Talk:Maiev Shadowsong/Lore

amWhere is it said she dies? -- The Lightscream


 * In the RPG book: Lands of Conflict -- LemonBaby


 * Debunked, she's alive, see the pictures on her page Elfey


 * Couldn't have happened to a nicer person. Too bad she wasn't instead confined to a small cell for 10 000 years; she's probably wish for death by the end of the first five. -- Illidan Rocks


 * Poor woman, but she was only doing her job (at the beginning anyway, then she became worse than Azshara). Whatever happened to her brother? -- Ragestorm


 * Would you expect a sympathetic comment about Maiev from a user named "Illidan Rocks"?  -- Fandyllic


 * Well even I'll admit that comparing her to Azshara is a bit much, Fandyllic. The thing that irritates me about Maiev is that she doesn't forgive and she doesn't believe people can change for the better.

Let's look at the timeline here, and correct me if I'm wrong about anything. Here's how I understand it: Illidan panics at the idea of never being able to use magic again, loses it, runs to Azshara, resulting in massive bloodshed which could've otherwise been prevented. Adding insult to injury, he makes another Well of Eternity which could help the Burning Legion return to Azeroth. Enraged, Furion locks him under the mountain. For thousands of years.

Now okay, in the real world even murderers have a chance of parole sooner or later. Not so with Illidan. It was just "lock him up forever, throw away the key, never mind how much he suffers or whether or not he's sufficiently atoned for his sins." That appears to have been Maiev's thinking, at least. I'm too compassionate a person to agree with that, myself. I absolutely can't stand Arthas, but I still wouldn't wish 10 000 years of torment on HIM. You know the only person I'd wish that kind of torment on? The kind of person who's sadistic enough to inflict it.

Anyway...back to the timeline. Tyrande springs Illidan, who agrees to help the Night Elves fight the Burning Legion. And he does. OK, he consumes the Skull of Gul'dan along the way, but what's wrong with that? The reason Furion was so angered by this has never really been explained. So Furion tells Illidan to get lost, he complies, and then Kil'jaeden comes along. Kil'jaeden tells Illidan "I can hurt you terribly or give you great power. Destroy the Frozen Throne. If you succeed, you get the power. If not, you get hurt terribly for a very, very long time."

It seemed to me that he didn't really have a choice. On top of that, he was being asked to take out the Lich King...the same Lich King who was calling for the extermination of all humans in Lordaeron just for fun. Wouldn't stopping the Lich King and his pet Arthas be a good idea?

So Illidan acquires the Eye of Sargeras, along the way fighting Maiev and her Watchers and attempting to kill them. Admittedly not his most virtuous moment, but if I were him I'd want to kill them as well.

Then he goes and starts trying to destroy Northrend, but is stopped. The result? The Scourge stays alive (for lack of a more accurate word). Then he finds out that Maiev's lies have resulted in Tyrande being trapped and her life endangered. He helps RESCUE Tyrande. Good for him, are we all in agreement there?

Then he goes to Outland because he knows Kil'jaeden has it in for him. While he's there, he decides to take over. Yes, kind of power-hungry, but when you look at who he's trying to replace (Magtheridon) you have to figure that he's an improvement. He also helps the Draenei.

Then Kil'jaeden finds him again and forces him to try to destroy the Frozen Throne again. He tries, he doesn't get the job done, he almost dies. End timeline.

So, I ask all the haters, where in this timeline after his imprisonment does Illidan do something REALLY evil? I don't see anything. If he does something in the future that's REALLY evil, then I'll change my user name. But until then, I remain convinced he rocks.--Illidan Rocks 22:21, 14 Nov 2005 (EST)


 * Not knowing much lore, and basing my opinion (for now) purely upon this discussion, I'm inclined to agree with IR, for whatever that's worth. Schmidt 00:34, 15 Nov 2005 (EST)


 * Maybe it's just me, but I think warning Azshara about Malfurion and allowing her help the Burning Legion conquer Azeroth counts as pretty damn evil.
 * --Fandyllic 9:28 AM PST 15 November 2005


 * No argument here, Fandyllic. If not evil, certainly reckless and selfish. That being said, it was over 10 000 years ago. If the orcs can have a second chance, and if Medivh can have a second chance, why shouldn't Illidan also get one? And if Maiev was right and he was never going to change his ways or be rehabilitated, then why bother keeping him locked up? Why not just kill him? It would not only be more merciful, it would allow all his guards to return to their homes and to make actual contributions to Night Elf society instead of sitting underground century after century doing squat. Anyway, my question was what he's done since being set free that's on the same level as what he did during and immediately after the War of the Ancients. Now of course I saw the conversation between Malfurion and Keeper Remulos that you added to the Illidan entry, and I'll concede that it's possible he'll wind up doing something really awful if he has indeed completely lost his sanity as Malfurion speculates. Perhaps even as soon as Burning Crusade. But since being let out he's been a force for good as often as, if not more often than, a force for evil. So far, anyway. Look at the list of his enemies: Tichondrius, Maiev, Magtheridon, Arthas. Three of those individuals were pure evil at the time he faced them (Arthas, of course, having started out as a decent guy) and needed to be stopped.
 * --Illidan Rocks 17:23, 15 Nov 2005 (EST)

