Talk:Earthen

Old discussion
"Though the Earthen where around at the time of the War of the Ancients, 10,000 years ago, they did not take part in the war against the Burning Legion."

-Unless I'm missing some key information, this seems very misleading. I'm certain that they fought against the Burning Legion, simply not in a united effort with the Night Elves. If a source proving this exists, please provide it; otherwise I think the wording should be changed to make clear.

--Pure.Wasted 06:50, 30 September 2006 (EDT)


 * The point is conceded. Will be changed to "Though the Earthen were still [around] during the War of the Ancients, they did not coordinate with the Night Elves and Dragons in the battle against the Burning Legion. Though no evidence survives either way, it is very likely that they carried out their own campaign against the Legion.''--Ragestorm 21:38, 30 September 2006 (EDT)

If you read the War of the Ancients Trilogy the Earthen DID help the Night elves.-Milcon

Earthen
Why coudln't they just call them the Dwarves all along. While i was reading the books I kept thinking that the Earthen and Dwarves were a separate race. I know that now so don't go correcting me. =) -- TheOneCalledRed - 2nd of December 06'


 * Check Racial Terminology your question is answered there. As you can see, dwarf is the name given to them by humans.Baggins 16:22, 2 December 2006 (EST)

During the War of the Ancients it was shown that the term 'dwarves' was a derogitory name for them from the Night Elves. Malfurion notes to remember this and remember that the Earthen leader called themselves Earthen.-Milcon


 * Additional accounts given by Brann is that "dwarves", at least the ones that modern clans evolved from locked themselves underground to hide out during the war, and never got involved. So it would seem it was a very small group of Earthen that joined the night elves.Baggins 07:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Or maybe that's from the old timeline? Saimdusan 22:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Probably not, since not even "prime timeline" in Knaack's book was consistent to earlier accounts of the war or later ones, and other sources mention that most dwarves locked themselves away too (including in-game books in World of Warcraft). The most recent books actually still remain pretty consistent to the original accounts printed before War of the Ancients trilogy. If anything its elements of Knaack's second timeline that became more consistent to earlier accounts in some ways. But later accounts tend to stick with the one in the Warcraft III manual, with some elements from Knaacks mentioned.Baggins 06:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's quite possible that the newly re-awakened earthen considered themselves to have devolved, and thus deliberately adopted the derogatory term for themselves as a sign of what they've lost. --Bobson 19:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


 * No. According to new lore, from WotLK (read: http://www.worldofraids.com/forums/showthread.php?p=82675 ), there are 2 Earthens.  The Original Earthen that the old gods cursed with the 'Curse of the Flesh'.  The Titans went back to Azeroth, waged war with the old gods and put to sleep the original Earthen.  Then a Earthen v2 was created with the 'Curse of the Flesh' put in-check or locked-out.  Earthen v2 were the ones who fought in the War of the Ancients.  The Dwarves as we know them today came from the Original Earthen, hence they got flesh. Laibeus Lord (talk) 12:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Secondly, they never called themselves as "Dwarves", when they awoke, they do not have memories of their "original Earthen" days. The Humans, called them Dwarves which they adopted.  It was only later that they understood what it meant.  The Night Elves on the other hand called the Earthen v2 'Dwarves' as well for some unknown reason.  Coz in the first place, "Dwarf" or "Dwarves" is not a Kaldorei language. Laibeus Lord (talk) 12:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * That's base on what the WotLK Beta testers so have shared. And there is not such thing or word or reality as "devolved" or "devolution", it is impossible to happen. Laibeus Lord (talk) 12:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * There is no such words as the words "devolved" and "devolution"? What reality are you from? Sure there are; devolved, and [devolution]...Baggins (talk) 19:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The words exist, but in terms of the theory of evolution they have no meaning. Species have never 'devolved', they just evolve. In wow, however, the concept might actually take place, but I would apply it to dwarves that become earthen and not the other way around. I think that Laibcoms is right about the earthen too. --Richeron [ T | C ] 15:41, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * To branch off of this, as the old Earthen (Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor) are still using the old Dwarf model (with a different skin), would it suit the characters if Blizz maybe changed up the skin or render a little bit differently? The beard for one needs to be more granite-like, as it states on the Earthen page that it's NOT hair but mineral growths. Then again, perhaps these Earthen should stay dwarf-like, as they were affected by the Curse of Flesh (though they'd have devolved into dwarves by then, or perhaps they didn't entirely devolve). Maybe that's the reason the models stay the same. Still, I'd prefer a more lore-appropriate character model, though I don't really mind Blizz's lack of initiative to change what they've already got (but with the release of Cataclysm on its way, I have a small spark of hope). Strof (talk) 15:05, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Fact check
There was originally a fact check for the sentence stating that the Earthen were put to their best use under Jarod Shadowsong. I took this out, because that's the picture "The Sundering" paints. It makes it pretty clear that the other races were initially disorganized and they weren't truly united until Jarod became the commander of their forces. While it might sound like fan opinion, I can confirm that it's not.--Austin P 09:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * A fact check doesn't mean to remove the information, or that the information is questioned, just that a citation needs to be added in for people to look up that information for themselves. However, if something stays under fact check too long it may be removed as not being confirmed.Baggins 20:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Iron Earthen

 * Talk page merged from Iron Earthen.

I am convinced that these Earthen are stone earthen, and not Iron earthen at all. If you compare them with the Iron dwarves, you will notice that the skin looks completely different. Iron dwarves apear to have nails/screws, metalic voices, a smoother skin and runes. 'Iron' earthen have stony skin patterns, no nails/screws and no runes. I suggest that they may be the second generation of Earthen mentioned in the Tribunal of Ages and that the old earthen became the fleshy Ironforge dwarves (along with the Dark Iron and Wildhammer dwarves) and the frost dwarves.

--Richeron [ T | C ] 02:43, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Me too, but they are made of IRON.

http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=29927

It´s a blizzard official information. In the alpha, they had rays, like the iron dwarves, but in 3.0.2 version, the rays were removed... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.
 * His name is "Earthen Ironbane", and does in no way mean that he's an "Iron Earthen". This article was created as speculation and with no citations or references. 13:29, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed. The name Ironbane suggest that he is the Bane of Iron. In other words: "that which courses ruin or woe" to Iron. I've seen nothing to suggest that they really are made of Iron at all. And what are these rays? Are you refering to the runes? --Richeron [ T | C ] 14:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S - The Iron vrykul page is also filled with doubtful speculation. We need a talk page somewhere where we can bring together all the known new Titan lore so we can figure ou exactly what to put in all these related pages. --Richeron [ T | C ] 15:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Iron dwarves are electrical creatures. Ehen they speek, they throw rays from the mouth and hands. In the alpha WOTLK, iron earthen had rays too...But where removed in the 3.0.1 version.

