Forum:Alternate universes, WoD, Chronicles

So it turns out that Warlords of Draenor wasn't much of an alternate universe. Almost everything that is described or depicted in WoD also happened in the main universe as well. So far we have a lot of articles pointing to alternate characters (example: Pale orc) when in truth it happened to both the main and alternate characters. There are also cases where there is no distinguishable differences between the main and the alternate characters, such as K'ara or Rukhmar. What are your views on how we should handle this situation? Xporc (talk) 12:09, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
 * My view is that where things are the same, like Rukhmar and the Pale, keep them on the same pages. Otherwise we have two pages that are nearly identical except for the AU one ending in "and then they became a raid boss." I also vouch for merging pages of characters with a version we barely know, like Ga'nar and Romuul, and just having a section devote to AU/MU in biography. In cases where there is an actual difference, like the Warlords or Anzu, then the pages can and should be separated. ReignTG (talk) 12:20, 16 March 2017 (UTC)


 * No. My reasoning is: consistency, infoboxes (two? or a big one, remember the mess in Aedelas' infobox?) and alternate universe categories - would it be correct to have it in it?. With, Ga'nar is a bit longer! :D I also propose to rework the AU pages to the likes of alternate Draka where there is a link to her MU!History for the identical part, so there wouldn't be two same texts. Or maybe someone could point at other wikis about these articles so I can get ideas or be convinced of Reignac's idea. Mordecay (talk) 19:07, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Proposal
So let's take a practical case with Imperator Mar'gok. Should we have: Your opinion? Xporc (talk) 14:25, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Imperator Mar'gok (main universe) and Imperator Mar'gok (alternate universe)
 * Imperator Mar'gok (main universe) and Imperator Mar'gok (alternate universe)
 * Imperator Mar'gok (both characters) and Imperator Mar'gok (tactics) (raid)


 * My opinion is just keep them in one article with sections about both universes, but if they must be separated, Imperator Mar'gok should be the AU since he's the one we interacted with and saw in-game, and have Imperator Mar'gok (main universe) for the one we only heard of in Chronicle. ReignTG (talk) 15:03, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I believe main universe should always have priority for consistency. Plain names = MU, if not then add ('some info here') next to their name. So Imperator Mar'gok is MU and we would have an Imperator Mar'gok (alternate universe). Otherwise if sometimes plain names = MU and other times plain names = AU, it's inconsistent and confusing.
 * However there's still the infobox issue brought up in the other talk page. Not sure how to deal with this if we merge both universes into one page with different sections. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 19:28, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could solve this through a use of tags like and linebreaks? After all, we already have several NPCs with several different timelines in the same infobox, like Dariness the Learned Xporc (talk) 19:43, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
 * In a merged example, yeah, would use and such. ReignTG (talk) 11:40, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

This is starting to get very troublesome. See the Council of Exarchs page: right now all of its links are related to the alternate universe, and yet it apparently existed in the main universe as well. How should we handle this? Xporc (talk) 11:37, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm personally not sure where we should draw the line between a character deserving separate MU/AU pages or not, but in any case I think I agree on normalizing the name formatting for consistency's sake. In other words, all of the main universe character pages just have their main name (Rulkan, Ga'nar, etc.) and their alternate counterparts have "(alternate universe)" (Rulkan (alternate universe), Ga'nar (alternate universe), etc.). -- 13:33, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Definitely agree. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 13:40, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I think we should start an official vote. So far an obvious consensus hasn't been reached and I'm not sure more discussion will help. At least with votes we can see how many people are in favor of each solution. Xporc (talk) 14:48, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
 * By the way, people might want to also take a look at here, we discussed it there too. Xporc (talk) 15:15, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
 * A bit late to the game, but if this is still active, and by Imperator Mar'gok (main universe) it seems it is, I agree with the having all MU pages be the plain names, while AU ones should have (alternate universe). Else, it would be very hard to follow, and in some cases might be decided by unrelated opinions "I believe this AU character was more central to the story than the MU one", i.e. Exarch Maladaar's AU appearance is much more prominent than his MU one, yet I'd still argue that the plain name one should be the MU. Celellach (talk) 15:41, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Bump. So far I have done and validated these:
 * Grand Artificer Romuul / Romuul (alternate universe)
 * Exarch Hataaru / Exarch Hataaru (alternate universe)
 * Exarch Naielle / Exarch Naielle (alternate universe)
 * Rulkan / Rulkan (alternate universe)
 * Imperator Mar'gok / Imperator Mar'gok (alternate universe)
 * Ga'nar / Ga'nar (alternate universe)
 * Hellfire Citadel / Hellfire Citadel (alternate universe)