I know only a little English so that.. although i can understand your comments, it's still difficult for me to...ungh... to express my thoughts, if my English is correct. -_- It's hard for me to get much lore... but in my opinion, Maiev is not to blame... she was only following her path... she was only doing things she thought to be good at the beginning! She is only a victim... of her own character at least... I doubt that my English is correct... i'll be sorry if it isn't...-_- --Sevil 07:45, 26 Nov 2005 (EST)


 * You may or may not be meaning to say "she was a victim of circumstance". (That, anyways, is a common phrase to use when someone does not have power over their situation and could probably fit here.) My problem of not knowing lore is not a matter of language, but of effort. In any case, your words were strung together in a way such that it looks like perfect English, but I do know that you may not have meant to say exactly what you really did say. The only thing that isn't quite perfect (and is obviously not) is that last phrase, "I'll be sorry if it isn't." Normally, you'd say "Sorry if my English isn't very good," as opposed to "I'll be sorry..." Schmidt 00:52, 27 Nov 2005 (EST)

Here's the one thing that kill's Maiev's character: she just walks away when Tyrande is thrown downriver. If not for that one thing, you could still say she was following her duty- though we still don't know how she went from Elune priestess to ruthless jailor. And Illidan Rocks bears a very good point about Illidan's behavior post-Tichondrius: most of it was just trying NOT to get burned to cinders. In order to perk him up, I'll pose this theory: in the Tomb of Sargeras, Illidan says he "remembered" the Tomb and its contents from Gul'dan's memories. What if this new "madness" Furion mentiones to Remulos, isn't Illidan, but Gul'dan's personality from within the Skull manifesting itself? Ragestorm 9:48, 4 Dec 2005 (EST)

Wrote by Illidan roxorz : "OK, he consumes the Skull of Gul'dan along the way, but what's wrong with that" What's wrong with that ? Can't you just imagine that absorb energy and memories from the most evil orc in the universe (and played by Kil'jaeden as well)isn't a proof of evilness ? And obeying to Kil'Jaeden whilst he was maybe the most powerful NE on Azeroth and half-demon without trying to fight up is a proof or cowardice and allegiance to the demonic power ? And do I have to remind you that Illidan has become half-demon ? Illidan allied to Blood Elves, a fundamentally magic sick race but keeping up practicing it just to get more power, and to Nagas, a hated race just woke up to demonic issues. (though I can't understand why the Draenei joined'em).

Post scriptum : This may be out of the main topic of this talk, but for me there are four factions inside the Undead people : First of all, the Burning Legion, led by Sargeras (but without the spirit of Medivh), then his first lieutenant Kil’Jaeden, and then the last living (lack of a more accurate word, somebody said it yet) Dreadlords (the ones led by Mephistroth) and Pit lords. Then, the Forsaken ones, led by Sylvanas Windrunner, allied to Blood Elves (cause of the Horde's updates of the Burning Crusade), saying to Nagas and to Illidan (do you understand where I'm comin'up to ?). Sylvanas' minions are Varimathras (although forced) and Faranell. Third faction : The Scourge, led by a three-at-once entity : the Lich King, Arthas and Ner'zhul, ruling most of the unforsaken Undeads, and Kel'Thuzad, but mostly busy because of the Scarlet Crusade. Last but least : The 3 Nathrezim brothers, including Varimathras in his real mind, Balnazzar and his minions (The Stratholme fortress' mobs) and, who knows, Detheroc, because a Dreadlord is not easily beaten ^^

Here's the one thing that kill's Maiev's character: she just walks away when Tyrande is thrown downriver. If not for that one thing, you could still say she was following her duty- though we still don't know how she went from Elune priestess to ruthless jailor. And Illidan Rocks bears a very good point about Illidan's behavior post-Tichondrius: most of it was just trying NOT to get burned to cinders. In order to perk him up, I'll pose this theory: in the Tomb of Sargeras, Illidan says he "remembered" the Tomb and its contents from Gul'dan's memories. What if this new "madness" Furion mentiones to Remulos, isn't Illidan, but Gul'dan's personality from within the Skull manifesting itself? Ragestorm 9:48, 4 Dec 2005 (EST)


 * *PERK!*


 * Interesting theory...the Skull changed his body, so why not his mind? Similar to how Frostmourne screwed with Arthas' mind, perhaps?  Hopefully Illidan won't sink as low as Arthas, and if he does hopefully he'll have a Grom-like redemption...


