Talk:Elothir

Race
Are there any proof that he's a night elf and not simply an ancient of lore? Xporc (talk) 10:36, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I always assumed he was an ancient as I've never seen him out of form. He is a humanoid however, even if that could be an oversight. Not sure. PeterWind (talk) 10:42, 3 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, he is a druid. Which means he's not an ancient. Also he's tagged as humanoid. The three archdruids of val'sharah are druids, but in cat/bear/tree form, like our characters can transform. ShellShockLive (talk) 11:03, 3 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Not sure if classification is any indication. Leafbeard the Storied and Dreamleaf-Covered Ancients are apparently ancients but are also tagged as humanoids. --Mordecay (talk) 11:28, 3 December 2016 (UTC)


 * True. Still, it is said many times that Elothir is a druid, which means he's not an ancient (the race), just like Thaon.ShellShockLive (talk) 14:28, 3 December 2016 (UTC)


 * ShellShockLive, unless you can prove that this guy isn't an ancient of lore, I'm gonna bring an admin to stop your edit war if you don't stop. Xporc (talk) 22:36, 3 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I mean, you are the one claiming he is an ancient, so you should be the one to bring proofs. 1) Literally every single druid and archdruid in Val'sharah is a night elf (then new ones came, troll, tauren..). 2) They refer to Elothir as a druid. Druids are "endowed with the gift of shapeshifting, allowing them to take the form of all manner of nature’s creature". Ancients are nature's creature. By claiming that Elothir is an ancient, and a druid, you're claiming that Elothir is an ancient that.. shapeshifts into an ancient. Not only does it not make sense, but you have no proof that he is indeed an ancient. Everything points towards him being a mortal (probably night elf) having taken the form of a tree, just like Thaon has taken the form of a cat. But, benefit of the doubt, I wrote "Unknown" under the "Race" category. -- ShellShockLive (talk) 22:49, 3 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree to leave the race as unknown (although I lean towards him being an ancient but w/e), but by the old gods, Shell, leave the ancient bit under speculation section... since it is a speculation... --Mordecay (talk) 22:51, 3 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I guess. I didn't mean you to think I was being aggressive. It's probably the media we're using to communicate (written) but I'm perfectly calm behind my screen ! ShellShockLive (talk) 22:53, 3 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Oh, don't worry about that, the bit with "the old gods" was just a joke. The point is that since it was in speculation section, it felt absurd removing it. Moreover, if u look at his quotes, it kinda feels like as if he was an ancient. But yes, lack of druid-ancient lore makes it hard. On the other hand, Elothir could be that lore. --Mordecay (talk) 22:59, 3 December 2016 (UTC)


 * FFS maybe you consider yourself as calm but I'm not calm at all. Speculations are meant to be speculations, don't erase them repeatedly like that ever again. Xporc (talk) 23:05, 3 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Calm down, buddy. --Mordecay (talk) 23:13, 3 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Alright ! For the rest, you mean the "mother moon" thing ? Well he was talking to Tyrande, who's basically the physical incarnation of Elune's voice on Azeroth, so it makes sense that he'd say that, it's not like he was talking to night elves in general. Also it makes me think that Tyrande specifically calls him "is that the Archdruid Elothir ?" instead of "is that the Ancient (of Lore) Elothir ?" which definitely points to him being "mortal" (I mean night elven or whatever race he belongs to). éShellShockLive (talk) 00:56, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing beyond your own speculation to suggest that Elothir is anything other than the Ancient of Lore he appears to be. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 02:08, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Why do you say that ? This is false. Here's a list.
 * Elothir is an Ancient :


 * He is called an Ancient
 * He looks like an Ancient
 * Elothir is a Druid in tree form :


 * He is called a Druid (Archdruid)
 * Druids in tree form exist in the lore
 * Nearly every single druid and archdruid in val'sharah (pre-Legion) is night elven, INCLUDING the 2 other Archdruids involved in the quest chain ! You are randomly saying that "yes, this one, just this one, is actually not a druid transformed, but really what he looks like".
 * There are good elements pointing towards both, as such I don't think either of us can truly claim they are right. ShellShockLive (talk) 02:36, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * So what if he's an Ancient? Where is it said that Ancients can't be druids? Nothing you said is evidence or proof, it's jut speculation. Sure, it's theoretically possible he's a night elf druid who's always in tree form, which is why the speculation section is there, but there needs to be something much more concrete to actually specify that he ISN'T an Ancient. We're not randomly saying he's an Ancient, because that's what he appears to be. You're the one randomly saying he isn't based on spurious logic and no real solid evidence. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 02:43, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * But you are the one claiming that Ancients can be druids. EVERY single druid in existence has been a mortal (night elves, trolls, tauren, etc.). There was never a single mention of Ancients being Druids. So you need to bring proof that Ancients can indeed be druids. Also "what he appears to be" is subjective as shows the entire discussion, all he appears to be is a tree : whether he truly is one or he transformed into one is unknown and as such his race should be "Unknown". I'm asking you, because your remarks about my "spurious" logic are infuriating specially since I've listed your arguments along with mine right above and neither are more compelling than the other : how do you know whether he truly is a tree, or a druid (as he is called one) that transformed into a tree? You don't know. And I don't know either. Thus, unknown. ShellShockLive (talk) 02:50, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Elothir *IS* the proof that Ancients can be druids. How are you not getting this? The burden of proof is not on us to prove that things are as they appear to be, it's on *YOU* to prove that they're not. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 02:59, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Again, what he appears to be is a tree. How can we know if he truly is one, or if he is a normal druid transformed into a tree ? ShellShockLive (talk) 03:04, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Another big point : all his disciples (exemple : Erwind_Mistfen) were described as night elf druids in tree form by Mordecay and Xporc, so why not Elothir and just these guys ? Why argue against me specifically about Elothir, but the other guys are okay ? You either need to make up your minds or admit that we really can't know and that his race should be "Unknown". ShellShockLive (talk) 03:27, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * As the note says, their names seem to be night elven. I don't mind turning their race into Unknown and add speculation about their race, though. --Mordecay (talk) 09:35, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Alright, I'll do that.ShellShockLive (talk) 10:58, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Well DarkZeratul undid that again, he doesn't care. Could you explain why ? How come Elothir's disciples who just like him are called druids and resemble trees are described as night elven druids in tree form, but Elothir should not ? ShellShockLive (talk) 11:37, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay, first of all, Mordecay was talking about his disciples, not Elothir himself. Second of all, please stop repeatedly changing Elothir's race to Unknown. Your theory that Elothir is a night elf despite all appearances to the contrary is just that - a theory. Wowpedia documents information as it is, not as players theorize it may be. Occam's razor also factors in here. Elothir looks like an Ancient, talks like an Ancient, and communes directly with the forest like an Ancient. The simplest reason for this is that he is, in fact, an Ancient. That you believe he is actually a night elf may warrant a speculation section suggesting that, but it does not warrant changing his race to Unknown merely because speculation exists that he may be something other than what he appears to be.
 * And yes, if his disciples actually use Ancient models and not druid tree form models (because there is a difference), then I would follow the same standard and put their race as Ancient with a speculation section. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 11:37, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * As far I can tell from Wowhead, the three named disciples use the Ancient model. The acolytes, on the other hand, are seen as night elves. --Mordecay (talk) 11:43, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * But Zeratul, how do you differentiate "talking like an ancient" and "talking like a druid" ? "communes directly with the forest like an ancient" and "communes directly with the forest like a druid" ? You're not being objective here. Anyway, I can't continue doing this. -- ShellShockLive (talk) 11:52, 4 December 2016 (UTC)