness, so it's different, there is something that VARIES between the two spells, so it is different, common sense, so yes, the Touch of Darkness not draining life is irrelevant.


 * 2b)So if Death Coil doesn't automatically kill, what makes it Necromantic? Because it calls upon the forces of darkness? Would that mean all Shadow spells are Necromantic since it calls upon the "forces of darkness"?


 * 2c) The W2's Unholy Armor being related to W1's Unholy Armor doesn't mean they are entirely the same, there could be minor alterations made to the spell, which it appears to be the case. If W2's Unholy Armor is the same as W1's then the "life-force" the W2 manual is referring to would be the soul.


 * 2d) Unholy Frenzy's very description states that those under the influence of the spell find themselves moving so quickly that their bodies begin to burn and ache, slowly dying. Although Arcane prematurely ages the caster, Fel is something that "burns life", as it was described quite a few times, and when it "burns life" it doesn't necessarily mean Fel causes people to catch fire, it gives a burning sensation.


 * 3) You're taking that quest's description out of context. Some of his disciples can summon minor demons. LESSER Warlocks MUST use a Soul Shard. Greater disciples can summon greater demons and don't need to use a Soul Shard, hence some of his disciplines can summon minor demons and MUST use a Soul Shard, but just because greater Warlocks don't need to use Soul Shards doesn't mean they can't drain souls and trap souls into Soul Shards if they wanted to.


 * 4) Just because not ALL Warlocks use Shadow Bolt doesn't mean ALL CAN'T USE Shadow Bolt


 * 5a)This is not the first time Warlocks summoned souls into corpses. Forgetting Gul'dan and his Warlock Neophytes summoning souls into corpses?


 * 5b)Fel magic still inherently does what Necromantic magic does, so it's not quite a leap to infer the reason why Antonidas said Necromancers.


 * 5c) Micky is not omniscient and what he stated contradicts what he has stated in his very own book, Blood of the Highborne. Micky called Warlocks "Vile Necromancers" and later goes on to state that Gul'dan was not a Necromancer.


 * 6)Why do you keep on using the term "burn" as if Fel magic automagically = Fire? Fel takes life energy from people:


 * http://www.wowcards.info/card/ancients/en/63/Soul-Trap
 * http://www.wowcards.info/card/worldbreaker/en/104/Demonic-Soulstone


 * ^ See how the flavor text for Soul Trap states: Fel magic has a profound effect on the soul - both the victim's and the warlock's.?


 * Demonic Soulstone takes the life energy/force and is used to raise the victim.


 * Gul'dan took the life energy/force from his Necrolytes and trapped their souls inside hearts (which were shaped into gems).


 * So were these Soulstones Necromantic or Demonic?VisionOfPerfection (talk) 22:58, 17 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection


 * And in response to your last post....that is completely ridiculous. Death Coil DRAINS the LIFE of the living to heal undead. Undead are those who have died and had life essence/soul returned to them, so when a Death Knight sacrifices his minion, he is sacrificing the remaining life essence his minion contains. When Undead are healed, they are healed by life essence. And those under the effects of Unholy Frenzy contain life essence. How would an undead minion slowly die from Unholy Frenzy if it's already dead and has no life essence inside? If "death energy" heals undead and if Unholy Frenzy is a "death" spell then why would the undead slowly die instead of heal? Undead still contains a portion of life energy/soul, so Death Knights are actually sacrificing life essence, not death essence. Sacrficing life essence causes death, slowly or quicklyVisionOfPerfection (talk) 23:00, 17 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) Warlocks can become necromancers. They never said warlocks can't also be necromancers. They just said they aren't the same thing. Being a warlock doesn't automatically make you a necromancer and being a necromancer doesn't automatically make you a warlock. People can learn how to do both, then they would be a warlock and a necromancer. They are different disciplines, but that doesn't mean someone can't learn both.

2a) The point is that Touch of Darkness is necromantic and has nothing to do with draining life, hence Death Coil's property of draining life is not what makes it necromantic. They both shoot dark essence of the underworld (most likely the Realm of Shadows).

2b) It's a "bolt of death". The life energy isn't being returned to them, they are consuming it to replenish their strength. They aren't copy/pasting the life energy into themselves. Both Death Coil and Touch of Darkness shoot out dark energy. It's this dark energy that heals undead when used on them.

2d) Sentence structure indicates that they are burning and aching as a result of moving fast (physical exertion), not because of the magic empowering them. They are slowly dying from the effects, not the magic empowering them. This is why it hurts undead too. It's not the magic energy that hurts the recipient, it's the result of moving so fast.

3) You're taking the quest description out of context by saying it applies to all warlocks. I'm going by what it literally says, exactly in the context with which it is used. It specifically says those warlocks need soul shards to summon demons. Even non-warlocks can summon demons without soul shards.

4) You have no basis to claim a warlock who doesn't use a spell, actually knows it but chooses not to. This falls under the realm of fanon.

5a) Summoning a soul into a corpse is not the same as summoning a demon into a corpse.

5b) Fel manipulates life energy and is explicitly stated to be different from death magic. Fel can be used to power necromancy, but so can other magics.

6) The material literally says that Gul'dan took the necromantic energy from the Necrolytes, not their life force. "Into these jewels were infused the raw, necromantic magiks of the freshly slain Necrolytes." --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 05:24, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * @Aquamonkeyeg, seems accurate and precise. Not bad. I say just do a vote and just end this cantankerous argument.  05:46, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) You seem to enjoy circulating around the fact that Justin Parker stated Warlocks have overlapping abilities with Necromancers but follow different disciplines. Stating Warlocks can use Necromancy without being a Necromancer implies Warlocks aren't the same thing as Necromancers but they have overlap in abilities and the Historians are under the impression that Warlocks can raise undead without being a Necromancer. I even gave Micky canon examples of Warlocks such as Gul'dan raising undead and being called Necromancers only to get some crap statement from Loreology that insinuates Gul'dan, of all Warlocks, is limited only to fel magic.


 * 2a) Both Death Coil and Touch of Darkness shoot dark essence of the underworld, so are they Necromantic because they are Void spells? Does this mean void magic is Necromantic?


 * 2b) W2's Death Coil drains life from the target, it states it in the very description. If the Death Knight creates the bolt of death, why would he/she need to drain the life of the target to heal himself/herself?


 * 2d) Are you aware Fel magic has been called Unholy, can be used to incite a frenzy, and make people move so quickly that their body begins to "burn and ache"?


 * http://www.wowcards.info/card/drums/en/82/Unholy-Power
 * http://www.wowcards.info/card/betrayer/en/109/Curse-of-Frenzy
 * http://www.wowhead.com/spell=111400/burning-rush


 * 3) When the quest description says "those warlocks need soul shards" it was referring to LESSER Warlocks, not greater Warlocks who already know how to drain souls and trap souls into Soul Shards. Mages rarely summon demons and demons can be summoned through Arcane, however, I am discussing Warlocks who generally use Fel. Greater Warlocks don't need soul shards to summon demons.


 * 4) There is basis to the fact that a Warlock who doesn't use a spell, actually knows it but chooses not to. Your statement makes it seem like you're under the impression that a Warlock has to spew shadow bolts from his hands 24/7 in order to know how to use it. There are simple spells that don't require a complex incantation.


 * 5a) It doesn't matter if a demon's soul is being summoned into a corpse or an orc's soul, the concept is still the same.


 * 5b) I don't know what point you're trying to make. Fel can indeed raise AND empower undead. What makes Death magic Arcane and not Fel?


 * 6) Arcane is not inherently Necromantic. Gul'dan SACRIFICED the life of his Necrolytes THEN took their "energies" and infused them inside the gems. The Necromantic energies were something created by sacrifice, and the Orc's were saturated with Fel energies, especially the Orc Warlocks, they were not saturated with Arcane energies,.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 06:58, 18 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) So what if they have overlapping abilities? They are different disciplines, being one doesn't automatically make someone the other. People can pursue both and become both. Or they can stick to one and have overlap with the other while being in their own discipline. I already gave you another example in mages and shaman. Different disciplines with overlap regarding manipulating elements and elementals, but people can learn to be both. There's nothing to infer about warlocks being different than necromancers, they are explicitly stated to be different, but that doesn't mean they can't have some things in common.

2a) Isn't necessarily Void, but certainly Void related as indicated by Voidcaller lanterns bridging the realms of living and dead. Realm of Shadows may be a subsection of the Void. Or it may be something different, that shares some things in common.

2b) Yes, the WC2 version drains the life-force, but that drained life-force itself isn't being imparted for healing. This isn't Health Funnel or Drain Life. That stolen life-force is consumed to replenish strength, the healing is a game mechanic.

2d) And dark energies are also called unholy. So what? Something being called "unholy" doesn't automatically make it fel. Mages can make themselves move faster without using unholy or fel. You are conflating effect with source. Burning rush is sacrificing life energy to power the spell. The burning and aching from Unholy Frenzy is an aftereffect of moving so fast.