 * There are similarities between Arthas taking up Frostmourne and Illidan taking the power of Gul'dan's skull: both did it in order to defeat a hated enemy. Unfortunately, and I have no illusions about this, a difference is that Arthas probably did so more out of good intentions than Illidan did.  Arthas did it because he wanted to get rid of Mal'Ganis, thinking that once Mal'Ganis was gone then the Scourge would fall with him.  Illidan, on the other hand, wanted to be powerful.  He also wanted to defeat the Legion, of course, but his desire for power was a big factor in his decision.  It's understandable, I suppose, that somebody who has been powerless and victimized (like a former prisoner) would want to become powerful so that nobody could harm him ever again.  But nevertheless, if the Skull is having an effect on his sanity then Illidan has his own greed to blame.


 * I've also never been entirely clear on what made Kil'jaeden able to threaten Illidan the way he did. Kil'jaeden hadn't been able to touch anybody else in Azeroth, after all, so why was he able to get to Illidan?  Did consuming the Skull make him vulnerable to Kil'jaeden, the way a dreadlord would be?


 * As for the subject of this entry, I agree with the statement about Maiev walking away from Tyrande. For me it's not as much that she did it as HOW she did it.  If it were somebody else who didn't have a grudge against Tyrande, you could say that they were being pragmatic, that they were working against time and had to choose between spending the next several hours trying to stop their perceived enemy (Illidan and the naga) or searching the river for a needle in a haystack.  But with Maiev, it was clear there was more than pragmatism at work.  She was just like "Oh, look at that.  She fell into the river.  Ah well, too bad.  Let's get outta here."  When Kael tried to go after Tyrande, Maiev stopped him and told him (irritably, as I recall) that he should be fulfilling his part of their bargain instead by helping her against Illidan.  Coming so soon after Maiev's confrontation with Tyrande and her angry declaration that Tyrande deserved to be punished, it didn't look very good.  The capper on the whole thing, of course, was when she lied to Malfurion about what happened.--Illidan Rocks 14:04, 4 Dec 2005 (EST)


 * Response to Kirochi:


 * "Can't you just imagine that absorb energy and memories from the most evil orc in the universe (and played by Kil'Jaeden as well)isn't a proof of evilness ?"


 * I'm sorry, but I don't follow your logic. I'm asking WHY absorbing the power contained in Gul'dan's remains was an evil act by itself.  Illidan captured a weapon an enemy was using against his people and used that weapon against the enemy.  Isn't that what any military leader would do?  I'm not a big fan of war in the real world, but I still know a thing or two about tactics.


 * "And obeying to Kil'Jaeden whilst he was maybe the most powerful NE on Azeroth and half-demon without trying to fight up is a proof or cowardice and allegiance to the demonic power ?"


 * OK, I admit, he's not exactly the bravest person on Azeroth. But being cowardly and being evil are two completely different things.  Plus, do you really think he would stand a chance if he tried to fight Kil'jaeden?  Kil'jaeden was even more powerful than Archimonde, who was hit by a lightning blast from Thrall and acted like he'd only stubbed his toe.  Kil'jaeden had the power to not only kill Illidan, but to torture him for eternity if he wanted to.  So...if you were facing Kil'jaeden, how brave would *you* be?


 * "And do I have to remind you that Illidan has become half-demon ?"


 * So what?


 * "Illidan allied to Blood Elves"


 * I must disagree with you about how "sick" the Blood Elves are. They're addicted to magic just like you or I could become addicted to crack cocaine if we started using it.  You have to take that into account before you judge them.


 * "and to Nagas, a hated race just woke up to demonic issues."


 * Explain to me what makes the entire Naga race so evil. I don't think that the Naga have had any contact with the demons of the Burning Legion for thousands of years.  If they have, I was not aware of it.


 * "(though I can't understand why the Draenei joined'em)."


 * The Draenei joined them because they were fighting the fel orcs and Magtheridon! Magtheridon and his fel orcs had been hunting the Draenei.  You have to admit that Illidan, along with Kael and Vashj, saved the Draenei's lives.  Of course they were grateful.--Illidan Rocks 14:32, 4 Dec 2005 (EST)

Yep, Akama and the Dranei are just repaying a debt. But remember, the Legion isn't the only evil out there; the Old Gods are still chained down there, and they're the ones who created the naga. Glad to see you're perked up- it was the Arthas situation that gave me the idea, plus the clue I mentioned. I'd prefer Illidan to survive, but if he dies just after a final reconciliation with Furion (AFTER Tyrande kicks Vashj's tail) that's OK too. Also, I think Illidan might need a love interest who is interested. --Ragestorm 15:08, 4 Dec 2005 (EST)