In the picture they look pretty metallic to me. 15:54, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Iniel: Yep, they changed a lot of things from Beta to 3.0.1. Clearly the rays were not suitable for the Earthen. Jormungand01: Why? Because they shine? Well, compare the paterns of the Earthen's and the Iron dwarves' skins and see the difference. Also, the Earthen sometimes refer to the Iron dwarves merely as the 'Irons' which just further suggests that they aren't Iron earthen. As for the metalic shin, it may just mean that the minerals they are made of have such a shin (like hematite). Rocks are made of minerals, and minerals are often made from a metalic ion + a non-metalic ion. I'm 90% sure they cannot be called Iron Earthen. I'm 50% sure they are the second generation of Earthen. --Richeron [ T | C ] 16:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, there's no mention of "Iron Earthen" in any official source. Far from it. When mentioning the war between the Iron Dwarves and the Earthen, NPCs call this a "war between stone (!) and iron". Just because you saw an NPC called "Earthen Ironbane" (who is, and this is obviousl when you think a little bit about it, someone who BANES (kills, destroys) IRON (dwarves)), this doesn't mean the members of this race are "Iron Earthen". Oberscht (talk)

I'm fairly sure they are made of haematite, or whatever the Azerothian equivalent is. If you compare it to an Iron Earthen's skin they appear very similar. And since haematite is one of the most common iron ores they have every right to be called Iron Earthen. However it seems more likely that they are an intermediatary stage in between regular Earthen and Iron Dwarves, as ores are giant ionic structures like any other rock but which can have useful metals extracted from them, much as Iron Dwarves might have been refined from their predecessors. 21:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

They may have the 'right' to be called Iron Earthen (they also have the 'right' to be called Pink Duckling), but they are not part of the 'Iron' faction (in fact, they explicitly mention their enemies as the Irons), and they are never explicitly called Iron Earthen anywhere, so why should we? Wether they are made of an Iron ore, or any other kind of ore isn't really what defines them as part of the Iron group. After all, I don't think we call any Earthen 'Copper' Earthen or 'Mithril' Earthen, even though their existence is very likely. I do agree that Iron Dwarves are most likely derived from these specific Earthen, and I do think that these Earthen are posterior to the Old Earthen, but I still believe that that their proper name remains Earthen (Second Generation). --Richeron [ T | C ] 13:24, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S - Even in WoWModelViewer they are called "earthenwarf" and they present four different skins, which are called Blue (The one on the image), Grey (More neutral grey - Like stone), Ochre (Light brown/yellow) and Red (Dark Brown). I can only assume that the term Iron Earthen is a complete fabrication, until someone presents to us an actual source.--Richeron [ T | C ] 13:29, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

first all most of titans creations were iron like titans. but after they were affected their skin turned into flesh. and there must be reason why they do not use normal model

Titans
 * &#x2502;
 * &#x251C; Iron Vrykul &mdash; Vrykul &mdash; Azotha &mdash; Humans
 * &#x2514; Iron Earthen &mdash;  Iron Dwarves
 * &#x2514;  Earthen &mdash;  Mountain dwarves,  Hill dwarves,  Frost dwarves,  Troggs

makes sense Noobi666 (talk) 15:28, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it does not make sense. Please don't add speculation, as you clearly don't have any references or citations to back up your arguments. 15:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I actually have a source that says that the Earthen were made from Earth, and not metal:

from Lore Keeper of Norgannon:

"So... the Earthen were made out of stone?

''Simply stated, this is correct. "''

Stone != Iron

I'll go farther and speculate that the Northrend Earthen are more recent than the old earthen models because: Most of the old Earthen turned in to flesh from the Curse of Flesh placed on them by the Old Gods. Ergo, they are older, since it was the first batch of earthen that got the worst of the curse (See Tribunal of Ages). This, however, is speculative. Unlike the above quote. Richeron [ T | C ] 15:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S - The Iron Earthen name isn't even good for an unofficial name since it is completely misleading. These Earthen are neither made of metal, nor are they in the Iron faction. The reasons not to call them Iron far outweight any reasons to do the oposite. Richeron [ T | C ] 15:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * They are made of stone as revealed in several quests, they were the earthen who inhabited Ulduar, they were forced out by the iron dwarves, they seem to be made of enchanted stone that is found in a cave in northrend. They had learned to forge with iron but that was because of all the iron that was found in that area. Im going to make a new race page named Ulduar Earthen. They are clearly different in many many ways and deserve a race page (similar to mag'har and broken draenei)-- 21:53, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think the name Ulduar earthen is much more acceptable. But we can still find other alternatives like: Northrend earthen. I'd call them Second Generation Earthen, but that's far too uncertain to use it as a name. Ulduar or Northrend will do well enough. --Richeron [ T | C ] 01:00, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ulduar Earthen has become the accepted name after looking through the information revealed on them. They arent the second generation earthen as all earthen on azeroth are the second generation not just the ones in ulduar. If it was just the Ulduar ones then the ones you fight in the other dungeons would all be dwarfs (or troggs for that matter). Their look has been explained so unless they give them selves a name they are gonna stay with the name Ulduar Earthen (btw its Earthen with a capital E as they are just a different type)-- 00:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Is there name for the model in the game files?Baggins (talk) 23:37, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


 * If you're refering to the Ulduar Earthen, then yes. It's "Earthendwarf". --Richeron [ T | C ] 00:29, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Immune to Curse of Flesh?
What is the source for saying that they are immune to the Curse? Couldn't it just be that they have been around for less time, or that the curse has only affected those that existed before the comming of the old Gods and isn't contagious? Or maybe they were just kept isolated, or something. --Richeron [ T | C ] 12:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * They have to have been made when the Titans were still on Azeroth, which seems to have been about 100,000 years ago. So a few thousand years more or less is negligible when compared to normal Earthen.
 * The Old Gods were already there when the Titans arrived; one of the Pantheon's first acts was to imprison them.
 * If it's a curse keeping something isolated isn't going to protect it, unless the person doing the cursing doesn't know about it.