3) The quest says "these lesser warlocks". These specific lesser warlock disciples working under AU Gul'dan. Not all lesser warlocks. Just because those specific ones know how to drain/trap souls doesn't mean all warlocks know how to do this. Not even MU Gul'dan initially knew how to trap souls into jewels, he only figured it out years after first becoming a warlock when he tried to make DKs.

4) What basis? You're pointing to abilities of a specific group of warlocks and insinuating that all warlocks everywhere know how to do them. If a specific warlock doesn't demonstrate the ability to perform a spell, there is no basis to say that they know how to do it. Warlock magic evolves and is developed differently by different individuals/groups of warlocks. There is no universality to their skill sets.

5a) Concept =/= practice.

5b) Fel can do those things, so can other energies. Fel is explicitly stated to not be death magic. The first instance of necromancy (publishing-wise) was literally called the "arcane mysteries of life and death" and is classified as a school of arcane by the Kirin Tor. But that doesn't mean all necromancy is arcane. Just like not all necromancy is fel. Just like not all necromancy is troll juju. The realm of the dead itself is more closely related to the Void.

6) Except those necromantic energies were not created by the sacrifice... the raw necromantic energies were already in the necrolytes. Gul'dan just killed them so he could harvest it. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 08:45, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) Are you that dumb that you can't understand that Warlocks having overlapping abilities with Necromancers means that Warlocks who use Necromancy aren't Necromancers? Even if a Warlock pursues "the Necromancer discipline", Sean Copeland, Micky, and Justin Parker still think that Warlocks can't be Necromancers BUT can overlap in abilities, hence they are listed as separate. I don't understand why it's so difficult for you to understand this.


 * In simple words: You state Warlocks can also be Necromancers, but the Lore Historians + Micky state they can't.


 * Your example of Mages and non-Dark Shaman being different = Irrelevant
 * Mages usually study Arcane magic, and they use Arcane magic to bend the elements. Non-Dark Shaman invoke elementals and act as a guide for them instead of manipulating them through Arcane magic. Dark Shaman are different from non-Dark Shaman because they twist/torture/force the elements and Dark Shaman are different from Mages as well although they both manipulate elementals against their will.


 * Both Warlocks and Necromancers "harness" the Void the same way and wield the Void the same way. Mages and Shamans don't "harness" the elementals the same way.


 * 2a) And what point are you trying to make? You still didn't answer the question, is Touch of Darkness and Death Coil Necromantic because it's Void magic? Warlocks wield Void magic. Warlocks and Necromancers wield the same magics, harnesses the same magics the same way, and they use their magics for the SAME THING, killing OR raising dead, let's forget raising undead for a moment. Necromancers use what? Void and Fel magic. If they aren't using their magic to raise undead, what else do they do with their magic? Kill the living. Fel magic "kills" life and Warlocks use Fel. Warlocks also wield Void to kill their enemies.


 * 2b) The description for W2's Death Coil states the life-force is consumed, replenishing strength. Notice how the description states life-force and not death-force? When the life-force replenishes strength, it is healing, hence it heals, in W1, W2, and in the World of Warcraft game.


 * 2d) Burning Rush doesn't actually cause you to burn with fire to move faster. You move fast because of the spell and you slowly die, having your life slowly seep out. Unholy Frenzy: Those UNDER the INFLUENCE of this SPELL find themselves moving so quickly that their bodies begin to burn and ache, slowly dying.


 * ^Those who are burning, aching, and slowly dying are doing so while UNDER the influence of the spell, just like those UNDER the influence of Burning Rush


 * 3) Being in an alternate universe is irrelevant, there are only 3 known ways to summon demons: Using Arcane magic (which Warlocks usually don't wield/don't use as often as Fel magic) to create a portal, using Soul Shards (which lesser Warlocks MUST use), or sacrificing the life around you to create a portal to summon demons. Since Warlocks usually don't wield Arcane magic/don't use it as often as Fel magic, I am focusing on the other two known ways to summon demons (which both employs Fel magic). Gul'dan's greater Warlocks don't use Soul Shards, so they must be sacrificing the life around them to summon demons (unless they use Arcane). Gul'dan's lesser Warlocks NEED Soul Shards. Greater Warlocks don't need to use Soul Shards, but lesser Warlocks do (unless those lesser Warlocks know how to summon demons through Arcane magic)


 * And Gul'dan knew how to trap souls into Soul Shards in Rise of the Horde, not years after when he tried to create DK's.


 * “The will to survive was powerful, Gul’dan thought as he readied himself for sleep. He had taken to sleeping in the Black Temple, in a room he had had redesigned specifically for him. In it, he placed in a ritualized fashion all the trinkets and tools he needed to properly command the demons he summoned: SHARDS from draenei SOULS, certain stones for the larger creatures, potions to help him keep his energy up when it flagged.”
 * Excerpt From: Golden, Christie. “World of Warcraft: Rise of the Horde.” Pocket Star Books. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright.


 * 4) You need to learn the difference between CAN and DOING. I can jog to school, but I prefer walking, so I'm not going to jog. Just because I don't demonstrate the ability to jog doesn't mean I can't. Just because Archimonde didn't demonstrate the ability to raise undead doesn't mean he couldn't raise undead. Some spells are simple and don't require a lengthy incantation. Fel magic is created by sacrificing life, are you telling me ALL Warlocks who use Fel magic don't know how to sacrifice their own life via Life Tap spell?


 * 5) Summoning is summoning whether you summon a demon by sacrificing life to create a portal or summon an Orc by sacrificing life to create a portal. Summoning is summoning whether you're summoning a demon by using a Soul Shard or summoning an Orc by using a Soul Shard. Summoning is summoning whether you summon a demon from an Arcane portal or summoning an Orc from an Arcane portal. Summoning a demon who is trapped in a Soul Shard is the same as summoning a person who is trapped in a Soul Shard.


 * 5b) Galakrond was beef-headed, and even he knew how to raise undead, he didn't cast any spells to bind life essence to proto-dragons. Fel does Necromantic things INHERENTLY. Ex: Draining life energy and leaving that life energy to spread like radiation (Galakrond draining life energy then leaving traces of life energy to radiate near the bones causing the bones to animate) (Brutallus' Felblood draining out of his body and spreading into Madrigosa's body, animating her as an undead dragon). Fel is something that drains life energy, but where is that life energy being drained into? Where is the life energy going? Galakrond drained life energy and his undead proto-dragons were a result of him leaving traces of life energy near their bones. A certain amount of life essence that is drained and seeps into bones/corpses will animate them.


 * 6) Arcane energy is not Green and is not created from sacrifice. Are you forgetting that the Orcs, especially the Orc Warlocks were saturated with Fel energies, not Necromantic energies, and that Fel manifests with a Green color? The truncheons contained these gems Gul'dan created and when these truncheons were placed into the DK's hands they started to glow Green, not the Violet and/or White color of Arcane. Arcane is not inherently Necromantic, so stating the Necromantic energies were already there for Gul'dan to harvest is asinine, the Necromantic energies were created by sacrificing life, and to state that these Necromantic energies were Arcane and were already there for Gul'dan to harvest is to state Arcane is inherently Necromantic, and I will not tolerate such dumb logic.


 * You're also forgetting the W1 manual which states the Temple was where Necromancers performed their sacrifices, the W2 manual which states DK's practiced Necromancy, and the W3 manual which states the Temple was used to channel DEMONIC ENERGIES.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 16:31, 18 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) Again... just because they are different disciplines doesn't mean someone can't pursue both. Nowhere did Copeland, Neilson, or Parker say that someone couldn't pursue both. These are learned skills, just because you learn one doesn't mean you are forever locked out of the other. Shaman and warlocks are different disciplines, but shaman have learned to be warlocks. Some of those warlocks went back to being shaman. They learned both disciplines.

2a) Never said it was Void magic. Not all Void magic is necromantic. The necromantic stuff is death magic from the realm of the dead (which just happens to be related to Void in an unknown way). Fel is from the manipulation of life energy. Death magic is energy from the realm of the dead. Fel and death magic originate from different realms of existence.

2b) Yes... the life-force is consumed. When an undead is healed by death energy, they aren't consuming that energy, it is being directly applied to them as a heal. WC3 version (just like the WoW DK version) says nothing about life force, it's just shooting death energy out to heal undead or injure living. The warlock version functions like Drain Life, drawing the life-force directly into the caster.

2d) Never said it did... Burning Rush is powered by sacrificing life energy, that's why the caster is "burning"; they are burning their life-force to power the spell. "Drains 4% of your maximum health per second to increase your movement speed by 50%." With Unholy Frenzy, the burning and aching sensation are the result of moving fast; it's the physical stress on the body. It literally says this: "find themselves moving so quickly that their bodies begin to burn and ache, slowly dying from the effects of their unholy frenzy." They move so fast that these things happen. It's not that these things happen to power the spell like with Burning Rush.

3/4) Getting back on topic, your claim was that because these lesser warlocks can create/use soul shards, all warlocks can. ...There's a difference between acquired skills and something that is instinctive. Jogging is instinctive. Spellcasting is an acquired skill. It doesn't matter how simple the spell is, people have to be taught or experiment to figure it out for themselves. Warlocks don't learn Life Tap until level 16, so yes, clearly not all warlocks who know how to wield fel know how to sacrifice their own life. Before a warlock learns how to do a spell, they don't know how to do it; it's that simple. And if someone doesn't demonstrate the ability to do a spell, there is no way to determine if they can (unless it is stated they taught it to someone else).

