Talk:Eredar

The Spellchecker Rides Again!
I've just swapped Eredar to eredar, as per the official info. Don't change it back without good reason, please :) -- Kirkburn 18:15, 14 August 2006 (EDT)

Random
Article on Gamespy describing -what seems like- Eredar as the new alliance race: http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/world-of-warcraft-expansion/705785p1.html --Aldaris 17:38, 9 May 2006 (EDT)


 * - Nowhere does it say they're Eredar. They seem more like the Broken. Don't start any rumours yet. --Potbasher 06:22, 9 May 2006 (EDT)
 * - It looks like Eredar, however this is VERY unlikely due to the Eredar being demons. Jeoh 13:23, 9 May 2006 (EDT)
 * - Sorry Pot, but I DO think they are Eredar. They cant be Broken since they have facial features (i.e. a nose, see link below). Secondly, in comparison to Eredar... well, to say it's similar is a gross understatement. The look damn alike! Check out this link when it's not down. ~CatsHateMangos 09/05/06 22:27 CEST
 * - We'll find out tomorrow, chances are they are Eredar, or appear Eredar. From what I read on http://wowvault.ign.com, apparently they're WISPS that have mutated into the form of an Eredar upon coming in contact with Archimonde during the famous battle of Mount Hyjal. They appear to be the size of tauren, and they also appear to be the alliances version of the forsaken, and I can assume they will start off neutral with all the other races simply because of their appearence.

Pics of The Eredar Alliance Race:

File:4116772yv.jpg

File:4116784fb.jpg





--Aldaris 17:38, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

Look let's chill
We don't need to alter this topic every few minutes, we'll know WTF those creatures are by tomorrow. No need to write about every speculation that comes up... It makes everyone look crazy...Baggins 20:13, 9 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Yeah, well expect a few alterations incoming pretty soon: Proof? ~CatsHateMangos

Draenei are Eredar
So it turns out that non mutated Draenei are the same species as Eredar, and broke away from the rest of their kind when it looked like their kind was going to be corrupted by Sargerass. They are not natives of Draenor, and only named the planet that because of their faction name. They call themselves "Draenei" because it means "Exiled Ones".

We now know of one more Eredar leader Velen, but i'm lousy with the table mark up codes anyone want to add it in, with notes that he's actually sided with Draenei rather than the burning legion?Baggins 15:13, 10 May 2006 (EDT)


 * This article is going to need a huge revision in light of what we know... now. Sargeras history for one has been butchered... Sargeras may have still been corrupted by some demonic race but it certainly wasn't Eredar as we now currently know...Baggins 17:55, 10 May 2006 (EDT)


 * There's also the Nathrezim. It would be a fairly minor tweak to have the Nathrezim be responsible for Sargeras' corruption, and then he approached the Eredar.  As it was before, the Eredar corrupted him and them he discovered the Nathrezim.  --Adonzo 18:47, 10 May 2006 (EDT)


 * Well its possible that he fought some unknown demonic race(we originally thought was eredar), before nethrezim showed up. I personally say that we need to be careful not to be too specific on how many demons Sargeras fought before going evil, or we step on lore too much, and get to far into realm of speculation.


 * Keep things as neutral and non speculatory as possible(unless you note its speculation its its own heading). If you don't know something specifically, just say "a demon race" for example.


 * So let's try to avoid as much speculation as possible.-Baggins 19:03, 10 May 2006 (EDT)


 * From the Offical WoW Histories though (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/chapter1.html#2: Over the eons, Sargeras encountered two powerful demonic races, both of which were bent on gaining power and dominance over the physical universe. And then goes on two talk about the Eredar, and how they effected him during their capture and imprisonment. Then it seems his encounter with the Nathrezim is the last straw, and breaks his will. -Bao 22:25, 10 May 2006 (MDT)


 * Ya, that's quote directly out of the manual for warcraft 3. Nethrezim where his last encounter with demons and what finally drove him mad. His first encounter with demons could not have been Eredar with current lore however... But personally hold the possibility he fought some other demonic race, maybe one we haven't heard of yet.Baggins 23:31, 10 May 2006 (EDT)


 * Yea, although the way it states it makes it blatantly obvious (imo); I do concur that your theory of changing a couple words there to make it so that first demonic race was not Eredar would be the best way to fix the botch. Now the question is whether or not Blizz will be smart enough to do it. -Bao 08:20, 11 May 2006 (MDT)

TopDread, please excersice more caution: the italic text in this article was quoting directly from sources and does not nee to be edited for new info! --Ragestorm 19:56, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

Its me on the lore. Argg Blizz stabbed me in the back I'm dying. Last words fight the man Yarg *dies* http://lorelol.ytmnd.com/

I agree with Adonzo. Sargeras was good. The Nathrezim were bad. Sargeras imprisoned the bad Nathrezim, causing him to turn bad himself. He then recruited the Eredar for the Burning Legion, making them bad as well. --- User:TopDread 21:21, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

Yes Nathrezim were bad, they weren't corrupted they were as, the manual put it, "Enslaved by Kil'Jaeden" but they were definitely bad before hand. More thoughts below...Baggins 23:15, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

Over the eons, Sargeras encountered two powerful demonic races, both of which were bent on gaining power and dominance over the physical universe.'' In the myth adventure series (not WarCraft), demon is short for dimensenal traveller. So if the twisting Nether is in fact the fractual universe between the dimensions (yes, I know what I am saying), then any being who has even the slightest capabilty of interdimensional traversal is demonic, even if not neccessarily evil.

Here's my theory: Titans are worried about Eredar because they want power without limits (Who doesn't?), they send Sargeras over, and that's that. Then Sargeras goes mad, releases them, and because his form has changed, the Eredar don't recognize him until too late. The Draenei get help from some Naaru who were assigned to follow Sargeras, and the rest is history (Naaru are the exalted servants of the Titans, of which Elune is one). Farfetched but Plausible, Right?--Charred But Alive8:16, 15 June 2006

Clarifacation: To be demonic, the Draenei need to be able to traverse the Twisting nether, but the Naaru provided them a demensional ship. This seems to condridict itself. However, the Draenei could just have an armada of dimmensional x-wings and no colony ship, because they want domanince right now, colonies later.

