Talk:Improved Frostbolt (mage talent)

Coeffecients
I was under the impression that spell damage coefficient reductions were multiplicative (in line with the 5% coefficient penalty for spells with secondary effects) and the coefficient increases from the various empowered talents were additive but applied after any deductions, thus making 5/5 imp and 5/5 emp frostbolt: [0.95 * 0.9 * (3/3.5)] + 0.1 = 83.286% Applying the additive increase before the multiplicative deductions would give us: 0.95 * 0.9 * [(3/3.5) + 0.1] = 81.846%

Is there a definitive answer because I was 100% certain that it was the first option but with the formulae that I'm seeing all over the site (most of which I've already changed and will change back if I need to) have left me second-guessing myself. Chentoka 02:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, those are correct. See Frostbolt. --Sky (t · c · w) 02:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I put the formulas in. I'm pretty confident in what it is, because I went out and tested it myself one day.  I wish we had the math extension, because the formulas are hard to read, so I might have made a mistake. I'll go back and check it. My understanding is that Empowered Frostbolt is added first, then the Improved Frostbolt penalty is multiplied (after the addition). --Piu (?!) 03:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, here's what I found. Add empowered bonus first, then multiply the result by Improved penalty

Unindent for a moment. Let's simplify the base coefficient for frostbolt, (3.0/3.5)*.95 = 0.8142 (81.42%) a pretty well-known quantity from before BC.

Now, apply 5/5 Empowered:

0.8142 + 0.1 = 0.9142  (91.42%)

And applying 5/5 Improved, multiplying after:

(0.8142 + 0.1) * 0.9 = 0.8227 (82.27%)

And for mages that only take Improved:

0.8142 * 0.9 = 0.7327 (73.27%)

This is what my ragged notes say (I'm surprised I can still read em). Some other mages have explored it. Here's one post in great depth on the Mage forums. He did a similar test to mine, and we got the same answer. --Piu (?!) 04:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I see where you might have been confused. The 5% penalty for the snare is applied first, then the additive empowered bonus, then improved penalty.  You have the 5% snare penalty affecting the empowered bonus, which is incorrect.  --Piu (?!) 04:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The coefficient used to be: ( ( 3.0 / 3.5 ) * .95 ) * (1.0 - .02 * points in improved ) + (.02 * points in Empowered ),  now its the same skipping the part about being improved

Already edited the main coefficient page to reflect the 2.3 numbers, going to edit this page now to retain the information for historical purposes. Zaldinar 04:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)