Your Archimonde example is quite apt, but is incongruous with your other arguments. If a caster doesn't perform a spell, there is no way to determine that they can or can't actually do it. But you are making the positive claim that they CAN do those things even when they don't. I never said they can't, just that you can't make that positive claim.

5) Just because the concept is the same, doesn't mean they are the same in practice, especially when fueled by different magical energies.

5b) See 2a.

6) The passage literally says the necromantic energies was already there in the necrolytes. It wasn't something Gul'dan created, he merely harvested it from their bodies. This was RAW necromantic energy. See 2a.

Just because they are performing sacrifices doesn't mean it is fel. Fel is created by sacrificing and harnessing life energy. The sacrifices at the WC1 Temple had nothing to do with harnessing energy, it was just a ritual to appease their gods. Ritually killing things in a sacrifice can just as likely be used to gain a connection with the realm of death. It also gives them corpses that they can use for raising dead. WC2 Temple of the Damned was where DKs experimented on corpses from battlefields, this is different from the WC1 Temple. These Temples of the Damned were created by Gul'dan for the warlocks turned DKs, makes sense they would channel demonic energy. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 18:52, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1a) You're forgetting that Micky was asked if Gul'dan was a Warlock OR a Necromancer, and he stated that he was a Warlock INSTEAD of stating that Gul'dan was BOTH Warlock AND Necromancer.
 * 1b) You're also forgetting that I reminded Micky that Gul'dan created DK's only to have dumb Sean Copeland reply with "All I know is Warlock and Necromancy are two different schools" in response to the question if Gul'dan was a Warlock or a Necromancer INSTEAD of replying with "Someone can pursue both "schools"".


 * 1c) You're also forgetting that Justin Parker stated Warlocks and Necromancers have overlapping abilities but pursue different disciplines. This means Necromancers raise undead and Warlocks summons demons (they follow different disciplines). If Warlocks do raise undead and can also be a Necromancer, Justin Parker's statement should have been: Necromancy is an art that can be attained through Arcane, Void, or Fel and Warlocks who pursue that course can be both Warlocks AND Necromancers. I already know Warlocks can raise undead if they follow that course and still be Warlocks, ex: Gul'dan, however, the Lore Hisorians don't.


 * 2a) This falls under fanon. Necromancy is a School of the Arcane, not a School of Void. Necromancy is something that can be attained through Arcane, Void, or Fel, so why would Death magic be Void or Arcane and not Fel? The term Death magic is stupid because it's just another way of stating Necromantic magic, and Necromancy is an art, not an actual type of magic.


 * 2b) Death Coil is Green, not the Purplish-Black color of the Void. If W3's Death Coil is related to W2's Death Coil then it's the life-force that is being consumed and it's a FACT that Fel can animate undead, heal undead, and empower undead. Fel is considered dark magic and Death Coil doesn't automatically kill, so Fel can be used create "Green bolts of darkness" that drains life of the target and heal/strengthen undead. Fel does THE SAME THING as Death Coil, drains life AND heal/empower undead. Yes, Fel can heal anything, but using Fel to heal means causing death, albeit slowly to something/someone.


 * 2d) Slowly dying because you're moving so fast (Unholy Frenzy) is the same thing as slowly dying because you're moving so fast (Burning Rush). You're sacrificing life (slowly dying) WHILE UNDER the influence of the two spells.


 * 3/4) You're using an in-game mechanic to support your claim that Warlocks can know to wield Fel magic without knowing how to Life Tap, but it defies common sense. Fel magic is CREATED by sacrificing life. If a person knows how to sacrifice the life of others, why wouldn't he/she know how to /Life Tap? Yes, a Warlock has to learn/train how to wield/harness Fel magic and Void magic, but once he/she knows how to wield/harness Fel magic and Void magic, he/she can construct his/her own spells. Shadow Bolt harnesses the shadows into a simple bolt of darkness that you shoot, it requires you to harness the shadows and shoot it, it's simple, and does not need an incantation. Are you aware that some spells can be cast without stating a single word?


 * Yes, my Archimonde example is quite apt indeed, and it is congruous with my other "arguments". Fel energy has been shown to INHERENTLY raise the dead or trap spirits/ghosts, ex: Brutallus' felblood raising Madrigosa into undeath, Felmyst's Demonic Vapor animating undead skeletons, the ghosts inhabiting Kharazan, the Fel Spirits in Outland. Galakrond DRAINED the life-force of proto-dragons, then left behind traces of life-force so that it could seep into the bones of his victims, causing them to become animated as undead. Fel DRAINS the life-force and can be used to animate corpses/bones if the life-force seeps into it. A Warlock who knows how to wield Fel magic knows how to drain life, which means he/she knows how to manipulate life-force, which means he/she can use the life-force he/she drains to animate bones by manipulating that life-force into their bones. It's so simple even a beef-headed proto-dragon can do it.


 * 5) We don't even know if Gul'dan used Fel magic to summon the souls of Teron'gor and the other Warlocks into corpses, and it's most likely that he did use Fel magic.


 * 5b) See 2a)


 * 6a) You're placing your own words into the W2 manual, do you think I can't look at the Warcraft 2 manual myself? I have all the manuals on PDF, so I can search up information on a whim. The passage states, "Into these jewels were infused the raw, necromantic magiks of the freshly SLAIN Necrolytes." The manual doesn't state that these necromantic magiks were inside the Necrolytes. And you're forgetting, the Orcs were saturated with Fel energies, not Arcane energies.


 * These Orc Necrolytes were predominately Warlocks, and were not undead, and the Orcs, especially the Orc Warlocks were saturated with Fel energies. Arcane is not inherently Necromantic, THAT IS A FACT. The Warcraft 2 manual states that Necromancy is Arcane, and so if the Necromantic energies that Gul'dan took from the Necrolytes were Arcane AND were already inside the Necrolytes then this implies that Arcane is inherently Necromantic, which it is absolutely not. Gul'dan got these Necromantic energies by sacrificing his Necrolytes and harnessing their life-force/soul.


 * 6b) Your very own statement defeats itself. You stated: "Fel is created by sacrificing and harnessing life energy" Gul'dan SACRIFICED his Necrolytes and harnessed their life energy.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 20:32, 18 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) There are warlocks with abilities that overlap with necromancers. There are necromancers with abilities that overlap with warlocks. Then there are warlocks without any overlap with necromancers. And there are necromancers without any overlap with warlocks. Then there are those who pursue both disciplines. Gul'dan was a warlock with overlapping abilities with necromancers, but wasn't an actual necromancer.

2a) It's clearly stated that death magic comes from the underworld. You're the one who keeps insisting that it is Void. I already noted the clear distinction and that it might be Void related. Fel comes from the realm of the living. There is a type of necromancy that the Kirin Tor classified as a school of arcane and there are "arcane mysteries of life and death" which can be turned into necromancy. But there are other types of necromancy that have nothing to do with arcane or fel. There is an actual death energy that comes from the underworld. There is an actual realm of the dead.

2b) They aren't directly related. They are utilized by completely different types of DKs, created by different people and through different means. But they both use death energies. You're too hung up on color. Who's to say the actual death energies from the underworld can't also be green?

2d) Except that's not how Burning Rush works... You keep conflating a precursor with an aftereffect. Dying slowly is what powers the speed of Burning Rush. You drain your life in order to move fast. With Unholy Frenzy, the slow dying is a result of moving so fast. Also, there's no gauge to determine how fast either goes. All that is known is that with Unholy Frenzy, the person moves too fast for their body to handle it.

3/4) Because there are other ways to get fel. It can be bestowed upon someone without that person knowing anything about creating it themselves. Fel magic itself can be drained/consumed directly without the person knowing how to create it themselves. Funny how things like silence stop people from casting Shadow Bolts. And even spells that don't require an incantation still require focus and concentration of the caster.

Your making a bunch of fallacious leaps here. Just because someone knows one thing doesn't automatically grant them knowledge about something more advanced. Until they actually do it, there is no way to determine whether or not they can. And just because one person can do something, doesn't mean someone else can too.

6) "OF THE" is possessive to necrolytes. It is their RAW necromantic energies which was placed into the jewels. They are necromancers, of course they're empowered by necromantic energy. It's plainly stated that the necrolytes have close ties to these dark forces. The mysteries of life and death are arcane, and this area of study was called necromancy. The energy itself used by these spellcasters is clearly shown to come from the realm of the dead.

6b) Except he didn't. Gul'dan sacrificed them and harnessed their raw necromantic energies. It says nothing about harnessing their life energy. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 23:20, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * At this point it is clear that you're either trolling or genuinely clueless.


 * 1) Gul'dan pursued both disciplines but wasn't an actual Necromancer you state? Please provide an example of a Warlock who was clearly both Warlock and Necromancer.


