Wowpedia talk:Village pump/Archive24

When adding Patch 2.4 stuff, please...
I've noticed helpful people adding Patch 2.4 stuff, but leaving out some important info. Please don't leave the elinks id blank, if you can help it. Also, please note somewhere in the article (I prefer a "Patch Changes" section at the end) that the item/NPC/quest is new in Patch 2.4. Eventually when the patch goes live the stub/2.4 will get removed or replaced with a more generic stub, so the info that it was from Patch 2.4 might get lost. We should have done this por patch 2.3 and earlier, but better late than never. Also, please use stub/2.4 at the top of the article. -- Fandyllic  (talk · contr) 2:33 PM PST 18 Feb 2008


 * Just don't forget the WP:MOS: "Patch changes", "External links". -- k _d3 22:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * And that "External links" are always to be last on a page. --Sky (t | c | w) 22:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * And its Category:Quest givers (preferably Category: quest givers) not Category:Quest Givers. 23:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, okay, but what I said still stands. Don't put empty elinks and add info that the content is new in Patch 2.4. I will comply with the will of the horde, but I will remind you that WP:MOS is a guideline. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 4:45 PM PST 18 Feb 2008


 * Guidelines should be followed in all but the rarest of instances. --Sky (t | c | w) 01:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, just because it is a guideline doesn't really give a reason not to follow it... -- 17:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

And it's piggy in the middle time from me. Don't make me separate you two. ;) Perhaps we should be doing Category:World of Warcraft patch 2.4.0 style categories? The MOS is a guideline because we don't ban people for not following it. Gentle soothing advice works better. Reason why elinks should always be at the end is for consistency, so users know where to expect stuff. Remember some users do not visit IRC, which is their choice, and thus may not know about all the (policy-related) changes done by bots. 17:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Category Help/DM Loot up for Inspection
With the suggestion that Jiyambi had for loot pages (to follow the Karazhan loot page, I ended up making one for Dire Maul since it really didn't have one. At least not one that I could find.  So that's up for criticism and what not before I go further.  == Dire Maul loot ==  As for categories that it should belong to, they're automatically generated?  And will eventually show itself at the bottom of the page without me having to do anything?  Or is there a process I should be following?  -- Innocentlysassy 03:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Added a category. Makes think there should be another category, for such loot pages. --Sky (t | c | w) 06:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Woot! Thanks.  Was wondering how to get a ToC in there, and all the mob pages I was referencing didn't have an example command for me to use. -- Innocentlysassy 09:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I added a bit to the description at the beginning and also removed the raid template, since DM isn't a raid. The article looks quite nice to me, thanks very much for making it :) -- 19:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Nice page, Innocent. I like that layout a lot... --Azaram 02:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah I noticed that it was a raid template after I was done. Shrugged and figured if it mattered someone would remove it.  ;)  It was just there when I was following the other page.  Went looking for one like that for normal instances, but alas there was none.  =(  At least not a small one like that.  The only other one I found was for the bottom of the page that had every single instance.  Perhaps I might consider it.  *shrugs*  Or if I ever learn to make templates, make my own for the loot.  We'll see.  =D  Thanks for the input!  -- Innocentlysassy 06:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. ;)  Credit for said layout should go to whoever made the Karazhan loot page.  It was a great idea.  -- Innocentlysassy 20:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, it occurs to me that this page (and others if they are made) should definitely be put in the instance navigation template for that particular instance. I will try it out for Dire Maul (the nav probably need to be updated anyway, that's another project atm) and see how it goes, and then you can use it as an example in the futre. -- 07:17, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * EDIT: After investigating the Dire Maul article, it looks like the navigation needs to be revamped and many of the boss pages need their npcboxes made. This may take some time >_< -- 07:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Aye, it's been trickling down. What did you have in mind for the loot article, exactly? --Sky (t | c | w) 07:26, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure what you're referring to, but I'm sure I'll learn eventually. I'm finding I like using templates.  ;) Also Stratholme loot made if anyone wants to smack it around a bit. -- Innocentlysassy 20:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ensure that you're categorizing properly. Have a look around for Stratholme category, or a Stratholme items category. --Sky (t | c | w) 22:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I know it exists (Category:Stratholme_items). But like I said earlier, I'm not sure how to get the page onto it.  It's edit has all of 2 lines.  =/  Heh, and apparently I don't know how to make it show up as a link here.  Could you perhaps link me a page on editing a Category or what to do after a page to make Categories happen?  -- Innocentlysassy 23:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Just add to the bottom of the loot page - it doesn't link because it's a category. It will then be automatically entered into the category. To make a link to a category you need to type Category:Stratholme items .  BTW, the Dire Maul navigation has been updated but I can't really add it to the loot page because of the new way the nav is set up. Any ideas for how to deal with this? -- 03:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Undenting (and rethreading for correct times): Yes, that's the way such loot pages should be done. Um... also, if they do have a specific category for items from that instance, it should be categorized as, so that the loot list will appear at the top of the category. If there isn't a specific category yet (which there should be by now, for most instances, by WP:ZCP), then just leave it in the general list as (t | c | w) 03:58, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I set up the navigation box for the Dire Maul loot page. Unfortunately the way I set it up, it only works with the instances that have had their navigations revamped. Essentially, Innocent, if you try it that way and it looks funky, just change it to and it should work out. Alternatively, I can just swing by and add the nav to the loot pages you do, if that seems too complicated. -- 04:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * One thing that's missing is a section on Tribute runs. I'm pretty sure that has it's own page somewhere, so linking that would be good, or adding the items to the page would be good also. --Sky (t | c | w) 04:29, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Dire_Maul_Tribute_Run? --Eirik Ratcatcher 19:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reminding me, Sky. It's been a couple years since I've done a tribute run.  =D  I'll try to get that up later today.  And Jiyambi, I put the nav box at the top of the Strath page... but, as there is no T:Stratholme... it's currently empty.  Shall I just leave them off for the time being until it gets made? I'd make one... but not knowing how is a big barrier.  =D  Baby steps, ya know? -- Innocentlysassy 04:44, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know who, but someone split it into Scarlet Strath and Undead Strath. I don't know the exact names of the templates, however, so you'll have to go peck at the various bosses. --Sky (t | c | w) 05:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Found them, it's up. Not labeled undead/scarlet without a header, so with exception of a space, lines up nicely.  Especially since one of the bosses spawns on the other side, iinm.  -- Innocentlysassy 05:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That looks quite nice, Innocent. Thanks :) EDIT: I tweaked the nav a little bit (added the loot page to the template and made the two halves of strat separate menus) -- 09:22, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Green Triangle
I am mentioned in the Dath Remar Server site for being awarded the first "Green Triangle". I know when I was starting I had a few teething problems adapting from warrior to Priest, but I'd like to know if anyone can tell me what the details of the original Green Triangle incident was, specifically Ltb0619 who wrote the piece.

-- Eccles 12:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (I added a header. --Azaram 02:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC))
 * As an actually useful answer, you might want to post on Ltb0619's talk page and ask him. Assuming he set up an email, he'll get a message that something has been posted there. --Azaram 11:06, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Something funky going on
So it seems there is something funky happening with the way wowwiki's css is displaying in on my browser (firefox), which was fine up until today. For example, on the instance and npc boxes, the "bosses" or "instance" heading appears small and aligned to the left, when it is usually bolded and centered. More disturbingly, the lootbox has lost almost all formatting, including background, and appears as a bulleted list. Anyone know what might be going on and whether it is just my computer - and if so, how to fix it? -- 08:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Everything looks normal on my side. (Tetsted with Safari, Camino and Firefox) - Stupid question, but have you tried to empty thge browser cache? (Reeina 10:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC))


 * Try what Reeina said... every once in a while, I get Wowwiki as a page from the 80s, where it's a blank white background with plain white text...


 * Relatedly, though, my user page seems to be having some problems. It used to have two columns of the templates, now has one column with the || formatting marks showing as text. It looks like someone went through and modified a lot of the templates themselves with different colors and icons, but would that have changed the formatting of the page itself? --Azaram 11:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Whatever it was, everything looks normal now. *Shakes fist at weird internet phenomena* -- 18:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Azaram, either use the normal syntax rather than || shortcut, use html, don't use tables, or make someone code userbox properly using divs. Basically the table syntax and wiki parser isn't robust enough for embeding tables like that, hence the change to userbox has broken your page. There's probably soemthing specific to point the finger at, but generally, that's the problem. --  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal  18:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I dunno what the normal syntax is... I found someone else's userpage that had something like what I wanted, and copied what they had. I know how to do HTML tables, but I dunno otherwise. Is there a how to somewhere? --Azaram 04:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

In Game Lore + Books
I'm interested in starting to catalog lore in the game, particularly the readable books found on tables, but also other readable items and lore nuggets revealed in quests. What sort of tag system should be used to hold these together? Would these be welcome here? -- Lese 04:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Catalog? What do you mean? --Sky (t | c | w) 04:34, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Look through In-Game Books -- and its alternate versions as linked to at the top of the page... -- k _d3 04:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Too slow, I had already started 'cataloging' the book items. Before moving the books around into the correct categories, please wait till a decision has been made to how the new categories are going to be setup. 04:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Edit: While here, I'd like to redraw some attention from admins to the section In-game books and styling so that the CSS can be implemented... sorry to hound, but I just like how Zeal made the design so much, I would love to use it. 04:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I've added Zeal's CSS to the Common.css as it seemed to be the one with the most support. If anything needs tweaking, please let us know! 10:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thankyou Kirkburn. 22:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It was apparently decided a 4th lever header was undesirable. The CSS in wowwiki.css and common.css need to be changed to relfect that it's now using a div, and remove the style attributes from the template itself. --  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal  http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 09:07, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow at 70
I've added a Wow at 70 page, which it is hoped will carry similar content to the nice "Wow at 60" guide produced by Gamespy for pre-bc level cap activity. 