"The Old Gods were already there when the Titans arrived; one of the Pantheon's first acts was to imprison them."

That can no longer be considered correct: Have you read Tribunal of Ages? It makes it quite clear that the Earthen already existed when the Old Gods arrived. Ergo, the Titans came twice. Before and after. This makes the time-difference between old and new Earthen much more significant.

From Tribunal of Ages:


 * Abedneum says: Designation: Old Gods. Old Gods rendered all systems, including Earthen defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation. This matrix destabilization has been termed the Curse of Flesh. Effects of destabilization increased over time.
 * Brann Bronzebeard says: Old Gods eh? So they zapped the Earthen with this Curse of Flesh. And then what?
 * Kadrak says: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host.

"If it's a curse keeping something isolated isn't going to protect it, unless the person doing the cursing doesn't know about it"

Maybe so. But the time possibility remains.

--Richeron [ T | C ] 12:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * "It makes it quite clear that the Earthen already existed when the Old Gods arrived." I thought the Old Gods have always been on Azeroth. They arrived on Azeroth? Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 13:17, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Most likely, yes. It's very clear from the text that the Titans came twice and imprisoned the Old gods on the second comming. Now, which is more likely: Titans came, didn't notice the Old Gods, created life, went away, found out their work was being damaged by these beings and then came back to remove them OR the Titans came, seeded life and placed the earthen to shape the planet, then they left and a parasitic race of thingies arrived, neutralized the Titan defenses with a curse and took over. Before the Titans notice them they became malignant (And I suspect this is related with the Elementals being largely affiliated with them), and then the Titans returned to retake control.

Now remember that the Titan archives in the quoted article called the Old Gods an 'infection' that 'grew malignant' and the planet was a 'host'. Surely, this contradicts the old notion that the Old Gods were there from the begining as a sort of inherent and non-removable part of the planet.

I think the conclusion is clear.

--Richeron [ T | C ] 13:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * "That can no longer be considered correct: Have you read Tribunal of Ages? It makes it quite clear that the Earthen already existed when the Old Gods arrived."


 * Yes I have. And I can find no mention of the Old Gods arriving.


 * "This makes the time-difference between old and new Earthen much more significant."


 * Not necessarily. It could have been a few months for all we know. Does it mention a specific time?


 * "And I suspect this is related with the Elementals being largely affiliated with them"


 * Not anymore they're not. Mostly they just serve themselves and their Elemental Lords.


 * "an 'infection' that 'grew malignant' and the planet was a 'host'."


 * It could be compared to cancer. It's not something you catch from someone else, it just develops of its own accord getting worse over time. Most people in the early stages don't notice anything, so perhaps when the Titans were there for the first time the Old Gods were nothing of importance. But by the second time the "cancer" had spread to the rest of the "host", so that it was too late to cure and that Azeroth could only be kept "alive" through special treatment.



This is not a small contradiction. Many sources state that the titans came, kicked the elementals' rears, then kicked the Old Gods' rears, and then cleaned up the planet. The Tribunal indeed implies that the Titans arrived before the Old Gods. While 'early stages' is not clarified, there is mention of the planet 'suffering infection' by the parasitic Old Gods. It is possible that the Old Gods just did not attack right as the titans got there, but why wait to start 'facilitating assimilation' of the planet when they already ruled it? Were the old gods too lazy to get around to doing it until there was a critical reason?-- 22:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

"Yes I have. And I can find no mention of the Old Gods arriving."

Sandwichman's answered that already.

"Not necessarily. It could have been a few months for all we know. Does it mention a specific time?"

Maybe, maybe not. It is possible that they are immune, but there are other options (like the curse working like a genetic illness), and from no text can it be deduced that they are (If I'm wrong, then please give me an exact source). Any such text should not be written as a fact, but as a possibility, or as speculation. Just like the possibility (which I suspect is correct) that they are the second generation of earthen. The question of the Titans comming before the Old Gods -is- deduceable from a very recent and very trustworthy dialogue from Tribunal of ages. The mention is not direct, but is deduceable.

"Not anymore they're not. Mostly they just serve themselves and their Elemental Lords."

Fair enough.

"It could be compared to cancer. It's not something you catch from someone else, it just develops of its own accord getting worse over time. Most people in the early stages don't notice anything, so perhaps when the Titans were there for the first time the Old Gods were nothing of importance. But by the second time the "cancer" had spread to the rest of the "host", so that it was too late to cure and that Azeroth could only be kept "alive" through special treatment."

No, no it can't be compared to a cancer, and if that was Blizzard's intention, then they are exceedingly ignorant of basic medicine. Cancers don't infect. Cancer patients aren't hosts. Infection and host refer by definition to an external agent. The only cancer-related term is 'grew malignant', but from that it only follows that it's cancer-like in growth, not in genesis.

--Richeron [ T | C ] 00:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Does it really matter what wording they use? I'm sure Blizzard could've come up with any other such words, and Jormungand would most likely have said the same thing, only with different words. I honestly don't think how you word things is really important; understanding what one means is what is necessary. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 00:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * when i made this article i made it very clear that they are immune to the curse as well as normal earthen that arent from Ulduar, all the earthen you see in game are the second types the titans created and made immune to the curse. Their unique look is not because of their immunity its just because of the earth they were made of in northrend. If their look was the reason then all earthen in game would look like that. (i have edited my post now, this is the part thats not speculation the one below is)

There is one more theory im thinking of, it was said that all earthen had been inflicted with the curse, what i think happened is that the first type of these earthen when they were inflicted had turned into the Iron dwarves and the reason why is because they had been known to be able to forge with iron, when they were inflicted the iron might have fused slightly in them causing them to take the iron-like bodys when the curse fully took hold. this is speculation ofcourse but could be a good reason to why the ulduar earthen and iron dwarves look so similar, plus this has alot of stuff to back it up, i think it should be included to the article under speculation.-- 00:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Have you done the Storm Peaks? I have, and it seems to be me crystal clear that -all- Iron Dwarves/Vrykul/Giants are recent creations that were forged to serve the corrupted Loken. There is even a Fire Giant near Niffleheim forging Iron Giants! And a gigantic one is being built near the Ulduar Earthen settlement. Also, Iron Dwarves/Vrykul/Giants have very visible bolts. They are constructions, not transitions. I simply do not understand how so many people jump to the idea that they are anything else. Please, do take a good look at the quests. Otherwise, I'd be glad to know what stuff you have to back it up.