 * 2a) YOU'RE THE ONE INSISTING that death magic is Void-related, I'm just asking you if spells like Death Coil and Touch of Darkness are Necromantic because they are Void-related, like you're insisting. I'm not insisting that death magic is Void at all. The Warlocks' fire magic and the demons they summoned also came from the underworld. This "Underworld" would be the Twisting Nether and the "Realm of Shadows" that you're bringing up, clearly.


 * 2b) See 2a)


 * 3/4) I am discussing Warlocks who use/manipulate Fel magic, not people who consume Fel magic unaware. And of course a caster has to think/concentrate when he/she is harnessing magic.


 * 5) I am not making fallacious leaps, YOU'RE the one who consistently makes fallacious leaps here. Creating Shadow Bolts and animating undead is not some advance/complex art. Galakrond drained life-force from proto-dragons and left traces of life-force to seep into the bones of his victims, animating them as undead. Galakrond eats proto-dragon -> He spits out bones that radiates life-force -> The bones become animated. <-Not a complex art at all. As I stated, raising undead is not some complicated art to a Warlock who manipulates life-force and can drain and trap souls. Warlocks who manipulates Fel magic manipulates life-force, the Warlock who manipulates life-force takes the life-force he/she is manipulating and let it saturate bones/corpses and it becomes animated. This is how the Necrotic Pact spell works, you sacrifice/drain your own life-force, you then let the life-force seep into bones/corpses and it becomes animated. And Fel has been shown to inherently raise undead, and that's a fact you can't argue against.


 * 6a) You're forgetting a word, "of the SLAIN" Necrolytes. You're always removing/adding words from a statement and using it to support your "argument". And you are STILL implying Arcane is inherently Necromantic. The Necromantic energies used by the Necrolytes and Death Knights came from the Underworld, but so did the Warlocks' fire magic and the demons they summoned. The Underworld would be today's Twisting Nether, not the Void. Necromancy was called Arcane mysteries and the Necromantic energies came from the Underworld (Twisting Nether), not the Void. This Necromantic energy was "Arcane" and you believe the Necromantic energies that were pulled from the Necrolytes were not created and have already existed inside the Necrolytes, you are implying that Arcane is inherently Necromantic.


 * 6b) Gul'dan harnessed the Necrolytes' life-force/soul after they were sacrificed and trapped it into gems.


 * 7) This is probably where the confusion comes from:


 * Soul Trap is a Fel/Demonic spell.


 * http://www.wowcards.info/card/ancients/en/63/Soul-Trap


 * Soulstone resurrects the victim as undead and is a Fel/Demonic spell.


 * http://www.wowcards.info/card/worldbreaker/en/104/Demonic-Soulstone


 * Loreology states Fel magic and Necromancy (Necromantic magic) are two different types of magic. Would raising undead with Fel magic really be considered Necromancy? Would a Warlock who uses Fel magic to raise undead be a Necromancer? Perhaps raising undead with Fel magic would fall under Warlock and not Necromancer and perhaps these overlapping abilities Warlocks have with Necromancers are Void abilities


 * At this point we can only wait for an explanation, one that tells us what makes a spell Necromantic, but I assure you, if the Lore Historians state Fel isn't inherently Necromantic their explanation will not be satisfactory. They will state something like: Fel inherently raises undead, heals undead, and empowers undead and can be used to destroy undead if someone forcibly sacrifices/drains the remaining life energy from the undead but isn't Necromantic but Arcane can be Necromantic if it's used to do the things Fel does inherently.


 * Sure, Fel can be used to heal and empower living and not be used to raise undead since Fel is something that can be manipulated/channeled and there aren't always corpses available to animate, but it heals and empowers living at the expense of life-force, it causes death, slowly or quickly, so perhaps Warlocks are a type of Necromancer that focuses more on the causing death part of Necromancy instead of raising the dead part of NecromancyVisionOfPerfection (talk) 01:47, 19 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

"Slain" is a descriptor for the nercolytes, it doesn't change the fact that "of the" is possessive to the necrolytes. The raw necromantic energies belonged to them, who are now slain. Take this sample sentence following the exact same syntax: "Into the trash was put the hamburger of the freshly satiated man." The adjective "satiated" doesn't change the fact that the hamburger belongs to the man.

Basically this boils down to you seeing things as fel when they are explicitly not. Death magic energy comes from the realm of the dead, this is plainly stated in the descriptions for the old orc and Scourge necromantic abilities. Fel comes from manipulating life energies, hence originates from the realm of the living. Realm of living =/= realm of dead.

The realm is specifically referenced as "underworld", "Hel", and "Hades"; all of which are synonyms for the realm of the dead. Blizzard didn't change this to be the Twisting Nether. There still exists an actual realm of the dead. Blizzard just changed the home realm of demons to be the Twisting Nether instead of the realm of the dead. And separated the warlock magic into being mostly fel-"burn life"-based instead of merely channeling energy directly from the underworld. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 09:37, 19 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) You are still implying that Arcane is inherently Necromantic. And "Of the" being possessive to the necrolytes doesn't mean the necromantic energies of the slain necrolytes were inside them like you have been stating. The burger that was placed into the trash is not inside the freshly satiated man. And you're forgetting that these were SACRIFICED Orcs who were also Warlocks, and had Fel energies inside them. These Necrolytes were not undead when Gul'dan was harnessing their souls and trapping it.


 * 2) I already know that there is a realm of shadows. It is clear that the "Underworld", "Hel", and "Hades" are all synonyms for realm of the "dead", however, the term Underworld and Hades aren't used often, if not anymore, and was used in Warcraft where the Underworld was where the Warlocks' fire and the demons they summoned also came from. The magic Warlocks wielded was Arcane in Warcraft and Necromancy was Arcane mysteries in Warcraft, and Arcane energies are found in the Twisting Nether, and the Twisting Nether is where demons reside. Warcraft's "Underworld" would be today's Twisting Nether AND the Realm of the Shadows. When someone dies in the realm of the living, their corpse is still in the realm of the living, but their soul may be in the realm of the "dead" as you call it (I prefer to use Realm of Shadows instead), and so both the Twisting Nether and the Realm of Shadows can be referred to as "Hell" or "Hades" although they are different (there does seem to be an overlap between the planes), and Arcane energies still come from the Twisting Nether and demons still reside there, and has also been described as a "hellish" place. Blizzard basically took a small chunk of Wacraft's "Underworld" and made it into the Realm of Shadows and left the larger chunk of Warcraft's Underworld to be today's Twisting Nether.


 * If you wanted to state Death magic comes from the realm of the "dead" then you should have just stated that instead of stating it came from Warcraft's Underworld. And where is your source stating Death magic comes SOLELY from the realm of the "dead"? I personally hate the term death/necromantic magic because I consider Necromancy an art, but Necromancy was called Arcane mysteries and a School of the Arcane, so clearly not all "Necromantic" magic energies come from the realm of the "dead" like you're insisting. Perhaps Arcane magic is just manipulating/bending these death energies and the death energies aren't Arcane at all? The book in Dalaran certainly implies Necromantic magic is Arcane. And the Scourge's abilities were definitely Void-related, like you have stated (the realm of the "dead" may be another way of stating the Void, but we don't know if they are the same thing yet). So the question is, what makes a spell Necromantic? Even if spells are Necromantic because it employs "death" energy which "comes from the realm of the "dead"" (supposedly), death magic still doesn't always automatically kill and still does the same thing Fel does inherently, and necromantic spells requires you to harness/sacrifice/drain life force (the soul has also been called life-force as well as I recall). The only example I can think of Necromancy being used without harnessing/draining/sacrificing life-force is Meryl Felstrom who gradually went into a state of undeath through Arcane magic, but would that really be Necromancy? Is his soul still perfectly attached to his body? Why would Meryl use Necromancy to keep himself "alive"? Does he constantly use dark magic to sustain himself? Wouldn't that mean he has lost/sacrificed a part of his soul for using dark magic? He doesn't seem like the type of person who would do that anyways. Why would a Necromancer have to sacrifice his/her own life-force to animate an undead minion via the Necrotic Pact spell when all he/she has to do is call upon death energy from the realm of the "dead" to animate "undead"? Why did Galakrond have to drain life-force then leave traces of life-force to seep into bones to animate undead when he can just call upon death energy from the realm of the "dead" (hur lol hur hur)? Why did Brutallus' felblood have to DRAIN out of his body to animate Madrigosa as undead?


 * So..........this is what the Lore Historians will state:


 * Fel and Death magic both involves sacrificing/draining life-force, does the same thing inherently, and looks the same, but Fel magic comes from the realm of the living and Death magic comes from the realm of the dead.


 * GotchaVisionOfPerfection (talk) 19:06, 19 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) It is the nercolyte's necromantic energies. It belongs to them being slain doesn't change the fact that the energy belongs to them when they were alive. Nowhere does it say it this energy was fel.

2) Realm of the dead has existed in Warcraft lore since the very beginning, and still exists. What the orc warlocks and necromancers used were "arcane arts", the energy itself was channeled from the realm of the dead and was never mentioned to be arcane. Arcane didn't also become a type of energy until WC2, when Blizz created the Twisting Nether. This is also when Blizz split up "dark" and "arcane" energies. They hadn't completely fleshed out what the TN was yet either. In WC2, the TN became the source of arcane energy, still had dead spirits in it like the underworld, and wasn't separated from the Great Dark Beyond. Eventually, Blizz completely separated the 3 realms.

