Talk:Myzrael

Old Discussion
''I have attempted to summerize the arguements presented on the issue of Myzrael's nature at the bottom of the page. Anyone is free to add their 2 cents to the summery. --Mikaka''

I'm not so sure that she's a daughter of Therazane. In fact, she looks distinctly like a Titan as opposed to anything related to an Old God. My personal opinion is that she was one of the Vanir titans that was corrupted by Therazane or a similar Earthy Old God and then trapped by her own loyal Lieutenants, i.e. Mountain Giants. --Iavas


 * The picture displayed here is the model called "titanfemale". No more explanation is necessary.--Kirochi 06:28, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

"My name is Myzrael. I am a princess of the earth, and my captors, the giants, have trapped me deep beneath the Arathi Highlands. These crystal shards are the only way I can speak with the surface world." from the Quest "The Pricess Trapped". So she is in fact a child of Therazane. I think, she looks like a titan, because Blizzard was lazy. --LemonBaby "A princess of the Earth", but the Earthen were created by the Titans, not by Therazane.--Kirochi 10:09, 25 July 2006 (EDT)


 * The fact that she refers to herself specifically as "a princess of the earth" rules out her being an actual titan. Her model is the same as Ironaya in Uldaman, who was most likely made in the shape of a titan, but again, this could simply be Blizzard being lazy. On the other hand, a definate daughter of Therazane is the Princess Theradras in Maraudon. But the two look nothing alike. Maybe Myzrael got all the good genes?
 * But considering the questline you follow to free and then defeat her, the connection between Myzrael and the earth elementals is undeniable. First, kobolds, creatures who live in the earth and would have an interest in keeping the underground safe, assist the giants in keeping her locked up. Second, when traveling to the various circles of binding in Arathi, Myzrael states that the strongest is at the one surrounded by earth elementals. When you free her, she tells you to go talk with a member of the Twilight's Hammer, who, of course, are obsessed with bringing powerful elemental entities into the world. Finally, the item she drops when you finally defeat her, and the item that you must reshackle in the prison, are Eldritch Shackles. And what popular Warcraft entity regularly wears shackles? That's right, elementals. --Mikaka


 * The good genes ? No, Therazane is as ugly as her daughter. And the fact that she's surrounded by Elemental-related entities recalls that the Titans and the Elementals are always fighting. I have no explanation for the shackles.--Kirochi 07:38, 15 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I stand on my point, there's no actual reason for her to be called an earth elemental. She looks like a Titan, she is warded by what she calls her creations (Mountain Giants, as we know, crafted by Titans), she fights against the Old Gods & Elementals. Azshara called herself the Queen of the Earth before becoming affiliated to the Old Gods.-- K )  (talk) 04:12, 1 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Please reference where she refers to the Mountain Giants as "creations". In going over the related quest logs in Thottbot, I never found her refer once to any of her "creations", only to her "captors". Also, where did you gather that she fights against the Old Gods and Elementals? Her questline involves a little bit of elemental killing, but the 4 elemental factions are known to war on each other constantly.
 * There in fact is an "actual reason" to call her an earth elemental. If anything, there's no "actual reason" to call her a titan. The only bit of evidence anyone has supplied in regards to that is that she looks like one. The quest info and common sense dictate otherwise. A titan is one of the most powerful entities in the universe. I soloed Myzrael before I was even 60. Even if she was a weakened titan, it still takes a tricked out raid of 40 to take down the weakened Old God C'thun, the closest estimate in terms of power to a Titan that WoW supplies. --Mikaka

"She looks like a Titan"

Just wanted to point out that this isn't evidence of anything: in WarCraft 3 Sylvanas used the model of a Banshee before being given her own model as a Dark Ranger; while never officially confirmed one way or the other, it is widely held belief that the only reason she didn't have a unique model back then was that Blizzard got lazy. This situation could very well be the same. (I'm not arguing for either side, rather suggesting that a difference between two such similar models [both female creatures of stone] shouldn't be taken to mean anything) --Pure.Wasted 04:37, 1 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Sylvanas <==pay a look, Sylvanas was officially a Banshee, and then recovered a real body. And we've already got earth elemental models : Theradras, and of course the genuine Earth elementals.-- K )  (talk) 05:48, 1 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Erm, what the HECK is the source of this?? "Because Sylvanas was raised personally by Arthus' powers, as opposed to being turned into a banshee by the regular members of the Scourge, she gained greater powers than the normal banshee in the form of a Dark Ranger." ---Pure.Wasted 11:09, 1 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Aw come on, you'll find ANYWHERE that she was the first Banshee of them all !-- K )  (talk) 12:51, 1 October 2006 (EDT)


 * Considering how similar the abilities of a Banshee and Dark Ranger are (both have an anti-magic skill [Anti-Magic Shell/Silence], both have Possession), it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the two fall under the same categories in many sources. The only real difference is how much more powerful Sylvanas is, and that she has a physical body. Saying that she isn't a Banshee would be akin to saying that Thrall isn't an orc because he has blue eyes. Not a TYPICAL orc, yes, but it's still the same thing, more or less. --Pure.Wasted 13:02, 1 October 2006 (EDT)


 * The color of Thrall's eyes is pretty much pointless to add there, no one ever discussed about Thrall being an Orc or not. Blizzard said Sylvanas was the first banshee, and then after we see her as a Dark Ranger, the easiest way is the transformation. I think it's odd to to say that you know Warcraft lore better than the devs themselves.-- K )  (talk) 01:47, 4 October 2006 (EDT)

Erm, my apologies, that wasn't what I was implying. I only used the two as examples to show that something as trivial as a different model (especially when it could be argued that the models share similarities) isn't likely to prevent Myzrael from being related to Elements instead of Titans. However, since we have no proof either way, really, I don't even see why I started arguing the point. *bowing out* --Pure.Wasted 01:29, 5 October 2006 (EDT)


 * cries desperately for mortal races*-- K )  (talk) 01:43, 18 October 2006 (EDT)

Err... She does look like a Titan, true. But that isn't contradictory withe the fact that she's an elemental. I mean, she says :

"Free! I AM FREE! I am free to gather strength, hidden from my captors. For if they faced me now they would surely overpower and again imprison me. But in time I will confront the giants, and they will regret their wardship of me!"

I don't know for you, but if I'd be kept captive for a long time, and suddenly I'm free, I'd first make sure that I'm safe of being re-imprisonned. In the case of Myzrael, while she's still bodyless, she must be more vulnerable to be captured again -or she wouldn't bother to make herself a body-. So having a body to hide somewhere else is a priority.

Secondly, she has to be sure that she has a way of being safe with her new body, while she's gathering enough power to crush her past captors ; looking like a Titan is a good way, I think, to deceive Mountain Giants and catch them off-guard.--Agar 19:40, 17 January 2007 (EST)

The Supportive Evidence

 * Refers to herself as "A princess of the earth".
 * The various stone circles of binding spread throughout the Arathi Highlands are directly related to the imprisonment of Myzrael, and are the location of many elementals. Myzrael states that the one surrounded by earth elementals is the strongest of the circles, and thus the hub for the ritual of her relase.
 * When you free her from her bonds, she instructs you to seek instructions from a member of the Twilight's Hammer, who are very much obsessed with bringing powerful elemental beings into Azeroth.
 * The item she drops when she is defeated, and the the item you must rebind into the prison, is a pair of Eldritch Shackles. One of the trademarks of Warcraft elementals is the fact that they always wear shackles on their wrists that bind them in Azeroth. Even Ragnaros has a pair.
 * She is in game classified as an elemental
 * Elemental entities are constantly getting imprisoned by whatever ancient race in order to pass their problems down to future generations.
 * Once freed, she attacks the players (indicating she is evil) and summons various elementals to assist her in battle.

The Evidence Against

 * If she's an earth elemental, why doesn't she use the model of an earth elemental, or the same model as Theradras?
 * Why would the players ever help an Elemental ? Just for the pleasure to kill her then ?-- K )  (talk) 12:46, 27 November 2006 (EST)
 * If you had completed the quest chain, you would know that the player was tricked into helping her.

The Supportive Evidence

 * She looks like one. She uses the same model as Ironaya in Uldaman, and is also of comparable power and level. Ironaya is clearly a creation of the Titans, designed to protect the secrets of Uldaman and the sleeping Earthen. Thus, it follows that Myzrael is a sort of sister creation of Ironaya.

The Evidence Against

 * The only reason the Mountain Giants would have reason to imprison a fellow creation of the Titans is if it were to somehow malfunction or become corrupted. However, to the best of my knowledge, there is no other case of a Titan creation going rogue and necessitating its interment in the earth. (There is a perfect example of a Titan going rogue... Sargeras. He couldn't be imprisoned as he was the greatest warrior of the Pantheon, but a weaker "Titan" such as Myzrael could be.)
 * Also, the troggs are known the be a malfunctioning and corrupted creation of the titan's that were imprisoned beneath the earth.
 * Twilights Hammer cultist have, thus far, only associated with the Old Gods and their lieutenants, the elementals. There is no other case of them going near Mountain Giants, Earthen, or any other Titan creation. (It's possible she was corrupted by the Old God that is imprisoned beneath Tirisfal Glades, thus suggesting why the Twilight's Hammer would have an interest in her.)
 * Blizzard has used the same model to represent different types of creatures before. For example, in the silithid hives in the Field of Giants, the bugs share the same model as the scorpid, but everywhere else, scorpids have no relation to that particular race of bugs. Blizzard is infamous for their retcons, after all. (It's entirely possible that scorpids are descending from the Aqir, just as the Silithid are, but most are so removed from the source as to have no modern connection to the Silithid.)
 * Her statement, "I am a princess of the earth" is left unexplained. At the time she was trying to trick the player character into helping her, so it could just be a lie.

So there ya go. Feel free to add any evidence you see to any category. Sorry Kirochi, I tried to find more evidence to support your side, but I couldn't find anything else in any of the quest logs related to Myzrael that supported her being a Titan creation. Note that I say Titan "creation", not Titan. There's no way in hell she could possible be an actual Titan. As I said above, I soloed her before I was even 60. A titan, even a weakened one, would still be comparable to C'Thun in terms of power. And no Titan would be imprisoned by her own creations, the Mountain Giants. Additionally, the presence of an imprisoned interplanatary God-like creature is sure to have more effects on the landscape of the Arathi Highlands than a few circles stones and a lovely collection of crystals. Generally in Warcraft, such inhabitants tend to have a rather dramatic effect on their surroundings. So yeah. Not a Titan. Maybe a Titan creation. --Mikaka
 * Do you dispute Ironya being a lesser Titan? (This unsigned comment was made by Bwmathis)
 * Well, what exactly is a lesser Titan? From my understanding, Ironya is a titan creation, similar to a golem, that protects the Titan's creations in Uldaman. If she were in fact a lesser titan, I imagine she would have something better to do then hang out in a small, dark closet waiting for adventurers to open the door so she can pounce on them. In fact, is there an official source on lesser titans at all? I've never heard of them, but then I've never read the RPG books. --Mikaka 21:01, 17 January 2007 (EST)

MultiElemental
I think the best suggestion that she's not an elemental but rather a titan gone rogue has to do with the minions she summons. The elementals wouldn't be able to cross elemental boundaries so far as we know and we know that the Elemental Lieutenants (especially Ragnaros and Neptulon) are deeply jealous of each other. The kind of cooperation to create Prismatic elementals which shift element rapidly strikes me as being repugnant to them. Duke Hydraxis is always talking about cleansing unpure elementals even if they are technically water elmeentals he still wants them dead.

A titan gone rogue seems more likely to be able to conjure up multielemental powers or to create new elementals and would have no philisophical objection to crossing elemental boundaries. IMHO


 * But if she was a Titan she would be much more powerfull than she is, would'nt she? according to Warcraft lore the Titans are much stronger than the Old Gods and since the weakend c'thun is the only Old God in the game at this time, and he is much more powerfull than Myzrael, it would seam likely that she is NOT a Titan gone rouge.
 * It is also not likely that she would loose her powers if she had been a Titan gone rouge. Just look at Sargeras. I doubt any Titan has gone as rouge as him, and he is just as powerfull as any normal titan. --Fatalicus 10:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Who knows what sort of captivity they had her in? How do you know specifically that in her weakened state she cannot be a Titan?  She is definitely not slain at the end of the quest, just rebound to the same prison.  I think you are all assuming too much by thinking she'd be much more powerful.  I do like the idea of a corrupt titan - it seems to fit much more than any of the other theories.  The biggest argument against it is that she's too weak?  That's a particularly weak arguement.  Again, she's not killed - just rebound.  Sargeras was bound when he fought Aegwynn, who knows what happens to a Titan when they are imprisoned for years?  A rogue or corrupted titan claiming to be a princess of the earth - sure, why not?  She's trying to seduce and charm you into helping her escape - she'd say anything.  Princess of the earth sounds a lot more attractive than "Hey yeah, I'm a rogue titan...  so uh, lemme free so I can stomp over all of you."  Or maybe after going rogue, she fashioned herself in her own mind as a princess of the earth. --Shipley.c 15:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Reasons
Why does Myzreal, once freed, decide to murder her savior(s)? Hordesupporter 20:56, 26 April 2007 (EDT)
 * She, as so many in blizzards universe, went insane... Or perhaps she was just mad about being freed too soon. She says something about not having her full power and asks the player why they have summoned her. TherasTaneel (talk) 07:26, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

Titans tricked?
accordinngto some sources therazane was mnever muck of a fighter leaving the posobility that her resistance against the titans was token. This may have fooled them i nto believing she was on their side they may have prevented therazanes banishment opon the imprisonment of the oldgods. It is even posible they helped to shape her daughter Myzrael into a form more like theirs and their creation's of course the elementals true nature couldn't be concealed forever and therazane was likely rebanished, but feeling a sort of "paternal" responsibility for Myzrael they bound her to the shards instead. Whether or not she considerd this a leser punishment cannot be certain.Scorpx3 21:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)scorpx3

Vanir = earth giant
Now that we know that Vanir means "Earth giant", I wouldn't rule out the possiblity that she might be a vanir "dark titan. In that context "princess of the earth" would be very fitting.Baggins (talk) 19:48, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Cata
Hmm... the Highlands were merely a setback huh? 21:40, June 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Indeed... I wonder hove many " was just a setback" there is gonna be in Cataclysm, probaly a lot. Aedror42 (talk) 22:15, June 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hogger (tactics)--Sheffi (talk) 16:49, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Titanic watcher
Is she a titanic watcher?. The article say so but in fact, she isn't listed in the titanic watcher list of characters, even not among the presumed watchers. --Petrovic (talk) 15:05, 5 October 2011 (UTC)


 * "Titanic watcher" is a fanon name for the race (I use the term loosly) of non-titans that use the "titanmale/female" model. "Watcher" may mean other things. Discussions on this wiki can last years, especially when there is little to go on. You can only police so much of the wiki, and race names are tricky. Some people insist there has to be one, and there is more than one of what she is, so concepts were shoved together.-- 15:44, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I hate it to bring up this old discussion again, but is there any source that says she is a titanic watcher? As far as I know only elemental beeings like Ragnaros, Garr etc are sent back to their elemental plane after beeing defeated.... To avoid the speculation in the articel I would suggest to just put "unknown" in her race tag....--LemonBaby (talk) 16:06, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree, judging from what is actually available, she is more likely just an earth elemental. 19:11, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * She even describes herself as "a princess of the earth" in The Princess Trapped (quest). -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 19:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The Ask CDev answer was likely referring to her race as well. An elemental, which would be already aligned with the Old Gods, would not be considered to have fallen to madness if they started listening to the Old Gods, while a titan construct would be.-- 21:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Possibly... But then, why would Deepholm be her home? Why would she return there upon her defeat? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:16, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No idea. The titans built the plane, so maybe they can decide what goes there? She is made of metal, and that is like earth. Also, Theradras seemingly didn't return to Deepholm, being bound to Terramok.-- 21:22, 21 August 2012 (UTC)