As for the special earth, it's either speculation, in which case it must be marked as such, or it's something that can be directly deduced from in-game texts, in which case you have to quote sources and the deduction. The same applies to the immunity. If it's speculation, please mark it as such, if it's decution, please explain.

--Richeron [ T | C ] 00:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

"Does it really matter what wording they use? I'm sure Blizzard could've come up with any other such words, and Jormungand would most likely have said the same thing, only with different words. I honestly don't think how you word things is really important; understanding what one means is what is necessary."

This isn't just wording. One thing means one thing, and another means another thing. There may be plenty of twits working at Blizzard, but I don't believe that any of them would be so ignorant of english that they would use infection and host so incorrectly as Jormungand suggests. There's a world of difference between an infection/host situation and a situation that results from internal agents. You don't have to be a doctor to know this. What they mean -is- the fundamental, but the only way we can know what they mean is by knowing what the words they use mean.

--Richeron [ T | C ] 01:02, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The part with the special earth is not speculation im talking about the part with the iron dwarves. the enchanted earth has been stated already. i edited my previous post to tell which is what-- 01:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I know they are made of the enchanted earth, I did the quest.. But how do you know that it's exclusive to Northrend, and how do you know that it's the reason why they look different? How do you know that they aren't different for another reason? Maybe it's because they were made with different plans or different forges. That's what I need to know. How can you deduce that it is necessarily so and not the other ways?

--Richeron [ T | C ] 01:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

ok let me answer that one by one, its exclusive to northrend as stated in the quest where they found it only on that one cliff, Also if it was in other parts of azeroth dont you think miners would have found it already? its pretty hard to not notice it has special propertys as only the Earthen mining pick can harvest it.

They are different due to the earth because all the earthen who arent on northrend look the same, only the northrend ones are different. The earth clearly has something to do with it as if it wasnt the reason then they could use any earth to heal them selves.

Why would the titans bother with making new plans for just one type of earthen, and earthen werent forged... they were created from stone by various means the forge of wills isnt literally a forge like weapons, it creates new life.-- 01:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe the Old Gods waited until the Titans left before they enacted their second plan? If you read the lore, it does say that the Titans fought the Elementals before their battles with the Old Gods, like the Old Gods were trying to keep a low profile. The Titans could have defeated the Elementals and imprisoned them in the Elemental Plane and then left the planet thinking everything was fine. The Old Gods then decided to do things themselves until suddenly the Titans returned and imprisoned them also. Or who knows, maybe the Old Gods are some Titans that stayed during the first visit to Azeroth and went crazy. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 03:08, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

"One thing means one thing, and another means another thing. There may be plenty of twits working at Blizzard, but I don't believe that any of them would be so ignorant of english that they would use infection and host so incorrectly as Jormungand suggests."

They could have just said that to make it sound more sophisticated. Who cares what words they use, so long as it is understandable?

That's exactly what I've been saying! And Richeron, just because one word means another doesn't mean they cannot be used in yet another way.

Example: "What's up?" is commonly used to say hi, not to ask what is in the direction of above.

If people can bend words around to make it so asking what's in the direction of the sky is another way to say hi, I'm not sure why they can't do it for something like this. Hell, I bet if Blizzard had said "gotten ill" instead of "infected" and used something similiar to the word "patient", we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 13:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Exactly, i agree. They are immune to the curse obviously because it SAYS so. They just happened to word it strangely-- 15:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

"because it SAYS so."

Where? Maybe I'm stupid, but I have seen no text that says that they are immune, worded strangely or not. Please give me a link, a quote, a line. Anything! (Also your arguments above are mostly based on game-mechanics.)

As for the Old God discussion: I know very well that scientific words are horribly misused all the time. I cringe everytime, because I can tell when it happens. In this case, they seem to be used reasonably well. In any case, my argument is certainly not based on just these few words. So, I'm going to write a full analysis of the texts and my arguments here: User:Richeron/Old_Gods_and_Titans. You see, unlike certain people, I don't put my ideas in to the actual articles before I've discussed them with other people.

--Richeron [ T | C ] 17:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Read the tribune of ages, it states that all the earthen that are on azeroth are the second gen. Seriously, its really obvious.. just read it.-- 00:34, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Kadrak says: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new Earthen. Safeguards were implemented and protectors were appointed.

And after some other comments...


 * Brann Bronzebeard: This Loken sounds like a nasty character. Glad we don’t have to worry about the likes of him anymore. So if I’m understanding you lads the original Earthen eventually woke up from this statis. And by that time this destabily-whatever had turned them into our brother dwarfs. Or at least dwarf ancestors. Hm?

Straight from the Tribunal of Ages article. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 03:37, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you understand what I want. I completely agree thay they are most likely the second generation. That's not what I'm really arguing about. It's quite possible that they are immune to the curse. But I think we're going to need some more information about their conditions before we go about stating as fact that they are immune. There are plenty of viable and not improbable alternatives to their continued stony nature. For instance, I'm quite convinced of what I described above in User:Richeron/Old_Gods_and_Titans, but you won't see me writing that in articles before it's been discussed and reviewed properly.

--Richeron [ T | C ] 13:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

ok heres your proof for they are immune, Its from the Discs of Norgannon (cant spell it but w/e) After asking what happened to the earthen why did they have matrix-destabilization (curse of flesh) he answers you with their solution to this problem,

"Addendum: Deep earth sculpting was naturally suited to the new matrix design and thus never met the qualifications of duplicating a high-stress environment" That is what the second generation is for, so they wouldnt be turned into dwarves, the earthen were originally supposed to help craft the world after the titans left, the old gods found them turned them with the curse and when the titans came back they made the second version, its explained below.

"Destabilization was not discovered until well into the Earthen's primary service cycle for the Creators. The Creators began work on post-synthesis modification, rather than recall and re-synthesis."