Underworld literally means realm of the dead. I used underworld because that was the phrase used in WC1. I feel there should be clarification. There is death magic the art and death magic the energy, for lack of better phrases and because sometimes Blizz uses "[blank] magic" to mean the art and sometimes to mean the energy. Death magic the art is necromancy and can be achieved through different energies. Just like how in WC1, arcane arts can be achieved through death energy. Death magic the energy (aka necromantic magiks) comes from the realm of the dead as indicated by the spell descriptions in the RTS series; the spellcasters are channeling/calling upon this energy from that realm. This is similar to how people channel/call upon Light energy. Fel magic is not an art form, it's a type of energy, which is why I was comparing it to death magic the energy, and not necromancy. Death and fel can drain life, but they are different categories and come from different realms. Death magic the energy isn't created from sacrificing/draining life-force, it is channeled from the realm of the dead. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 02:13, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

1) Again, you're forgetting the word "SLAIN". The Necrolytes were Warlocks, and when they were slain, they were no longer alive, but they weren't undead either. No where does it state that the Necromantic energies belonged to the Necrolytes when they were alive. Gul'dan culled these energies from the SACRIFICED/SLAIN Necrolytes. In current day, Fel is created by sacrificing/draining life-force, and Gul'dan did what? Sacrificed his Necrolytes and drained their life-force, trapping it into gems. Soul gems and Soulstones are synonymous terms; if our abilities in-game are relevant to our class' lore and these gems Gul'dan created were Soulstones and used the Warlocks' Soul Trap spell then these gems were infused with Fel energies.

http://www.wowcards.info/card/ancients/en/63/Soul-Trap http://www.wowcards.info/card/worldbreaker/en/104/Demonic-Soulstone

2) The Warcraft 1 manual states Warlocks and Necromancers wielded Arcane powers. Their abilities were Arcane, despite channeling powers from the Underworld. And I already know Blizzard didn't completely flesh out what the TN was and that the realm of the "dead", Twisting Nether, and the GDB were eventually separated into 3 different realms (which still seems to overlap with each other). My point was that you should have used "realm of the dead""realm of shadows" instead of Warcraft's Underworld.

3) If Death energy isn't created the same way as Fel then why did Gul'dan have to sacrifice his Necrolytes and harness their souls and trap them into gems? Why didn't Gul'dan just harness death energy from the "realm of the dead" and place that energy into the gems he created? If Death energy is something that isn't created by sacrifice/draining life then why does Death Coil drain life? Why does Necrotic and Death Pact require sacrificing life-force? You're forgetting that Fel drains life, inherently animates bones/corpses who are exposed to the life energy drained, and empowers undead if drained into them. Fel inherently does the same thing Death energy does and that is an inescapable fact. Both Fel and Death energy involves destroying life-force/souls. You can't animate an undead minion without having life-force/a soul destroyed/drained out of a body. Period.

Fel energy involves draining/sacrifice life-force, Death energy involves draining/sacrificing life-force. Fel does the same thing as Death energy, Death energy does the same thing as Fel energy, but according to you they are different because they come from different "realms".VisionOfPerfection (talk) 05:58, 20 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) Nowhere does it say anything about Gul'dan harnessing their life-force, he took their raw necromantic energy. Life-force is not death energy.

2) It says warlocks and necromancers were the two orc "houses of the arcane arts." The human conjurers also practiced the arcane arts, but a different house/school. Arcane arts and arcane energy are different. Just like the WotLK books on the schools of arcane plainly calls them the "eldritch arts" that can "utilize multiple sources of power." The schools of arcane arts are not limited to arcane energy. Each of the individual schools is called an "art", "study", or "process" and refers to arcane the art. Necromancy is an arcane art, that doesn't mean it necessarily uses arcane energy.

3) Easy access and potency. People do it with other energies all the time. Instead of channeling it directly from the source, they take shortcuts and drain it from high-concentration alternatives.

Blizzard explicitly stated that while death magic can drain life it is a separate category from fel. Fel is created by draining life-force. Death can drain life-force, but it is channeled from the realm of the dead since its inception. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 19:59, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

1) The "soul" has been referred to as life-force before. These gems were infused with souls, so yes, these gems were infused with life-force. You're forgetting that Fel is a type of energy CREATED by DESTORYING life-force. It's a type of energy that is PRODUCED by destroying life-force. What is the result of destroying life? Death. Fel is a type of ENERGY PRODUCED by destroying life-force. If death is the product of destroying life, why is Fel not Death magic? Death magic should fall under both Fel and Void.

2) Straight from the W1 Manual: Using the ARCANE POWERS of our Warlocks and Necromancers, not even the mightiest of our foes could long stand against our increasing onslaught.

The powers they were using were indeed arcane in Warcraft. Necromancy being an "Arcane art" entails using Arcane energy which Necromancy doesn't always entail Arcane energy, so no, it wouldn't just be an Arcane art.

3) You shouldn't refer to Micky as the entire Blizzard company, he does not speak on behalf of every unique individual that works in the company, he ignores his own works and the works of others, so I have no qualms dismissing him when he states something non-sensible. And you're twisting Micky's statement to back your "argument".

Micky states, "Fel magic is its own cateogy. Not the same as Death, even though IT drains life."

Micky DIDN'T state that while Death magic CAN drain life it is a separate category from fel.

Death magic is something that is detrimental to the living, so those exposed to it would indeed have their life sapped/drained. And this "realm of the dead" you are referring to was called "Underworld" IN Warcraft, not in World of Warcraft. Necromancers were stated in the Warcraft 1 manual to wield ARCANE POWERS, these death energies are Arcane in Warcraft.

You're grasping at straws at this point. Necromantic spells do indeed involve sacrificing/draining life-force and that is all there is to it. Even if "Death energies" comes from a different realm, it is still detrimental to the living when it comes into contact, and so it does drain life-force. Are you telling me death energy doesn't inherently cause death to the living (drains life-force from the living even though it's "death" energy)? And what the hell does sacrificing/draining life-force giving easy access to Necromantic energies even mean? Are these Necromantic energies you're referring to "souls/spirits"? Not every single soul/spirit goes straight to the realm of the "dead", some souls are trapped in the realm of the "living", and the spirits of Fel Orcs have been described as Fel spirits.

If the Orc Warlocks Gul'dan sacrificed had Fel spirits or just Fel energies inside them, please explain how these gems were not infused with Fel energies.

Even if Death magic comes from the realm of the dead that you keep on yapping about, Fel and Death magic still involves draining/sacrificing life, does the same thing, and manifests the same way.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 05:20, 22 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) Where is soul referred to as life-force? Because there are multiple instances of them being different things, where people drain them separately.

2) Arcane powers doesn't mean arcane energy... powers means ability or capability to act. Even with warlocks and necromancers in WC1, they were referred to as arcane arts, the same as with conjurers. Knowledge of the arcane arts allows the person to bend the various energies to their will. Warlocks and necromancers bent death energies from the underworld, conjurers bent the energies of nature.

3) You're getting things mixed up again. Fel is created by destroying life. Death energy is not created this way, it's just something it can do when it comes into contact with something alive. And I keep yapping on about it coming from a different realm because it has been consistently described as such throughout the entire history of the franchise. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 18:17, 23 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) http://wowpedia.org/Soul
 * http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=170887/offer-soul


 * 2) First of all, the term death magic/energy did not exist in W1 or W3. Secondly, sometimes the word "power" refers to energy/magic. For example, "Antonidas learned that the orcs had been under the crippling influence of DEMONIC POWER (OR WARLOCK MAGICS) for generations. The W2 manual's Death Coil description states Death Knights channel the NECROMANTIC POWERS of the underworld. I suppose these Necromantic powers doesn't mean Necromantic energies.


 * The Arcane arts involves using Arcane magic and doesn't necessarily mean the Arcane arts involve using Arcane magic to bend other energies; no where does it state that Death magic/energy ISN'T Arcane. If Death magic/energy can only exist in the realm of the dead then Gul'dan wouldn't be able to cull Necromantic energies from his Necrolytes, period.


 * 3) You're getting mixed up again, I've never been mixed up. You're confusing Warcraft's "Underworld" for World of Warcraft's Realm of the Dead, they are not the same thing. Blizzard didn't separate the Realm of the Dead from the Twisting Nether in Warcraft. Please provide CURRENT examples (not from Warcraft) of death magic/energy being consistently described as coming from a different realm, if you can even find one.


 * Death comes from the realm of the living, genius. You cannot experience death without having lived first. So clearly death energies are tied to the realm of the living. Fel is created by destroying life energy,drains life from the living, and inherently raises undead, so clearly it is tied to the "realm of the dead" VisionOfPerfection (talk) 23:35, 23 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) Draining someone's soul is different from draining someone's life. And people harvest souls of the dead... when they have no life-force. And people can exist as souls, also when they have no life-force.