First of all, I'd want to apologize about the Draenei : just didn't remember THAT part of Warcraft 3 : the Frozen Throne. Back then, I'll tell you something : Illidan became a half-demon, so what ? So he (barely, I admit it) belongs to the meanest and eldest race of BAD guys representing EVIL trying to permanently DESTROY Azeroth and that should be enough to everybody(though I like Illidan, he's cool but that's not the problem). And for the allegiance to Killie, I still think he could some more craft against him (and don't just come up with bone in mouth and *bark bark* Here am I good dog ready to obey the Devil, and never betray him or otherwise cowardly run away with two entire civilizations and don't mind Outland is inhabited by rests of degenerated people) And else betray the Night ELves (his own race, as Arthas, Ner'zhul, Garithos, Feranall and much other ones did) ! (Ok, he didn't betray them properly but getting allied with the Undead betrays every living creature upon Earth) So, let's see which open-minded answer I'll get this time ^^ (I love debates even when they're not in my native language)

first of all, don't call him "killie", makes him sound like one of them dogs your're trying to avoid. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you just implied that Illidan could potentially take on Kil'jaeden. If that is what you were trying to suggest, I must strongly deter you from that line of thought. Kil'jaeden's powers and cunning surpass those of Archimonde. the only being within either the Nether or the Great Dark more powerful than him are Sargeras, the Titans, and Elune. slight misconcpetion: there are still blood Elves in Quel'Thalas and Azshara's still hiding in Najatar. And just because Illidan consumed the Skull doesn't make him one of the Legion. Yes, he has the hooves of a satyr, the wings of a doomguard and the horns of a Dreadlord, but he doesn't really have their personality anymore- if he did, Tyrande, Vashj and Kael would be pawns, not friends. --Ragestorm 14:22, 4 Dec 2005 (EST)


 * I like debates too, Kirochi, and I'm sorry my French isn't better.


 * I should point out a couple of things. First, Ner'zhul never betrayed the orcs. Ner'zhul began to get involved with the Legion, but changed his mind as soon as he realized what the Legion would do to the orcs if he helped them. That's when Kil'jaeden contacted Gul'dan, who did what Ner'zhul wouldn't.


 * After the Second War and the fighting on Draenor, Ner'zhul tried to escape to another world...but doing this made him vulnerable to Kil'jaeden, and he was captured. Kil'jaeden tortured him terribly, ripping his body to pieces. I wouldn't be surprised if this drove Ner'zhul insane. Ner'zhul only began serving the Legion after they had captured him, tormented him, and imprisoned him in the Frozen Throne. He never had a choice. That's what Kil'jaeden can do to you if you piss him off, and Illidan probably knew this.


 * Second, Illidan never allied with the Undead. The Burning Legion and the Undead Scourge are not the same thing. The Scourge had been the slaves of the Legion during the Third War, the same way the orcs were the pawns of the Legion during the First War and Second War. After the Third War, the Legion had no more control over the Scourge and it was the Lich King, Ner'zhul, who was in charge. It was at this time that Illidan was contacted by Kil'jaeden and told to destroy the Frozen Throne, because Kil'jaeden was angry at Ner'zhul for betraying the Legion, for sending Arthas to tell Illidan about the Skull of Gul'dan, which resulted in Tichondrius being killed. From that point on, Illidan was trying to destroy the Undead. He has never been their ally.


 * Third, it doesn't matter to me whether or not he's part demon. This supposedly evil demon rescued Tyrande and killed the evil Magtheridon. I'll judge him on his actions, not how he looks. He is still a Night Elf, remember.


 * Last, Ragestorm, you say that if Illidan was truly evil that everybody on his side would be pawns instead of friends. One could argue that Kael sort of became a pawn and was manipulated by Vashj into fleeing Azeroth, but otherwise I agree that Illidan treats his lieutenants and soldiers pretty well.--Illidan Rocks 17:07, 5 Dec 2005 (EST)

I completely agree with that statement. Though, absolutely loathing Vashj, I must point out that not once did Illidan say "Vashj, please manipulate Kael and the Blood Elves into being my pawns." I think Kael can be counted as the most recent victim of Azshara's madness. And, Kirochi, I cite the earlier statments in this dicussion: After ten thousand years, Illidan is surely up for some sort of parole. I think it's an interesting research point that Kil'jaeden always acts through pawns (though Gul'dan and Mannoroth were more like rooks) rather than taking action himself. I guess there must be something blocking the physical manifestation of demons to Azeroth. --Ragestorm 19:32, 5 Dec 2005 (EST)