I would really welcome assistance by experienced wowwikians in helping to fill out this page.

-- Ucgajhe 13:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Crushing Blows and Resiliance
I was just out reading the warrior forums, and found folks talking about resilience lowering the "crushing damage required defense value cap". And yet, there is not discussion of this in the relevant pages (Resilience, Defense, Crushing blow), or I am not able to identify it as such.

Would someone who knows something about how all that works do a bit of editing on the pages? Maybe I'm simply info-blind; but if I am, I doubt I'm alone in it. --Eirik Ratcatcher 20:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Resilience has nothing to do with crushing blows, it only lowers the chance to be critically hit, making it an alternative to defense when aiming for crit immunity. Defense can reduce the chance to be crushed, though, as it increases your miss/dodge/block/parry chance. What you heard probably was wishful thinking - it would be nice for the non-blocking druids to get means to avoid crushing blows, as it is rather easily possible for warriors and paladins to become crushing-immune with the respective temporary block buff up, so it sounds weird that you heard about it on the warrior forums. ~ 12:17, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I freely admit my ignorance on the topic. What I heard was on the lines of "Resiliance reduces chance to be crit, which also pushes crush off the table".  The thought there was, I am guessing, that if you can't be crit, you also can't be crushed.  You know definitely, then, that this is not so?  Either way the truth lays out, however, it should be mentioned on the respective pages.  As I said before, if I'm confused, others will be too.  --Eirik Ratcatcher 23:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, this is definately untrue, or druids would be piling resistance. The reason druids have tons of armor and HP is that we have no way to avoid crushing blows aside from dodge, so we have to live through them. (A little late, but I just noticed this. :-p) --Azaram 01:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * From my understanding, and mind you I am not a tank and I do not PvP... resilience changes crit into hit, it won't "push" anything around on the table. To push things off the table, you have to increase the chance to be missed, via dodge and parry, or to negate the effects of being hit, ala defense and block.   02:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

1.12 test site
We've got a test site up for WoWWiki running on MW 1.12! This is strictly for testing whether it breaks the wiki in any fashion, so it would be really useful if people could take a look and report anything you find :)

Info and reports on User:Kirkburn/Problems please! 20:51, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Because I basically can't access there, is the issue where Project: is not redirecting to Wowpedia:  popping up (as documented on WP:SR)? --Sky (t | c | w) 09:21, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Quest tooltips
With the coming 2.4 patch, quests will now get their own tooltips. I was wondering if we should add similar functionality for the quests to WoWWiki. Information that I was able to determine that is included in the in-game tooltips:
 * Quest name
 * Whether or not you are on the quest (wouldn't be shown on WoWWiki)
 * A short synopsis of the quest
 * A list of objectives

This would, at the very least, require a few parameters to be added to Questbox.

Along with this idea, we might change quest et al. to use the yellow "enchant" loot format. -- 15:35, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't believe the first set of changes are needed, as the reason they are linkable in game (it would seem, from so little information) is to show people what you're on, rather than as a main information. We can include the main information in hard text. As to your second set... I kinda like how they are right now. --Sky (t | c | w) 22:50, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Quests do have tooltips currently (I just have to enable JS to use 'em... :[ ). I'm not convinced those tooltips have any real use, but they're there.  I agree with Sky on this one. --Eirik Ratcatcher 23:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (Eirik, pcj designed the current js for the tooltips. :P. He's proposing that we add more. --Sky (t | c | w) 23:37, 22 February 2008 (UTC))
 * Not proposing, merely asking. I don't really care to add all that info, just wondering if anyone expected to see the quest tooltips to be implemented in a similar manner as the items. -- 23:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't have much use for the quest tooltips we have currently. I don't expect I'd have much more use for expanded ones.  Would it add much to page processing time?--Eirik Ratcatcher 19:18, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Category/Template idea
Heres a thought...

Why don't we make templates to match the categories and use them rather than the categories. That way, if a change is desired instead of having to create a bot, all you would have to do is change a line on the template, thus changing the category for every page it was on.
 * Using:


 * See User:Coobra/sandbox2 for template example
 * See User:Coobra/sandbox3 for template usage example

The page would not receive unnecessary text anywhere on the page, and only the category would be added. 18:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This is what Zeal has tried to do; though I find it disturbing that two would come up with the same idea. To say just a little on my thoughts, it is to disagree entirely with the thought of creating a template specifically for categorizing items/whatnot. That they are two different namespaces should make some indication that they shouldn't be mixed; furthermore, "just changing the template" is usually harder than you think, and could result in errors with the template usage made by people in general. In others' words, working as intended. :P --Sky (t | c | w) 23:35, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Aye, Sky brought up that and another problem before in relation to my templates. I understand his reasonings, but i still feel the benefits are worth the negatives.
 * The other problem was sort keys. The templates i made to quickly get the job done only allowed for one custom sort key for all categories. It's just not feasible to provide custom sort keys for any category and know what category you want applied to with templates, too much customisation to handle. I still thought they were worth the benefits though. If/When string functions are installed, things like that would become easier to handle with more automation rather than customisation, but still wouldn't be perfect. -- <ul style="font-size: 0.85em; margin: 0; padding: 0; list-style: none; list-style-type: none; list-style-image: none; display: inline; white-space: nowrap"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 05:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh...you found it disturbing that two came up with a similar idea, huh........I just had something witty I was going to say, but I lost my train of thought... *walks away mumbling to self* 06:19, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Quest Stacking
Something I've learned over my years playing WoW, is that knowing how to stack your quests can greatly speed up your leveling time. There are things you can do that will help keep you from revisiting the same area several times, and can help mitigate world travel needs.

A great example is the quest Pearl Diving. Although the ] page mentions you should acquire the [[Blue Pearl|Blue Pearl before entering the zone, there is no mention of it in Stranglethorn Vale where it would be very useful.

I'd like to start the process of adding that information, after hearing what everyone has to say on the subject. Perhaps this is what was intended by the "Zone questing guide" links on pages such as Badlands? I was thinking of new pages linked from the Zone#Quests pages, or putting a section on the Zone#Quests pages that lists quests in an execution-order, along with some explanations on why you are doing things in this way where appropriate (To answer the questions similar to "Why the heck do I need Blue Pearl x9?").

There will probably be differences in how the stacking should occur between Alliance and Horde, and rather than creating a single long Zone#Quests page, it might be good to go with the idea of a separate page for each faction.

So, I'd like some feedback on this project idea. Thanks!

-- Loopinvariant 20:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so I found some info on Powerlevel_Northshire_Valley although it seems be indirectly linked. It is a bit confusing that there is a Questing_in_Northshire but it doesn't link to Powerlevel_Northshire_Valley. The style is also inconsistent with Stranglethorn_Vale_quests. I suppose that's because this is a Wiki :-).

Is there an overall style/philosphy/design for quest information? I'm reading the policies now.

-- Loopinvariant 20:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I didn't even know Questing in Northshire existed >_<. I, along with a few others, have been working to add just the type of information you are talking about. Two pages should eventually be created for each zone: a "quest list" (ex: Teldrassil quests) which is just a table with quests, quest givers, and their locations listed; and a "questing guide" (ex: Teldrassil questing guide) which will talk about the most efficient way to complete quests in that zone, and which will contain the type of information you are talking about. Some formatting discussion for the quest list is currently going on at WoWWiki talk:Quest list project, but as of yet there is no standard for the questing guides (though I think the Teldrassil format has been used for several other zones - Thousand Needles questing guide, Dun Morogh questing guide, Azuremyst Isle questing guide, and one for Eversong Woods is on the way). I hope this answers your questions to some extent at least :) -- 22:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm... I remember seeing that page, though I had obviously forgotten about it. Category:Walkthroughs holds a few more similar to it. --Sky (t | c | w) 05:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

BlizzCast Q&A Questions Needed!
A message from your heathen overlords:

We are once again looking for fan-submitted questions to answer in future episodes of BlizzCast. It can be anything related to Blizzard, the company, our games, or the talented people that work here. We do have a Q&A session in the soon-to-be-released episode 2 where we cover a bit of Starcraft lore and several World of Warcraft game play questions. Keep an eye on the BlizzCast home page (http://us.blizzard.com/blizzcast/) for when it is released to get all the details. So if you have a question you want to get to us, please send an email with the subject line "BlizzCast Q&A" to the email address BlizzCast@Blizzard.com and you can include a name/character along with a location/realm if you'd like for us to refer to you during the show if your question is picked. While we won't be able to get to every one of them, we want to keep you updated on ours games or the company, whatever aspects are most important to you. Thanks for your help and be sure to tune into future BlizzCasts (http://us.blizzard.com/blizzcast/) to see if your question was answered!