2) It did exist. It was called necromantic magiks/powers, shadow, darkness, blackness, and death. This energy came from the realm of the dead. Underworld, Hades, Hel, etc. are synonyms for "realm of the dead." The Twisting Nether is hasn't been a realm for dead souls since WC2.


 * WC1
 * "Through ceremonies performed at their Temples, they learn to warp the essence of shadow to use for their advantage."
 * "By commanding the powers of darkness and death, tendrils of blackness stretch across the land to envelop the unwary and careless."
 * "When an Orc dies, his soul descends into Hades for judgment, and his essence is divided into good and evil. The Orcish Necrolytes have learned to siphon the black energies from this plane and use it for their own purposes."
 * "The Necrolytes have close ties to the dark forces of Hell, and in consequence study the forbidden arts of the dead. They have gained the ability to bind the bodies of the dead to this domain,"
 * "The effects of this spell are limited in size, for too much knowledge of the confines of shadow has been known to forever trap the caster within the realm of darkness."


 * WC2
 * "Touch of Darkness: By enveloping their truncheons with the dark essence of Hel..."
 * "By channeling the necromantic powers of the underworld through his ghoulish form..."
 * "Whirlwind: This focusing of the winds of the underworld..."


 * WC3
 * "Death knights can call upon the forces of darkness at will, causing bolts of death to issue from their hands."


 * WoW
 * Realm of shadows is referred to as "the world of the dead."
 * Lady Alistra summons undead from the realm of shadows.
 * Acherus Deathchargers are summoned from the realm of shadows.
 * The dark magic that animates undead prevents their souls from properly joining their bodies.
 * Raise Ally pours dark energy into a corpse to bring the soul from the spirit realm, leaving them Void-Touched.
 * Nhallish is a spirit "born of pure darkness" that feeds on souls.
 * Ner'zhul uses the power of the Void for his necromantic arts, allowing him to "summon an army of shadow and death."

It's all the same necromantic/darkness/dark/blackness/black/death/shadow energy, coming from the realm of the dead. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 04:22, 24 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) The soul is a type of life-force, just like how blood is a type of life-force that is different from what Warlocks drain with the Drain Life spell, and I have already provided two examples calling the soul "life-force", whereas you have no examples/sources proving that the "soul" ISN'T a type of life-force.


 * 2) I have all the manuals on PDF and can search for the information I need quickly without having to read the entire manual, the term death/necromantic magic did not exist in Warcraft 1. The terms blackness, darkness, and shadow are not the same words as death. Black magic and dark magic can refer to other types of magic that are considered "evil" or "forbidden", not just shadow magic, and the term "Underworld", "Hel", and "Hades" are all terms used WHEN WORLD OF WARCRAFT'S REALM OF SHADOWS and WORLD OF WARCRAFT'S TWISTING NETHER WERE NOT SEPARATED. You should stop using Warcraft's Underworld to prove anything, you're getting confused, forgetting that the terms "Underworld", "Hades", and "Hel" are all used in Warcraft when the Twisting Nether and World of Warcraft's Realm of the Dead were not separated.


 * 3) The dark magic that animates undead prevents their souls from properly joining their bodies.
 * Raise Ally pours dark energy into a corpse to bring the soul from the spirit realm, leaving them Void-Touched.
 * Nhallish is a spirit "born of pure darkness" that feeds on souls.
 * Ner'zhul uses the power of the Void for his necromantic arts, allowing him to "summon an army of shadow and death."


 * ^All of this involves the Void. So are you stating Void is Death magic? Warlocks wield Void magic in addition to Fel magic and since Necromancy the "art" can be attained through different energies and Fel inherently does the same thing as Death magic, ALL Warlocks use Necromancy ("the art"), and Warlocks do raise undead, but just like Necromancers, they have to "train to know how to do it".


 * http://www.wowcards.info/card/naxxramas-raid/en/20/Heigan-the-Unclean


 * "Observe, Heigan the Unclean. The mastermind behind the plague cauldrons that turned the wilderness of Azeroth into the Plaguelands. It is said that Heigan has rigged the very walls and floors of Naxxramas itself with a vast array of traps, which he can trigger at will."


 * http://wod.wowhead.com/npc=44443#abilities


 * "Necromantic magic has many functions beyond simply raising the dead. Masters of this tainted field of magic can conjure festering diseases".


 * ^Are you telling me Death magic can create festering diseases?


 * ^As we all know, these "festering diseases" are demonic unless these "festering diseases" aren't related to the Plague of Undeath, so clearly Necromantic magic can fall under Fel and Void.


 * I have come to the conclusion that while characters who conjure festering diseases and spread the plague (like Heigan the Unclean) are called Necromancers, Warlocks who conjure festering diseases and spread the plague are not called Necromancers. VisionOfPerfection (talk) 16:17, 24 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) You're ignoring the fact that things with literally no life-force still have souls. If a soul is in a living body it has life-force. Removing the soul from the body makes the life-force leak out of the body. The souls of the dead have no life-force, they're dead.

2) Yes... and then Blizzard split the Twisting Nether to have nothing to do with the realm of the dead/shadows—which is the renamed underworld/Hades/Hel/etc. Blizzard didn't abolish this realm from the lore, they just renamed it and separated it from the Twisting Nether and Great Dark. It wasn't "black magic" or "dark magic" as euphemism for forbidden magic, it literally says they were channeling this stuff from the realm of the dead, just like the "essence of shadow", "dark forces" of the realm of the dead, "dark essence" of the realm of the dead, "necromantic powers" of the realm of the dead. It's dark magic/energies as opposite to Light magic. And it is established in the WoW Magazine that the orc necrolytes were using shadow magic.

3) You act like every magical disease is the same as Plague of Undeath... like there is only one way to make a festering disease. BTW, Plague of Undeath was unique and specially designed. Even non-magical diseases can cause festering. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 01:36, 25 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) I've presented my sources, I'm still waiting for your sources proving the soul ISN'T a type of life-force. You're ignoring the fact that the soul is a type of life-force and that souls (a type of life-force) attached to corpses animates the corpses as undead. Those who are undead still have life-force.


 * 2) You stated yourself, Arcane power doesn't mean Arcane energies, so when the W2 manual states Death Knights channeled Necromantic powers of the Underworld, they weren't channeling Necromantic energies because power means ability or capability to act.#getwrecked


 * The Twisting Nether is also described as a "Hellish" place and Shadow magic/energy does exists in the Twisting Nether, so the Necrolytes may have in fact been drawing their powers from the Shadow energies present in the Twisting Nether. Stop acting like death/shadow energies can only exist in the "realm of the dead".


 * 3) I don't act like every magical disease is the same as the Plague of Undeath. The Plague of Undeath was indeed Fel, and the book in Dalaran states Necromantic magic can be used to conjure festering diseases, which is why I stated these festering diseases are demonic UNLESS they aren't related to the Plague of Undeath.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 19:52, 25 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) Tell me more about how dead things have life-force. Not talking about undead here, actual spirits of the dead separated from bodies or in the afterlife. Souls obviously have energy of their own that can be harnessed, but it is not life-force since they are not alive. A soul in a body has life-force because it is in a living body, a soul by itself does not. When you remove the soul from the body, the life-force drains out of the body, not the soul. This is shown in Rise of the Lich King. I like how you removed the spell link that also illustrates this. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=117337/soul-sever

2) Literally says "dark essence" of that other realm and that they "discharge this energy." And also, this is in WC2 when Blizzard first introduced the concept of arcane energy, whereas before it was just an art/house and the energies they used were "essence of shadow", "dark forces", etc. from the realm of the dead. Only in WC2 was the Twisting Nether a place for spirits of the dead; it was later separated from the realm of the dead into something else entirely. The Well of Eternity's arcane energy was a fount of life, that nurtured and empowered life to grow.

"Hellish" =/= "hell". Blackrock Caverns was described as a "hellish cavern", doesn't mean it is actually in hell or related to the realm of the dead. Dimensius only got arcane energies from the Twisting Nether. He opened portals to the Void to get dark energies. If these shadow energies were in the Twisting Nether, opening portals to the Void would have been completely unnecessary. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 20:36, 25 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1a) Those who have died still have blood in their bodies unless those bodies decompose genius. Blood is a type of life-force, and even if a person decomposes, their body and blood becomes one with the earth.


 * 1b) Banshees and Ghosts are considered Undead, and they are usually separated from their bodies. The soul is a type of life-force that doesn't always go to the "realm of the shadows"/"realm of the dead", ex: spirits/souls of the Orcs' Ancestors residing in the Twisting Nether, and the reason why I removed the spell link is because I presented another one that refers to the soul as life-force. Both spell links I provided conflicts, however, it makes sense that the soul is a type of life-force.


 * 2) You're still using WARCRAFT'S Underworld where demons resided and where Warlocks drew their fire from. Spirits/Souls exist in the "realm of the living", not only "the realm of the dead", and if there is a "Hell" in World of Warcraft it can be safe to assume there is a "Heaven" where souls can go to. This "realm of the dead" you are referring to, does you believe it also encompass where "good" souls go to? Because it seems like this "realm of the dead" of yours is only a place where shadow/death magic exist. Spirits don't just automatically go "to the realm of the shadows" or "realm of the light" either, some spirits/souls are trapped/cursed to exist in the realm of the living to never experience peace, ex: The Fel Spirits in Outland.