 * Illidan isnt "evil", i dont think. he is insane. and angry. he took the vials to help, he gave up his eyes to fight fire with fire, he absorbed the skull to help, hes attempted to defeat arthas to help. he is an anti-hero. he is attempted to do heroic things by doing some fairly bad things. in his mind, only one of their own can defeat their own. only their power is strong enough to destroy them. and hes partially right, i think. the titans are the way to defeat the legion, who is lead by a titan. my personal guess for the future is a huge war. legion, with sargeras commanding, but not in physical form, archimonde in the emerald dream, and kil'jaedan in physical form, vs the scourge, vs the old gods and aqir, vs us. the moral races, and possibly dragons on our side. illidan will, if he lives, likely play a huge role in this, either defeating arthas, or the helping defeat the legion.--Haddon 00:28, 6 Dec 2005 (EST)

You're probably right about the total war scenario- though it's a bit all encompassing. And I must point out a single flaw in your Illidan argument: though Blizzard materials imply ALL Demon Hunters ritually blind themselves, we have no evidence to suggest that Illidan did this. In fact, the War of the Ancients Trilogy clearly establishes that Sargeras forces the eyes upon Illidan. But seriously, I would love to see that total war thing happen in one of the games. --Ragestorm 19:45, 6 Dec 2005 (EST)


 * Hmm, much as I'd love to see a rematch between Arthas and Illidan (and make it a longer fight this time!), Illidan is going to need another big power boost before he's in the same league as the current incarnation of the Lich King. As imdb.com says on its Frozen Throne page...


 * "The in-game animation between Illidan and Arthas was originally planned to be a video cinematic. Time constraints, however, forced the scene to be done inside the game. The developers have said that their greatest regret about this change is that many assumed Illidan died, when the video would have revealed that Illidan survived to watch Arthas's transformation."


 * Couple that with a quote from this site...


 * "Arthas is not currently in-game in any form, but we have good word from community reps that he 'would own you all'."
 * ...as well as the fact that Illidan and Arthas were pretty evenly matched before he merged with the Lich King, and it seems pretty evident that Arthas is now significantly stronger than Illidan.
 * I just had a nutty idea. What if Illidan and another being also merged in order to combine their strength and become powerful enough to fight the Lich King? And what if that other being was....Malfurion??? How would THAT be for a plot twist? :-) It would certainly be interesting to see a being with both demonic and druidic magic at his disposal, if such a thing is possible in the Warcraft universe.--Illidan Rocks 22:25, 6 Dec 2005 (EST)


 * i said he gave his eyes to help, not blinded himself to help. he knew that sargeras was going to do something to him and when it started im sure he knew WHAT. he allowed it to happen to empower himself, ofr selfish AND selfless means. he figured he could better help that way.
 * Illidan is obviously inferior to Arthas now, and likely nothing more than an annoying gnat to Kil'jaedan. and if hes that weak, he would be nothing to sargeras, and thusly the old gods. we cant really know how strong arthas, the old gods, deathwing, sargeras' true form, the aspects, kiljaedan and others are. even archimonde, if hes still alive in the dream, which i think is quite possible.
 * i wish blizzard would just come out with like a list of what they would all be wow level wise. somehow im betting even arthas is still nothing to sargeras, the old gods and the titans.
 * and ive yet to get any of the rpg books. it actually says that maiev is dead in there? that makes me sad, i wanted to see illidan kill her.--Haddon 04:52, 7 Dec 2005 (EST)


 * Well if it makes you feel any better, the one who kills her IS Illidan as this entry says.


 * I'm sure you're right about the Lich King being much weaker than any Eredar. If we can travel to Outland in Burning Crusade we might see Illidan there, so we'll then know HIS level.


 * Concerning everybody's relative power, my guess is that it works out like this:


 * SARGERAS & TITANS > KIL'JAEDEN > ARCHIMONDE > NEW LICH KING > ILLIDAN


 * As for where the Old Gods or the dragon aspects belong on that table, I have no idea.--Illidan Rocks 18:20, 7 Dec 2005 (EST)

Old Gods would be on par with the Titans, Dragon Aspects (original)=Sargeras, Dragon Aspects (post- War of Ancients)=Archimonde, Dragon Aspects (Current)=Kil'Jaeden. Also, the Demigods would be around Archimonde's level, and Furion and Tyrande combined would be a match for Kil'Daeden (singularly, on Illidan's level.