That was because they were aware that the old gods used the curse on them, the reason why the titans only remade the earthen is because they still had a very important purpose, the continued shaping of azeroth, which is why i think that speculation part should be taken out and this explaination should be added in its place. We cant just look to the Tribunal of Ages for answers we need to look to the discs as well, btw this immune to the curse was originally from the normal earthen page i copied and pasted it as it was relavent as well. but theres your answer-- 20:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, very good. You've convinced me. I'm also going to have to think hard about the arrival of the Old Gods problem and the Curse of Flesh since the wording in this text clashes a bit with the wording in the Tribunal and with the general concept of a Curse of Flesh. I had read the Discs texts several times before, but I hadn't really analysed it very well since the expansion came out or compared it with the new data (which I've been collecting in bits since). Thank you for prooving me wrong.

--Richeron [ T | C ] 00:17, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Hold on, I'm coming into the discussion a bit late, but why has everyone assumed the Titans came to Azeroth twice? I think it's more plausible that the Old gods used the curse of flesh while they were imprisoned, as an attempt to escape. The earthen would've been digging deep into the planet as they shaped the continents, puting them very close to where the old gods were imprisoned, and "assimilating" them with the curse of the flesh would've been a very convenient way to free themselves. Sarm3 (talk) 15:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

If that's what happened, then why did the Tribunal of Ages explain things in a non-chornological order, while making it seem chronological?


 * Abedneum says: Designation: Old Gods. Old Gods rendered all systems, including Earthen defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation. This matrix destabilization has been termed the Curse of Flesh. Effects of destabilization increased over time.
 * Brann Bronzebeard says: Old Gods eh? So they zapped the Earthen with this Curse of Flesh. And then what?
 * Kadrak says: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host. 

If the creators created the Earthen, but also arrived after the Earthen were "zapped by the curse of flesh", then it's logical to conclude that they arrived twice.

--Richeron [ T | C ] 16:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

When you say "arrived" i think it's an unreasonable assumption to say the titans had left azeroth competely and then returned, couldn't they simply have been in an area away from where the earthen were at the time? Sarm3 (talk) 17:59, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, if we ignore everything else we know, then yes, it is possible (though I think it's unlikely that the Earthen would be limited to a single location). However, there are several other factors to consider. 1 - The Old Gods are great big things. The Northrend one spreads all over the place. It's quite possible that they grew (the one in Darkshore seems to be reasonably smaller), but they are still rather large. 2 - Our old knowledge tells us that there was a time when the Old Gods ruled Azeroth. I find it doubtful that they would be able to achieve such a situation while the Titans were still around. Mind you, there may have been minor Titans around whom were more easily defeated and who were responsible for calling the other Titans back. 3 - Acording to the Tribunal of Ages, the Old Gods "grew malignant". This means that if they were to destroy the Old Gods, Azeroth would also die off. The word grew implies a certain amount of time, that I find hard to believe would have been enough if the Titans were still around (How long do you imagine it would take them to move from one side of Azeroth to the other? These are inter-planetary demigods we're talking about!)

Obviously, this isn't 100% inquestionable proof. But in the subject of Lore nothing is 100% inquestionable proof (even Blizzard's own words, since they have been known to retcon). I should say that this evidence is enough to raise the probability that what I've said is correct above the probability that it is otherwise.

--Richeron [ T | C ] 18:30, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, perhaps I haven't been clear or misinterpreted the lore, but as I understood it the titans came to Azeroth AFTER the old gods were throughly entrenched and raised elementals such as Ragnaros and Therazane to serve as their armies, that titans eventually passed near early azeroth, and sensing the Old gods and the threat they would pose if they spread to other worlds, decided to destroy them, which after extended conflict subduing the elemental lords they were ultimately unable to do, instead incapacitating them or traping them in some way. Here some of the more recent lore comes into play, which I believe to convey that while the titans were shaping the planet the old gods "cursed" the earthen and other "seed races" in an attempt to free themselves, and the titans in their attempts to remove the old gods once and for all found that they had become attached to Azeroth in some way, preventing them from destroying them (perhaps the inital containment of the Old gods was intended to be temporary?) and the Titans then imprisoned them deep underground, while the titans set the watchers and dragons into play, while the forge of wills created new earthen. Someone please point out if i'm missing something here. Sarm3 (talk) 00:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, that is one possible scenario. However, I find it odd that the Titans would decide to imprison the Old Gods, start the life-process and -then- destroy the Old Gods. All of the information saying that they were here at the begining is old information, or it may be written as by an Azerothian, who of course has limited knowledge. It wouldn't be the first time that old knowledge is updated. So, what does the knew knowledge say exactly? (Comments in bold)


 * Abedneum says: Accessing. In the early stages of its development cycle Azeroth suffered infection by parasitic, necrophotic symbiotes. (Early development cycle can be interpreted as either before the Titans came or after the titans came. It depends on wether we consider the development cycle something triggered by the titans or not)
 * Brann Bronzebeard says: Necro-what? Speak bloody common will ya?
 * Abedneum says: Designation: Old Gods. Old Gods rendered all systems, including Earthen defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation. This matrix destabilization has been termed the Curse of Flesh. Effects of destabilization increased over time. (The curse is deployed to facilitate -assimilation-)
 * Brann Bronzebeard says: Old Gods eh? So they zapped the Earthen with this Curse of Flesh. And then what? (Bronzebeard's words establish a temporal contiuum between the previous point and the next one.)
 * Kadrak says: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host. (So, -then- the Creators arrive. Could it be that this doesn't imply that they had left yet? Possibly.)
 * Brann Bronzebeard says: If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed.
 * Kadrak says: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new Earthen. Safeguards were implemented and protectors were appointed. (This means that the Old Gods were imprisoned(neutralized and contained within the host) AFTER they had already become symbiotic, which seems to contradict your proposal.)

Does this leave you convinced?

--Richeron [ T | C ] 01:30, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd just like to make a few arguments about the order of arrivals on Azeroth. The Tribunal says that the Old Gods infested Azeroth "early in its development." The planet existed before the titans came, all sources agree to that. Some say that the Old Gods were here first and some don't but the world was here and until we hear different there was already life on it and sentient life at that like the Furbolgs, tauren, and the trolls because they have legends of the "coming" of the titans. They could hardly remember the coming of the titans if they didn't precede them. Until we hear that the canon has changed there was highly evolved life on Azeroth prior to the titans arrival.