 * 3a) The Void and the Twisting Nether are both places that can be considered "Hell", and souls still reside in the Twisting Nether, just like the "realm of the dead".


 * 3b) It is very apparent that you're forgetting that Draenor is in the Twisting Nether and there are Naaru who have "fell" and entered a Void State, bleeding Void energies, when the Draenei's vessel crashed on Draenor. Clearly Void energies existed in the Twisting Nether.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 22:16, 25 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) Yes... and that life-force is separate from the soul. Souls have energy, but it is not life-force.

2) And then Blizzard moved the demons' home realm to be the Twisting Nether and separated out the realm of the dead. There is only the one "realm of the dead". Other realms (Light, Emerald Dream, just wandering around, etc.) where spirits go are not referred to as such. I never said that all souls automatically go to the realm of the dead. But this realm of the dead is the one where dark/shadow/death energies are channeled from.

3) None of that has anything to do with the Twisting Nether. The void energies surrounding those naaru is because of the naaru. K'ure became a void vortex that sucked in souls. Void creatures and energies only cross over into Outland when the barrier between the Twisting Nether and the Void has been torn or they are summoned. Void energy is not part of the Twisting Nether. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 22:28, 25 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) The soul is a type of life-force, I'm still waiting for a source proving the soul isn't a type of life-force with common sense.


 * 2) Blizzard moving the demons' home realm to be the Twisting Nether and separating it from the "realm of the dead" is irrelevant because YOU KEEP ON BRINGING WARCRAFT'S UNDERWORLD UP, just don't even mention Warcraft's Underworld and use World of Warcraft's "realm of the dead/shadows". And according to the book in Dalaran, Necromancy is a school of arcane MAGIC. Arcane energy exists in the Twisting Nether and if Necromantic magic is Arcane magic like the book in Dalaran states then Necromantic energies can be drawn from the Twisting Nether. Arcane magic/energy is not inherently Necromantic, ERGO, if Necromantic magic/energy is Arcane then Arcane magic/energy must be created into Necromantic magic because Arcane energy isn't inherently Necromantic. The very title of the book in Dalaran states Necromancy is a School of Arcane magic, not an Arcane art. Are you telling me the book in Dalaran is wrong and Necromantic magic isn't Arcane and can't be drawn from the Twisting Nether?


 * http://wowpedia.org/The_Schools_of_Arcane_Magic_-_Necromancy


 * 3) Did you already forget that there is a bridge connecting the "realm of the dead" and "realm of the living"? These two realms are connected so clearly energies from the realm of the living have leaked over into the realm of the dead and vice-versa. Is the Twisting Nether in the realm of the living? If it is then it's connected to the "realm of the dead". Is the Twisting Nether in the realm of the dead? If it is then it's connected to the realm of the living. Perhaps there are certain locations in Outland where parts of the "realm of the dead" manifests. And Void creatures and Void energies crossing over to the realm of the living still doesn't change the fact that Void energies still exist in the realm of the living.


 * And what does Necrotic Pact and Death Pact have to do with the Void? They both involve sacrificing life force. Does sacrificing life-force create some portal/door to the Void, giving access to Necromantic enegies? Perhaps Fel is connected to the Void in some mysterious way.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 22:54, 25 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) I already gave you examples. When souls are removed from bodies, the life-force remains within the body and leaks out of the body; it doesn't go with the soul. In WC2 it is even explicitly stated that it's the body that generates "vital energy". The soul and life-force are different things. Body and soul are not interchangeable.

2/3) Because the underworld is the same thing as the realm of the dead; that's literally what the underworld is. The realms are separate, but they can be bridged. There had to be a tear in the fabric of reality for the Void to spill into the Twisting Nether without someone creating/harnessing a vortex or channeling the energy.

You keep referencing that in-game book... The entire context of that series is talking about arcane as an ART. Necromancy is an arcane ART. The arcane ARTS can "utilize multiple sources of power." That series is not about arcane energy. The one on necromancy refers to it as a STUDY that utilizes "necromantic magic", harnesses the shadows, or uses the power of death. --01:09, 26 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) You are not giving me sources stating souls aren't a type of life-force, you're giving me headcanon. No where does it state in the W2 manual that the soul isn't a type of life force, and you're forgetting again and again, there is more than one type of life-force, ex: Blood is a type of life-force,


 * http://www.wowcards.info/card/throne/en/233/Bottled-Life


 * ...^^^and so is the Green stuff Warlocks drain^^^


 * http://www.wowcards.info/card/twilight/en/7/Soul-Eater-Morgania
 * http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=136506/spirit-twisting


 * http://www.wowhead.com/quest=13163/the-rider-of-blood
 * http://www.wowhead.com/npc=31159#abilities


 * 2/3) You're using Warcraft's Underworld because something is wrong with your state of mind, clearly. WARCRAFT'S Underworld is not the same as WORLD OF WARCRAFT'S realm of shadows because Warcraft's Underworld is where demons reside and where Warlocks draw their fire from. Yes, "Underworld" is synonymous for "Realm of the Dead" but WARCRAFT'S Twisting Nether and the Realm of the Dead were not separated IN WARCRAFT, they were the same. And the terms hell, underworld, hades are all terms used to describe where demons reside as well and undead do exist in the Twisting Nether. The Twisting Nether and the "Realm of the Shadows" were retcon from being the same place to being two different places, that's why you should use World of Warcraft's realm of shadows and not Warcraft's Underworld.


 * And once again, you're wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. The realms are always bridged, they are always connected. When a person dies, their soul can be trapped, becoming stuck between the realm of the living and the realm of the dead, they are stuck at the bridge connecting the two realms.


 * http://www.wowhead.com/quest=10050/unyielding-souls


 * ^See how those souls are caught between the realm of the living and the realm of dead? Those souls are caught at the bridge connecting those two realms. Those souls are not really living, but neither are they really dead. If the realm of the living and the realm of the dead are always separate and someone has to cause a tear in the fabric of reality to create a connection between the realm of the living and the realm of the dead then souls would be trapped in the world of the living and not at the bridge unless someone creates a connection between the realm of the living and the realm of the dead for the souls. The realm of the living and the realm of the dead are always connected and souls don't need people to exploit reality to create a door to the realm of the dead for them.


 * 4) Did I point out how the very title of that book in Dalaran calls Necromancy a school of Arcane MAGIC, and not an Arcane art or am I just totally high?


 * Necromancy is an art and Necromantic magic would be magic used for Necromancy.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 02:30, 26 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) WC2 says that "vital energy" is generated by the body, that literally means life energy/force. Life energy is not generated by the soul. However, a living body needs a soul in order to generate life energy and taking the soul out of the body causes the body to leak life energy. And you can look at the various priest abilities. Power Word: Shield draws upon the power of the soul and leaves the life energy alone. Body and Soul can even make abilities powered by soul energy increase movement speed similar to Unholy Frenzy (which increases life energy generation), with Body and Soul. Presumably putting soul energy into the body so it generates more life energy. Priests can also strengthen souls so that magic powered by soul energy isn't as taxing. None of these things draw upon the life energy of the person.

Bottled life doesn't mean anything; it doesn't describe anything about what the potion actually is. Each of the rest refers to life essence. Yes, the soul is a person's essence.

2/3) ...and then Blizzard created an entirely new realm to be the home of the demons and called it the Twisting Nether. Demons don't come from the underworld or hell anymore. And warlock magic was still demon-based, which now come from the Twisting Nether. The realm of the dead is still the realm of the dead.

In Netherstorm, it took the explosion of Manaforge Ultris to tear the fabric of reality for the Void to spill into the Nether. Ner'zhul also had to tear the fabric of reality for spirits to come out of the Void. K'ure had a void vortex inside himself that sucked in souls and was harnessed to bring out void creatures. Voidcaller lanterns bridge the realm of the dead with the realm of the living. They are separate except for the specific places where they are bridged, the barrier is torn, or people just summon them out.

Just because souls can travel to the realm of the dead doesn't mean the realms are always bridged. If that were the case, then shit would be pouring out of there all the time. It's more like souls have the ability to make a one-way trip/opening INTO the realm of the dead, and this process can be interrupted.

4) Each of the books is a category of the arcane arts... "We the learned have found that it is easiest to divide the eldritch arts into eight different categories in order to further understand the fundamentals of magic itself. Each of these categories is known as a school of magic." You're getting confused because Blizzard sometimes uses "magic" to refer to the art and sometimes to refer to the energy. But this series makes a clear distinction between the categories/schools of arcane magic (art) and the sources of power (energy): "All schools of magic can be combined to create formidable spells that utilize multiple sources of power." Necromancy is a category of the arcane arts. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 19:12, 26 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) I don't know how many times I have to state this until the message clicks. You're forgetting there is more than one type of life-force. Fel magic is not the same as Blood magic, although they are similar. The Green stuff Warlocks drain is a type of life-essence, and so is blood.


 * I've already provided an ample amount of examples calling soul life-force, you're just grasping at straws. Just because some spell descriptions don't refer to the soul as life-force doesn't mean it isn't.