 * Tyrande: "No, Maiev!"
 * Maiev: "He almost slew my brother!"
 * War of the Ancients book 3: The Sundering by Richard Knaak, page 356

I think here, Knaak has provided us with the origin of Maiev's behavior! Jarod was her only family, and after the War, he was all she had left. Also, Knaak suggests that Maiev was jealous of Tyrande for being appointed High Priestess, which could explain her behavior at the R. Arevass. And in response to those long-ago commments about Illidan having served his time, Illidan's actions in re-creating the Well of Eternity were considered so unforgivable that his sentence was never considered up for commute. This descision was decided upon by the high council of the Night Elf survivors: Jarod Shadowsong, Malfurion Stormrage, Tyrande Whisperwind, Maiev Shadowsong and Dath'Remar Sunstrider, after Illidan destroyed one of their own, Lord Blackforest. --Ragestorm 20:50, 7 Dec 2005 (EST)


 * eredar arent necissarily strong, just some are. many many eredar died in both wars. as a race they are powerful casters, but i doubt much moreso than any mortal race on azeroth.
 * and the dragon aspects are no weaker now, and possibly stronger, than they originally were. oh, and there is no way in HELL tyrande and malfurion could take on kil'jaedan without the power of like the entire planet. if they were almost horribly beaten by archimonde, and it took jaina, thrall, tyrande, all their forces, and a huge amount of energy from the earth to beat him.
 * and somehow i think that illidan, who was almost a match for arthas, is more powerful than his brother now. he absorbed the essence of gul'dan. i think he is far stronger than any mortal on azeroth. arthas no longer being much a mortal in my view.--Haddon 03:07, 8 Dec 2005 (EST)

My point about Tyrande and Malfurion was using their full force. Furion is able (though not often) channel the powers of ALL life on Azeroth against a single target. The drawback, of course, is that he can't do that too often, or risk damaging the planet. Tyrande is especially favored by the Mother Moon. And Jaina and Thrall were needed at Mt. Hyjal because Archimonde had Azgalor, Anethron and Rage Winterchill and an entire army of undead and demons following him. and the Dragon Aspects ARE weaker: Neltharion no longer calls them friend. With him, they could rebind the Old Gods. Without him they could not. And the Aspects were markedly weaker in the last ten thousand year when Malygos was driven mad. Even now, when the four are united, they are not as they were when Neltharion was with them. You examination of the Eredar is probably correct; Archimonde and Kil'jaeden are unusually powerful, even for their race. Gul'dan wasn't remakably powerful- his Skull was a useful chanelling tool for warlock energies- just because those energies were channeled does not mean that Illidan absorbed them. And your're right, he is stronger than any other Azerothian mortal; but Azshara, Tyrande and Malfurion are not techically mortal, either.--Ragestorm 9:05, 8 Dec 2005 (EST)

My Dwarf Priest says : Gruff ! We'll think about that violet blind f*g when Ironforge will stop lagging !


 * thank you Mr Gimlivier. Regrese a su asiento por favor*

WoWWiki clearly say that Naga are evil. Do you know if Illidan will be a Horde's friendly mob ? To Illidan Rocks : look at the discussion in your private profile. I put some interesting stuff there. --Kirochi 13:16, 8 Dec 2005 (EST)

Illidan will NOT be Horde friendly. Despite being formerly allied with the Blood Elves, Illidan has gone insane and will be the boss of the Black Citadel instance on Outland. Sorry, but once the Burning Crusade hits, Illidan's gonna die. =\ --Anticrash 16:11, 8 Dec 2005 (EST)


 * Malygos is no longer crazy, and has his flight back thanks to what happened with war of the ancients, and day of the dragon. remember that alexstrasza is the lifegiver. she can create life.
 * Malfurion isnt the entire planets strength. he called upon all those little wisp buddies to explode, which no doubt left the planet in need of more. i doubt he could do it again so soon.
 * and if tyrande and malfurion couldnt beat archimonde even with the help of the demigods, and for a short while dragons, brox rhonin and krassus and korialstrasz unless they destroyed their portal in, the well, what makes you think they could do it now? or his superior, kil'jaedan?
 * as for illidan being the raid boss of outland, i highly doubt that. he is incredibly powerful, moreso than thrall or magni, and they are the most powerful mobs in the game i beleive. ive yet to see, or hear of, 1 single raid taking out magni or thrall. i think its more likely the black citadel will be more like stratholm. you go partly thru, but never get to the main boss, who is in a different part (as kel'thuzad is, above stratholm). i personally dont even think we could defeat kael, vashj or any of the heros of war 3.
 * oh, and gul'dan was exceptionally strong as a warlock. he was the most powerful one, and thats why sargeras/medivh contacted him. his power, as well as ambition, were what started all of what we are doing now.--Haddon 17:43, 8 Dec 2005 (EST)

I'm sorry, Haddon, my point about the Aspects is that they are technically not complete without Neltharion. I'm fully aware that Malygos is back and that Alextrasza's powers are as great as ever- and I wasn't implying that Malfurion could do that all the time- I was simply pointing out that it was in his power to do so, and I DID say he couldn't do it often (I was also referencing his spell at the end of The Sundering, NOT Reign of Chaos). That's just their combined power level NOW, not then. While you're right about Gul'dan, I must point out that no other orc would have the greed, audacity and power to bring the orcs to Azeroth- Gul'dan was the only choice, and Sargeras/Medivh may well have sensed Kil'jaeden's touch upon him (or Sargeras could have planned the whole thing all along). --Ragestorm 20:10, 8 Dec 2005 (EST)

