Template talk:Warrior artifact and class hall

So I want to nip this in the bud before it bleeds over to the other existing class templates for the 7.0 artifact acquisition and campaigns. (If you're curious, you can look in my sandbox since I won't be overhauling it anytime soon.)

I started last year on a project of my own to populate all the class campaign quest chains that were added in 7.0. I originally created the quest chains under "7.0 campaign", but a few months later migrated to the already existing templates " artifact and class hall" since it was what Dark T Zeratul did to a couple of my 7.0 templates.
 * Background

The templates were created/modified specifically for the 7.0 portion only since the artifact and initial class story are tied into each other. The patch 7.1.5 quests involved in unlocking the Broken Shore missions didn't need a template (there were only 2 quests), and the patch 7.2.0 quests already have their own templates (nearly all of which were also done by me).
 * Purpose

Celellach has been significantly changing the warrior template to encompass the entirety of the warrior campaign and moving pages under at-best misguided reasoning.
 * The Issue

Setting aside my personal irritation, expanding and renaming the template is in poor style. The class artifact and class hall template was already lengthy enough, but now it's bloated. If an in-depth perspective is desired, all of the " Campaign" name spaces currently are red-link. I would encourage those pages to be filled out with the story of the Legion class campaigns and a list of all the related quests, since a quest chain template is not suitable.

So until this is dealt with, I would specifically ask others that have been cleaning up Celellach's left-behind messes (like MyMindWontQuiet) to not tag anything for deletion. -- Alayea (talk / contrib) 22:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * What's Next


 * I would be in favor of having everything inside one " Campaign" template (I was the one that included the 7.2 campaign into the first one since there was a new 7.1.5 made and it felt silly to have 3-quests long template). I don't really see an issue with that and it's easier to use (editor) / to navigate (reader). Caellelach had to use 3 different templates to write the Quests part of the Skyhold article. I'm not really sure why they should be separated, specially since it's one campaign. I don't have an opinion on missions but I don't mind them being there too either.
 * If it's really to big for your taste, would using columns work, like for other quest templates? Edit : here's how it'd look like : User:MyMindWontQuiet/Sandbox2
 * On the other hand it also depends on how they will handle things in the future. If 7.3 and beyond bring long class campaigns (which seems unlikely now after the Q&A) too it will become an issue and I'd prefer two templates for one : 7.0 / 7.1.5 and 7.2 / 7.3. Which means starting to separate them now would be better. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 22:52, 7 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm not necessarily saying it's something I agree with, but here's my feedback on it:


 * Class hall missions should not be included. They're already mentioned either in the objectives or notes sections on the related quest page, which itself is already included in the list. Just plain redundant. (I said as much when I removed them the first time around, but Celellach reverted my change.)


 * Some of the optional 110 quests should not be included either. Although they may share a category, they aren't relevant to the actual campaign itself. IE) quest that automatically appears just for reaching 110 and those that are unlocked through researching order traits


 * The level 102 quests I'm more ambivalent towards, but I don't see much point to including them given how the level 98 section is arranged. -- Alayea (talk / contrib) 23:52, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
 * This is interesting, however I would be biased here because the class campaign articles I've been writing are based on those templates and I wasn't aware they were missing quests. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 01:00, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * First of all Alayea, I'd appreciate an apology for falsely blaming me for "left-behind messes" or merging the templates. As MyMindWontQuiet's stated, he was the one that merged them, I just changed the final name, which means, I did not break anything, and as can be seen from my edit history, I was also fixing some of them last night. Regarding your actual points -
 * As I stated before, Missions != Quests. Most of the time they are not named the same, they have different objectives and most importantly, they will get lost in time if not preserved in the template.
 * Regarding those 4 level 100 optional quests, you -could- remove them, but you're making an awfully big fuss about -4- quests, that to be frankly, would also get lost if not in the template. I had to waste hours just to find out what quests are missing and how they are obtained (and I played a warrior). Also, they are part of the campaign in my opinion.
 * While you can argue if the previous quests are part of the campaign or not, the level 102 quests are definitely part of the campaign. The fact that they don't even have a quest on the wiki is a further proof of the fact that if you remove them from the template, they'd get lost. Celellach (talk) 08:51, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * As a side note, your original template name "7.0 campaign" made much more sense than the one moved to "Warrior artifact and class hall". Celellach (talk) 09:01, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * There is no reason that anything should have to be linked in the template for the sole reason that it would "get lost" otherwise. This template (and others like it) are meant to be a quick way to navigate between quests in the chain, not the primary means of displaying the chain. Regarding your specific examples:
 * Missions are not quests, they are quest objectives, and so shouldn't be in the quest chain template. They should be easily found by looking at the quests for which they are tied, and properly listed in the proper categories for Warrior missions.
 * I'm rather less firm on the matter of optional quests, though I'm inclined to leave them out and only list the required quests in the template. The rest can be noted on the pages of the quests that unlock them and, as with the missions, should be added to the proper categories for Warrior quests. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 09:33, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Missions are not quests, we agree on that, but they are not quest objectives in the sense of "Kill x demons". Look at the DH quest chain - Rise, Champions's quest objective is to recruit 2 champions, yet right below them, both quests are listed. In your reasoning, since they are a quest objectives, they should not be listed, yet I'd want to believe that even you would want these quests to stay. My "get lost" reasoning, was not the sole point in leaving any of the quests, but rather another advantage of them staying. The main point of reasoning (for missions and optional) is that they are part of the class campaign, be it Main-story driven (which includes Missions), side-quest (such as 2nd and 3rd artifact weapons, which the story can go on without), or optional (which also include some of the champion recruit missions). Saying one type would have to be removed, by your reasoning, should cause the other quests of their type to be removed as well. Else you are just cherry picking the quests you don't like in the template. Celellach (talk) 10:37, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Recruiting the champions takes the form of quests, hence why they're listed. There's no "cherry picking the quests I don't like" here; it's a matter of which quests are a required part of the chain and which are optional quests that are unlocked as you progress. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 17:27, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Is there a particular reason we don't want everything (missions, optional quests...) in one template? Because I don't thing the readers would be bothered at all if it's too big to your taste, on the contrary it'd make life for them easier having everything in one place instead of searching separately all the quests that were not included, plus surely they are used to it by now given that there are quite a few other quest chain templates that are quite big. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 15:16, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Breaking
Would it be okay to put it into columns so it isn't that long? --Mordecay (talk) 16:27, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Would be fine by me. We've done that for other long questlines. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 21:35, 12 May 2017 (UTC)