Talk:Dire orc

Model Name
Isn't the name a Model name?--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:29, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe. Why? [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 01:38, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually i need a confirmation so i can make it much like other articles named this way.--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:41, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * If something has no official name, and is using a model name as a placeholder, then it needs a better name, but only when a better one is found. Please don't mess up anything.-- 01:45, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm referring to applying the Flesh titan here, if it's indeed a model name.--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay. Any page with that note can be tagged.-- 01:48, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I assume so as long as they also have the Name section to explain why it's named that way.--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:54, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * So anybody knows if this name is a model name?--Ashbear160 (talk) 10:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I believe it was made out of "orc" and "dire troll"
 * 10:51, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * What?--Ashbear160 (talk) 11:09, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * It came from the fact it was a dire troll but with orcish features not a troll's. [[Image:inv_helmet_44.png|22px]]  (talk contribs) 22:24, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The model name is "felorcdire". Their skin can be red or three shades of green.-- 00:28, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Hm do you think i can justify calling it Dire Orc due to model name because the red skin was made first?(it would have a peculation tag of course.)--Ashbear160 (talk) 17:15, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The page is fine where it is for now.-- 19:10, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Again it's about applying the Flesh titan section here not changing the name...--Ashbear160 (talk) 21:12, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Berserker
After completing Altar Altercation, I wonder if Orc Berserker might be a better name for this page, since it's a term that's actually used in-game whereas Dire Orc is merely the model name. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 17:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "Berserker" definitely seems to be the more official name. Only concern is that "dire orc" has become common nomenclature and is used on many pages (both linked and non-linked). --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 18:39, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Infested behemoths & etc
It's pretty obvious now that dire orcs are all created either through some form of magic or externally mutated by some form of flora; in both Gorgrond and Tanaan Jungle dire orcs are created by mutating orcs with mushrooms. So I was thinking, the large infested behemoths, they're heavily mutated orcs and are more massive than normal orcs and even other infested orcs. Which.. seems to me that they are indeed dire orcs. They may not share the usual model but they literally fill every other criteria. Heavily mutated (by flora, similar to mushrooms) and more massive than usual.

So, I think we should add the infested behemoths to the dire orc page. Might just be me though. Thoughts? – WarGodZajru (talk) 18:29, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I think that's pretty speculative. That's a possibility, sure, but I think it's just as likely (if not more) that they're simply subject to more advanced infestations that are stretching and warping their bodies into larger dimensions. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:31, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I get your point but what you describe is exactly what happens to other dire orcs. Especially those mutated by mushrooms, exact same process and result. Infested behemoths just don't share the dire orc model, it's literally the only difference, lel. – WarGodZajru (talk) 18:38, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * It could go into the speculation section. --Mordecay (talk) 18:39, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Worthy of speculation IMO, but don't believe they need to be listed as dire orcs. Xporc (talk) 18:43, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Personally I feel there's enough "facts" to tell they're dire orcs just with different in-game models but sure, can toss them into the speculation section. – WarGodZajru (talk) 18:49, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Being partially replaced by fungus is in no way "the same process and result" as using blood magic to create a dire orc, unless you think the only result that matters is "bigger orc." -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 19:14, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * What I'm saying is, the end result is all a mutated orc in one way or another. Big, mutated orcs all seem to classify as "dire orcs." The only reason infested behemoths aren't on there is because they don't have a dire orc model like pale dire orcs (however those came to be), mushroom dire orcs and so on. Mushroom-mutated orcs probably look way different in lore than their in-game model but it's still the same principle. Mushrooms and flora would probably yield a more similar mutated look than blood magic and mushrooms or blood magic and flora. – WarGodZajru (talk) 19:23, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Hmm no the reason is that on one hand you have orcs hulked by blood magic, on the other you have mind-controlled orcs infested with fungi and flora. -- MyMindWontQuiet 20:46, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * So are you saying that some of the infested are notably larger and "could" theoretically be both dire and infested, or that all "large" infested should be considdered dire because they are large and warped? I might be asking a dumb question here, but I'm not quite sure of the point you are making. Could you provide an example? You mention the "infested behemoth". The screenshot of the infested behemoth on wowhead has no other characters for scale so it's hard to really tell if it's actually larger than other infested. I'm not so sure they actually have that much in common with dire orcs apart from size. If they are "plantified" wouldn't the logic stand that early infested have simply grown larger due to their plant features? To me it seems the infested are part of a hivemind of sort. Apart from size I don't see much in common between the two. That's not to say that I couldn't imagine an infested dire orc, but I don't think it would be a general thing. PeterWind (talk) 22:10, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm going with the lore we have so far about what results in dire orcs. Considering the Botani's ways of corrupting orcs into infested is similar to how mushrooms mutate orcs into... dire mushroom orcs (both mushrooms and Botani take over the host with the use of spores), then yes, the larger, more mutated abominations by all means classify as dire orcs. Does this mean that in time, all infested orcs that mutate more and more into these abominable brutes will wind up as dire orcs? Yes, eventually. And the "plantcorruptedmodel" is larger in general than the standard infested orc, some larger than others like the two named ones. I'm not saying only the "infested behemoth" NPC is a dire orc, I'm saying all NPCs that use the "plantcorruptedmodel" should be classified as dire orcs as that is what they are when compared to how other dire orcs came to be, namely the mushroom orcs.