These ones are not done for various reasons, mainly because there were debates around them:
 * Lithic (main universe) / Lithic

I'm pretty sure there are also other people, like Sethe and Rukhmar, which were folded into a single page for both main and alternate versions. Xporc (talk) 12:35, 18 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Since the MU draenei are already done, I'd love to see MU pages for K'ara, Lithic, arakkoa gods, Kash'drakor, Golka, Golmash & Gorian Empire for consistency and clean infoboxes & links. Where the histories are the same, have a link to MU as was done from the beginning (Draka (alternate universe)). Mordecay (talk) 23:17, 18 August 2017 (UTC)


 * This I feel less concerned about, I merely wanted to enforce consistency between the various already-existing pages. Xporc (talk) 23:21, 18 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Nice job on the moves, btw! Mordecay (talk) 23:26, 18 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks mate! Xporc (talk) 23:31, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Good job, I like that we went for MU without disambiguation and AU with. A comment regarding Hellfire Citadel (Hellfire Peninsula), even if we don't give this the same MU/AU format you just set (which I think we should), at least change the (Hellfire Peninsula) to (main universe) as it makes it sound like they are both locations within the same universe, just different locations. The location disambiguation, in my opinion, should only be used for two locations with the same name in the same universe. Celellach (talk) 08:49, 19 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Alright, I moved Hellfire Citadel (Hellfire Peninsula) to Hellfire Citadel (main universe) even though many pages still point to "(Hellfire Peninsula)". They may be updated later, but first maybe we could have a vote on the alternate universe Hellfire Citadel. I created a Hellfire Citadel (alternate universe) redirect for now... Xporc (talk) 19:08, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Not sure where the vote is, but count my vote for any related discussion, as the reason will always be the same - main universe entries should have no disambiguation while alternate universe entries should get the (alternative universe). My reason is that any other method will require personal opinion or person preference, as in, "The alt universe version is much more notable", when in-fact that might be just one opinion or even just barely more notable. This will also make linking/creating pages much more clear and cause less bad links. Celellach (talk) 22:03, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Case-in-point, Hellfire Citadel (main universe) / Hellfire Citadel is just this. Why is the raid instance from Warlords more notable then the dungeon complex from Burning Crusade? The BC version was a dungeon complex that housed 3 dungeons, a raid boss and other related mobs and quests and was being done throughout the whole expansion. A dungeon complex which is still notable with current content when the BC time-walking event happens. While the Warlords raid was done for a few months at the end of the expansion. Now of course you can argue that the raid was very important lore-wise and the dungeon complex is not the dungeon or the raid page, but just the overall complex, but that is really just trying to force a point. Celellach (talk) 22:08, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be HFC (mu) and HFC (au). -- MyMindWontQuiet 11:07, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Alright it's time to vote and hopefully leave this debate behind us forever. Xporc (talk) 09:17, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Mid-work review
So it's time for another review of the current situation:
 * The "(main universe)" namespace has been squashed entirely, excepted for Hellfire Citadel (main universe), which is currently in vote to be moved simply to Hellfire Citadel, with the current page being in vote to be moved to Hellfire Citadel (alternate universe). The vote will start closing down soon. Don't hesitate to share your side of the issue if you haven't already.
 * Now there are a few characters that are merged in a single page for both main and alternate universes: K'ara, Rukhmar, Lithic, Sethe, Kash'drakor, Pridelord Karash, Golka, Golmash Hellscream, Council of Exarchs, and Gorian Empire. Should we split them or keep them as is, with a bit of cleanup?