Long story short before the titans arrived the world already existed and was developing, even if it was not developing yet according to the titans plans. The tribunal says that the makers came to "extirpate symbiotic infection." However this doesn't necessarily mean that they'd been here before. The titans may make a policy of visiting every world infected by Old God contamination to repair damage. While the Tribune talks about the curse of flesh before mentioning the arrival of the makers, it doesn't actually say that's why the titans arrived. To remove the infection sounds less like an attempt to repair existing earthen and more like they arrived to try and remove the Old God infection. The Curse of Flesh may have existed for a long time before the titans arrived, infecting organisms like the trolls and furblogs (potentially. It's unclear exactly how the Old Gods would have gone about assimilating them so the Curse of Flesh might not have been involved). The First Stage earthen may have been blasted with the curse of flesh as part of the Old Gods attempt to fight back against the titans when they first came to Azeroth. Saying that the Creators "arrived" after the introduction of the Curse of Flesh doesn't tell us where they were before that. The Earthen, being a subterranean race may have made first contact with the Old Gods during the Titans initial survey of the world and been afflicted by the Curse before the titans even became aware of their presence. The titans could have simply been elsewhere on the planet working on something when they discovered that their minions had been corrupted and began to war against the Old Gods.

I can't state these facts for sure because we don't know how long a history the Tribunal is referring to. All of the incidents it refers to might have taken centuries or they may have taken place over as short a span as days. It's entirely possible that the Old Gods were still here first and undetected by the titans who began their labors only to discover shortly there after that they'd have to fight for this world.

Food for thought --Darkling235 23:42, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Having attempted to map such events only recently, the tribunal of age's events contridict prior and later lore (ulduar) in WoW itself. It is actually impossible for the titan's to have visited twice, returning to defeat the Old Gods and work around the curse. So i myself have chosen to ignore those exact events until Blizzard get their head round it.
 * I don't see how you arrived at any conclusion other than that of they were here intialy to seed races then return when the Old Gods made themselves apparent. It also shows how things like furbolgs (Tauren myths arn't stated to be titans, just the Earthmother so you're assuming there. Never seen any Troll ones. :S) could have actually existed only for the return and still be possible seed races as they would have seen the second visit (though i've already found this to be impossible due to the above). -- 12:40, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The trolls call them the "travelers" in some of the troll relics you can read around WOW. Calling the furbolgs and others seed races seems like a stretch to me since all the seed races we know of have a very strong rock affinity and don't look much different from humanoids. The titans didn't make any human, animal hybrid races that we know of. --Darkling235 13:43, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Gorlocs, wolvar, dinosaurs... Titans seem to have seeded races through construction methods (ie the material affinities) and more familar methods. -- 13:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Gorlocs and Wolvar are titan created? I haven't seen that lore. I thought murlocs, which likely means gorlocs as well, were supposed to predate the titans. I've never heard that these races were created by titans.--Darkling235 19:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Tribunal doesn't say "early in its development," it says "early stages of its development cycle." "Development cycle" is a direct reference to Lore Keeper of Norgannon's description of the Earthen service cycle for Titans ordering Azeroth after they left (the first time).
 * "the Creators wanted to synthesize a race that would long be an integral part of this world's development cycle after they had departed. This race would be instrumental in fulfilling the Creators' long-term development objectives for Azeroth."
 * "Destabilization was not discovered until well into the Earthen's primary service cycle for the Creators."

The Old Gods "rendered all systems, including Earthen defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation." It was part of their infection process, not that it was them fighting against the Titans. Tribunal says this infection was exactly the reason the Titans came to fight the Old Gods, AFTER the Earthen were zapped with the Curse of Flesh.
 * Brann Bronzebeard yells: Old Gods eh? So they zapped the Earthen with this Curse of Flesh. And then what?
 * Kaddrak yells: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection.

The Titans came, dropped off the Earthen to develop Azeroth, then left. Well into the Earthen's service cycle developing Azeroth in the absence of the Titans, they were afflicted by the Curse of Flesh. AFTER, they were zapped by the Old Gods is when the Titans returned to get rid of the Old Gods and their war occurred. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 04:15, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Earthen dwarf?
What kind of reference is the Wowhead NPC page for the name? 13:04, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Even so, let's change it back to Ulduar Earthen or to Enhanted Earthen or something, this one is too confusing in light of normal Earthen. -- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 14:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe Baggins said something about an NPC being named Earthen Dwarf and the model named that also. I am not sure where the model name came from though since I cannot find it on WoWhead. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 14:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The reasoning is sound, but I find it extremely difficult to believe that "Earthen dwarves" are a subspecies of normal Earthen (also called dwarves). If we were going to start naming our pages after models, we'd move Wretched to "Crack elf."-- Ragestorm (talk &middot; contr) 14:20, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * That would be a funny page name. LOL Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 14:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm.. What do they generaly call themselves? I'm not particularly fond of the name Earthen Dwarf, as I suspect it doesn't say much about how they are distinguished from the other members of the earthen 'family tree'. But at least it's better than Iron Earthen.--Richeron [ T | C ] 16:29, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The point here is Ulduar Earthen is not an official name but was fan speculated to begin with. We do use model names for the sake of when no other official name exists in situations (i.e. flesh titan). At least Earthen dwarf model name is jointly supported by an actual mob in game. If by chance another source down the road releases another official name for this species then it will be moved to that name (ex, "undead beast" moved to "plague-dog"). But until then "earthen dwarf" is a bit more valid than any fan interpreted descriptive term.Baggins (talk) 16:39, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * You make a good point. --Richeron [ T | C ] 20:32, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

In several quests thy refer to them selves as the earthen of ulduar and one quest says to aid the Ulduar earthen, to be honest it sounds much better, and they have been refered to as ulduar earthen in quests, honestly Earthen dwarf sounds really weird. i think we should change it back, i made the name after going through quests, i did my homework.-- 04:34, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Whitedragon, ok then a link to that quest would be beneficial, and should have been cited originally. Having gone through the above discussion no one states where they got the term. In anycase if all three terms have been mentinoned then all three would have to be mentioned in the article since they have all appeared in-game in some form (and not just in model names). In addition if the model ever gets used for anything outside of anything having to do with earthen from Ulduar that would be an issue to take under consideration as well.Baggins (talk) 08:19, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Are you serious, Baggins? If you even look one sentence later, you'll find the references (The Earthen of Ulduar, The Exiles of Ulduar). 12:35, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, if they are refered to as Ulduar Earthen, and they don't apear anywhere else, then Ulduar Earthen seems a fair, and more descriptive name to give them. Earthen Dwarf almost seems either like a redundancy or a contradiction (depending on what the two words are defined as). The only term I object to is Iron Earthen since its only source is a single image by MMOChampion that was released before the game, and it makes it look like they are part of the Iron group, which they most certainly aren't (quite the oposite). --Richeron [ T | C ] 16:20, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Gourra, neither of those two quests say Ulduar earthen, specifically from what I can tell. Earthen from Ulduar, or earthen of Ulduar, sure. But not "Ulduar earthen". Please give me the source where "Ulduar earthen" is used specifically. If I described my background as being a human from california, or a human of california, that doesn't mean you can switch that and describe me as a California human. Also just describing where I come from doesn't necessarrily mean that is my race.Baggins (talk) 20:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * So now people from California is a different race? You're getting way off the point now, Baggins. I'll just move this page to "Earthen of Ulduar" then, since we already have Human of Stormwind. -- 08:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