Sorry, but might i just say that Maiev, when chasing Illidan, was bearing the Shadow Orb? Go look it up in this place. The Shadow Orb was known to drive the bearer to the point of madness to achive a goal. In Gul'dan's case, it was finding the eye of Sargeras. In Maiev's case, she was driven to recapture Illidan. So she wasn't insane by her own accord. It was the Shadow Orb, how was she to know what it would do to her mind? When she picked up the first shard she was suddenly determined to find the other shards rather than just racing through the tomb to find Illidan. Doesn't that say something that it had altered her mind so that she would find the rest and then start hacking away at her, before finding the Orb, quiet strong grip on sanity? Kailex

Oh oh...
This discussion seems to me getting a little heated. As a Members' Advocate i feel it my duty to prevent this from happening... anyway I can help? -- &#8465;ilver&#167;&#8465;ide|undefined 01:26, 9 Dec 2005 (EST)

Maybe that's not my business, but I think it's theirs and that they can solve this problem alone ! ^^ (That's not such violent)--Kirochi 15:25, 9 Dec 2005 (EST)


 * I am merely worried because I received an E-Mail from one of the participants requesting that I end the discussion for the reason that it is rather pointless - the characters will never be in the game, and even if they were and argument based on their powers and the relativity of their powers and such. I do not fully understand the intricacies of the argument, nor who is right or wrong (I know about as much about Warcraft lore as this slug *holds up slug*) - however I understand that such arguments can lead to animosity where there need be none; it is only a game, after all (-:
 * &#8465;ilver&#167;&#8465;ide|undefined 16:16, 9 Dec 2005 (EST)

Well, keep you slug minipet out of that discussion (^-^). Users shouldn't come to animosity and this had to be taken at the spring (where the dispute began ... ask for Moses) Anyway, if this talk becomes too heat, then send it to anybody's talk (either I think that what we've been saying is lore and has to take place here)--Kirochi 17:16, 9 Dec 2005 (EST)


 * Awwww... oh well (*puts away slug*) I think my work here is done - just reminding both parties to be courteous (-:
 * &#8465;ilver&#167;&#8465;ide|undefined 18:04, 9 Dec 2005 (EST)

Possibilities
Seeing as this is the Talk:Maiev Shadowsong/Lore page, and not the Talk:How strong is Illidan, and were his actions good or bad? page, this needs something on-topic.

Maiev has died, we all agree on that. However, from numerous sources, we can make a comparison. Gul'dan died, but his mind remains in Illidan. Medivh was killed in Karazhan, but he came back due to magical resurrection. Cenarius was the victim of murder, yet he remains in the Emerald Dream. It is also interesting to note that the Warden hero summons an Avatar of Vengance that looks like one of their own. Maiev was far too insane and bent on vengance to just die. And since I have never seen any evidence that she was killed (on her page, it said she died alone and unsung, not that she was killed), I believe her body died, but her spirit became a wraith-like Avatar of Vengance capable of existing on its own.


 * If Maiev died, I hope she continues on in some form or another. She was my favorite WCIII character. I know nobody's written anything on here in 2 months, but it's canonical that she's dead? I'm sure there are other things written in Warcraft RPG that shouldn't have been. --Antinate

The novels' lore are never confirmed but so far most of it have influenced or have evidence in WOW. I believe Maiev's death is cannonical. But she'll be back. So far all heroes in WC3's campaign have been given due respect in WOW. I expect to see some evidence of Maiev's current status when we get to explore Outland. --Invin Dranoel 06:37, 19 October 2006 (EDT)

Maiev and Tyrande
I've been playing through WC3 and TFT again (slowly but surely going thru for the 5th or 6th time), and I thought of how similiar the two are, in some respects, at least before Maiev goes utterly insane. Obviously incredibly driven to help, and save those around them. While they took different paths, they started out similiarly enough, and something tells me Maiev and Tyrande have more to do with Furion than was let on. Maiev obviously hated Tyrande for releasing Illidan, but I can't beleive that was all.