 * Had the infested brutes used slightly modified dire orc models then there would be no questions asked even if the lore was the same. – WarGodZajru (talk) 22:21, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * That last bit isn't an argument; you're saying that if they hypothetically had a different model then you would be right, except they don't have that model so it's a hypothetical claim that doesn't help you. It actually hurts your argument, in fact, because they're already unique models so they could have made them look like dire orcs if that was the intention. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:32, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Actually, rereading this, I think I see the problem. Dire orcs are not "mushroom orcs". Dire orcs are the result of blood magic, usually done by the Bleeding Hollow clan. There is absolutely no relation with orcs that have been taken over and infested by the myriad flora of Draenor. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:37, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * They may not have the dire orc model outright that doesn't mean they at least have some similarities. Such as larger size, broader arms, shoulders, etc. Then lore points towards them being created in a very similar way and "dire orcs" is a very broad term that encompass several different ways of creation. Magic, from blood to fel to sha to elemental ascension magic to mushroom spores and plant spores. They may have a different model but they still go through a similar process. And it's the process I feel should define if they should be classified as dire orcs or not. Not saying I'm not wrong it's just that it makes sense all things considered.
 * Not all dire orcs listed are the result of blood magic, Malkorok became a dire orc because of sha, others became dire orcs because of fel, Lava Guard Gordoth was a failed experiment to turn him into an ascendant but he instead became a dire orc. Orcs sniffing bad mushroom spores turn them into dire orcs so why does not orcs being infested with plant spores count? All of those examples mutate orcs into bigger, monstrous abominations. I've been doing a lot of research on dire orcs as of late, idk why lmao. – WarGodZajru (talk) 22:44, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * But clearly bloodmagic is the "norm". We already have the "infested" name. So there are two examples, of infested orcs being slightly bigger than other infested orcs, but nothing apart from the size to link them to the "dire orc" name? I mean sure they could be, but the way I see it, we don't really have anything to point in that direction. PeterWind (talk) 22:52, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * "Orcs sniffing bad mushroom spores turn them into dire orcs so why does not orcs being infested with plant spores count?" Regardless of whether the infested were created by the botani or the zangar encroachment, they're not dire orcs. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:25, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * That's the thing though, they are dire orcs with everything we know about dire orcs. "Dire orcs" refer to mutated orcs, "dire orc" is not even confirmed to be their actual name. But right now, "dire orcs" are all mutated orcs, mutated through blood magic, sha, elemental magic, void, mushrooms, flora, whatever. They're all hulking, mutated orcs, making them "dire orcs". So is suddenly every "dire orc" not caused by blood magic no longer a "dire orc"? What about Malkorok? What about Lava Guard Gordoth? What about Gorg the Host? What about Grelkor? None of these were made into "dire orcs" by blood magic but are indeed mutated, hulking orcs. Are they suddenly something else? If so, what are they? Would be nice to know. – WarGodZajru (talk) 23:40, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Unless I've missed some, these are the three infested screenshots we have at the moment: File:Acanthus.jpg, File:Dulhu.jpg and File:Infested Orc.jpg. To me they are just various stages of infested orcs. You say dire orc is not the actual name, I don't know enough about the source material to contest that, but I don't see why then, you would want to apply the name to more orcs that have no direct links to the ones first going by that name apart from "large and mutated". Sure the term might not be perfect as it is, what with how many different "dire orcs" exist by now, but I just can't see how that would make the infested fall under that name. PeterWind (talk) 02:12, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
 * At the end of the day, the dire orcs are still orcs. I'm not sure the same can be said for the infested. PeterWind (talk) 07:00, 3 November 2017 (UTC)