What are these?
What are these spells Summon Earthen Dwarf and Awaken Earthen Dwarf?Baggins (talk) 21:19, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * There you go again, basing race names on some spell of model name. You're straying off the point. -- 08:10, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Like that one person said before...if we start basing names on spells, models, and other such names, we'll start having crack elves again. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 01:01, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think anyone ever used crack elves as the main page name. But we do use flesh titans which is derived from the model name as an article title.Baggins (talk) 07:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You're comparing the name "crack elf" to the more appropriate "flesh titan"? Clearly you must be out of your mind. -- 07:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If you want to throw out ad hominem, I can do so as well... Clearly you are the imbecile and moron, to think that I compared crack elfs and flesh titans, because crack elf has nothing to do with flesh titan. I didn't compare them at all, just pointing out that we do use model names in certain situations, i.e., fungal monster, slith, nian, arcane titan, demonhunter, Drakeadon, tigon, etc. Bringing up "crack elf" as an example is a reductio ad absurdum.Baggins (talk) 07:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't throw personal insults at me calling me an "imbecile and moron" - you're again trying to compare two different things.
 * Back to the point: you misunderstood what I was trying to say - the names from the models you used as an example does make more sense as there is no other equivalence to them. I admit, though, that demonhunter could use a more appropriate name (such as "Demon form" or "Metamorphosis form"), or be deleted if anything else. -- 08:15, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Why don't you not throw personal insults at me by saying, "Clearly you must be out of your mind"? Hypocrite much? Also comparing "earthen dwarf" to crack elf is a reductio ad absurdum, because unlike crack elfs, "earthen dwarf" does actually appear in game as an npc. I haven't seen any crack elves running around ever. I do agree that demonhunter is a problem page title (edit: hmm looks at who made the demonhunter page, and glares at him). Since demonhunter also alternate spelling to demon hunter, like bloodmage/blood mage, etc. I do like the suggestion of Metamorphosis form, since it would allow for warcraft iii pictures of form as well.Baggins (talk) 17:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * What's your point in "glaring" at me that I suggest that the article I created it could use a rename? Perhaps you don't like to correct yourself, but that's what I do. -- 23:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Guys, it was more of a joke than anything. Sheesh, don't gotta get so uptight over it...

My point is, we shouldn't base article names on model/spell names unless there is absolutely NO other names that they are refered to by in quests/lore. But, we do have names from quests, thus we shouldn't start calling them earthen dwarves.

Earthen dwarf is kinda inaccurate anyways, considering earthen technically ARE dwarves, and thus could be applied to all earthen. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 23:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Earthen dwarf isn't technically innacurate since earthen by itself doesn't mean "dwarf". Dwarf was used to describe earthen but does not in and of itself mean "earthen". To quote Brann, "dwarf" simply means "diminutive", earthen has nothing to do with being "diminutive" but has more to do with the material said creature is made of. If it was innaccurate I doubt the term would have even appeared in-game, as it does, Earthen Dwarf (note I'm not even discussing model name at this point). Unless you argue Blizzard messed up in creating that particular NPC name. All this means is that earthen dwarf appears to be yet another name for the race, alongside Earthen of Uldaur. But only way to really know what Blizzards intent of using the term "earthen dwarf" even single reference would be to somehow ask them about it. But that probably won't happen. I think the issue would only really be an issue if this earthen type starts appearing outside of the contexty of Uldaur, for example in Uldum. In which case "earthen of Uldaur" wouldn't really work as a race name at all. Right now however, the "race" only appears in the context of earthen out of Uldaur. "Earthen of Uldaur" in and of itself is more of a faction description than a racial term. Racial references in quests refer to them simply as "Earthen" I.E. "Earthen from Uldaur", "The Earthen who once inhabited, built, and maintained Ulduar". I can't say I've gone through every quest, but the specific term "Earthen of Uldaur" is only directly made as a specific quest name. In most cases they are just called simply Earthen.Baggins (talk) 04:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Doesn't an "earthen dwarf" race confuse the notion that the dwarves "descended" from the earthen? You have the earthen race(s) and you have the dwarf race(s). Why even have the races earthen and dwarf if there is just going to be an earthen dwarf race? Either they are a kind of earthen or they are a kind of dwarf. I don't see how someone could be part of an earthen dwarf race unless somehow someone had a dwarf parent and an earthen parent if that is even possible. Then they wouldn't even be called an earthen dwarf but something like half-dwarf or half-earthen. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 05:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * They are simply "earthen" (as far as most racial descriptions within the quests). As for the term "earthen dwarf" you'd just have to ask Blizzard what they mean by that term. As its been pointed out the older earthen that most people are used to seeing (well we mainly saw in Uldaman, "earthen of Uldaman"?) have been described as "dwarves" at times as well. In a way you have earthen dwarves, and flesh dwarves, but both could be called dwarves. Basically described by their physical composition. Not saying its necessarily a racial term, but more of a descriptive term for physical composition.