The Elune-Naaru relation is just fan fiction. Sorry.--Charred But Alive10:10, 16 June 2006


 * Interesting, but that implies that the Eredar were imprisoned on Argus as opposing to simply living there, and it certainly rewrites the role of the Titans. Still, I think that line of thinking is a good one. I don't think you can use another series' definition of "demon" in this context. What exactly did you mean by that whole x-wing colony ship example? --Ragestorm 17:30, 16 June 2006 (EDT)

It is their home planet, and the Titans are nice guys. The x-wings are for invading other places. Colenys come after blockades. And I say I can use the other demon definition, so there! Humph!

Yes, I know I'm acting like a kid.Charred But Alive 09:54, 19 June 2006 (EDT)

Some personal thoughts on how things could fit
In the original story(let me begin a bit of a paraphrase directly from the manual) when he was good, he encountered two demonic races he was forced to fight against. Now originally this was Eredar and Nathrezim.

Now we know he couldn't have run into the Eredar.

So Let's say it was some other as of yet named demonic race. It was fighting against this certain race, that troubled him. He tried to trap this race in a vacuous corner of the twisting nether.

Then the Nathrezim show up to cause trouble. He fights them. But their darkness was too much for him so became insane, wanting to cause disorder to the universe to undo the titan's works.

In his madness he shattered the prisons he had made for the unamed race, and nethrezim setting the demons free. Thus the two races offer themselves before him to serve in any malicious way they could.

Let's pause for a minute to insert the new lore;

Next he heads to Argus to convince the Eredar a benevolent magical culture to join his cause. Those that accept are given more power and are warped into colossal beings. A faction of Eredar seeing what their brothers are becoming but don't want to to be corrupted, get help from Naaru and flee accross the galaxy.

So back to the paraphrase of the Warcraft 3 manual.

So out of the newly acquired and corrupted Eredar he chooses two champions to lead his demonic army of destruction. Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde. He sets Kil'Jaeden to seek out darkest races, and lure them to Sargeras's shadow.

He chooses Archimonde to lead his vast armies.

Kil'Jaeden's first move was to enslave the Dreadlords under his dark power. They became his Elite Guard and agents throughout the universe, and they took pleasure in finding primitive races for their master to corrupt and bring into the fold.

First among the dreadlords was Tichondrius and he agreed to promote the sargeras's burning will to all corners of the dark corners of the universe.

Archimonde empowered agents of his own, the mighty pitlords and their leader Mannoroth, he hoped to forge a fighting elite that would scour creation of all life.

Then the legion began its war across the worlds, blah blah blah...

If you took the time to read my paraphrase I think you'll see that that most of original intent of the story could be salvaged if blizzard made a few slight changes to what was said. The original race that Sargeras fought couldn't be the Eredar, but could be some unknown race we haven't heard about. The nethrezim could have still come second and been the ones that drove him mad.Baggins 23:15, 10 May 2006 (EDT)

If you ask me the only real solution is to redo the story for the new race entirely. Because they just killed most of the lore in one day. And people wonder why I'm an angry ogre.


 * Oh I thought they just call you that cause they took the happy goofy fat ogres out of the game, and left them with the meaner, sixpack chested ones ;)... I kid...Baggins 23:32, 10 May 2006 (EDT)


 * hmmm... maybe Pit Lords?  they always seemed to be on more or less equal standing with the Nathrezim in terms of rank. --Adonzo 00:47, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

Hmm, I don't know warcraft 3 manual made Pit Lords out be added after the Eredar, and Nathrezim, when Sargeras started making his burning legion.

Still I suppose it could be possible. Sargeras runs afoul of the Pit Lords first, banishs to that prison in the twisting nether, frees them when he goes mad. Both join him on his way to Argus. He gets Kil and Archi, to join his cause. Kil enslaves the nethrezim under his banner, while archi takes the Pit Lords under his banner. You know you probably have one of the better theories in trying to reconcile this mess. Unfortunately its still just speculation :(.Baggins 09:09, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

Night elf- Draenai conection
Take away the Eredar's tails and you practicly got an elf. I think blizzard is thinking of a relationship between them!
 * Because, you know, all elves have elongated foreheads, whiskers, hooves and inverted knees. --Adonzo 01:16, 11 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Oh please! The Eredar look more like Night Elves than they look like Drainei (from warcraft3x)! Why would blizzard make them so alike?
 * Hey, did you know that if you cut off the pointy tips of a High Elf's ears, he looks Human!? Make a Gnome a foot taller and he's a Dwarf?  Make a Dwarf a few feet taller and he's Human?  Just because races look similar, doesn't mean they are in any way related.  Besides, it's already been established that the Night Elves are descendants of the Trolls, and the Trolls are one of the original creations of the Titans.  --Adonzo 18:12, 11 May 2006 (EDT)
 * Indeed, there is no question that the Eredar are entirely unrelated/undescended from the same ancestor as elves and trolls. The Eredar are descended from the Protoss. Just kidding.

"Make a Gnome a foot taller and he's a Dwarf?"

As well as add an extra digit to their 4 fingered hands(while shrinking their oversized heads a little) LOL, but you are most certainly right.

Besides the Azuremyst Draenei must have surely crashed landed after the Night Elves were already around, since the orcs, and the battles with the Draenei happened only decades before the events of warcraft 1. No way they could have crash landed before the elves, unless some kind of time travel accident happened, which is highly unlikely even with knowledge that time travel exists in the universe.Baggins 18:22, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

A similar theory turned up on Talk: Faceless One, suggesting that the (very) vague artistic similarity between Faceless and Draenei hinted at a relationship. as in this case, the theory depended on the Draenei landing on Azeroth long enough for some people to be left behind, and the Legion not burning the world when they got there. Also, the Draenei were approached by Sargeras nearly 25,000 years ago, which should be around the time the Kaldorei first approached the Well of Eternity. --Ragestorm 18:33, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

I agree that Blizzard intends a connection of sorts between Night Elf and Draenei, even though quests and other material doesn't quite elaborate how, yet. We know so far that the Draenei respect nature, the elements, and the Light, which Night Elves also respect. (Night Elves are not shamanistic, but they have long had a relationship with the Furbolg, who are. ) There are some pretty big differences betweem the Draenei and Night Elves, too -- the Draenei clearly have an affinity for technology, and the Night Elves do not. In a pragmatic sense, Blizzard clearly intends for the Night Elves and Undead to be less... isolated... in the world, and that seems to be the reason Blizzard placed the two new races closer to the Night Elf and Undead starting areas. benefice2


 * The draenei crashed 'one month ago' according to their introduction movie. They don't look like night elves. At all.--  Varghedin   talk / contribs  14:06, 19 January 2007 (EST)


 * yeah, lol, they need to change that quest text, as next month, it'll be false. ;) benefice2


 * Er.... the night elves don't have any particular affinity for the Light (else there would be night elf paladins), there are no night elf shamans either in Warcraft 3 or WoW therefore eliminating their assumed affinity for the elements and there have been no indications that the draenei are the tree-hugging hippies (no offense) that the night elves are. In fact, there is nothing to my knowledge that suggests any kind of relationship with the night elves or draenei. We'll just have to wait and see.


 * Oh, and the idea of night elves and draenei being related is absurd. --GeekOfDeath 23:12, 24 March 2007 (EDT)--

family tree
Moved from the other page. because this thing is far from done. Eredar, are not connected to night elves. and eredar have evolved from draenei. anyway just fix the table before putting it in :P its looking silly as it is now. CJ 01:40, 11 May 2006 (EDT)
 * What?! Eredar came from Daenei? Where are you getting your information from? Just take a look at Draenei. And if you gonna put my table in the disscusion page I may as well go overboared and start adding REALY insane ideas to it, like humans coming from night elves and Murlocks coming from Naga.
 * see below. eredar/draenei are the same thing. there is no point in making a family tree for something that is just a different faction.. like humans / argent dawn, frostwolf, steemweedle, etc etc. there is no true racial name for the corrupted draenei yet.. though for comfort people simply call them eredar.  Draenei were the original race though.   nowhere are night elves linked... that's like saying a rock and an apple are linked.. they are simply not. CJ 08:27, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

NO, Draenei evolved from Eredar- either way, this is false, where the heck to Night Elves enter? --Ragestorm 06:42, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

I'm not sure "evolved" is the right word. Best I can tell we are playing the original Eredar, except they just renamed themselves "Draenei"(We know they avoided the corruption by Sargeras), it seems to be more of a faction name, than any actual change to their physical body at least with what we know from their backstory. If anything they are closer to the original draenei than corrupted ones that became colossal demons. Still sure we don't know how many generations they have since they left Vargus, so there could be some changes from the original Eredar, but do we really know for sure? I'm sure if Velen is still alive and is their leader in the game, he's likely going to use the alliance draenei model. while that isn't 100% reliable to know how he really looks, see for example Sylvannas' reuse of a night elf model(its the closest we'll have to go on until Velen gets official artwork). I suppose we need to wait and see if there is further clarification.Baggins 08:17, 11 May 2006 (EDT)


 * sylvannas is female,, and we do have high elf models in the game.. so kind of odd they havent fixed her yet. CJ 08:24, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

He = Velen, not sylvannas. Sylvannas has already received official artwork in both TFT, and by Metzen(at least I think it was Metzen IIRC) in the RPG.Baggins 08:34, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

OK, let's settle this right now: just because some people see a similarity between the Night Elf and Draenei models, does not mean that they are related- Sylvanas as a reskinned Night Elf model might have something to do with the reanimation spell Arthas put on her, and isn't really a major difficulty. Baggins, you're probably right- however, I think that depends on whether or not the Draenei are immortal. if they are, then they are the original Eredar, and that's how they looked before. if they are not, then they would have changed slightly.

OK, let's settle this right now: just because some people see a similarity between the Night Elf and Draenei models, does not mean that they are related- Sylvanas as a reskinned Night Elf model might have something to do with the reanimation spell Arthas put on her, and isn't really a major difficulty. Baggins, you're probably right- however, I think that depends on whether or not the Draenei are immortal. if they are, then they are the original Eredar, and that's how they looked before. if they are not, then they would have changed slightly. --Ragestorm 16:27, 11 May 2006 (EDT)


 * Ya rage, that's pretty much what I'm thinking. Though, a couple of thoughts.


 * So lets assume they changed from the argus eredar. First question would be how much of a change(25,000 years isn't not enough time for many changes to happen)?


 * For example Humans(Earth) have changed over the last 25,000 years due to diet, and environmental changes, but not by much, a shorter pinky, taller frame, some cheekbone differences, and other minor changes. Definitely not enouch to be considered seperate from original species(maybe some minor racial changes of course, but still part of the same species).


 * However, we also know Naaru were giving draenei powers throughout their journeys. Did the light change them physically at all? That's assuming the Draenei are/were immmortal or just gifted with extremely long life spans, did they infact become antithesis to what their dark brothers became? Demonic energies turned their brothers into collosal demons, did light energy mutate Draenei into something more "angelic"(for lack of better word?).


 * We really don't know. Even if draenei did go through a process of "angelic" change, and are gifted with immortality or extreme life spans, it would still be a kind of mutation, certainly wouldn't classify as evolution(evolution is multi-generational, not a single generation change).


 * assuming that they aren't immortal or long lived(Veren could likely be dead), and holy powers didn't physically change them in anyway, and they changed through natural process over multiple generations, it isn't likely they'd change enough in 25,000 years to be classified as a sub-species, but maybe be racially different though (in that case the term microevolution would be accurate, though its not a change of species).Baggins 16:54, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

So what's more canon
The cutscenes of archimonde or the ingame appearence of him? Because in one he has no spikes on his cheeks, in the other he has spikes and is a completely different shade of color...

Also some demonic eredar do have hair, but its often seen as facial hair, usually a goatee, or hairy goat like legs, and body hair on their arms and chest..., and that's in metzen's own artwork.Baggins 19:36, 12 May 2006 (EDT)19:27, 12 May 2006 (EDT)

DarkTichondrius added the spikes bit, I think- I don't recall seeing anything that could biologically be called "hair" on a demonic eredar. And PLEASE sign ALL your posts!--Ragestorm

Check out the drawn artwork here File:Eredar.jpg, closely, look at the body hair on the chest, legs, arms and lower legs, and look at the goatee.Baggins 19:36, 12 May 2006 (EDT)

I stand corrected on all but one count: no cranial hair. anyway, I'll change it, thanks!--Ragestorm 19:38, 12 May 2006 (EDT)

Also, Achimonde's artwork in shadow's and light shows him to have a goatee as well, and Kil'Jaeden's artwork in the same book shows him to have locks of hair tied into pony tails coming from his head, as well as a goatee... Of course Kil'Jaeden's appearence is somewhat unreliable considering his shape changing ability (While that book was the most recent depiction of him, we have no idea which shape is his official shape currently, and that one might have been designed to show him in one of his changed forms rather than his true corrupted form)...Baggins 19:44, 12 May 2006 (EDT)

You'll find your brain will hurt less if you accept the form in TFT as his real form, he is Eredar, not Daemon, I think this is enough for now- no one's likely to get mad at us for improperly refering to demonic hair :-P --Ragestorm 19:47, 12 May 2006 (EDT)

Hey I never brought up his Warcraft II image, LOL, that's something entirely different(which was referred to by the in the book, its the main point of explaining things away with shape changing LOL).

However in the RPG he received a new and improved image, where he looks like your basic eredar except with huge horns coming out of the top of his arthichoke skull, pony tails coming from the back of his head, a beard, 4 tentacles coming form his face, two horns coming out of middle of his chin. Its hard to tell if that was blizzard intended with that image, if it was to be his updated official appearance(the book is full of quite a few updated appeareances, including work by Metzen and Samwise) or simply yet another one of his shape-changes, LOL.Baggins 19:57, 12 May 2006 (EDT).

I'd better start buying those books. :-D--Ragestorm 20:23, 12 May 2006 (EDT)

Demonic, Lost Ones, and Broken
It appears that technically to a certain degree, Lost Ons and even Broken are also of Demonic origin. There mutations come from not only destruction of Draenor, but also demonic influence as well...Baggins 15:13, 13 May 2006 (EDT)

Velen the Divine
Although I see nothing refering to Velen as "the Divine" it seems to work considering the titles his peers have (Deceiver & Defiler). Don't know if it should be changed back to just "Velen" though. --Adonzo 01:41, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

For the table balance, we might as well leave it- though I don't think we should put it on Velen's page. But I think we really should change "Alive" to "unknown"- the fact remains we don't know if he's alive or not, and probably won't until that new book comes out. --Ragestorm 06:55, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

It is pretty safe to say that Velen is indeed alive. There are no other Draenei who could possibly lead the race as he could, although Nobundo could assist him. In the draenei backstory he is extensively mentioned. As was said before, the new novel which is coming out will explain much of what is now unknown. For now, I believe we may refer to him as Velen the Divine, while still remembering that Blizzard Entertainment most likely has a name picked out for him already. -Lokranis


 * Velenrulz added the "although Nobundo could assist him" bit to Lokranis' post. For future reference, do not edit someone elses posts on discussion pages. --Adonzo 04:07, 23 August 2006 (EDT)

Eredar suggested as the first magic users
Thanks to the person who bolstered my hypothesis with some facts from the bestiary, but I took out the line "This would depend on how long the eredar had been sentient and been practicing magic prior to their corruption". Their corruption didn't stop them from continuing to use magic.--Grid 19:05, 25 November 2006 (EST)


 * Fine that you removed it, but just to clarify, I meant the Titans shaped Azeroth hundreds of thousands of years ago, and the eredar were corrupted only 25,000 years ago, short by comparison. I find it hard to believe that no race discovered magic if the eredar are only, say 40,000 years old. Also, Archimonde's comment doesn't suggest anything except that the eredar see the greater arcanum as their territory- it has nothing to do with being the first mortal race to use magic. --Ragestorm 19:15, 25 November 2006 (EST)

Racial Tree
I have made a racial tree for the eredar myself, check it out! Should I post it in the article?

Oops, I forgot something in the image, so now it is fixed. Ok check it out here:


 * It looks pretty good, except that the eredar are the top is a bit inaccurate... the only known example of a "true" eredar is Velen. Of course, I don't know how old your post is so I don't know if this is really old or new... >.< --GeekOfDeath 23:12, 24 March 2007 (EDT)


 * If it didn't look like it was made in Paint, perhaps. 23:40, 24 March 2007 (EDT)

Dead or alive
Shouldn't Arazzius the Cruel,Levixus the Soul Caller & Prince Malchezaar be counted as dead in the table as all of them are part of quest to kill them so they have been officially killed off. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.


 * Technically, "Killable." -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 14:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikify
First of all, you don't stamp discussion pages- THEY don't have quality standards. Second, you need to actually tell us why you think the article needs to be wikified. -- Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * cleanup would be the correct tag. 21:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Still waiting for actual reccomendation. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 01:51, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I think I've cleaned up what needed to be cleaned up (some bad line breaks), but apart from that, seems fine to me. 11:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Racial Tree, too!
Lol nice title I used... but btw, I made a new racial tree the one i made before was just too... not cool.. I know its not perfect but I like it a bit atleast... well... here is my dear racial tree:


 * Straighten the lines, get rid of that god-awful halo of white around all of them, make it a bit smaller, and check your spelling.


 * I'm not mean, I'm giving feedback. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 21:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Corruption of the Eredar
Has it struck anyone else how terribly convenient it is that the Eredar were corrupted? I mean, think about it.

If Sargeras had never corrupted the Eredar, Velen and the Draenei would never have fled Argus. Kil'Jaeden's relentless pursuit would never have driven them to Draenor, and the Orcs would never have been corrupted by Kil'Jaeden, to the point that they eventually came to Azeroth - searching for more blood initially, but eventually helping to drive the Legion back once more. Also, without the attempted summoning of Kil'Jaeden, Velen would never have restored the Sunwell with the heart of M'uru, nor would A'Dal have redeemed the Blood Elves. Sounds like corrupting the Eredar was a big mistake on Sargeras' part. It seems to be the one thing that brought the beginnings of the Army of Light together. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 15:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * This seems forum-esque to me, but if Sargeras had never corrupted the Eredar, there may have never been a Legion in the first place. Also, this reminds me of the Opening the Dark Portal debate.-- 21:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, but the Draenei had next to zero effect on anything around them for 24,800 years, so it wasn't until extremely recently that the repurcussions were felt. And yes, this is forum-esque. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 22:15, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

There are two draenei on this page...
Are Velen and Jessera on the "eredar list" on account of both being old enough to remember when "eredar" wasn't a dirty word? Farseer Lolotea ● contrib 17:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 21:32, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

This is Eredar history in general. Man'ari Eredar is the evil eredar page.(talk) 02:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Please sign your posts. And the point is that they're the only draenei (as opposed to man'ari) on the page.  Farseer Lolotea ● contrib 17:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 02:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The older draenei were all eredar. If you can think of other eredar that were mentioned from before Sargeras, then go ahead.Baggins (talk) 03:08, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Draenei = eredar. The term "eredar," however, has undergone pejoration, and now basically means "big scary shadow-spell-slinging demon."  Neither of those two would call themselves eredar nowadays; as I stated, "eredar" has become a dirty word as far as draenei are concerned.  Farseer Lolotea ● contrib 17:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC) 06:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


 * And why are exactly this four Draenei on the page, and not more? I would cut them all out and only list the corrupted here. TheSatyr (talk) 17:20, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Eredar were a species. Until they split into the manari eredar and the draenei. Apart from slight anatomical changes due to their magical practises, they are pretty much the same species. Hmmmm. Quite a dillema, is it not? BobNamataki 17:36, November 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * TheSatyr covered what I was trying to get at: The only draenei who are on this page are those who have been established to remember the days when "eredar" wasn't a bad word.  In other words, it seems like either it should only list man'ari, or have a link that says "see also: list of draenei characters." [[Image:IconSmall Draenei Female.gif|16px]] Farseer Lolotea • talk • contrib 02:20, November 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, as the page is about the history of the race itself, I would say it should ONLY list those eredar known to have been alive back then, with the rest listed on either draenei or man'ari eredar as appropriate. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 02:31, November 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree to your point, but I would prefer to make two tables out of it, one for the corrupted and one for the uncorrupted.Is this OK for you? TheSatyr (talk) 09:02, November 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * So basically one for draenei and one for man'ari eredar? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 09:13, November 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes exactly like this :) TheSatyr (talk) 09:20, November 4, 2009 (UTC)

Origin of Magic on Argus
I'd like to know how the arcane Magic came on Argus and other worlds like Draenor, the Eredar were talented mages. Could it be that these planets had or have their own "well of eternity"?


 * There's no information on that subject at all (through Draenor is assumed not to have had one), but use of arcane magic does not appear to be dependent on a Well of Eternity. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 17:32, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Merged from Talk:Man'ari eredar.

Colour
Eredar can be both red and green. Anyone know what aspects it is that decides which colour an individual gets? --Odolwa 18:37, 3 May 2007 (EDT)


 * My guess is type of magic and application of said type, though the colors wouldn't have any philosophical connocations. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 18:46, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

Technically man'ari eredar have come in colors ranging from, blue, red, purple, and greenish.Baggins 21:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Famous eredar
I merged the table of famous eredar with the one in the eredar article. Most of the info was duplicate, and what wasn't, should have been. -- 21:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Term
I still don't get why "man'ari eredar" is the official term when it is found in one source versus "eredar warlock" which is found in around 5 sources. Rolandius ( talk  -  contr ) 07:20, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Man'ari eredar refers to the race and Eredar warlock is only a class no?
 * 11:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Pobabliy it's a retcon and the race used to be caled "Eredar warlock" until the release of Rise of the Horde, after that is called "Man'ari eredar". Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 17:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It is called "Man'ari eredar" to differentiate from the original eredar and the draenei. If "Eredar warlock" is the proper term, suggest a move, and figure out what to do with Eredar warlock. Move it to 'Eredar warlock warlock'? It was/is more than a mob or creep.-- 01:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Eredar warlock is the name given for their race in Warcraft III, the RPG, and some books. Eredar is the name given for their race in some books and in the Burning Crusade. Rise of the Horde I think is the latest published source that speaks about the demon eredar. I just looked and they don't say "man'ari eredar". They just call them the "man'ari". I guess it is like the "draenei" where they don't call themselves the "dreaeni eredar". So it looks like this article should be moved to "man'ari" and keep "eredar" for the original race. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 02:07, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with that, even the quest What Argus Means to Me says "man'ari" without the word eredar. But we should add to the article that they also call themselves simple "eredar" according to the same quest. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 02:22, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I added that they call themselves "eredar" already awhile ago. I just think the article title should be "man'ari" since they never use the term "man'ari eredar" that I have seen. Also, Ride of the Horde is supposed to be newer than the quest so I guess "man'ari" is what they call themselves now. The "eredar" article would then be the race that the draenei and man'ari belong to. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 03:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It wouldn't be much different from what happened to the Lost One and Broken articles. The "draenei" part of their was dropped. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 03:23, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, it looks like there is no opposition so I will be moving this article soon. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 05:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Look how many redirects this page has. There is no official term for the demonic eredar besides "Eredar". The Eredar page is currently about the race that is these guys and the Draenei. There are many options for a new name, but none seem to work all the way.-- 21:27, September 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the problem with this debate over stems from everyones understanding of the split 25,000 years ago. All sources have always just called the Eredar that: Eredar. When Eredar is used in any lore texts it refers to the race on Argus before the coming of the legion and hose who serve the legion now. The split was not truely a seperation of two groups but rather an evolution of an entire race and culture which resulted in one small group splintering off. The way i see it there should only be two articles: Eredar and Draenei. Eredar being information about the race and what the general population has been doing the last 25,000 years (Burning Legion) and the Draenei article with the information it currently has about that specific faction. 23:36, September 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * More on Forum:Eredar or Man'ari Eredar. I will probably start merging this soon.-- 20:35, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

Man'ari height
Something that bothers me about man'ari is that, many people assume that they are on average gargantuan giants (15-30 feet is the most common assumption I've seen). Which, makes no sense whatsoever, nor have I ever heard of any lore mentions of this. When I ask, they either come up with no source, say they heard it from someone else... or base it on NPCs..

From the Biology section it says: "Most significantly, most man'ari tend to be much larger than draenei" Without a source.

I know Archimonde and Kil'jaeden have their lore reasons, being the left and right hand of Sargeras and all of that. But those aren't your average man'ari. So it would be much safer to assume that your average man'ari is about the size of your average draenei, 7' for females and 7'6" for males. And NPCs are definitely not a viable source or argument for their height, as there are no consistencies, a lot of bosses and elites that are absurdly scaled for targeting purposes and whatnot, this goes for every race and creature in the game.

I've heard someone say man'ari are 30 feet because of... Fel. I find no valid source on Fel making creatures grow 23 feet out of nowhere, nor do I think Blizzard had that in mind.

So, question is, is there actually anything supporting such a massive growth compared to draenei? As they are almost the same thing, except for the Fel corruption setting them apart, which is no reason for them to be absurdly tall either. – WarGodZajru (talk) 00:51, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Don't derive rules from things that are also assumptions ("fel can't make things bigger"). Demonic eredar tend to be taller than draenei, at least before WoD.-- 01:21, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * And is there any actual lore on that? Or is it just the usual, "the NPCs are larger" argument. – WarGodZajru (talk) 01:33, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I forget.-- 01:36, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Not saying Fel can't make things bigger, I just find a lack of references and sources for it actually implying that Fel does so in lore. Not to mention, even if Fel did make an eredar grow in size, I doubt it would be 23 extra feet on average. I can see 1-2 feet more being plausible, but 7-23 feet (based on people's assumptions), does not sound very believable.


 * All in all, there seems to be a complete lack of lore sources implying man'ari are much bigger than draenei. Which was my point. – WarGodZajru (talk) 01:44, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Eredar already varied in size greatly in Warcraft III. Archimonde and Kil'jaeden were humongous, eredar creeps were big but not giant-sized. WoW showed us that some man'ari are regular-sized, while others are indeed giants. I don't see the problem, the text just needs to be updated to indicates that both sizes can be found. Xporc (talk) 09:19, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * NPCs and mobs and their wide variety of in-game scales should never be used as a reference to lore, because they're not accurate. And Wc3 is even worse, ice trolls were gargantuan (compared to dark trolls and other trolls), nerubians too, and quite a whole lot of other units. In WoW, every race has NPCs and mobs that are way overscaled, so, essentially, we should update pages to say, "some humans can be well over 10 feet", "dwarves average between 5-8 feet", while giving them a reference to some massive mobs. I think not. What I'd like to see is an actual source on man'ari being larger, which there doesn't appear to be, making that sentence/claim entirely false.


 * Besides, Archimonde and Kil'jaeden are Sargeras' lieutenants, of course they need to show off their position and power, and compensate with massive sizes, but they're not your average man'ari. So they're excluded from this. – WarGodZajru (talk) 12:36, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Demon sizes vary greatly. Archi was gigantic during the Third War, smaller in WoD. Same for Kil'jaeden. Winged man'ari are taller, normal man'ari are draenei size, in Legion. Some man'ari bosses are super tall too. Dreadlords can be normal or absolutely huge like the one Khadgar annihilated in Karazhan in Harbingers which was thrice his size. So yeah it's a bit up in the air. But Xal'atath does say that the Legion makes pitlords bigger than they would normally be. -- MyMindWontQuiet 13:32, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't know what you're trying to get to, Zajru. Most eredar lords (Jaraxus, Archimonde, Kil'Jaden Smith) have always been depicted as being huge dudes. Then you had intermediary eredar commanders (Baelmon the Hound-Master / Combat Demos, Overseer of Hate) as less huge, then you had elite eredar (Hand of the Deceiver, Oblivion Mage) which were still bigger than draenei, and now you have rank-and-file eredar like those found everywhere in Legion. All of those are indisputable and not incompatible facts. The text just needs to be rewritten to say that some eredar are bigger than others, and that's all. Their sizes are actually consistent, it's not like Garrosh where he's normal-sized in the world and huge in his raid. Xporc (talk) 13:43, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * But the page itself never actually specifies a height does it? Saying that "most" are larger might be a bit on the speculative side unless we have a written source for that. One might argue and say that all draeneis and all eredars put together respectively, the median height is higher on the eredar side. Although, as you point out, NPC size is not always accurate lore-wise. If there is nothing specific to back up the "most man'ari tend to be much larger than draenei" then I, personally, don't see a problem with changing "most" to "many" as an example. The areas on the PTR as an example is ridden with regular sized eredar enemies, but we also have several new mutated eredar models, the eredar brute being one such example. We also have a new winged eredar, saw a couple, one being Commander Vecaya. I've never heard the 30 feet claim myself, and I wouldn't be too worried about that, seeing as we don't back that up, from what I can see. PeterWind (talk) 13:46, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Of course, Blizzard has never really gone in-depth on heights and so on, so I understand the whole subject is unclear. Though as pointed out, the reason I brought this up was that, the page claimed most/all man'ari were much larger than draenei, while in lore, there is nothing saying anything like it. NPCs have never been a reliable source, the only accurate models are the playable models, and in some few cases, not even that is true. But they're a lot more thought-out than say, a massive eredar elite mob or boss. I get man'ari NPCs have been scaled up, that doesn't affect lore, though. Archi and Kil have lore mentions about their large sizes, tied in with how close they stand to Sargeras, but again, they're not your average man'ari. But, as Xporc fixed the wording, I can proceed to calm down now. I mean... I could've changed it myself.. but I didn't, idk why I didn't. Oh well, mistakes are made.


 * Stahp bringing up bosses and elites, they're always upscaled like mad and are far from accurate, this goes for every creature. There are 40' tall Zandalari in ToT, doesn't mean that's a possible lore height for them. Varian is(was..?) over 10' in game, but would most likely not push far beyond 6' in lore. Same can be said for man'ari, while they appear as 30' tall bosses and elites, they're most likely not much larger than your average draenei when it comes to lore. Unless Blizzard lore writers come one day and says, "man'ari are X feet taller than draenei on average" maybe because of the Legion, as MyMindWontQuiet pointed out about the pit lords, or maybe Fel does have a random, size-increasing side-effect, then sure, but as far as I know, anything like that hasn't been implied yet.


 * Fyi, the only times Garrosh was normal-sized was in TBC, after that he was slightly scaled up in WotLK, further scaled up in Cata, even more scaled up in MoP... and scaled up in WoD until he finally died. Poor Garrosh, all those size-increasing steroids did not do him well.. :'(


 * But yeah, wording has been fixed, so, da's my issue dealt with. :D (Though personally I'd remove the "most significantly" as well, it isn't that significant, unless lore proof is given..) – WarGodZajru (talk) 14:21, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * The thing is that for humans and orcs, they can look oversized when compared to a reference model, whereas before WoD the reference model for eredar were all huge Xporc (talk) 14:35, 13 July 2017 (UTC)


 * While I partially agree, I do think, that if Blizzard has ne mentions of their general height, and only the bits about specific eredar, we'll probably have to go with what we have, about NPCs. We should of course make sure to word it so that it is clear, that the descriptions border on the speculative, due to lack of reliable source material. PeterWind (talk) 14:54, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Eredar page move
Mmh relaunching the debate. Should we change the default "eredar" page to "man'ari eredar", along with a corresponding category, and have a generic eredar category/page for draenei + man'ari? Xporc (talk) 13:57, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Hmm interesting, so the eredar page would be like pre-corruption state? --Mordecay (talk) 16:49, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You mean having Eredar with the race's history up to Sargeras' coming, and then Draenei and Man'ari with their respective lore ? -- MyMindWontQuiet 16:55, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this or use the also existing Man'ari eredar shortcut and have it become a full page since it's already widely used.
 * Normally this wouldn't be necessary, but with Mac'Aree and the Army of the Light I guess it could be a bit cleaner. That way, people like Nuuri could stay as an 'eredar', and people like Kil'Jaeden would be a man'ari eredar. Of course, this is a change that could require a lot of cleaning up and switching a lot of habits, so I wouldn't proceed with it unless everyone was in favor for it. Xporc (talk) 17:21, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I think it may be more intuitive for the readers. It'd take some work though. What about AU Draenei? A subsection of Draenei? Its own page? -- MyMindWontQuiet 18:49, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
 * No, the AU draenei are functionally the same "race" as main universe one, so I don't think there'd be a need to split it. Still, any more opinions on this topic? Xporc (talk) 14:22, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Demonic Eredar and Man'ari eredar were merged back with "Eredar" before. I am not sure either are proper terms. "Man'ari" is used on its own as an insulting adjective.-- 19:29, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The demonic eredar do seem to have embraced the term Xporc (talk) 20:00, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Even so, the more "proper" page names would be something like Eredar (demonic), Eredar (man'ari) (which is a little too esoteric), Eredar (Burning Legion), or Eredar warlock.-- 20:36, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not really sure such a page is needed. I don't think we've actually seen any non-demonic eredar who aren't a) draenei or b) broken. Unless I'm mistaken, all the NPCs involved on Argus fall into one category or the other. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:44, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

I think the articles need to be split into two: "Eredar" (which would refer to the lore up to Sargeras) and "Man'ari" (which would refer to the lore after Sargeras up to now). In my opinion, this article is a bit difficult to follow...I know it needs to be cleaned up and wikified, but the split would be the best idea. Hallowseve15 (talk) 21:09, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I can definitely agree with cleaning up and properly wikifying the article, but I think doing so will resolve any issues that you perceive as necessitating a split. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:07, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

There. I created a Category:Eredar characters category from which Category:Draenei characters inherits. I also tagged every Burning Legion eredar as man'ari eredar as its race parameter, so if we ever want to create a Category:Man'ari eredar characters category to go alongside the Draenei one we can use a bot to transfer them easily, leaving only the Mac'Aree ghosts as true "Eredar characters". BTW, sorry for the frontpage spam, I should really have asked for a bot to help :( Xporc (talk) 20:58, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Eredar who are demonic are man'ari. "Man'ari eredar" is not a good name and has not been used officially to any noticeable degree. Better names would be Eredar (demonic), Eredar (man'ari) (which is a little too esoteric), Eredar (Burning Legion), or Eredar warlock.-- 21:15, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * To be pedantic, "man'ari" is essentially the eredar word for demon. It's not exclusive to demonic eredar and is used in Rise of the Horde to describe other demons as well. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 21:21, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Note that Archimonde and Kil'jaeden were already tagged as "man'ari eredar" years before I even joined the website. Also, since we're copypasting our previous arguments, there are several "man'ari" items and spells on wowhead. To me that makes it more current and relevant than the "eredar warlock" name, which has not been used since warcraft III/ Burning Crusade and would be very awkward considering not all of them are warlocks. Anyway, that was just a possibility for the future, if it's not needed we can always use a bot to clean it up. Xporc (talk) 21:39, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * There are several "man'ari" items and spells on Wowhead. Nothing calls them man'ari eredar, just man'ari. Eredar (man'ari) would be valid, but that is just a weird way of saying Eredar (demonic).-- 01:02, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Whatever we choose, I'd just rather not have any race name contain parenthesis in them. Just looks terrible in the infoboxes. 01:35, 30 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Then either keep them as eredar or switch it to just man'ari. Just be aware that man'ari is far more obscure than eredar. It also applies to all demons.-- 02:12, 30 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Well you are right about this: "eredar" as a name is very well-known, unlike man'ari. However, eredar is also a term that can be used to functionally describe several races. So what we could do, is to overhaul the eredar page to have different sub-sections in it, with one specificially dealing with the man'ari/demonic/warlock eredars. And then we just have to update man'ari eredar to link to that particular section of the page. That way newcomers can easily distinguish the original eredar and the demonic ones. Xporc (talk) 10:12, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

So the Army of Light members are truly Lightforged draenei and not eredar! Xporc (talk) 01:02, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