Actually, it's from Blizzard, but do send along stuff anyway  00:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Theories With No Proof
Should we really let people add theories about things without any proof? I mean it doesn't hurt the page, it just look weird when a proof-less theory is listed. Personally, it reminds of like Elvis or Bigfoot sightings.  Mr.X8  <font color="#DEB887" title="If you're going to bother me, you better have a good reason...">Talk <font color="#000000" title="Don't think of it as spam, think of it as me spreading my teachings">Contribs  20:07, 23 February 2008 (UTC)


 * What pages are you referring to? If it is baseless speculation, it should go or get a base.-- 21:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Pained's article has one, the Cenarion Expedition's page has one where it says there's no proof but a theory of the naga draining the lke is to help Illidan make a new Well of Eternity.  Mr.X8  <font color="#DEB887" title="If you're going to bother me, you better have a good reason...">Talk <font color="#000000" title="Don't think of it as spam, think of it as me spreading my teachings">Contribs  03:21, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Boss tables
I use to go to the instance pages to search for specific boss information. I used the tables that used to be there to navigate to the correct page. Why were these tables removed? -- Scyth02 06:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * THey weren't removed. Click the [show] link in the infobox next to the word "Bosses". --Sky (t | c | w) 06:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Films and podcasts
Since the category Movies is about ingame videos mainly, how about adding a category "film" that includes the Warcraft Movie and "Second Skin", the mmo ducumentary. And how do we define "videos" and "movies"? what would machinima/bosskill/etc be considered.

And would "podcasts" be considered a type of media as well ?

-- SaudiGamer 08:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Curious about instance/raids
"Ragnaros, along with General Drakkisath, is the only end-boss of a pre-Burning Crusade raid instance that does not drop a quest-starting item as a reward for killing him." is a quote from the MC instance page. While searching for instance info both on Blizz's website and wowwiki, it appears that almost all baby instances have an option to bring 10 people into said instance. Now I've never brought 10 people into VC or SFK, etc, but it's possible which technically makes it a raid instance? Which negates that above quote as a handful of the end bosses in those intances do not drop quest-starting items (i.e. Aku'mai as well as all SM end-bosses).

Just wanted to check before pulling that comment off. Or perhaps clarify it a bit? -- Innocentlysassy 22:50, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * They used to be raidiable, but I know places like Scholo and Strath were capped at 5, I'm assuming all others below it were as well? --Piu (?!) 23:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, the fact that you can bring 10 people in if you really want to does not make those raid instances. All quests for those instances are for 5 man groups only, and the instance difficulty is tooled for 5-mans. Therefor, I would say they are NOT raid instances and leave the article as is. -- 00:13, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Raid vs group instances are usually defined by how many other people need to be used / can be used in order to complete a quest. --Sky (t | c | w) 00:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think they're still raidable, Piu, and only 4 instances were capped at 5. O_O  I understand the definition you guys are going by, as most quests can't be completed in raids for most instances.  And a lot of quests will tell you if that instance is a raid one.  I just always thought of it in my mind as "oh I can look at a raid tab as there's more than 5 people in this instance" for a raid.  But like I said... je comprends.  ;) -- Innocentlysassy 06:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Everything is capped at 5man pre TBC except those in Black Rock Mtn., Ony, the AQs, ZG and Naxx. -- 21:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Where's that patch note change? From what I recall, it's always been that you can raid whichever instances you want, save for Scholo and Strath. --Sky (t | c | w) 21:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Gonna agree with Sky here (which is why I asked in the first place). I know the chances of someone reading this is over, but just in case.  http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/worlddungeons.html Notice that it still says 10 for almost every instance.  And as such http://wowwiki.com/Instance (notice the players advised/max).  Okay, satisfied now.  =D  -- 08:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The Terokkar Mana Bomb
A large number of the quests involved in this chain are duplicated horde-and-alliance. The person the character reports to changes due to faction. But aside from the name of that person (where it appears in the quest text), the name of the stronghold/point the character reports to, and the quest ID, the quests are identical.

When I first wrote those quests up, I included both the Alliance and Horde versions on a single page. I felt, and still feel, that no good purpose is served by splitting them up based on the trivial differences between them.

Recently, these pages have been getting split up, with the original page being used as a disambig page. The components of The Terokkar Mana Bomb quest chain are my chief example. I do not see value to the splitting up of these pages. Most comments about the quest would be equally relevant for the other branch.

I was pointed to The Binding as an example in favor of splitting. I find that uncompelling as an example, as neither the quest text, nor yet the chains in which they appear, match one another. (And that when comparing like-with-like, mind, across either city or pet similarities.) Similarly, I can point to Gnome Engineering, with which I did some work myself. There is enough difference between the branches that I did not feel compelled to put them all on one page.

My contention is not that all quests with the same name should be on the same page, nor even that if they have the same rewards or purpose, they necessarily belong together. I am simply saying that, where the quests are so close together, there is no need to describe them on separate pages; that indeed, doing so causes problems that can be avoided by combining them.

--Eirik Ratcatcher 20:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * another example of (IMO) senseless disambiguation: Stolen Winter Veil Treats. --Eirik Ratcatcher 20:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I kinda support you here. Wowwiki is different than a data base site in that it's human-added content rather than auto-collected. We have lots of pages that are bot generated, but the strength of a site like this is that a reasonable editor can make decisions about when to group things up like this when it makes sense to do so. --Piu (?!) 20:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Loot Category Additions?
Finished making the page for Mana-Tombs loot and wanted to add it to the items for Mana-Tombs. However, noticed that such a category does not exist? Unless I'm looking in the wrong place. However, if such a page did not exist - to make it so - does that mean I have to go to every item's page and add the Category:Instance items link on it? Essentially building the page myself?

Also comments on how the heroic loot is displayed is welcome. As the other BC instances will follow suit when I get to them. -- Innocentlysassy 09:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Category:Mana-Tombs items? --Sky (t | c | w) 10:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Odd that I didn't see that when I searched for it. And it didn't help that the loot for the bosses I was checking wasn't added.  I'll go do that now.  Thanks for finding it.  --Innocentlysassy 22:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * is there going to be a loot page done up for the Caverns of time instances? They seem to be the only BC loot lists missing from the "Instance Loot" page. --ZepherDossier 14:51, 18 March 2008

Image location changes
As a result of the impending upgrade the location of images on the wiki have changed from   to   ... if you spot any broken images as a result of this, please either fix them and/or report them below! 14:34, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm informed that it should not break, even for old links to the files. However, it would probably be a good idea to search for them and see if they can be dealt with in a better way anyway. 14:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Crap, guess this means I have to edit my adblock settings. -- 16:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Image namespace pages are showing up with that external link icon (the little arrow). Will that be cleaned up when we're full integrated? --Sky (t | c | w) 06:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, "thumb"ed images are leaving a lot more whitespace than before. Can has also fix? --Sky (t | c | w) 07:08, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I notice the elink icon thing only appears on the WoWWiki skin - very odd. Will report. Not sure what you mean by the extra whitespace? Larger magins sizes? 22:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. There's a good half inch on my screen on one of the thumbed images I was viewing yesterday. Dar'Khan Drathir, for example. Maybe it's just me, but I don't remember having this much margin space. --Sky (t | c | w) 23:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, looks like the Monobook skin was updated. 13:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

On a another note, we're on a new server system, with a rather cool side effect: Nice, eh? If you're confused, it's that we don't need the index.php part anymore 22:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.wowwiki.com/Silvermoon_City?useskin=wowwiki
 * http://www.wowwiki.com/Silvermoon_City?useskin=monobook

2 Items - Same Name but Different
Is there any way of creating a diff page for a 2nd item if both items share the same name? For example Terokk's Mask is both a quest item as well as a quest reward (See Terokk's Legacy all 3 required items are that way). So anyone hovering over the quest item (when white) will display the reward since there is no page for the turn-in item itself. -- 19:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, see WP:DISAMBIG. -- 20:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've made the necessary changes to Terokk's Mask. -- 20:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, see compared to, and the   command for tooltip -- k _d3 20:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'll make the change to the other 2 as well.  Hopefully it works.  =D  (And if anyone is still looking at this, is there a reason the 5 in (1/5) didn't show up for the Shoulders of Assassination on Talon King Ikiss's page?... trying to learn stuff) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by.


 * Didn't have the  command specified...  -- k _d3 22:41, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Awesome. Love finding out things.  Thanks for fixing it. *wriggles*  Thanks! -- 23:16, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You got a page made for the turn-in item now? --Eirik Ratcatcher 20:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * See and .  21:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Bad Book template
See Old Hatreds - The Colonization of Kalimdor using wowwiki skin. This uses the book template. On my Firefox 2.0.0.12, the book text appears dark brown letters on dark gray background and basically unreadable. Is no one else running into this? -- Fandyllic  (talk · contr) 2:56 PM PST 27 Feb 2008


 * Fine on mine. Try clearing your cache. --Sky (t | c | w) 22:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Fine on mine. 23:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I cleared my cache and it still looks bad. See Image:BadBook.jpg. Any other things I can try to do to fix this? --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 6:35 PM PST 7 Mar 2008


 * Here's what I see. See Image:Goodbook.jpg. It's weird you even have a border around the box...wonder who else is having this problem. 02:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I also see what Coobra is seeing. Fandyllic: Have you checked custom CSS (Wiki or Firefox addons) to see if somehow the class that the book css is implemented at is being confused? --Sky (t | c | w) 04:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it was some custom CSS I had that was over-riding the defaults. All fixed now. Thanks for the tips. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 5:19 PM PST 10 Mar 2008

Help regarding bold in watchlists
I have an account on Wikipedia and obviously one here as well. On my Wikipedia User Talk page I asked: One of the responses I got was: Can anyone here assist me with this? Here is a link to the whole conversation.--Rockfang 00:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Q: On WoWWiki when I view my watchlist, new changes are bolded. How do I do that here?
 * A: This sounds like an extension that your other Wiki uses, but Wikipedia does not. I'd suggest contacting an administrator on WoWWiki - they may be able to give you the name of the extension which does this, which you can look up on the MediaWiki site, and (possibly) copy the javascript code into your personal script file.