Discussions were already had here if you want to see some old opinions about it. What about yours? Xporc (talk) 11:08, 30 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I stand by my opinion on Hellfire Citadel, but in regard to your second point:
 * In the case of organizations like the Exarchs and the Gorian Empire, I propose handling it the way I've done on pages like magnaron, ogron, and botani; simply having one page for both MU and AU that first lists their main universe history in a History section, then including a "Warlords of Draenor" subsection for the events concerning their alternate universe counterparts. So, for example, "The Gorian Empire was founded by Gorgog, bla bla bla, Highmaul was sieged and Mar'gok was killed during the rise of the Old Horde, bla bla bla, but then in the alternate past version of Draenor the Gorians are still around and this time they ally with the Iron Horde, and the events of WoD Nagrand and the Highmaul raid unfold".


 * The same method can probably also be applied to characters like Rukhmar, Sethe, Lithic, Pridelord Karash, and the Exarchs, where the differences between the main and alternate universes are minimal or practically non-existent. So, in Naielle's example, I think it'd be better if we have the page start with "Naielle was the leader of the Rangari and a member of the Council of Exarchs", then the Chronicle Volume 2 info about the creation of the Exarch Council, then a "Warlords of Draenor" section discussing the WoD events about her AU counterpart; basically, treat the page as being mainly about her main universe version, then specifically denoting the information pertaining to her WoD counterpart with tags, "In the alternate universe of Warlords of Draenor ..." and such. Naielle is only mentioned once in all of Chronicle, and the Chronicle backstory almost certainly applies to both MU and AU versions, so in my view it'd be better to combine the two pages. Maybe. This goes for all of the Exarchs, and might also be applied to Mar'gok (admittedly I was probably a bit too hasty in creating an MU Mar'gok page). Othaar/Socrethar is a tricky one, since Chronicle never actually says that Othaar became Socrethar, but it can probably-maybe-sorta be safely assumed that Othaar = Socrethar is true for the MU as well as the AU since MU Socrethar is said to be a former draenei warrior; their transformations might not have happened the same way or at the same time, though.


 * I think, just to pick two examples out of several, Ga'nar and K'ara's fates are sufficiently different from their MU counterparts to warrant separate pages, but in the end it's of course highly subjective for every character if their alternate versions are different enough to warrant MU and AU pages, so it might create a lot of weird inconsistencies. -- 12:19, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The "content length" rule, if the AU version necessites its own page given the amount of information then so be it, if it's simply a couple lines then it can be a subsection of the MU article ? If it's the former there can still be a WoD subsection with a Main Article tag redirect. -- MyMindWontQuiet 15:10, 30 August 2017 (UTC)


 * My opinion (above) is unchanged. Mordecay (talk) 02:38, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Late-work review
Okay, the "(main universe)" namespace should have been squashed entirely. There was also the "(Hellfire Peninsula)" thing for the Hellfire Citadel which has been squashed, but are there more like this? Main universe pages having a regional or expansion tag?

Following the discussion here, should we now squash the "(Outland)" namespace? Aka move the current Category:Shadowmoon Valley quests category to Category:Shadowmoon Valley (alternate universe) quests and change back the current Category:Shadowmoon Valley (Outland) quests to its original namespace. This should be mostly an affair of shuffling around categories, though redirects like Shadowmoon Valley (Outland) would also have to be removed. Xporc (talk) 13:46, 7 September 2017 (UTC)


 * For consistency's sake, I would say so, yes. -- 14:00, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with DeludedTroll. 15:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree. Mordecay (talk) 16:15, 7 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Also, Nagrand and Shadowmoon Valley are affected by the "(Outland)" namespace and should be shuffled around, but what about Auchindoun and Hellfire Citadel? These hubs don't have categories in the main universe, so should their respective categories stay are they are or be changed to "(alternate universe)" even though there's no main universe equivalent? Note that we could also simply CREATE these main universe equivalents... Xporc (talk) 20:17, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Results
So it's time for another review about what was accomplished on this topic.