 * Forgetting what the Worgen Warlock featured on this TCG Card is called?


 * http://www.wowcards.info/card/twilight/en/7/Soul-Eater-Morgania


 * 2/3) I know Blizzard separated the Twisting Nether from the realm of shadows IN WORLD OF WARCRAFT, but NOT IN WARCRAFT, but do you know that? You keep on bringing up WARCRAFT'S (key word to focus on: Warcraft's) Underworld and treating it as the same as World of Warcraft's (key words to focus on: World of Warcraft's) realm of the shadows WHEN THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Demons not coming from World of Warcraft's realm of shadows is irrelevant to the fact that Demons came from World of Warcraft's Hell/Underworld/Hades IN WARCRAFT.


 * And once again you are ignoring the cold hard fact that the terms Underworld, Hades, and Hell are all terms used to describe where demons come from and that demons reside in the Twisting Nether and that there are also undead there. As I have reiterated many times, you should stop using Warcraft's Underworld and just use the term Realm of Shadows.


 * The realm of the living and the realm of the dead are always bridged, you're just disregarding common sense. Portals are doors/doorways. The realm of the living is a room. The realm of the dead is a room. They are across from each other but a hallway is connecting the two. When someone dies, a portal opens, allowing the soul to enter the portal and cross the bridge. When the portals are open, energies can seep through. Edit: After I re-read this, I was reminded of what my good ol' friend Gara'jal the Spiritbinder stated, "Death be a doorway, an' time a window". People die in the REALM OF THE LIVING and the portal/door to the bridge connecting the realm of the living and the realm of the dead opens.


 * 4a) I'm not the confused one here, you are, ...confusing Warcraft's Underworld for World of Warcraft's Realm of the Shadows.


 * 4b) Forgetting how Necromancy is an art which can be attained through "different types of magic/energies" now are we? Necromantic magic is the magic used for Necromancy. Blizzard using "the art" to refer to "the magic" and using "the magic" to refer to "the art" involves forcing a magic type to an art, and so calling Necromancy a School of Arcane magic is stupid. How do we know Meryl used only Arcane magic to transition into undeath and uses only Arcane magic to sustain himself? If Necromantic magic isn't Arcane and Meryl used only Arcane magic then Meryl wasn't using Necromancy to transition into undeath and sustain himself, he must have been using Arcane magic to bend Void or Fel energies to achieve Necromancy. Let's pretend Necromantic magic is not Arcane magic but Necromancy is an Arcane art which involves Mages using Arcane magic to bend Void or Fel energies to achieve Necromancy (just like how Mages can use Arcane magic to bend Elemental energies and achieve the same effects Shamans can achieve but aren't Shamans), a Mage who uses Arcane magic/energy to bend Void or Fel energies to achieve Necromancy is not a Necromancer as much as a Mage who uses Arcane magic to bend Elemental energies is not a Shaman. Necromancy isn't an Arcane art and Necromancer isn't a Mage sub-class. Necromancy isn't the art of using Arcane magic to bend shadow and fel energies to achieve Necromancy, and Necromantic magic isn't Arcane so how is Necromancy an Arcane school?....I have come to the inescapable conclusion that Necromancy cannot be attained through Arcane magic/energy without bending Fel or Void energies. The reason why I brought that book up again is because I wanted to see if you agree that the book in Dalaran is flawed.


 * The problem is, Fel magic and Shadow magic came from the same place in Warcraft and Fel still does the same thing as Shadow magic.


 * Fel is created by sacrificing/destroying life, and so it is something that would come from the "realm of shadows"/"realm of the dead" or at least it's connected to it, which would explain why Gul'dan was able to cull Necromantic energies from his sacrificed Necrolytes or why Necromantic spells involve sacrificing/draining life, sacrificing/destroying life allows easier access to Necromantic energies by opening the portal/door for those energies to seep through. My guess would be that these Necromantic energies Gul'dan culled were retcon'ed into Fel energies, just how the Underworld was retcon'ed into two separate places. This would also explain why Sean Copeland believes Gul'dan didn't use Necromantic magic to create DK's...Why would Sean Copeland state Fel magic and Necromancy are two separate schools of magic in response to the question asking if Gul'dan was a Warlock or a Necromancer as if Gul'dan didn't wield/pursue both types? He either believes Gul'dan didn't create DK's or forgot *rolls eyes*


 * If Sean Copeland knew that Necromancy is an art and Fel magic can raise undead (inherently too) then he wouldn't have stated Fel magic and Necromancy are "two separate schools of magic". It is clear that Sean Copeland isn't aware of Gul'dan creating DK's, believing Gul'dan was limited to Fel magic and so are all Warlocks, and that Soulstones are demonic and can't raise undead....which explains why he placed "How do Soulstones work" on the list, as if Gul'dan creating Soulstones to raise undead is irrelevant and completely ignorable.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 01:56, 27 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) Life energy is life energy, but it can be manipulated differently into different forms. It is explicitly generated by the body, which is different from the soul. The soul can exist without the body. You're mixing up essence with energy. The soul is the essence of a person, it contains their consciousness. The body acts as a living container for the soul and generates life energy when alive. The soul doesn't generate any life energy.

2/3) Because Blizzard retconned the demon realm to be the Twisting Nether and be different from the realm of the dead. It's a retcon, everything about demons coming from there is no longer valid. Demons don't come from the realm of the dead or any of its synonyms. But the realm of the dead is still the realm of the dead.

The fabric of reality literally has to be torn for things to come out. You say they're always bridged then go on to explain how they aren't... When the bridge/door or whatever you want to call it isn't open, the realms aren't bridged.

4) Not forgetting anything about how necromancy can be attained through different energies. There is just an actual "necromantic energy"/dark/shadow/death energy that comes from the realm of the dead, which people channel from there.

Necromancy is literally a category of arcane arts. It is explicitly stated that each of the "schools of arcane magic" is a category of the arcane arts that can employ different sources of power. They aren't talking about it being exclusively about arcane energy. This couldn't be any more clear.

You're getting hung up on the warlock energies being drawn from the realm of the dead in old stuff. This was retconned. Fel isn't channeled from some other realm. It is created in the living realm by burning life energy. Demons have it within them in the Twisting Nether, but even their fel energy comes from the living realm since they come here to consume magic and life. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 22:33, 28 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) Do you think souls don't come with the body and exist floating around, waiting to possess soulless babies when they're born? Seems like you do. The soul has been called life force/essence and life energy can exist and "generate" without the body in WoW, you should be smart enough to know that.


 * 2/3) Yes, I know Blizzard retconned the demon realm to be the Twisting Nether and separated it from the realm of the dead, as stated many times, but the term Underworld can still be applied to where demons reside and Warcraft is not World of Warcraft, World of Warcraft is a continuation of Warcraft, and picks up where we left off, but you were originally treating Warcraft's Underworld as World of Warcraft's realm of shadows as if they were always the same, that's why you should just state "realm of shadows"


 * Are you already forgetting how the realm of the living is a room and the realm of the dead is a room and that they are across from each other but are connected by the hallway? The realm of the living's door is still connected to the hallway, the realm of the dead's door is still connected to the hallway. Just because the door to the bridge isn't always open doesn't mean the rooms aren't still connected by the hallway when the door is closed.


 * When someone dies, the portal/door to the bridge that connects the realm of the living and the realm of the dead opens.


 * 4) :::Necromancy is not an Arcane art. The Arcane arts can employ using Necromantic magic/energy, but that does not mean Necromancy is an Arcane art.


 * Shamanism is not an Arcane art. The Arcane arts can employ using Elemental magic/energy, but that does not mean Shamanism is an Arcane art.


 * You stated yourself Necromantic magic/energy isn't Arcane, so why are you stating Necromancy is an Arcane art? Calling Necromancy an Arcane art involves forcing a magic type to an art, but as we all know, Necromancy is an art that can be attained through "different energies".


 * Shamanism is not the art of using Arcane magic/energy to bend Elemental magic/energy.


 * Necromancy is not the art of using Arcane magic to bend Necromantic/Death magic/energy. You stated yourself Necromantic/Death magic isn't Arcane magic, so Arcane magic must be bending Necromantic/Death magic/energy.


 * You believe life and death are not connected what-so-ever, in fiction or in real life, and that people NEED to create a portal/door (tear a fabric in reality) to connect the realm of the living and the realm of the dead, but you're forgetting that death is THE door/portal and that death is a natural part of life. People dying doesn't cause a tear in the fabric of reality, or does it? Either way, death is from the realm of the living.


 * Death energies come from the realm of the living, use your common sense, you cannot die without living first. Or do you think you can die without living? Do you think life and death are not connected? I think you do.


 * Are you already forgetting how the door to the bridge connecting the realm of the living and the realm of the dead opens when you destroy life? Fel comes from destroying life and death comes from the realm of the living.


 * Are you forgetting how Gul'dan culled Necromantic energies from the sacrificed Necrolytes? Are you telling me there was some portal (tear in the fabric of reality) inside the Necrolytes that can be accessed by destroying/sacrificing life? Thanks for agreeing with me.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 05:49, 29 October 2014 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection