Talk:Lich

Lich races
Cho'Nammoth, one of the Warcraft 3 random Liches names, appears to be an Ogre name. So liches could be Human, Orc, Night Elven and Ogre.-- K )  (talk) 19:32, 9 December 2006 (EST)


 * Looks like Dentarg might not be gone, then. --Ragestorm 20:00, 9 December 2006 (EST)


 * Can these guys actually be dead? I mean it's like Kelthuzed unless you find his soul and kill him he can't be killed. So if all of these are presumed dead unless there is proof there soul was found and destroyed they are probably somewhere else laughing about it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.

Gender features
I read somewhere about a woman becoming a Lich, is there a difference of what a man and a woman lich look like? I mean even the girl creatures not in the game have some kind of picture mostly, I think. Mr.X8 17:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sure a physical anthropologist could tell you the difference between human and female bones... But really there is only a marginal difference in appearance between bones of the sexes, so no they'd probably not look very different. Not unless blizzard wanted to make a difference in clothing appearance.Baggins 17:30, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The devs will give the females of any race breasts, or at least a piece of clothing to suggest them, to tell the genders apart and for marketing purposes.-- 19:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Piece of clothing. Female liches would probably wear something that looks like a cocktail dress over their exposed rib cages, or have distictly female headresses. Half-rotting mammary glands would probably not make a "Teen" rating, and we know Warcraft liches have no flesh to speak of. Though there are differences in male and female bone structure, it is not possible to tell these from a distance- they must be examined closely and carefull, which is not likely to happen when one is facing down a lich. -_ Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly what I was trying to point out in my previous post, heh heh. To go into greater detail though, it generally takes a full skeleton in order to tell if a bones are male or female, as accurately as possible. With less than a full skeleton, guesses can be made based on certain details of certain bones. For example ridge at the top of the eye socket is often thicker in men than in women. However this is not entirely accurate way to indicate sex, because some women may have a build up of hormones that may cause the eye ridge to be thicker, and appear to be masculine. The size of the hips and birth canal is an even better way to tell the sex of bones. However, even with a full skeleton mistakes happen, and sometimes bones are mislabeled, due to various reasons.


 * As Ragestorm said, its obvious one is not going to get that close to a lich to be able to tell the difference in bone structures LOL.Baggins 20:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * In humans, hip bones are another major way to tell- the shape of the female hipbones are different to accomodate pregnancy. With liches, we may also deal with orc liches, who seem to display a greater degree of sexual dimorphism than humans. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 20:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * "In humans, hip bones are another major way to tell- the shape of the female hipbones are different to accomodate pregnancy."
 * Yes, this is true, although, however as I alluded to in an above post there has been some documented cases where this wasn't perfect either. Some men have been born with exaggerated hips, and in some cases other men had bones were warped out of shape or crushed after birth, making it appear larger than it should have been. As well as women born with smaller hip bones, or had bones crushed or warped during life. In some cases the bones were crushed so badly after death, that it was difficult to glean any details from the hips, indicating either way. But as a general rule it is one of the most accurate indicaters for which sex.Baggins 21:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * General rule, Akhenaton notwithstanding. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 21:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Lawl!!!Baggins 21:44, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * See Lady Deathwhisper Aphetoros (talk) 06:11, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Rogue Liches
"...Instead, these liches harbor a single, driving goal; revenge. They seek out those who helped bring about their downfall..." Is this a subtle way of saying that those who brought about the downfall, killed it and were not clever enough to destroy the phylactery so the lich is now after them for revenge? TherasTaneel (talk) 20:10, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretty much. Aphetoros (talk) 06:10, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Undead Archmages
Are liches basically the archmagi of necromancy? Aphetoros (talk) 06:13, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * They are the greatest necromancers... I'm not sure if that is all it takes to be a lich.-- 06:23, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Title
Why is the old "Lords of Undeath" title being repeatedly removed from the racebox when similar titles exist on other pages (human, orc, worgen, blood elf, night elf, goblin, tauren, jungle troll, etc.)? Egrem (talk) 07:20, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

RPG
All but one of the citations in this page are from the RPG. Someone more competent than I might want to clean the page up a bit. -- 07:11, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The hunt for the elusive orc lich
Since my comment about the lack of liches of orcish origins was flagged with a, I figured I'd use the discussion page to explain my reasoning. Going through every one of the liches listed on Category:Liches, I looked for any hint that they had the backstory stated in the WCIII manual (orc warlocks and orc death knights turned by Kil'jaeden into the first members of the Scourge). Here's what I found:
 * Five are not canon: Abrakkar the Wretched and Ra'sal are from the RPG, Calis Wraithson and Venim Iceblade were removed from WCIII and Swifticle is from a joke map.
 * Thirteen have no lore at all so it's impossible to say: Artruis the Heartless, Balzaphon, Lich-Lord Chillwinter, Darkfallen Advisor, Harbinger of Horror, Iceborn Conjurer, Talar Icechill, Risen Archmage, Scorn, Sepulchral Overseer, Tanathal, Thexal Deathchill and Master Summoner Zarod.
 * Eight don't have any lore on their pre-lich days so we can't tell either way: Amnennar the Coldbringer, Araj the Summoner, Instructor Chillheart, Lady Deathwhisper, Kirkessen the Zealous, Morbent Fell, Rage Winterchill and Ras Splinterspine.
 * Five are clearly humans: Kel'Thuzad, Morbent Fel , Ras Frostwhisper , Thel'zan the Duskbringer and Timolain the Accursed
 * Three don't have a race clearly stated but still don't fit the WCIII backstory:
 * Novos the Summoner was a member of the Cult of the Damned who carved his own heart from his body and showed it to his master, which contradicts the idea that Kil'jaeden forcefully turned them into liches long before the Cult was created. Still could be an orc I suppose.
 * Naberius was, according to Excerpts from the Journal of Archmage Vargoth, a member of the Kirin Tor and the Alliance Expedition to Draenor in WCII BtDP. Not only these organisations would not have an orc in their rank, Vargoth's journal calls Naberius a "close associate" in the same paragraph that he says he's "Always distrustful of orcs", so he can't be an orc, not to mention an orc warlock or death knight.
 * "Amal'thazad was once a powerful frost mage who fought against the forces of the Lich King. Arthas, impressed with the mage's power, raised him into undeath as the lich Amal'thazad." . The idea that he was a mortal who fought the Lich King before being turned contradicts the idea that Kil'jaeden made them into the first Scourge liches. Maybe it was too quick to assume he'd have to have been either a human or an elf because he could've been any race that had mages, but at the time he was introduced (WOTLK) orc mages didn't exist. Which means that humans, high/blood elves, gnomes, draenei, trolls, or any neutral races are possible, but not orcs.

How should I write the entry to make it clear? Tell me if I missed anything. Nith (talk) 14:55, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Simpler is often better. I changed it to "Despite the Warcraft III manual stating that the original liches were made from orcs,[1] there are no named liches known to have been created in this manner." -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 17:56, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Sin'dane position
If Kel'thuzad first in the list of knowable liches, than Sin'dane should be second, since she has a prominent role in story and big role in the lore (as one of rulers of Maldraxxus) MM0 (talk) 17:38, 20 April 2021 (UTC)