 * As a side note we don't how the "dwarves" in War of the Ancients actually appear.Baggins (talk) 05:15, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Well we sort of do. They described the "leader" of the clans of the "earthen". He sounded sort of like an earthen to me by the description. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 05:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem is they are both earthen. Just sub-races of sorts, an Uldaman-type, and an Uldaur-type so to speak. So yes they are going to sound like "earthen", what do you expect from something made of earth and stone.Baggins (talk) 05:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Why aren't the Uldaman earthen called Uldaman earthen on its title for the article like the "Ulduar earthen"? Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 05:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Earthen of Ulduar
To be honest can we just switch to Ulduar earthen again? We dont call the wildhammer dwarves Dwarves of the Wildhammer clan, or Ironforge Dwarves Dwarves of Ironforge. Also usually in grammer a name such as this should be descripted as What they are/are from (Ulduar) and then what race they are from (Earthen). Earthen of Ulduar is, while technically grammaricly correct, an over descriptive term as Ulduar earthen says the same thing, i think we should just keep it as Ulduar earthen. Because honestly, if we use this then almost all races should have this name scheme, Elves of the Night, Dwarves of Frost, Dwarves of Iron, etc along with Humans of Stormwind, its an over descriptive term, even if it was never used noone ever called the Draenei Exodar Draenei.-- 20:55, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Like YOU said before, several quests refer to them as "Earthen of Ulduar" while only one refers to them as "Ulduar Earthen".

I think that qualifies Earthen of Ulduar more, imho.

Personally though, I really think somebody should just email Blizz about it or something. All this arguing isn't getting us very far. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 01:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Still one source is good enough, Besides why would you use an overdescriptive term for this? Ulduar Earthen, Earthen of Ulduar, same thing except one sounds better and shorter.-- 19:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

How many?
Ok this is getting confusing after reading the info on here. How many races of earthen are there, not including the dwarves? By reading the info on here, I have heard 7 terms so far. Ulduar earthen (immune), Uldaman earthen (not immune), earthen dwarf (don't know), Series One earthen (not immune), Series Two earthen (not immune), Iron earthen (not immune), and then earthen who were like the Uldaman earthen but put in stasis at Ulduar (not immune). Rolandius ( talk  -  contr ) 05:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Those were just guesses most of them are not even real. The earthen are as followed in this time line Earthen (1st series)- After the old gods made the curse of flesh they turned into the first dwarves (Ulduman earthen while are more dwarven like are apparently 2nd series, as they would have been dwarves if not) -Earthen (series 2)- these were made after the titans returned and saw what happened with the curse, deciding instead of killing all of them and starting over (massive GG) they created an immune version, Ulduar earthen (or earthen of ulduar) were different as they were made from different rock so you now have the following: -Earthen -Ulduar Earthen The series 1 earthen eventually became dwarves or troggs due to the curse of flesh. This resulted in: -Wildhammers -Ironforge -Dark iron and -Frostborn. We presume since the similarities that the series 1 ulduar earthen who were cursed became iron dwarves, the ulduar earthen had been apparently known to craft using iron and metals not stone so its probably true. In the end you get these -Earthen (Series one) = Curse effects -Earthen become -Wildhammers -Ironforge -Dark Irons -Frostborn -Troggs (serious defects) -Ulduar earthen (Series one) = Curse effects -Iron dwarves (presumed) -Earthen (Series two) = Titans return to find what has happened and creates these. -Ulduar earthen (Series two) That is all of them Series one earthen do not exist in an uncursed form as they all became various dwarves. The earthen today are the series two, Earthen dwarves was the name change of ulduar earthen when we were debating the name, Iron earthen was a premature name of ulduar earthen as well, early on in beta. Races of earthen WITHOUT dwarves: -Earthen (Series one) - Gone, all evolved this is Ulduman earthen types. -Ulduar Earthen (Series one) - Gone, evolved as well, likely into Iron Dwarves -Earthen (Series two) - Uldman earthen types the earthen we see today not in northrend -Ulduar Earthen (Series two) - name pretty much says it, earthen of ulduar. Thats all of it, not explaining the background, you want that read the coversation in which we stated the history.-- 19:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah I think I sort of get it now. I can't wait until they add Uldum in the future and we see how many more races are found. LOL Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 01:54, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Categories
I think this article has one too many articles. Some seem to be parent categories of others. Rolandius ( talk  -  contr ) 13:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Merge removal
i took off the merge thing because there's no reason stating why it should be merged. This page has enough unique information to keep it seperate. thats like saying merge all the draenei's together.-- 15:49, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, the information was pretty much the same in both articles. Secondly, the second article lacked proper citations and its accuracy was disputed. This is the reason why I have merged the two articles.Baggins (talk) 20:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Goggeroc
It says on the caption for Goggeroc "Earthen (Eastern Kingdoms & Kalimdor)". Looking at the earthen compilation image in the infobox, why do the Southern earthen in-game all look like they went to a barbershop versus the Southern earthen in that image? Are there Southern earthen that look like the ones in that image in-game, because I cannot remember if I saw them. If so, do those skins of the Southern earthen in the image have like subskins too or is hair a whole different effect not connected with skins? Rolandius ( talk  -  contr ) 06:17, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * All southern earthern use the Dwarf model with custom earthern skins. That means they're all forced to have a one of the customisable dwarvern beards. Blizzard opted for the short Dwarf beard as shown in the image (hair style 0, facial feature 8 in WMV).
 * All northern earthern use the new Earthern Dwarf model, with has a specific modeled beard as part of it's model. -- 10:02, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh I see. The southern earthen use the Dwarf model with a variety of earthen skins. The northern earthen use the Earthern Dwarf model with a variety of earthen skins. The southern earthen though have customizable dwarvern beards. Rolandius [[Image:Paladin.gif|25px]] ( talk -  contr ) 02:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I cleaned it
Long disliking this page, I have cleaned it and tried to make the contents closer to the source material. Did I miss, or misinterpret, anything? The speculation section still needs work.-- 20:51, 29 April 2011 (UTC)


 * it needs a better cleaning when it comes to RPG tags, you have things like the Tribunal of ages under a RPG tag...--Ashbear160 (talk) 11:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * No. I will protect this page from your "cleaning". That citation is under an RPG tag once, in a note explaining what agrees and disagrees with a view said in the RPG but also implied elsewhere.-- 14:31, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Relax about that i'm not touching this page. Just criticise it, because this page is not concise on what is canon and what is not. Also the RPG parts in the Sundering Section are unnecessary there are far better canon sources that state the same, like Ironforge - the Awakening of the Dwarves.--Ashbear160 (talk) 14:52, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Which is there.-- 15:57, 22 April 2012 (UTC)´


 * And the RPG is not needed in that part.--Ashbear160 (talk) 17:41, 22 April 2012 (UTC)