 * I believe it's custom .js, rather than an extension. Try the .js linked on your page first; if that doesn't help, I'll go digging through the code to see what it is that does that. This isn't the only wiki that works like that, as the other wiki I work on also has the recent watchlist changes in bold as well. Hmm... --Sky2042 05:48, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Strange stuff, that... No, I think it's the other way around.  I've been on a great number of Wikis -- both on and off Wikia -- and I've seen the aforementioned bolded new changes.  I think Wikipedia either isn't running the little thing that all other Wikis are, or maybe is stuck with older software due to the sheer vast amount of stuff there-in.  I dunno...  Sorry. ~ <font color="#00BF00">Doc Lithius [ U|T|C ] 06:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * To Sky2042: I'm not sure what you mean when you say: "Try the .js linked on your page first;"--Rockfang 10:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Nevermind. I had a brain fart.  I understand now.  I tried it, and it works.--Rockfang 03:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

"Exclusive Content Contract" with WOWDB?
Curse has recently launched WOWDB, a World of Warcraft database. According to Wowinsider:
 * Curse has obtained an "exclusive content contract" with WoWWiki for the use of their information.

The article goes on to say:
 * Curse entered an agreement with WoWWiki to create a portal to the wiki via their site.

And that Wowwiki confirmed this, although it is left open whether these were the only terms of the agreement. It looks they're already using articles full-length on their pages. Can anyone shed some light on this? -- 18:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The "exclusive content contract" line was misspoken, as per that poster's later response in the thread. Everything on the wiki is under the FDL, so "exclusivity" cannot ever be a factor. As long as they obey the FDL by making sure that their copy of our content is under the FDL and sourced as ours, I'm pretty sure the stance the adminship is taking is "ok, whatever". That 'contract', by the way is http://wow.curse.com/wikia/Main_Page -- k _d3 18:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Naxx content and tradeskilling
This is content I was never privvy to, and so I am in need of some assistance in understanding, and cataloging the crafted? frost resistance items. Here's where I'm at so far...


 * 1) You have to become attuned to Naxxaramus by completing The Dread Citadel - Naxxramas, which requires you to be at least friendly (and probably higher) with Argent Dawn.
 * 2) You then have to complete Echoes of War (does this require higher than friendly status with Argent Dawn?)
 * 3) You THEN have to complete (one of) the quests (like Icebane Breastplate) of the frost resistance set.

At this point, I become confused. A note mentioned that you learn the recipe if you are Exalted with AD. Do you have to be Exalted to get the quests? Do you get JUST the recipe (assuming you have the right crafting skill)? Do you get JUST the item? Both?

The items are BoE, I presume so that not-everyone in the raid has to get to Exalted AD to be able to get the gear.

Anyone have Naxx raiding experience? --Eirik Ratcatcher 00:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It's odd that those items are BoE, I'm not sure if they've always been. The short story is that you can learn the patterns from the prisoner NPC in Naxxramas given that you match profession and AD rep requirements; the third quest is an optional step for characters that chose professions that do not craft the resistance gear - they can hand in similar mats (in larger amounts, iirc) to receive the crafted item as a reward from a quest. -- Foxlit 09:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the info. Could you name names? (of NPCs... on the pages for the items involved)
 * BTW... is Foxlit an alias for you, or "a name you would switch to if you could"? --Eirik Ratcatcher 19:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Following links yields Craftsman Wilhelm as the quest giver, and Master Craftsman Omarion as the trainer prisoner.
 * Generally, I use foxlit on IRC (shorter names there in general, starlightblunder is a bit of a pain to type); the User: pages on wiki are intermixed - since this account has administrator privileges, I tend to edit on it. Think if we had the user rename modification when I got sysoped, we would've preferred to change my username to match the IRC name to reduce confusion a bit. -- Foxlit 00:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Following links eventually led me to [this link], which explains enough that I think I know what's going on now. (Now I'm MUCH more dangerous!)  The book quest enables the armor quests; otherwise you get taught recipes for the same items.  Do you have to have a particular AD rep either 1) to get the recipes? 2) to get the book quest? or 3) to get the individual armor quests?   As mentioned above, a comment somewhere implied that you had to have exalted AD rep to get the recipes.  --Eirik Ratcatcher 21:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC) Edit: Dur, dur...  Craftsman Wilhelm lists the armor quests as requiring revered to exalted. Still, rep requirement on the book quest?  on the recipes? --Eirik Ratcatcher 21:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * There are different recipes at different rep levels starting iirc, at honored and going through exalted. You have to be exalted to get all of the patterns.  To get them you simply have to beat the first boss in Naxx then talk to the prisoner in one of the following rooms.  He will train you in these patterns I believe free of charge. They are BOE because they are items you basically need to complete the dungeon.-- 17:29, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Special section for Arena?
With Arena being such a large part of the game, it seems a bit silly that it isn't discussed in much detail here in WoWWiki. The problem of adding information about Arena here however is I feel that any information about it placed in the Tactics or Builds section of each class will get overwhelmed by dozens of different PvE specs, BG specs, etc.

So I propose each class page be expanded to have a separate page dealing with Arena, with sections for popular builds, members of the class that have distinguished themselves in Arena, popular team matrices run with the classes in question, professional Arena teams who run the matrices, etc. There can also be sections suggesting strategies against other team compositions, and a discussion on how each of a class' spells can be utilized in PvP. For example, it's not a well-known fact amongst general WoW players that a rogue can Vanish a Death Coil or a nuke to completely avoid the CC and damage. Some incredible players like Nitrana even Vanish Blinds and Intimidating Shouts.

What do you guys think? It seems the community here is mostly based in RP and PvE, but I'm hoping for some input. I myself enjoy all aspects of the game, but PvP appeals to me the most. My mage was Duelist last season and I'm planning on going Gladiator with my hunter for S3.

-- Zexx 00:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This is intended as an encyclopedia, not a 'look how big my epeen is'. I have no idea who Nitrana is, and really don't care. That a class ability, especially a rogue one, can break a lot of other class abilities is not 'incredible'. As long as it doesn't devolve into 'OMG TIS IS MEH TEEM WE R TEH COO:L!!', I am indifferent to it.


 * Of course, I'm nobody special, otherwise. --Azaram 02:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The idea of an arena section or sections of the class pages sounds good to me. I myself don't do much PvP, but it would be great to provide content for those who do. And it may encourage people such as myself to try PvP if there are ways we can learn about it. But, I agree with Azaram that it could be difficult to keep these pages neutral and professional, so they need to be carefully monitored. -- 21:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Azaram is a bitter, bitter poster. If you actually read my post with a clear head instead of foaming at the mouth, you would've seen that my post about Vanish was addressing adding in Arena information that most people probably would not know -- such as that Vanish can wipe effects like Death Coil, Blind, etc and allow the rogue to roam free in stealth without eating the debuff.

I'll start with some cursory posts for Mages and Hunters. Anyone have a suggestion of what the separate page should look like in terms of organization? List of abilities and what they can do in PvP, team matrices, talent builds, etc. --- Zexx 08:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * No, I'm not bitter. I just think that PVP is the least interesting part of the game, and am sick of its addicts thinking they are the best and that the whole game is for them, thus setting themselves above anyone who doesn't pvp (See the official forms, where anyone posting anything is berated for having a low arena rating, or 'scrub' non PVP armor, as well as lots of whining about 'welfare epics') You specifically mentioned how incredible it was that a rogue manages to use a rogue class ability, with a name as if that person is impressive for being able to do so. I would be willing to bet that most rogues doing arena already know that stuff, so it's not all that incredible. That being said, I am not against there being how-to arena stuff... just that it needs to not be lots of epeen waving about how great a rogue that one you mentioned is. No need for specific names at all, since who someone is doesn't matter to how a class works. --Azaram 11:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

So you're very very bitter. You just followed up "No, I'm not bitter" with an entire treatise on why you hate PvP. I don't think anyone here asked for your opinion, or gave the impression that they feel their aspect of the game is superior to yours? But you obviously hold a bias against it since you claimed ePeen waving when all I said was Nitrana is good enough to counter instant CC effects with a Vanish... Which is very hard to do. The point was to indicate that this is possible, and the entire purpose of writing how-to-Arena guides is for people who are getting started and need help on strategies they should take with them when encountering certain team matrices.

Your position on this is clear, so if you don't mind, please keep off my section here. Last thing I need around here are anti-PvP trolls. Most players in Arena don't know everything about what they're doing. Your line of reasoning would mean WoWWiki shouldn't sponsor PvE guides on how to down raid bosses, because obviously if they're raiding, they must LOGICALLY know how to do all the fights. Amirite?

Anyway, can I get a response from higher up? Maybe Kirkburn? I'd need help on how to divide the section and make an introductory page. -- Zexx 18:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You're pretty obviously one of the ones who feel that they have to stroke their epeen in public. My position is, since you've managed to miss it every time, that the section is not a bad idea, but it needs to stay non POV. It isn't hard to use a class ability to do what the class ability is intended for, but it seems to impress you. And no, you're not 'rite'. --Azaram 02:34, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm going to ignore the personal stuff, and say yes. Arena-specific guides is an excellent idea. Raids, battlegrounds, duelling and Arenas are all rather different beasts. If only Blizz would stop adding new aspects to game, organising all this would be so much easier :) Player vs Player is probably a good place to start. Do we have a PvP navigation box? If not, we should probably make one.


 * I really want to work more on the portals idea when I get some time. By splitting off the non-WoW stuff to other portals, the Main Page can link to more of this stuff. 19:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't believe we have PvP navigation boxes. What would be the easiest way to organize this?  I was thinking we could make an Arena-dedicated page for each class in the class navigation menus (Like how they each have one for talent builds, races, lore, etc) and divide sections from there...  But a PvP dedicated portal might be a good idea.  --- Zexx 00:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * what i really miss is a page where all, and i mean really ALL PvP-rewards are listed. and in a proper way, per example: hi, im a heal priest doing PvP. Show me all items i can get and this leads me to the priest/heal or disc page where ALL PvP-rewards are listed. in a way like: this is your neck, u get it from there for that. this is your set, from there, and all free equipment slots ar best stuffed with this, that and so on. i dont want a page with all PvP rings on it in a really ugly ordering, including the lvl40 rings... [[Image:Alliance_15.gif]]HJT (t/c) 10:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * That's probably best done on a separate page for PvP Rewards, which should list what was offered each season in terms of set and non-set PvP epics. Some PvE items can go in there as alternatives as well, as some weapons (Such as the Black Bow of the Betrayer from Illidan, and many BT trinkets) are actually superior to the Arena weapons for certain classes.


 * Azaram, I thought I made it clear that I don't appreciate the trolling? Your dismissive attitude wasn't appreciated the first place, nor your accusations of ePeen flinging or that the page would ultimately become NPOV.  You can lick your wounds about the mean ol' PvPers on the WoW forums who hurt you so very badly elsewhere.  :)  I'll start some opening up some new pages in the Class Portals for Arena and get some work down tonight.  As mentioned before Kirkburn if you have any other ideas of making this tidier and easier to access as well as organize, let me know.  ---  Zexx 18:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I didn't realize I needed your permission to express an opinion... I don't remember anyone asking for yours, either. You don't read very well. I said it's not a bad idea, it just needs to be kept non POV. Maybe the third try will get through...--Azaram 13:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay seriously why are you still trolling? Here was your opening statement.

"This is intended as an encyclopedia, not a 'look how big my epeen is'. I have no idea who Nitrana is, and really don't care. That a class ability, especially a rogue one, can break a lot of other class abilities is not 'incredible'."

First you assume ePeen stroking. Great opening troll. Then you demean, continually, the aptitude it takes to operate in PvP as "lawl ability A beats ability B ePeening obviously anyone can do it it's not incredible". Yeah obviously anyone can play pro football too, because all it requires it taking a ball from one side to the other. Then you responded with this after your opening troll post.

"I just think that PVP is the least interesting part of the game, and am sick of its addicts thinking they are the best and that the whole game is for them, thus setting themselves above anyone who doesn't pvp (See the official forms, where anyone posting anything is berated for having a low arena rating, or 'scrub' non PVP armor, as well as lots of whining about 'welfare epics') You specifically mentioned how incredible it was that a rogue manages to use a rogue class ability, with a name as if that person is impressive for being able to do so. I would be willing to bet that most rogues doing arena already know that stuff, so it's not all that incredible."

If you're so uninterested in PvP, why did you post? Why would you even be remotely interested in being part of this project? So you just posted to vent saying how much you hate PvP, you strawmanned the entire PvP population by claiming they're all out to rip you apart (Poor baby. : then even more hating on Arena players by directly demeaning their favored aspect of the game.  Why are you so bitter?  Honestly.  Stop trolling.  Noone here appreciates it and all you're doing is appropriating more evidence for a fat cease and desist ban.  You obviously don't care from your posts, but you had to make it a point about how much you think the system sucks while contributing absolutely nothing to the proposed project.

QQ more, L2P, etc. Lick your wounds elsewhere. As you said this is an encyclopedia not a soapbox for you to bitch and moan about us trying to get some Arena info going. --- Zexx 17:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll block the both of you if you can't be nice to each other and/or continue to post in this section. There was no reason for you to respond directly to him Zexx, nor you Azaram (in the most recent discussion). --Sky (t | c | w) 04:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup -- Things to Do Request
Hello! I'm a newer user and was trying to help out on the things to do page, but I noticed a lack of instructions on how to fix the errors. Some of them are more clear in expectation than others. But it would certainly be nice to have someone with more knowledge add some directions on "how to fix a broken redirect"(as an example). If I am missing the directions... can you point me that way? I would have put this on their talk page, but I didn't see one for these "special pages"

-- Trilless 10:31, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure if I'll help you out at all, but I'll give it a shot. Iinm there's not going to be instructions anywhere as they'll assume that you know how to help fix it, but if you need to learn you can do a search for the function you're looking for.  Redirect, for example, will give you a help page on how to make a redirect page.  Some of those pages on the list may have already been fixed?  Depending on if the person who was working on it took off the code that requested the "to do."  This wiki itself, tho, will tell you how to help edit most of the pages if you search for it.  You can also do what you did and ask for help here, or click on "edit this page" on pages that do it right to see how people have done the solution. -- 13:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Batting cleanup a pretty hard thing to do, I'll agree. (I've got several folks who seem to follow me around, fixing my boneheaded mistakes...)  Some cleanup is "stubs", where you can look up the relevant information (first hand, or third hand via some of the database sites).  ::Some is "to a better standard", which is mostly code for "this is a piece of ####, could someone please rewrite it".  However, sometimes it means "this page doesn't look much like those other similar pages".  At which point you have to guess which the other pages are...  And no, hints are not ususally given. :)
 * There are SOME boilerplate pages that are as close as we come to "this is what we think we expect". (Note that, since we have 3+ people here, there ARE minority opinions... :) )
 * If you are uncertain about the quality of your changes, you could always create a page in your user space (User:XXX/something), then start a section on the pump here asking for comments about it before you replace the given page.
 * Like Sassy above, can't guarantee this helps, but... --Eirik Ratcatcher 20:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * On a similar note, why the heck don't we have a "reason" section on stubs? This would be really useful, as I will sometimes come across a stub and I can't figure out why it was put there, or perhaps someone had fixed the problem but did not remove the stub. Can this feature be added? It should be fairly simple to do. (see the ss or sd templates to see what I am talking about, they both have a reason field). -- 22:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd like to wholeheartedly agree here. Sometimes when I feel bored, I decide to look what else can be done... and so I start clicking on things to do, but can't see anything that needs to be done.  A reason on some of the stubs would be awesome, or simply writing an explanation in the discussion area of the article of why the stub was put there.  Also, if things get done... please remove the stub? -- 22:06, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I added a reason field: see below. -- 23:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Awesome, Jiyambi! This avoids those cases (like I just had) where a cleanup request on the discussion page grows stale.  And also allows the griper (putting a cleanup tag or whatever) to be more particular.  --Eirik Ratcatcher 21:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

A Warcraft Apothecary
Hi guys,

I am currently working on giving the harvestable herbs in Warcraft medicinal properties. Now you may say that they already have properties, they are used in the Alchemy trade. So what? Herbs have a wide array of uses in the real world, so why not in Warcrack as well? Ive been using this site for the list of herbs and their in-game icons, and then matching them up with real world herbs... or just picking one that looks similar. Like Peacebloom matches the Daisy, Silverleaf matches Holly... etc. Of course some game herbs wont have any real-world equivalent, like Netherbloom. So in this case Im just going to find a herb that kinda matches what the in-game does in Alchemy. Currently Im on Briarthorn (Smooth Sumach).

So, my question is, can I make a page on this site and have it listed along with the herbs page? It would be a great resource for Role Players that actually want to use herbs in more than just Alchemy. ^.^ -- Eveshka 18:07, 1 March 2008 (UTC) Eveshka - Moonguardian Draenei Shamaness


 * By all means, be bold! We don't bite all that much. I'd suggest an article title of something along the lines like Herbs in the real world. -- k _d3 18:14, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * How do I change the page title? O.o Something like Medicinal Azerothian and Outland Herbs... -- Eveshka --Moonguardian Draenei Shamaness


 * You don't have to change the page title. You can do as kd said and make a new page about the herbs (and maybe have a link from the original herb page to this one directly to that herb?).  You can put the information on the herb page itself (unless it gets really long) and make it a new # in the table of contents.  I think some of the jewel pages have real pics or links to the real gem itself irl, so maybe add some pics too?  =D  Have fun!  And if you're unsure, make a test page on your space and have people look at it to see if they like it, or if things should be changed.  -- 22:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Why Keep This Cat?
Went tromping through the "these pages have nothing that point to it" "things to do" list, and was stumped by this cat: http://www.wowwiki.com/Category:NPCs_sells. Was mildly curious as to why it still exists (especially since it's in the "nothing points to me" list). I checked on maybe 4-5 of the pages, and all the information that can be found on those pages, can also be found on the NPC's page itself. Perhaps it's time to get rid of those pages and that cat? Unless there's a reason we're keeping them around. And also, if that's the case, then there should be a link on those pages back to the NPC itself, so you don't have to manually delete the /NPC_Sells to see the info on the NPC. -- 11:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe those pages are automatically generated by Laurlybot. I'm not sure why the bot puts the sells table on a separate page and then links it from the main npc page - perhaps because in this way the sells page can be updated by bot without losing any edits to the main page. I would talk to Laurly or someone who knows more about the bots before messing with it - I'm assuming the category is there to help keep track of all the "sells" pages for the bots. -- 20:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * are -> were. The pages are transcluded, like templates. Why it's on the things to do list? To get rid of them, course, as Laurly has gone afk (prolly will be back for the summer), and thus the bot won't be updating them anytime soon. --Sky (t | c | w) 23:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, the truth becomes clear! Thanks Sky. So, we just need to move those tables into the actual NPC article, then delete the table page? -- 00:40, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yah. You can add the  magic word, (e.g.  ), open up the links from the "Templates used in this section" list below the edit box, save, then sd tag (or delete, whee for being an admin!) the xcludes. I find that to be the most painless way to do it, but whatever works for you. -- k _d3 19:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I've also been subst'ing the templates used: T:NPCs Sells Header and what not, as I feel templates aren't really needed, as well as cleaning up the pages in general (getting rid of quests header, adding correct category for the race, add race, etc). As with below, mileage may vary. :) --Sky (t | c | w) 23:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Cited Issues
More and more people are changing cited sentences from the RPG to other things. For instance people keep changing "she" to "them" or "he". Changing cited work is wrong of course, but is changing stuff like that okay? Otherwise, a lot of people are going to be banned.  Mr.X8  <font color="#DEB887" title="If you're going to bother me, you better have a good reason...">Talk <font color="#000000" title="Don't think of it as spam, think of it as me spreading my teachings">Contribs  17:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that really depends. The cited stuff should not be quotes, anyway - it should be paraphrased. So as long as the changes don't change the facts, they should be okay in my opinion. But Baggins or someone of more knowledge in this realm should probably give a more definite answer. -- 20:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Jiyambi. Unless it's a direct quote (which we shouldn't need too many of), as long as it doesn't effect what the sentence is saying, it's not a problem. Gender changes is ... odd. Is it because different sources give different genders? WoW would normally supercede the RPG, but it should probably be noted that the sources differ - e.g. "(note that X refers to this character as female)". 19:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Well when wow talks about classes they say "she". People have been changing it to "he" or "them", especially on the demon hunter page.  Mr.X8  <font color="#DEB887" title="If you're going to bother me, you better have a good reason...">Talk <font color="#000000" title="Don't think of it as spam, think of it as me spreading my teachings">Contribs  01:36, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Stubs and reasons
Alright, I went through all the stubs who didn't have it already and added a reason field as the second field of the stub. For example, produces:

I hope this is a helpful addition. -- 21:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Good idea! 21:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Along the same lines, I went ahead and moved the reason towards the bottom of the cleanup stub, and added a date parameter so they can be tracked for how long they've been marked for cleanup. So now it will appear as:

-- Added the color so it would stand out some, but it doesn't have to be red if preferred not to be... 05:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the date is a good addition, in fact something that could be added to all the stubs. I don't like the red color, however - I think the date doesn't really need to stand out, and the red actually makes it harder for me to read. That's just one opinion, though. -- 19:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Oops! =/ Rename pic?
Is there a way to rename the page an uploaded pic is on? I accidentally spelled Lemla Hopewing Lemia Hopewing when uploading her jpg. Apparently I need bigger font. So currently the screenshot links correctly from Lemla's page... but I'd like to actually see the pic and pic's page be corrected. How to do? -- 01:38, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Just re-upload the same screenshot with the correct name, change the link on the article, and mark the old image with a speedy delete. 02:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Aggro template
Is it just me, or do the green and red colors used for this template seem brighter, than a few days ago? 02:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You mean and the others? Not that I can tell.  19:08, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I meant aggro, thats used in the npcboxes ... an edit was done to it the other day, and it the green/red seem brighter to me. Also, when leaving a blank in it like this aggro it produces now, when it used to not show the alliance if left blank.  20:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah yeah, I do see that now. Is it bad that they're brighter? It should be CSS anyway, since it's hard to read on monobook. 20:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It still looks horrid on monobook, so whoever changed it didn't finish the job. -- 20:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

virus warning when visiting GameAmp
There are multiple articles on WoWWiki that link to the GameAmp site. Every time I visit this site, I get a warning from both McAfee SiteAdvisor and my antivirus. Is anyone else getting this? If so, is there any way links to this site can be blocked from WoWWiki?--Rockfang 07:40, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ouch, do you know where it coming from? An advert? 19:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope. I just checked though, and the virus is still there.--Rockfang 04:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

See Also ...
I admit to having acted somewhat piratically, securing the template for its intended uses against the forces of doom. Or indiscriminate correction, take your pick.

Or rather, there are at least two opinions out there: 1) AlsoSee should be deprecated.  2) AlsoSee should be converted into a section heading. As I point out on the AlsoSee talk page, there DO exist reasons which, in my opinion, justify the continued existence of this template.

In my researches, I find also that, , and all redirect to.

Except for two problems, I would suggest a compromise solution: Convert "the pages where an AlsoSee reference line is justified" to one of these names, and convert everything else to another.

Problem 1: use that people would think of as "inappropriate" (for any subjective definition) will creep in again, causing this argument all over again. Problem 2: I personally consider "a template that creates an article section" broken, creating more editing headaches, even as an interim solution, it solves.

So, a second solution... if you don't like See Also lines in a given article, edit the template out. If you hate it as a general solution, go to "what links here" and set to. I've done a little of that, and found that yes, even pages I myself created/edited could have had their See Also broken out. ... But I also found many pages where it would be harmful to do so.

Respectfully, --Eirik Ratcatcher 20:38, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not a huge fan of the template personally. There's only a few places I think it actually makes sense to use, as the links could either be moved into prose text, or linked as a proper list at the page end under a See also heading - both easier for most people to edit. main can cover many uses of it, and I only think a see also xxx line is useful where main makes no sense. And, of course, we need to consolidate them into template name. 20:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Amberrock suggested a "fix me" tag ala laurlybot and sometimes foxbot.
 * main seems less appropriate if your goal is to point someone to it rather than discuss it in summary.  Perhaps we agree on that.
 * As above, even I feel there are plenty of cases where it could profitably be turned into a section. ... Just not, please, by having the template make the section.
 * Perhaps you would care to take on a sampling of current AlsoSee pages and post on the talk page alternatives to the type of case where I find AlsoSee useful? You can avoid the obvious "move it to a section" cases.  (Hmm... perhaps I should have linked particular versions in my comment.  Ah, well.)  --Eirik Ratcatcher 21:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Note also, which is the preferred version of in-section linking. The Template should be moved to a section of it's own at the bottom, just as you've made initiative to do Eirik (zomg, you're turning into Zeal... wtflux?!?! :P) Of course, a see also section at the end has its uses. --Sky (t | c | w) 23:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Zeal seems better able to follow through, though... :)

This should keep the wiki intact during the transition, enable something akin to retropatrolling, allow for individualized translations, and provide for closure of the project. With "poisoned templates", perhaps even prevent a relapse into the current chaos of templates. A relapse into over-use of the template is virtually guaranteed, but whatyagonnado? As I am bot-less in Azeroth, the wiki is safe from me for much some of this. And I'd like to be sure (more than just one voice) we have consensus on "the alsosee to standardize on" before I spend time on it. And yes, I'm willing to put a bit of time into this, if folks want. --Eirik Ratcatcher 21:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Proposed:
 * 1) create  (or some usefully named template), which should provide the duties of the various  -like template, but in addition add a (noinclude) category reference, with some name like "See Also Review"
 * 2) Bot substitute  for each of:,  (=!  try it!), , and
 * 3) Eliminate all but the the agreed-upon template.  Alternately, instead of redirecting to that template, add "don't use this, use that instead" tags to each of the other templates, to discourage someone recreating the redirects.
 * 4) Go through the "see also watch" category by page, reconverting links to the agreed template when in-place links are most useful, and converting them to "see also footers" where possible.
 * 5) When it is evident the see also watch category is languishing, bot-convert them manually in some useful fashion (back to  -whatever, to in-place sections, or however).


 * Phase 1 starting... I consolidate templates, un-redirecting them in my wake, to prevent relapse.  Let the howling commence... --Eirik Ratcatcher 22:59, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * T:Seealso != T:See also, fyi. :o And you are not so botless as you may think; wikipedia:WP:AWB can be of some aid (see the other section on this page on AWB). --Sky (t · c · w) 23:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I noted that. See improved commentary on  and  .  And given that, I'm reluctant to start in on a one-size-fits-all solution, unless it were to do a mass "AlsoSee" to "Alsosee" conversion.  (Or should it be "Seealso" to "SeeAlso"?  No matter.    SeeAlso is a currently a (low page count) redirect, so I'm going to be undirecting those first.  After that, we can move them in mass if we want. --Eirik Ratcatcher 23:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

As Futurama said, "You've watched it, you can't unwatch it". The for template directed me to wikipedia. Wikipedia shows, perhaps, origins for some of these templates and redirects. Before I wreck things, perhaps a bit more thought is needed. Please examine The See Also plot and tell me what you think. --Eirik Ratcatcher 00:38, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