Point being, I find it possible, if not likely, to have that play at least partly into a quest or two, or even storyline, in WoW, or even a Warcraft 4. Just somehting I thought of. --Haddon 07:22, 10 June 2006 (EDT)


 * Knaak might have noticed the same thing- in his War of the Ancients trilogy, he establishes that Maiev was a fairly senior priestess who resented Tyrande's quick rise to High Priestess. Maiev is actually elected to act as High Priestess after Tyrande's temporary replacement is killed. Of course, once Tyrande returned to the Night Elves, she returned to her old position. Accepting this as canon, that could be the start of the rivalry, though ten thousand years is a long time to be bitter about something like that. What did you mean by "more to do with Furion"? --Ragestorm 14:37, 10 June 2006 (EDT)


 * Well, aside from their obvious love, Tyrande and Furion are also comrades of 2 huge wars, as well as great friends from growing up(which is something like 200 years, roughly, if i remember for Night Elves to be the age they were in WOTA). Maiev and Furion no doubt fought alongside eachother here and there, and knew eachother, Maiev being a priestess in the same order as Tyrande.
 * Obviously, it's only speculatory, but the fact the Maiev was in a prison, guarding, for 10000 years, while Tyrande was ruling the entire race, and Furion unable to stop Tyrande during her forray into the Barrow Dens to rescue Illidan, I think Maiev may have had something of a love/hate relationship with Furion, which would tie in more to why she hates Tyrande. So much so, she would commit such an atrocity as to allow her to be killed. Were it not for Kael, she would have been.
 * Seeing such unfold would not only give us more background to the sorely lacking background of the Night Elves, and could play a pivitol role in Furion, Illidan, and Tyrande.--Haddon 02:03, 11 June 2006 (EDT)


 * What you're proposing would form an interesting love quadrangle. I think it has merit, and could be a good explaination for Maiev's actions. Accepting WoTA as canon, though, disproves this- Furion didn't even know Jarod had a sister until she showed up with ambitions to replace Tyrande. I tend to think her dislike of Tyrande started there, and grew after the deaths of her watchers. I also don't think she hated Tyrande so completely- for all we know, she could have intended to tell Furion she was still alive after Illidan was taken care of, though that's speculation, mind you. --Ragestorm 07:13, 11 June 2006 (EDT)

On the subject of Jarod, I want to know what happened to him. He was pretty high up in the heirarchy of the Night Elves during the war, and proved himself. His sister became a huge part of the aftermath of the war, as well as a huge part of the Third War. Where did he get to? And where was Maiev when Tyrande attacked? Ive killed everyone in that dungeon, and i certainly didnt see her.--Haddon 06:06, 10 July 2006 (EDT)


 * Sign the post please. Jarod is one of the oddities, and a major reason we don't know whether or not WoTA is canon- of course, he could have been killed in the interevening years. And cut Blizzard some slack- the character of Maiev wasn't yet invented when they wrote and staged "Brothers in Blood." ;-) Anomalies such as that have led me to question Knaak- Maiev's presence in the books is like an afterthought, a nessecity of having Jarod there. But that's for a different talk page... --Ragestorm 16:58, 11 June 2006 (EDT)


 * Actually, he's mentioned in the Encyclopedia on the World of Warcraft Community Site as having disappeared after the War of the Ancients was finished. He simply gathered some things and left, not to be heard of again. I wonder if he'll reappear in connection with his sisters' possible recapture from Outland, if such a thing happens in TBC. I kinda liked Jarod so I hope he returns.--Daughter of Sargeras 23:42, 11 January 2007 (EST)

Maiev dies after the battle of Black Temple, so any "recapture" won't happen: ''Maiev: He is right. I feel nothing. I am...nothing.'' Farewell...champions.
 * Wait, she dies? i thought she just disapeared.Xlel 13:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Maiev Shadowsong, iritating?
She's the most ANNOYING character in Warcraft. If Illidan is to lock her in a cell for well over 10,000 years, could he please muzzle her?

Time has proven
Time has proven that maiev was right in keeping illidan in his cell. first he condemmned the worl to bee a target for deamons creating the new well, then jailed and maiev as his jailer (thing that malfurion asked her to do) then was free, absorved demon power (hello??), he fled to outland and become one of the big badies, with hordes of deamons and crazy blood elves and allied with kil jaeden, so she was right, illidan is a mo**er f*****r. Yes, time prove her right.

You might like to think about the motivation behind those things. He created a new Well because he predicted that the Burning Legion would return, and he wanted to give the night elves the chance to protect themselves. If it wasn't for that Nordrassil wold never have grown, meaning Archimonde would never be defeated and he would probably have gone on to destroy all life on Azeroth. When he was released his prediction had come true, so he absorbed demonic power in order to fight to protect his people. He didn't really have a choice about helping Kil'Jaeden, because it was a sort of "do as i say or die" scenario. In any case doing what Kil'Jaeden said would mean destroying the Lich King, which could only be a good thing. When he fled to Outland he overthrew Magtheridon, bringing relative peace to Outland. Since then he hasn't tried to interfere with the other races - much. He allied with the blood elves because they were in a similar position to himself - deprived of their magic and exiled by their former allies - so it was only natural he would sympathise with them. Apart from a short time during the War of the Ancients he has never caused the native races of Azeroth any harm, and that one time was only because he was driven mad by Xavius.