So Ryon21 launched the debate again. Honestly, I'd rather have an Eredar page properly cleaned up with several sections, one for each race, rather than an Eredar (demonic) apart from it. I'm not a big fan of parenthesis in race names as well. Xporc (talk) 08:23, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
 * That was my preference as well, especially since--as far as we are aware--there are no non-demonic eredar that are not draenei. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 08:50, 7 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I messed it up or something :/ but after reading what you said I agree with it. Then when I can I'll erease the Man'ari page and try to more or less make a section in the Eredar page about the demonic eredar. Ryon21 (talk) 13:40, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Relax, you didn't mess up anything. Xporc (talk) 15:49, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Kil'jaeden's palace
Kil'jaeden's palace/city on Argus is one of the main seats of power of the Eredar on Argus (or was), and where Illidan wanted to strike. Just like the Seat of the Triumvirate was where the rulers of Argus used to reside or rule from. I'm not sure Antorus was even directly called a capital technically (?), though we still list it. The |capital= parameter is rather loose semantically, it's just to point out that these are the main/the most important cities or bases of that race or faction. Krokul Hovel was never called the "capital" of the Broken, it's still listed with the |capital parameter.-- MyMindWontQuiet 15:52, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Antorus is called the "Burning Throne", aka the throne of the leader of the Burning Legion :p Also it's certainly a temple-city and the PTR called it the capital of the Burning Legion. I don't see anything wrong is listing it as capital of Argus and the Legion Xporc (talk) 16:54, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything wrong either. Antorus is Sargeras' throne. This discussion is about Kil'jaeden's throne however, the one from the Illidan novel, which Mordecay put a fact tag over. -- MyMindWontQuiet 17:12, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Since it is in a novel and thus is not widely known, a reference would be nice imo. --Ryon21 (talk) 17:51, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, precisely. That needs to be referenced. "It's in the novel" in the edit summary is not good enough. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:22, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what kind of reference is needed.
 * In the novel, "the demonic rulers of the Burning Legion [dwell in]" a giant city with an enormous crystalline palace (and then it's described as a "palace city" altogether, because it's so big) "on the lost world of Argus".
 * We are just listing that city-slash-palace or city-with-a-palace in that parameter. Users who want more info about it (the little there's about it) can click the link to its page, just like they can click the link to Antorus or the link to the Seat. -- MyMindWontQuiet 21:57, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You said you don't understand what kind of reference is needed, and then you described exactly the reference we're saying needs to be added. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:17, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * No. This one single line of info is (or will be) available on the (very short) page itself, a reference is not needed.
 * Specially since infoboxes tend to be low on references, unless the element listed is an obscure or hard to find piece of information. For example the War against the Lich King infobox lists the Alliance casualties at twenty thousand, you need a ref here. But you don't need a ref for Valgarde being the base of the Valiance Expedition, you just click "Valgarde". Similarly you don't need a ref for Kil'jaeden's palace, not only is the name itself very' explicit but you just click the link that says 'Kil'jaeden's palace'. Just like you don't have a reference for Antorus or the Seat, you just click the link to Antorus or the Seat.  -- MyMindWontQuiet 23:46, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I moved this to Talk:Eredar tbecause it's better for discussion about a specific article to take place on that article's talk page, and not the user talk page for whoever made the edit in question. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:27, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

25,000 years
A lot of pages on the wiki state that the eredar were corrupted by Sargeras 25,000 years ago, but what's the source for this? The closest I've been able to find is the TBC Townhall page, which only says that "Nearly twenty-five thousand years ago, the eredar race arose on the world of Argus". I feel like, logically, a decent amount of time must have then passed in order for the eredar to develop the advanced civilization they had, and Bringer of the Light implies that the corruption only happened 13,000 years ago. However, most of our pages instead repeat that the eredar were corrupted 25,000 years ago, and the High General Rakeesh page treats Bringer of the Light's text as a Blizzconsistency.

To me it seems like this is a fan misconception that's been repeated as fact since 2006 (judging by earlier posts on this talk page) without any direct backing from canon sources—unless, of course, there's another source I've missed where the 25,000 years thing is stated. -- 12:46, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


 * For what's worth, Timeline (unofficial) has also the fact template by 25,000 years ago Sargeras corrupting of the eredar. Upon checking Rise of the Horde, UVG, Chronicles, old manuals, History of Warcraft, and some quests, none say that Sargeras corrupted them 25,000 years ago, instead I found simply "thousands years ago". I got a feeling that it may indeed be based on the townhall mention, but with the development in recent years, especially the Second Duumvirate (whose name likely means that there was at least one other set of rulers) stating 25,000 for the corruption seems incorrect, and Bringer of the Light should be taken into consideration. -- 14:36, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I was the one who added the fact to the timeline page a while ago :p -- 15:16, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


 * At this point I honestly don't think there is an official source on Sargeras visiting Argus 25,000 years ago, I haven't been able to find anything myself either. The only mention we have of that timeframe is the townhall saying that is when the eredar first arose/evolved/whatever, and as me and DeludedTroll joked about on Discord, we doubt Sargeras would look at some talbuks just having started walking on their hind legs and drawing cave paintings, and think they're the perfect candidates for commanding his demon armies.


 * Considering how Bringer of the Light is worded, that Kil'jaeden waited 13,000 years to send Velen's son-turned-assassin that he explicitly raised into the Burning Legion—meaning the son was still young/very young at the time—because Velen rejected the Burning Legion and high tailed off Argus, is to me saying that this is in fact when Sargeras contacted the eredar. As such I'm positive that a span of ~12,000 years (give or take of course) passed between the eredar first evolving and Sargeras contacting them. 12k years should be sufficient enough to build a "highly advanced" society as they're described as having at the time of Sargeras' arrival in, page 51.


 * Rather than adding fact checks I think we should instead start to update these pages with this information because we probably just broke the code. –Mattalari (talk) 19:22, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I'll wait a couple more days in case someone has any objections or finds any conflicting evidence. If not, I'll start going through pages and changing any mentions of 25,000 years I find to 13,000, citing Bringer of the Light (when it's specifically talking about the eredar corruption, of course; obviously this and other pages should still mention that 25,000 BDP is when the eredar first arose). -- 11:58, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Looks like there's a problem, because the flavor text for Velen's Future Sight does actually say that Velen "has led the draenei for over 25,000 years". I'm guessing this is the result of wiki magic since a lot of Legion legendaries have flavor text that seems to be taken from Wowpedia pages and this pretty clearly contradicts the townhall page, but I guess we need to acknowledge this contradiction on the page, per the lore policy. -- 21:25, 11 May 2020 (UTC)