AWB
So i'm trying to get AWB going on User:OseBot so that I can fix some category issues myself. The problem is, I need to configuire it to edit wowwiki instead of wikipedia. Can anyone tell me how? -- 21:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Options > User and project preferences.  switch project to Custom, second box set to wowwiki.com/.  You will have to make the lists by hand, it is easiest to do it by copy/pasting into notepad and erasing all the extra junk characters, and then uploading it.  21:41, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Find and replace in notepad works very easily when making your own lists. I have a subpage where I use some javascript ripped from Wikipedia to do it, then I save it as a .txt. Mileage may vary. --Sky (t | c | w) 23:12, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Odd voting
I would like to direct your attention to these three questionable pieces of fan art. Drawn by Azazel 1944 and uploaded by Egrem, these have been taken down from their respective pages a few times, and are now nominated for deletion. The votes whether for of against should be repeated on all three pages, as they are a 'set' (In a side note, a fourth one of Lady Blaumeux already was deleted). Most of the votes are, but not all, so I am pointing out all three to try and make things a bit more organized. This in no way reflects my opinion of them.-- 21:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Looking at the deleted revision history for the Lady Blaumeux picture, the vote was at 3 Delete votes to 1 Keep vote at the moment of deletion. This violates the Deletion policy, which requires a 3-vote margin on the winning side, as well as a 5-day closure period since the winning vote. If there's a reason for bypassing the deletion policy in that fashion, it is also probably applicable to the other three images. -- Foxlit 01:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The content of these images was already given the ok by Kirkburn, and should thus not be deleted on those grounds. The only reason i could see for deleting them is issue of fan art and image policies, which are still unclear and contradictory respectively. I brought it up before in Fandy's topic about images that are too big, but it was unresolved. I can't say delete/keep myself unless i know which stance the wiki plans to take on image policy. Personal preference though is to only keep images that are needed at their max required size for use in articles, off link to the full version. So these would be reuploaded at lesser sizes and off linked to these full sizes. -- <ul style="font-size: 0.85em; margin: 0; padding: 0; list-style: none; list-style-type: none; list-style-image: none; display: inline; white-space: nowrap"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 11:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I have no problem with them, and I think they're nowhere near "sexually explicit" anyway (not that we have a 'censorship' rule). We're not here to bow down to prudish sensibilities - though we shouldn't be thrusting in it people's faces. Having the images thumbnailed (or in a gallery section) is all that's really needed. As for the actual use of the images - assuming we're allowed to carry them by the author (and are crediting them) there's no reason for them not to be marked as fanart and used on pages lacking images. 20:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Adys did the deletion ( 17:04, 2 March 2008 Adys (Talk | contribs | block) deleted "Image:Blaumeux.jpg" ) of [[Image:Blaumeux.jpg]] without checking the policy, so he gets a demerit. Admins need to be careful to follow policy especially on deletion votes. The Lady Blameux image may have been more likely to offend, since there was more of a state of "undress" in that image. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 5:20 PM PST 7 Mar 2008


 * WoWWiki is not a porn site guys. 22:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Cue wheel war. -- 22:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Instance Names?
Just out of sheer curiosity, is there a reason why some of the instance name pages aren't named the way WoW made them and is instead a redirect? For example, all the instances with "The" as the first word have it eliminated, and instead "The <Instance>" redirects to that (<Instance>) page. Is it a policy not to have "The" as a main page? And also Steam Vaults is two words, but the main page of it is Steamvaults, and "The Steam Vaults" redirects to that one. The Stockades has something odd like that too. Just something odd that caught my eye. -- 09:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess I do need the information. =/  As I need to create some pages like The_Steam_Vaults (or variations thereof)_loot... -- 09:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * "Steamvault" is its name in-game, and that's what we'll go with, rather than the usually inconsistent Blizzard encyclopedia. And yes, it's naming policy to eliminate the "The" for place-names. --Sky (t | c | w) 10:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, it depends where you look in the game Sky. It also two words in the game, the inconsistancy of naming sretches to the game too. -- <ul style="font-size: 0.85em; margin: 0; padding: 0; list-style: none; list-style-type: none; list-style-image: none; display: inline; white-space: nowrap"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 11:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Argh. Vargh said it was Steamvault in the ZCP edit history; I think he claimed that was the spelling inside the instance, rather than outside. --Sky (t | c | w) 11:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah I looked at some screenshots (I haven't instanced in forever) and it is one full word in the instance... at least the ones I've seen. I was looking at the Dungeon listing on Worldofwarcraft.com when I asked the question.  They need to stay consistant.  ;) -- 01:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

For names using "The", we would only use that if the name appeared as The Stockades in written text (not titles), as opposed to the Stockades. 20:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Badges of Justice by instance
Before I create it, is there an article or section under a particular article which lists the number of badges received with a full clear of BC instances? --Tiwuno 19:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Now exists at Badges of Justice by instance. Was unsure what categories to put it in though. --Tiwuno 20:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Beta site v2 :)
A new version of the 1.12 beta site is up ... please check it out and report problems on User:Kirkburn/Problems.

Things to be aware of:
 * Our own skin is coming - the current default is the same style (Monaco Gaming), but ours will be recoloured to WoWWiki's current
 * Any edits will be lost
 * Images are shared from this site, do not upload any on the beta site
 * The sidebar is fully editable (and also personally so), and will be turned into something fantastic ;)

I've also been having fantastic conversations about the social tools with the developers, and hopefully some excellent stuff should be able to come of it. They're extremely interested in this stuff, and are great guys.

We're almost there :) If you've got any questions, please do ask! 21:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks spiffy! Question for you.  Why have the common/uncommon items up on the sidebar?  I know you said it's editable, but will that be the default? Or are we just showing what you can put up there?  Wasn't able to login, so couldn't tell if I could change it.  And will the Village Pump have a link on the sidebar?  =)  -- 21:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * That's just the default - the two largest categories. That will change - http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Main_Page should give a better impression of it. 21:56, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Preliminary two thumbs up. ;) -- <ul style="font-size: 0.85em; margin: 0; padding: 0; list-style: none; list-style-type: none; list-style-image: none; display: inline; white-space: nowrap"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 22:11, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Cool! 01:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The yellow hurts my brain, could you tone it down a bit? Maybe push it closer to the orange bits in the logo.   02:40, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ignore the skin (mostly) for now :) I've updated the sidebar on the beta site btw. 18:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

No categories for user pages?
So, I put together a guide as a collections of sub-pages from my user page: Hunter's Guide to Karazhan.

Since it's a general-purpose guide for hunters about Karazhan, I put it in the Guides, Hunters, and Instance:Karazhan categories. I figured that would help newbie raider hunters find it and get use out of it.

Varghedin came along and removed it from the categories with a minor edit, "Don't include categories in user articles."

Really? I never saw that as a policy, style, guideline, or anything. Since it's a general-purpose article, not directly related to me, I thought the categories would be a good idea.

I put it in as a user article instead of a general article for a couple reasons. First, it's massive, with 11 sub-pages, 11 transcluded tables, and a navbox. It took some time and work to get all that to work together, which should not have happened out in a general page. Plus, it has a slightly non-neutral view. It goes with the conventional wisdom, while briefly acknowledging competing points of view. It doesn't go into much detail on those competing points of view, simply because the guide is already so damn long.

So, what should I do about this?

Is it really not OK to put the article in a regular category? If not, what mechanism should I use to help people find the thing?

Should I just move the whole thing out to the main name space and then put it into appropriate categories? I purposely built the thing with relative links, so that would be possible.... I'm a little worried about that, though. While it could benefit from edits from the general public, babysitting 23 links to root out the "low-quality" edits would be a bit of a headache.

-- Kathucka 21:56, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know about regular categories tbh. There's nothing wrong with your own user categories that's for sure. There is no policy or guideline for this, so i can't say if Vargedin is right or wrong in this case. I'd imagine the reason would be because of "cross-contamination" from the main namespaces to the userspace, where "quality control" is alot looser and not intended to be a public resource of information for wiki readers. But if that is reason enough remains to be decided upon and put in a guideline/policy before actions are taken to enforce it.
 * Keep in mind, if you want to move it into main namespace, it'll probably be going through alot of reworking and editing from any and every editor. It's no longer yours. -- <ul style="font-size: 0.85em; margin: 0; padding: 0; list-style: none; list-style-type: none; list-style-image: none; display: inline; white-space: nowrap"><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 22:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know about categories, but I DO know I've seen "So-and-so's guide to whatever" linked from main namespace pages at the see also section at the bottom. So I think it would probably be okay to link it from the bottom of the Kara page. However, it may be best to see what others have to say about it. -- 22:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Fandy gave User:Talgar special permission to put User:Talgar/Paladin Suggestions in the Paladin Category. It depends on who you ask, I think. I do not know of a rule of user categoization besides you can not put fan fiction anywhere else besides the Fan Fiction Category.-- 22:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't use the term "special permission", it's more of a judgement thing. If the article is good, it's okay, but we should encourage as much movement from the user namespace as possible. If someone writes an excellent personal guide, not a problem. 01:04, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Jimmy McWeaksauce
Was looking for him to screenshot, but he's no longer in the game as far as I can tell. From what I gathered he's a blizzard pawn used to help players out for test realms as well as when things are getting hairy in some instances. So he used to be in Naxx, but no longer there. Eastern Plaguelands too, to port you into Naxx. Gruul's used to have him to sell things as well. And he's currently flagged for a screenshot in Shatt's cat zone because he was porting people into Mount Hyjal for a little while. Are we still going to keep a page on him seeing as how he's a temporary npc? -- 05:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Add your observations to the page! We like being complete, so even if he were truly removed from the game (which, I don't think we've seen the last of him if he's been used in TBC), we'd tag his page with a template: T:Removedfromgame (for future reference). :) --Sky (t | c | w) 06:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * And dont' forget about his brothers Johnny McWeaksauce and Jebediah McWeaksauce. 06:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Wonder if it's a pun on McDonald BigMac's special sauce.... 06:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * And "Cookie" McWeaksauce.... -- 08:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Forgot about him... wonder if he's related... too old to be a brother, maybe the father. 20:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

