Template talk:Infobox Horde/Archive01

Black dragons
Add Black Drakes and Black dragon to the race list, the dragonmaw have enslaved some.--Ashbear160 (talk) 23:54, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No, they can have a note under the dragonmaw clan section, but they're not a Horde race. 04:02, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Same applies to the kobolds and wyverns yet they are on the list, they are a horde slave race.--Ashbear160 (talk) 11:54, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Wyverns are not slaves, they mutually work together... and if you want me to remove Kobolds I will then, I wasn't all that into having them on the list as is. 16:45, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * If you gunna remove Kobolds doesn't that take out Low Common aswell, what other horde races speak Low Common ?? --ArbiterX122591 (talk) 20:21, 91 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ogres. 02:02, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Wait a second, I did the quest and the kobolds were beaten until they swore loyalty to the Horde, though they are considered slaves they are more willing slaves if you know what I mean. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.

Lady Liadrin
Lady Liadrin is as a Horde leader as Tirion is an Alliance one.
 * Plz use sigs and make new section when appropriate, i don't agree Tirion fused the silver hand and made it into the argent crusade a neutral faction, the blood knights still exist as a faction although allied with Sha'tar and renouced ties with the prince, they didn't renounce their ties with the nation of Quel'Thalas and continue to teach blood knights in the horde.--Ashbear160 (talk) 15:03, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * She fits the bill of secondary leader perfectly. She leads the Horde's primary paladin sect, and has ties elsewhere too like Hamuul and Malfurion; albeit slightly weaker since the SSO is meaningless now. Unlike Tirion, who was, you know... exiled from the Alliance. Grissom (talk) 15:09, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I really don't agree. Those who have exiled Tirion (Daelin, Arthas, Teranas and Antonidas) are all dead and the human kingdoms they represented no belong to the Alliance (excepted Kul'Tiras). For instance it's not because the Alliance tried to execute the blood elves (high elves at this moment, racially speaking) that there's no high elves part of the modern Alliance today.

File:LadyLiadrin.jpg Furthermore, as you can see on this screenshot, Liadrin is wearing the Shattered Sun Offensive's tabard, a neutral organization. She was never involved in any Horde global events so I don't think that's relevent to put her in the Horde secondary leaders list. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.
 * You're grasping at straws; I don't quite see where this is coming from and your argument is frankly incomparable. Here's the thing - Lady Liadrin leads the Blood Knights. The Blood Knights are a prominent Horde organization with a lot of exposure. If Liadrin was somehow deposed of her rank as Blood Knight Matriarch, then sure, she would have no ties to the Horde. But she hasn't been. She still leads this Horde organization as its supreme leader. That's why she's on the secondary leaders list.


 * And sign your posts. Four "~"s. Grissom (talk) 18:16, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Forsaken zombies not ghouls
The Forsaken have one zombie Algernon, they don't have ghouls. User:Ultimatex (talk) 08:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Very well, ghouls removed, Zombies and Wraiths added. 01:37, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * We really don't know for sure. She had all of the Scourge in her arsenal in Wracraft III but that was likely game mechanics. Also if you don't mind my asking were are forsaken Wraiths? [[Image:IconSmall ForestTroll Male.gif|16px]][[Image:IconSmall IceTroll Male.gif|16px]] (talk contribs)[[Image:IconSmall SandTroll Male.gif|16px]][[Image:IconSmall DarkTroll Male.gif|16px]] 20:47, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * At least one I know of is one of the bankers in Undercity, Ophelia Montague. 01:25, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I actually just discovered a forsaken plague eruptor, an Unstable Assistant in the Twilight Highlands. Is he worth adding to the list? [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 00:56, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but only because this has long since passed ridiculous. If you want to help save sanity from oblivion, then probably no.-- 01:02, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Add it, the more complete it is the better.--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:29, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say no... he's an unstable experiment, not a member of the Horde. 03:10, 8 November 2011 (UTC)\
 * ...That actually makes sense [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]] (talk contribs) 03:37, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wait a second, wouldn't that mean abominations are just successful "experiments" from the Royal Apothecary Society? If the abominations get in why doesn't Calder Gray get credit for his little creations?Grazzbek (talk) 03:51, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Garrosh's magnataur and proto-drake
"Having brought down a number of captive magnataur and proto-drakes from Northrend that he domesticated by holding their young hostage, Garrosh plans to see his dreams of expansion realized."

Should we list these two in the info-box? (talk contribs) 19:54, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Not until we actually see it happen. 23:33, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Nah it's very brief and used momentarily so they ar not part of the current members altrough we could probably add a note to former members section, since i don't have the book i'll leave that note to someone esle.--Ashbear160 (talk) 00:01, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say former members considering I read the book and there doesn't seem anything saying Garrosh doesn't have them anymore and he still has the young. Grazzbek (talk) 03:50, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Boss Mida
I'm thinking she should be under secondary leaders. She seems to lead the Goblins in Orgrimmar, if not the whole Cartel, in Gallywix's absence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by. 13:57, 12 November 2011


 * Please sign your posts. And I can see what you mean but I think she's only running the slums. Running a town doesn't really justify a spot on secondary leaders. If we had anything of her saying "Im taking care of the cartel while Gallywix is out" then I would have to say yes. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 17:22, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Code update request
Change this line: Tae'thelan Bloodwatcher

"|Small" is the default value and doesn't need to be written.--Lon-ami (talk) 16:49, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Mag'har orcs, Dragonmaw orcs, and Ice trolls.
I was wondering why Mag'har and Dragonmaw orcs are not on the race list, I know they may not be a seperate race but they are classified as differant races in other articles so I'm just pointing out, also I found out the Horde has some Ice Trolls in Alterac Valley such as the stable master.--Grazzbek (talk) January 7 2012
 * Sigh. Im really against even Ice Trolls even as just a note I think that the SINGLE NPC is just a Darkspear. Dragonmaw orcs are orcs no evidence they aren't and they dont even have a proper racial name. Mag'har are the only possible exception. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.
 * I'm just judging from what race the NPC says it is, I believe Coobra edits the infoboxes I got the information from. And the fact that Dragonmaw orcs are "just orcs" as you so think, they are not of the average Tainted Orc skin pigment and that would mean all the species of trolls are "Just trolls" from what your saying. It also seems your opinion on the Ice troll thing as your trying to just make sure they aren't a part of it since that quote you made "I'm really against even ice trolls." notes bias. I take what I see, It says she's an Ice troll and just because you think it is just a Darkspear whom are Jungle Trolls, doesn't mean your right. You gotta think these through, if Blizzard backs you up then hey your right but I also got a couple more reasons to back me up seeing as Single NPCs are counted such as the Wraiths and Zombies. (Though there might be two zombies if you count Boyle.)Grazzbek (talk) 03:48, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Even if they were somewhat of a subrace. You need to keep in mind. They are still orcs and we have orcs listed. Dragonmaw however are NEVER called a subrace, they show no differences to orcs other than skin color. Let me give you a real world example. African Males and Asian Males may have different skin colors, but they are still humans. As for Ice Trolls. I love trolls. If I could have every troll unite into one faction and take over the bloody world I would love that. But if the Frostwolves had any Ice Trolls don't you think it would be mentioned? At all? Zombies and Wraiths are reasonable to believe in an undead faction. Ice Trolls in an orcish clan however are not. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]   (talk contribs) 06:05, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Where your coming from does make sense. I was surprised yet happy when I saw the Frostwolf Stable Master which seems to be an Ice Troll, I am just taking from what I saw. But if you take it as the fact that would Jungle Trolls really be found in Alterac, it supports the fact that the stable master is an Ice Troll because I have seen Jungle Trolls in forest and jungles, not tundra. Grazzbek (talk) 14:37, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Female trolls have always been harder to judge, since all the males received model updates over the years (except jungle trolls), but you'll usually not see a jungle troll with white hair, that tends to be an ice troll trait. Generally more than 1 known creature type is needed to be added as a Horde race however, not including the forsaken races of course. 04:16, 9 January 2012 (UTC)


 * We wouldn't have an issue if this NPC was male. Because if it was a jungle troll it would just use the same icey skin. But if it was a Ice Troll it's model would have been updated. I just don't feel that, this lone female ice troll decided to assist the horde as a stable master. All other Ice Trolls were hostile to the Horde. With Ice Trolls actually in Alterac then it's believable a faction might betray them for the Horde. But the problem comes to it's only a single NPC and we dont see her being inducted into the Horde. No lore to if she joined the Horde. Or even if she is an Ice Troll at all. I feel like there needs to be a line. A line we went past with when we added Chaos Orcs. Because it's the same thing really. An NPC that could be a skinning error blown into an idea an entire race joined the Horde. Chaos orcs atleast make sense. They were Warsong Orcs. Ice Trolls have never been involved in the Horde. No communication between orcs and Ice Trolls has ever come about. And if she was an Ice Troll and she was confirmed in the Horde. If she was just that single one exception. I would still say no because 1 special case doesn't justify as Horde Members. Like the Quilboar in that Barrens camp from Vanilla. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 04:19, 9 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Bloody Hell Coobra you always get there before me. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 04:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I quickly slither in to make my strike and vanish into the night. 04:29, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's just leave it be that it is assumed Ice Troll but not sure. It's one NPC so moving that aside we are down to the Mag'har orcs. They are quite likely a seperate race of orc. And we're not sure if those Chaos orcs are Warsong Orcs. But that's another topic because Blizzard just has to randomly throw in these things. But again Mag'har. Could they be considered a speerate race then the normal orc race because unlike Dragonmaw, Mag'har are uncorrupted. Grazzbek (talk) 20:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If a comparison was to be made, I'd say the Mag'har orcs are like High elves, whereas the green orcs are like blood elves. Essentially the same, but different. 21:26, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Tainted Orcs or Blood Elves are corrupted. But thats all. Corrupted not mutated like felblood or fel orcs but corrupted.[[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 00:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Dangit Moneygruber, you cancelled out the post I was going to make. Either way. Considering there are actually several differances between the two including, size, color, and demonic taint. So would it be safe to add Mag'har? Grazzbek (talk) 01:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Im curious to your comment about size. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 01:42, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If you read the novel Beyond the Dark Portal, it states that when the orcs took the Blood of Mannoroth, they grew in size, this would mean a height differance in Mag'har and Tained. Grazzbek (talk) 23:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd still say no to mag'har. It's a tough one but tainted orcs are just orcs...tainted. They are orcs under a condition but not a seperate race. Only Fel Orcs justify being another race because of the heavy mutations[[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]   (talk contribs) 03:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That's basically saying that High elves and Blood Elves are the same, the differance between them is demonic corruption. And the orc race refers to green ones and beyond.Grazzbek (talk) 23:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what im saying. Honestly blood elves are barely what you could consider seperate from high elves. orcs even less. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 00:29, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Still Mag'har is a step before the normal orc race. I'd still say yes, it doesn't sit right especially with 3 notable differences between the the orc race in general and the Mag'har. Grazzbek (talk) 00:08, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm just going to allow it, it's not that big a deal, but a no to the Dragonmaw faction of orcs. 04:38, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

The forgotten (but notable) Sec. leader
Can anyone re-add the of the Mok'Nathal?Gabrirt (talk) 02:09, 3 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Leoroxx or Rexxar? [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]][[Image:inv_helmet_119.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 19:44, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * While some of the mok'nathal have joined the Horde, it doesn't seem to me that the clan as a whole have joined. 05:04, 6 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Mok'nathal are both a half-breed and a clan.--Ashbear160 (talk) 14:04, 6 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Regardless, I do not see Leoroxx as a leader of the Horde.-- 03:25, 7 February 2012 (UTC)


 * If leads the Mok'nathal who have joined the Horde he must be added as a secondary leader of the Horde by leading a secondary faction of it. Another character that stands in a similar situation and should be added as a secondary leader is  (by leading the Shattered Hand clan). 20:12, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Leadership requests
Primal Torntusk or Elder Torntusk should probably be added. Or perhaps both.  (talk contribs) 21:25, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Torntusk Fammily?--Ashbear160 (talk) 00:49, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Added Elder Torntusk as the current main leader of that tribe. 01:29, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Theatre of Operations
"Theatre of operations" should have Quel'Thalas and Lordaeron merged into "Eastern Kingdoms" like they are in the Alliance article. Fojar38 (talk) 03:22, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Image
I think the current image should be replaced with the most recent logo shown here   (talk contribs) 02:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I prefer the full Icon rather than a simple one.--Ashbear160 (talk) 03:16, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It's outdated. It just doesn't feel right to me. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 05:42, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Other Races
I bring my debate to a much stricter area of this article. The wraith and zombies are few in numbers. A general would do the job better. One Giant Angry Badger (talk) 01:33, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Coobra. I appreciate that. One Giant Angry Badger (talk) 04:04, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Update for MoP, make Pandaren a main race, add Ji Firepaw as a main leader.
Ji Firepaw should be added to the list of main leaders, and the Pandaren should be moved from Other Races to Main Races, as they are the new playable race in MoP. MaverickHunter40245 (talk) 00:36, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Warchief, Orc Leader
Replace Garrosh with Thrall and Vol'jin as racial leader and Warchief. respectively. 04:32, 2013 September 12

Vol'jin Leader
Can someone add Vol'jin as main leader and Thrall as secondary leader? Kookamooka (talk) 05:04, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm, how to handle this... Garrosh is the Orc leader that all new players will see up until the next expansion. Thrall is likely to take up leadership of the Orcs again, while Vol'jin becomes the official Warchief... I'll make a certain change that made seem odd, but will work until things are changed in-game. 05:25, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Chief Kah Kah
Add Chief Kah Kah to the secondary leaders

Updates
Thrall replaces Garrosh, Nazgrel and Zeala removed, maybe add Galen Trollbane and Boss Mida. ShadowShade81413 (talk) 00:51, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see a reason to remove Nazgrel, nor do I see a reason to add Galen or Mida. Thrall is probably also not going to be the new orc leader. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 01:25, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of Nazgrim, never mind. And I'm pretty sure he already is. --ShadowShade81413 (talk) 02:31, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * They don't seem to want Thrall to replace Garrosh. No updates need take place until WoD is even close. 03:06, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Chris Metzen said at BlizzCon that they don't know who the orc leader will be yet, but he doesn't want it to be Thrall. Right now they're leaning toward Saurfang, or possibly Eitrigg, but nothing is final yet. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 19:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Additions
Master Apothecary Faranell, Primal Torntusk, Master Gadrin, Rexxar, and Leoroxx could maybe be secondary leaders. --ShadowShade81413 (talk) 02:40, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Faranell a leader of a Forsaken only organization, so a secondary leader of the Forsaken, but not really of the Horde.
 * Primal Torntusk is no longer the leader, Elder Torntusk is.
 * Master Gadrin, an adviser, not leader
 * Rexxar, a Champion of the Horde, not a leader
 * Leoroxx, as I understand it, the clan in Outland never joined the Horde, they're just Horde-friendly.
 * -- 22:35, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The RAS is very widespread though and has appeared in all other Horde areas, as well as in Outland and Northrend. It's as big of an organization as S:I7. Are the Torntusks co. leaders, like Tyrande and Malfurion? And I'm pretty sure Mok'Nathal neutrality came from the RPG, which isn't canon anymore. Speaking of the clan, would Orhan Ogreblade also be a possible secondary leader? She seems to be Shandris' counterpart. --ShadowShade81413 (talk) 01:56, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Well the S:I7 have members from all races, but the RAS only seem to have Forsaken members. The Torntusks could be co leaders, just don't really know, little information on them since Cata. I think its brought up doing the questing in Blade's Edge that the Mok'Nathal said something about not joining, can't remember. 03:22, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Even though it has members of other races, they all seem to be serving Stormwind. Tyrion and Doc Mixilpixil are marked Stormwind NPCs and Renzik "The Shiv" obviously doesn't serve a goblin Alliance nation. RAS by its nature makes it hard for other races to join (given its treasonous activities), but its definitely a large organization that was founded by Sylvanas herself. I couldn't find that quest. I think we should at least put Ogreblade, if not Leoroxx. --ShadowShade81413 (talk) 20:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Faranell a leader of a Forsaken only organization, so a secondary leader of the Forsaken, but not really of the Horde." - (Blood Knights) and  (Farstriders) are leaders of secondary factions of the Kingdom of Quel'Thalas and  is exactly because of this that they are secondary leaders of the Horde. It's written "secondary leaders" not "famous characters". Also I believe that  (leader of the Tauren priesthood),  (leader of a tribe) and  (leader of the Sunwalkers), besides of the already cited  and, should be included as secondary leaders. 21:04, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Why you don't add Thrall as leader of the orcs, removing Garrosh? The game isn't the only source of lore and War Crimes have already been launched. 20:02, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Because, I believe, the racial leader of orcs isn't revealed yet. However, new loading screens have Thrall there so... still hoping for Varok or Eitrigg to shine :D --Mordecay (talk) 20:08, 21 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Fine, Faranell added, as with a few others. As for starting to add leaders of the classes from each faction, only if they are notable to avoid bloat. The infobox is not supposed to contain every little detail, thats the point of the article. 21:19, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Add (leader the Dawnchaser tribe),  (leader of the Shattered Hand),  (leader of the Stonehoof tribe),  (leader of the Burning Blade) and  (leader of the Cliffwalker tribe and high ranking member) as well. 15:09, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe Durotan should be added to the list. OneVeryFancyElf (talk) 05:10, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Just because someone leads a group that is part of the Horde does not make them, or their group, notable. Dezco is the only one in that list who might possibly qualify, and even then I'm dubious. The Dawnchaser Tribe, Shattered Hand Clan, and Stonehoof Tribe are extremely minor parts of the Horde in the grand scheme of things, none of which has really done anything noteworthy (all of Dezco's notability is as himself, not as the Danchaser chieftain). The Burning Blade isn't even an actual part of the Horde, being that they're secretly allied with the Shadow Council (or, more likely, dead in the wake of Garrosh's warlock purge). And the AU Frostwolves are allied with Thrall; they are not part of the Horde. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 08:09, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * As leaders of secondaries factions of the Horde they should be included on secondary leaders. As I said on the past, it's about "secondary leaders" not "famous characters". I want to remember to someone to add the High Warlord (high ranking member of the Horde and "guardian" of ). I'm requesting also the add of  (leader of the Gob Squad). Also I was thinking if we shouldn't add  (leader of the Blood Hawks) but I don't know if the faction are directly affiliated with the Kingdom of Quel'Thalas or if its just a third-ranking faction. Other candidate on the list is  (leader of the Defilers). Also, can you translate "AU Frostwolves"? Have something to do with "alternate universe"? 20:45, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Can someone add and  as former leaders? 20:54, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Remove Magatha
In The Shattering it's stated she was the only Tauren chief not to pledge her allegiance to the Horde. She might have been listed Horde for game mechanics but she was always neutral in lore. OneVeryFancyElf (talk) 01:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Reviving the topic :D Please, remove Magatha.--Mordecay (talk) 20:00, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Please, remove Magatha, she never was a Horde leader SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 20:50, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Relinking
Especially by being a list I believe that all leaders should be NPC-linked. 22:32, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That seems an argument as to why they SHOULDN'T be NPC-linked. That, plus the fact that this is a list of characters and not NPCs, seems pretty definitive on the matter. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 00:23, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Warlords
At this time we know for sure that Durotan will become a major ally of the Horde on Draenor. Shouldn't he be added to the secondary leaders? Also, although it might not be 100% clear atm, a character named Kaz the Shrieker apparently leads the Laughing Skull in Gorgrond whom have also allied themselves with the Horde. Shouldn't she be put on the list too or do we want to wait and see if they will get another one, just as she recently replaced Mogor? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.

Wyverns
Being that they are recognized as a beast, I do not see why they would be considered a Horde Race sans worgs, kodos, undead Horse, hawkstriders, etc.


 * They are sapient beasts (like dragons). They chose to ally with the Horde. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 01:13, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Nazgrel, secondary leader
Please add Nazgrel to secondary leader, than he is leader of horde expedition to Outlande. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.
 * He has been on the list for years, take another look. 17:57, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry bro, my error
 * Is it possible to remove "general"? He doesn't have that title.--Mordecay (talk) 22:32, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Horde must be greater than the Alliance
Given that the Alliance has the character of secondary leaders stated more people, both Horde would be good added Rehgara, Aleric Hawkins (leader Deathstalkers) Nathanose Blightcallera (leader of dark rangers and leaders of hunters abandoned and he is a champion Sylvanas abandoned), Commander Molotov (highest general of the armed forces Bilgewater Cartel and Bilgewater Battalion Commander), Rokhan (the largest Scout Horde member of Horde expedition to northrend and memjer of Azethorican expedition to draenor).

Durotan
After playing through every zone in the expansion thrice over, I believe we can safely count Durotan's Draenor counterpart as a secondary leader of the Horde. Kaz the Shrieker is only loosely allied with the Frostwolves, so I wouldn't list her, Durotan however clearly has a role in leading the Horde's assault on the Iron Horde, namely in Talador and Nagrand. Thoughts? OneVeryFancyElf (talk) 02:32, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Minor request
Same thing as with the Alliance infobox; could someone replace the generic pandaren male icon for Ji in the infobox with the Ji icon? -- 16:13, 12 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, I agree with OneVeryFancyElf's suggestion above; Durotan is a prominent enough character to be added to the infobox. -- 16:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)


 * I'd have to disagree. The focus with leadership on Draenor was placed on the player (the commander). Although Durotan plays a major role in leadership, its over the Frostwolves which ally with the Horde, I didn't see them actually join the Horde. I would say the same for any alternate group for either faction. 23:10, 12 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Agreed with Coobra. --Mordecay (talk) 10:10, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Alright, fair enough. -- 13:06, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Changes
I added some important leaders missing like Geyah, Nathanos, Dranosh, and Varimathras and organized the list.


 * label1 = Main leaders
 * data1  =  Vol'jin

Baine Bloodhoof

Sylvanas Windrunner

Lor'themar Theron

Jastor Gallywix

Ji Firepaw
 * label2 = Secondary leaders
 * data2  =  Thrall

General Drek'Thar

Varok Saurfang

Nazgrel

Greatmother Geyah

Jorin Deadeye

Hamuul Runetotem

Jevan Grimtotem

Aponi Brightmane

Nathanos Blightcaller

Master Apothecary Faranell

Halduron Brightwing

Grand Magister Rommath

Lady Liadrin

Aethas Sunreaver

Tae'thelan Bloodwatcher

Elder Torntusk

Roanauk Icemist

Chief Kah Kah
 * label3 = Former leaders
 * data3  =  Garrosh Hellscream &dagger;

Dranosh Saurfang &dagger;

Warlord Zaela &dagger;

Cairne Bloodhoof &dagger;

Magatha Grimtotem

Varimathras

ShadowShade81413 (talk) 20:46, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * What is your criteria for the new arrangement of secondary leaders? 14:00, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
 * the general orc/tauren/troll/undead/bloodelf/goblin/others in order of joining
 * Thrall is a former warchief, Drek'thar is a Chieftain, Varok leads the Kor'kron, Nazgrel is an advisor, Geyah is the main Mag'har leader, Jorin is a lesser one
 * Hamuul is one of the main original leaders, Jevan leads a tribe, Aponi is a class leader
 * Nathanos is the champion and important military leader, Faranell leads an important organization
 * Ranger-general leads the whole military, Rommath is one of the three main leaders, Liadrin was the next most important blood elf in BC and was important before, Aethas became important in WotLK, and Tae'thelan is the least notable and appeared in Cata
 * Rest are others in order they appeared.

ShadowShade81413 (talk) 18:53, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Undead kinds
Shouldn't the infobox have on the race list the undead listed bellow "The Forsaken employ various different types of undead."? 21:29, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikifing
I believe the NPC Template should be use as pattern and I also believe lists specially asks for being wikified with it and, so, I ask a NPC-wikifing on all leadership parameters. 21:39, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

High Warlords
See discussion here. 20:30, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Renewing issues
I asked here to wikify the template through the NPC tag. I'm renewing the request now we agreed to use it on inboxes and lists. Here I asked to add some Forsaken undead kinds to the infobox, such as, Banshee,  Val'kyr and  Abomination. Here no one answered my final argue, and here no one answered my request to add Jor'kil and Karga to former leaders, as well not as my comments to add The Black Bride and Aeldon Sunbrand to sec. leaders. 16:12, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
 * 1. We are trying to REDUCE the use of the NPC tag, not expand it. This isn't going to happen.
 * 2. If we add literally every race with any representation at all, this template will be enormous. We're sticking to the main races rather than adding all the minor elements of each faction.
 * 3. Similar to the above, the Secondary Leaders list is already large enough. We're not going to add the leaders of every single group, no matter how minor. And those leaders and groups are definitely minor. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 19:12, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you. 23:43, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

New Pitch

 * label1 = Main leaders
 * data1  =


 * label2 = Secondary leaders
 * data2  =


 * label3 = Former leaders
 * data3  =

Put the former leaders in the same race order, instead of reverse death/defected order, as the rest of the list. --ShadowShade81413 (talk) 18:17, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Updated NPC and KIA templates. ShadowShade81413 (talk) 08:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)


 * label1 = Main leaders
 * data1  =


 * label2 = Secondary leaders
 * data2  =


 * label3 = Former leaders
 * data3  =

I made another version. Removed champions, class leaders, partly allied, and one time characters, just keeping important leaders of important organizations who have recurring roles, and also adding a few I missed. --ShadowShade81413 (talk) 02:17, 13 April 2017 (UTC)


 * What do you think about adding (Champion of the Horde and leader in absentia of the Stonemaul clan),  (supported leader of the Stonemaul clan),  (leader of the Mok'nathal) and  (leader of the Shattered Hand)?  20:44, 13 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm inclined to support adding Rexxar, though Gourra opposed it last time. Tharg isn't the official leader and hasn't done anything else. Mok'Nathal are just Horde aligned and Leoroxx hasn't left Outland. Gordul hasn't really done anything. I cleaned both lists of leaders that only appear once and/or haven't done anything in awhile and leaders from factions that are exclusive to new zones (like Frostborn and Taunka) and never appeared again. The lists will get too long otherwise. --ShadowShade81413 (talk) 05:08, 14 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Just because they not have appeared recently it doesn't mean they have stop leading. There is no evidence, AFAIK, they have get out form their offices/posts and I believe they should stand as leaders until a clear evidence say otherwise. For it, I'm voicing against the removal of, , , , , and . I have also to suggest include  and  on former leaders.  17:35, 10 May 2017 (UTC)


 * With ones that lead organizations and others only appearing during certain expansions getting removed, why are ones like The Black Bride, Boss Mida, and Gargok getting added out of the blue? 23:45, 15 April 2017 (UTC)


 * They made a second appearance in the A Royal Audience/The Victor's Spoils quests with all the other important leaders. Also I never realized before that they were the official leaders of the battleground factions, I thought they were just random battlemasters. I asked Gourra his opinion on Mida; she appeared in Legion too. --ShadowShade81413 (talk) 23:58, 15 April 2017 (UTC)


 * One could say everyone made an appearance in Legion, due to the class halls, Blizzard pulled in practically anyone and everyone associated with the classes. Other than appearing in the rogue's class hall, does she do anything of importance? 00:21, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I thought leading the Goblin Slums was important. Also what do you think about adding Rexxar? He's currently the only one from A Royal Audience not on the list. --ShadowShade81413 (talk) 00:34, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Rokhan
Add Rokhan to the main leaders. --Mordecay (talk) 11:39, 1 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Move Rokhan to secondary leaders. --Mordecay (talk) 20:24, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Centaur
Add Centaur to "other races". Dorthar -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 17:08, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Icon updates

 * label1 = Main leaders
 * data1  =


 * label2 = Secondary leaders
 * data2  =


 * label3 = Former leaders
 * data3  =

--ShadowShade81413 (talk) 19:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. Xporc (talk) 19:27, 28 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Please update the icons of Rokhan and Gorfax Angerfang, and change the tauren icon of Jevan Grimtotem for a Grimtotem Male icon,  ,  .Thanks SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 20:47, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. Xporc (talk) 20:53, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

BfA
As leaders of our new allies I suggest that First Arcanist Thalyssra and Mayla Highmountain are added to the list.--X59 (talk) 02:00, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you have a suggestion for the order of races and leaders? Xporc (talk) 12:48, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I was thinking highmountain/lightforged above nightborne/void elf above zandalari/dark iron. That is the order the are encountered in, since Highmountain has lower level quests than Suramar, the Army of the Light is encountered before Alleria absorbs the Naaru, and we first go to Zandalar and Kul Tiras in BfA. This is also the order the official website seems to use. Also I thought it would look odd if Alleria is above Turalyon since he is above her for the Sons of Lothar. So far on the new character selection screen, void elves and nightborne are above lightforged and highmountain, but this could just be because they were implemented first as the leaks have shown. --ShadowShade81413 (talk) 15:56, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Ay, I was asking about the Horde template, so no worries about lightforged/void elf :D I'd like to have opinions however on how they should be put in the Horde template. At the end of the secondary leaders section? In the middle? High above? Xporc (talk) 16:02, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * So far I think they should go in main. Despite the "allied" name the quests have shown they are full-fledged members. Since Blizzard is planning a lot more allied races though, it makes me wonder if they will pile up too fast and need their own section. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if they continue to appear alongside the other main leaders, in which case I think they should be considered among them. --ShadowShade81413 (talk) 16:25, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with placing them in the main section, at least until we know more.--X59 (talk) 16:36, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I suggest change the order of all races by the order in the creation menu: Races:         change the order of the "allied leaders" Leaders:   and add the capital cities of the allied races in the Other major cities. Thanks SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 02:20, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Some people want nightborne first, other people want Highmountain tauren first because they are encountered before the Nightborne. Any opinions, people? Xporc (talk) 08:24, 9 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I think it is better the Highmountian first, then the Nightborne, the same with first the Lightforged then, the Void elves. We should order them, instead of how they are represented in the creation menu, more like who joined first the Horde and the Alliance no?
 * Races:
 * Just an opinion, don't know for sure. --Ryon21 (talk) 08:53, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The thing is, with the allied races... you have a choice to choose one race or the other. So to lore, which one of them joined first or did they join at the same time? 09:20, 9 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I lean towards the creation menu order for the templates and Horde / Alliance pages content. --Mordecay (talk) 09:58, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd say either the in-game order, or alphabetically. I don't really have a strong opinion on this though. PeterWind (talk) 13:58, 9 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree with Surafbrov, we don't know the order of the allied races because that's a player choice, for that reason I propose change the order of all races by the order in the creation menu, ignoring in the case of the allied races, the first race that we meet in the broken isles or a favorite race. SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 00:04, 10 February 2018 (UTC).

Minor Request: Shalassian
Please add the Shalassian to the list of Secondary languages. Thanks SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 15:00, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Allied Race Cities
It would be possible add the capital cities of the allied races (Suramar City and Thunder Totem) in the Other major cities ? Thanks SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 00:30, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Ettin
The Forsaken have subjugated the Ettin in Gilneas and the Silverpine forest. They should be added to the other races in the Horde, and have a larger presence than the Kobolds that are subjugated in one side quest. --Neighgoth (talk) 23:54, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Personally I think neither should be on there. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:24, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with DarkTZeratul. PeterWind (talk) 21:36, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree, the kobolds aren't voluntary members of the Horde, the best option is remove them from the Template SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 00:01, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Secondary Leaders BfA - former leaders and theater of operations
I want to suggest these changes for the secondary leaders:


 * label2 = Secondary leaders
 * data2  =

//Remove cromush, he is only a notable orc

//Add Eitrigg

//Add Bwemba

//Add Jale

//Add Lasan

//Add Oculeth

//Add Valtrois

other suggestion is to remove the traitorous leaders from the former leaders, or remove the former leaders section


 * label3 = Former leaders
 * data3  =

and the last suggestion is change the theater of operations:
 * Before: Lordaeron, Quel'Thalas, Kalimdor, Outland, Northrend, Pandaria, Draenor, Broken Isles, Great Sea
 * After: Azeroth, Outland, Draenor

¿What do you think about the three suggestions? Thanks. SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 00:01, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Any opinions about this, people? Xporc (talk) 10:10, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
 * As you proposed, we should probably remove the former leaders since they take too much space. About secondary leaders I agree, but maybe some should get out like, for example, the Black Bride, since apart from the Battleground, she has not done anything else or even Tae'thelan. I don't think we should put here all the leaders of secondary factions. About the theater I agree but we should put Alternate Draenor instead of Draenor alone when referring to AU Draenor. --Ryon21 (talk) 14:55, 21 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Here is my thoughts and my edit to come:
 * Agreed, Cromush is just notable -- Removed.
 * Bwemba is just notable for now -- Not added.
 * Jale Rivermane and Lasan Skyhorn, leaders yes, but slippery slope if we add every tribe's chieftain -- not added.
 * Oculeth, notable, not a leader -- Not added.
 * Valtrois? Besides someone new nightborne talk to, does she play another role? -- Didn't add.
 * 18:47, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Updated the theater of operations as well. 18:50, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
 * We can probably get rid of the Theater of Operations field entirely, frankly, since it might as well just say "everywhere."
 * Also, when you said it's a slippery slope adding the leaders of every tribe, would you say that extends to removing all the orc clan leaders already on here?
 * Finally, I question what, exactly, Eitrigg, Boss Mida, and Hamuul Runetotem are actually leading within the Horde that qualifies them to be here. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 19:14, 21 March 2018 (UTC)


 * 1. Bwemba and Eitrigg were present during the dinner with the Horde leaders, so they are leaders of the Horde: A Recent Discovery
 * 2. Eitrigg is present at the Orgrimmar Embassy with the other leaders of the Horde (and, during BfA he play the role as one of the horde commanders in the Stromgarde warfront)
 * 3. Oculeth and Valtrois have a role in the nightborne government similar to Rommath and Halduron for the blood elves (and, in BfA, oculeth is something like the chief telemancer of the horde, because he offer a network of stabilized teleportation to the Horde)
 * SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 20:07, 21 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Although Bwemba and Eitrigg attended the dinner, doesn't necessary make them "leaders". 21:05, 21 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I will still argue that we remove Gargok and the Black Bride. Sure, they lead their own small factions but they have no lore connected to them. They are essentially fancy Battlemasters and nothing more. Hardly deserving of being called a secondary leader of the Horde.
 * Very much the same with Mida. I mean, who the heck is she? I have never heard of her or seen her involved in absolutely anything.
 * Bwemba is a rather uncertain case I think. Yes, she attended the dinner with the other 'leaders of the Horde', but apart from that we have never really seen much of her. Whether she is deserving of being a secondary leader I think we should not decide upon until we see more of her.
 * I don't really know much about Jevan Grimtotem but is he really big and important enough to be listed? The same I suppose with Gorfax Angerfang or Faranel.
 * In regards to former leaders, maybe we should just list those who were main leaders - Garrosh, Vol'jin and Cairne? Dajax02 (talk) 20:51, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

I think we should discuss the requirements of what makes a NPC a secondary leader. This way we'll have some "specific guidelines" we can follow, then we can thin out the infobox for both the Horde and Alliance. And also so we're not constantly adding/removing the same NPCs back and forth. 21:06, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Einverstanden. (Agreed) 21:16, 21 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree, and I propose this requirement, a secondary leader must be relevant for a race of the horde and part of the high govern or the high command of the army of that race or part of the leaders's trusted inner circle, so this leaders are out
 * only is present during the quest: A Royal Audience (Horde)








 * and I agree with Dajax02 we should just list the former main leaders
 * SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 21:25, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Let's continue this discussion at Forum:Defining Secondary Leaders. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:20, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Allied race update
Add the Mag'har orcs and Zandalari to the Allied races parameter. -- MyMindWontQuiet 21:35, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I moved the mag'har to allied races, but I added Zandalari to other races because they're not playable yet. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:27, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Please add Geya'rah to the leaders parameter 01:40, 27 August 2018 (UTC)