About namespaces: What this means is that everything MU should now have the priority, and anything AU should have the disambiguation namespace. Hopefully editors won't have to wonder about the relevancy of characters or places anymore to decide what they should do. Now, in your future work, if you see any page with a different naming style (e.g. the old "(Hellfire Peninsula)" namespace for MU Hellfire Citadel) please add a Move tag or signal it!
 * The "(Warlords of Draenor)" namespace for characters and zones has been squashed entirely, this was already done some months ago. Kudos to Mordecay for updating so many Shadowmoon Valley links.
 * The "(Outland)" namespace has been squashed entirely, excepted for some very minor exceptions like Windroc (Outland) and Sargeron (Outland). Not sure there's much point in editing them out.
 * The "(main universe)" namespace has been squashed entirely.
 * The "(alternate universe)" namespace should have been added to all the relevant AU pages (e.g. those with the same base name as their MU counterpart), excepted for the categories of Auchindoun (alternate universe) and Hellfire Citadel (alternate universe). Coobra and Suraf have expressed their desire to keep things as before for them.

Okay, here's a list of templates that may need needed to be updated: As of today, all done. Xporc (talk) 12:11, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Nagrand (alternate universe)
 * Nagrand
 * Nagrand (alternate universe) vignettes
 * Shadowmoon Valley (alternate universe)
 * Shadowmoon Valley
 * Shadowmoon Valley (alternate universe) vignettes
 * Shadowmoon Valley (alternate universe) bonus objectives
 * Auchindoun (alternate universe) mode
 * Hellfire Citadel (alternate universe) Subzones
 * Hellfire Citadel (alternate universe) set

Work left
Moving on to the next topic: there are a few characters and organizations that are merged in a single page for both main and alternate universes: Some of them are tagged with a Split, but all of them are at least tagged with an "alternate universe characters" (or organizations) category. There have been debates here and there but no consensus was reached. I myself can't decide on the better way to handle this, as both sides have their merits. IMO Mac'Aree at least added enough content to ensure that there is no need to merge the MU and AU exarchs into single pages. For races, magnaron, ogron, and botani should already be updated. The pale orcs could maybe use a teeny bit of cleaning, maybe the high arakkoa as well? I don't know.
 * K'ara
 * Rukhmar
 * Lithic
 * Sethe
 * Kash'drakor
 * Pridelord Karash
 * Golka
 * Golmash Hellscream
 * Council of Exarchs
 * Gorian Empire

Here's IMO what we could do now: we should at least update the pages listed above that merge both main and alternate universe characters to make clearer the fact that they represent two different characters in a single page.

With everything said, I'm rather pleased of the work that was accomplished. Once again, it's still a pleasure to work with you guys. All of this happened because of Chronicles Volume 2, I hope Volume 3 will give us less headaches :D Xporc (talk) 09:20, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * All of this was because of the Chronicles Volume 2? You sure made me want to get it sooner now. Cheers for all this work! 09:51, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Well Chronicles 2 certainly decided me that something needed to be done :p Xporc (talk) 18:51, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Not sure Pridelord Karash needs to be split. All of his history is from the MU. Only thing in WoD to deal with him takes place in a "flashback", thus hes not really apart of the alternate timeline. 18:46, 20 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Agreed. The parts we see of him in WoD happened exactly the same way as they would have in the main universe, so it seems needlessly repetitive to have separate pages. -- 18:02, 21 September 2017 (UTC)