WoWWiki Widget Exist?
Got a new Mac the other day and starting to play around with it when I decided to add more Widgets to it, so I went a-searchin. Amused, I was, to come across widgets for WoW! I quickly dl'd the one that searched thottbot/allakhazam/and wowhead's databases, and noticed that there wasn't any for WoWWiki. I personally love this site (as I hope you've been able to tell), so I thought it'd be awesome if someone made a WoWWiki Widget. I would make it myself, but it'd take a damn lot longer for me to make as I'd have to learn some code in the process. But in case anyone else has the skills, then please beat me to it. heh. Cuz I know it'll be a loooong time before I can get one to work myself. ;) -- 09:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Um, it's hiding. Let me go find it for you. --Sky (t | c | w) 22:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Woot! Guess I'll wait to learn how to make widgits until I find another need.  =) -- 08:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Help:Search#Browser_Searches --Sky (t | c | w) 22:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Tooltip JS now editable by all users
I've moved the JS files to a more public location. See for the pages themselves. Edits will still have to be approved by me (I will have to change the revision ID at User:Pcj/tooltip.js before the updated script goes live), but hopefully this will be more in the spirit of the wiki. -- 17:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Even though I don't know anything about JS, I want to say thanks Pcj :) I know some people had been complaining about not being able to edit it, so I think this was a really good gesture. -- 19:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Just glad I figured something out to allow me and others to edit it but prevent vandalism. -- 20:17, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Aye, nice solution. :p -- <ul style="font-size: 0.85em; margin: 0; padding: 0; list-style: none; list-style-type: none; list-style-image: none; display: inline; white-space: nowrap"><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 21:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Muy elegante! --Sky (t | c | w) 22:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I protected these  articles, so only registered users can edit/move them. The protection choices don't allow restricting moves to only admins for some reason, so in theory registered users could accidentally move them. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]]  Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 4:52 PM PST 7 Mar 2008
 * Only admins can move them now. -- k _d3 01:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, the checkbox was right there and I didn't notice it. Thanks k_d3. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 5:14 PM PST 10 Mar 2008

Rune of shielding?
When were the Greater and Lesser Runes of Shielding renamed to be Wards of Shielding? I see lots and lots and lots of server pages listing the old name... --Eirik Ratcatcher 00:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "01:58, 17 October 2007 Fandyllic (Talk | contribs) m (Greater Rune of Shielding moved to Greater Ward of Shielding: not a rune, but a ward; verified with wowhead and allakhazam, thottbot was wrong)" Probably then for both. I guess the pages that linked to it just never got changed with them.  =/  -- 08:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

WoWWiki and Wikia Gaming at SXSW!
Kirkburn, your friendly neighbourhood admin here!

I'm at SXSW Interactive in Austin, Texas (USA) - representing WoWWiki at the Wikia Gaming booth in the screenburn arcade area! Anyone in the area, drop by and say hello - we've got a scavenger hunt-type gaming going on where you have a chance to win $200 Amazon gift card. We're here Saturday and Sunday.

In other news, I spoke on a panel called "Edit Me! How Gamers are Adopting the Wiki Way" - check out the report on http://www.joystiq.com/2008/03/08/sxsw08-edit-me-how-gamers-are-adopting-the-wiki-way/ ... I think it went quite well :) Totally not used to seeing my name in lights though! A podcast video of the event should be going up at some point too. 21:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Update - a longer report can be found here! http://www.massively.com/2008/03/08/sxsw08-how-gamers-are-adopting-the-wiki-way/ 23:55, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Kirkburn looks more fierce than I remember... could be the black background... He's famous! --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 2:55 PM PST 10 Mar 2008


 * Which scares me ... 01:36, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The SXSW team has posted a link to the audio podcast of the recent panel (see below) - you can download it here. 01:36, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Laurlybot - Guild armory check
I have recoded User:laurlybot. The guild page armory check is working and seams stable. My questions is how often should this run. I'm considering once a month im not sure we need it to run more then that. Input? Laurly 21:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * User:Laurlybot/guild_bot
 * Yeah, once a month. -- 21:06, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm for once a week, as it enhances Wowpedia:Guild stubs. --Sky (t | c | w) 21:16, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * this is just checking guild armory. Another script can be set up to make sure all new guilds are tagged guild,and stub (if the page lacks required info) that can run weekly if you want.  We are just talking how often we want to check if a guild no longer exists in armory. Laurly 21:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, I know. :) --Sky (t | c | w) 21:28, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * How about i test it see exactly how long it takes to run against all the guilds. my guess is around 30 min. Then see how many guild pages actually get dumped each week.  Im still slightly worried armory will ban me if i run it every week.  maybe run a few a day so that all 1500 are split over the course of a week? Laurly 07:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Armory database lag really makes it so weekly is almost too much. Also, WP:GUILD timeframe for other oversight of guild pages is a month.  If anything, I would say twice a month at most. -- 14:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I am so totally against deleting those pages at all. It's called server history. You wouldn't also delete disbanded sports clubs and political parties from a wiki about a city/country... <span style="background-color:#223;border-top:1px solid #666;border-bottom:1px solid #666;padding-bottom:4px;"> [[Image:INV_Misc_PunchCards_White.png|24px]] <span style="color:#ff9900;font-family:verdana;font-size:11px;font-weight:bold;cursor:help;" title="My hovercraft is full of eels.">Armagon (User_talk:Armagon Special:Contributions/Armagon)  01:09, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Guild page policy states: Articles about disbanded or non existant guilds can and will be nominated for speedy deletion. If your guild has disbanded but you want to archive the article, please move it to the main author's User: namespace and remove and any guild-specific category.
 * If the author doesnt choose to move it then theres not much we can do. WP:GUILD Laurly 21:07, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * well, this sucks. Gonna move it then. <span style="background-color:#223;border-top:1px solid #666;border-bottom:1px solid #666;padding-bottom:4px;"> [[Image:INV_Misc_PunchCards_White.png|24px]] <span style="color:#ff9900;font-family:verdana;font-size:11px;font-weight:bold;cursor:help;" title="My hovercraft is full of eels.">Armagon (User_talk:Armagon Special:Contributions/Armagon)  22:47, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm maybe an idea would be to put them under the server page it is kinda server history. Might require a change in guild page policy though. But imo it still should be up to the author to move it not the bot. Laurly 23:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

how do u get rid of a profession?
-- Qordis 06:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

how do u get rid of a profession? please help me. i accedently got blacksmithing instead of mining.!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help me. i am a level 13 blood elf. what is ur name? my blood elf name is Qordis if u guys wanted to know.

thanks,
 * Qordis


 * Well this really isn't the place to ask, and if you had asked online on your server they probably would have answered, so for future reference, ask there. But if you go to your profession tab on your character sheet you'll notice that beside Blacksmithing there's a little red "no" symbol.  Looks like a circle with a slash through it.  Click on it and it'll let you unlearn that profession.  -- 07:45, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * For the future, see WP:WP for these type of questions (coughsubtlehintinnocentcough). --Sky (t | c | w) 22:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

thanks!! i'll try it.

Screenshots
Is it possible for when requesting a screenshot, in the tag we put a |  alliance/horde for those that are npcs in the respective cities? When doing screenshots I've noticed that it would have made life a lot easier if I had known that certain ones I'm not going to be able to get to (I'm Alliance). And it might make people more willing to help screenshot if they go to a page and aren't overwhelmed by how many shots are being requested, and instead can just choose to improve the site just a bit by doing one city. -- 07:52, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hrm, if I understand correctly you are wanting another field added to the screenshot template to differentiate screenies that are of Horde or Alliance - friendly NPCs or areas? Do you want this just to be noted on the screenshot request tag, or for it to be another subcategory of the image request zone categories? I am hesitant to further divide those categories, but it could certainly be done. Just give me a bit more info on what you want and I can try to accommodate :) -- 08:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I was going to say I didn't want another field, but then I realized, that I guess it needs it, huh? screenshot|zone is all it has right now. Bah.  I had in my mind that you can change the way it gets displayed like the cat tags.  If it's easier it can be another sub cat, but I really just wanted it displayed.  So it would look like Mob - Alliance or something to that effect.  Didn't realize it would be that much of a hassle, so unless anyone else cares, then just leave it be.  =/ -- 09:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * If you can't get to them, consult Wowhead and borrow their pictures. We do prefer home grown, but otherwise, if you can't get them, that's the place to go looking. =) --Sky (t | c | w) 22:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It's actually very easy to add, don't worry. I just wasn't sure what you had in mind, but I think I get it now :) I think it is certainly a good idea. When I have some time (which might not be until next week, unfortunately), I will try something and see what you think. -- 22:14, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Awesome, thanks! =) -- 00:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

"Feet Items"
Went touring some of the new/renamed categories, and ran across a couple things.

Category:World of Warcraft armor items has two types of subcategory: slots, and class. I was thinking that it would be useful to change sort order such that the classes (leather, plate, mail, cloth) ended up in one alphabetic letter, and the slots (back, chest, et al) in another. Wanted to run up a trial balloon before I changed it, though.

The category name Category:World of Warcraft feet items bugs the heck out of me (as I noted on the cats2fix page)... It's one of those weird English language things. "Feet" is plural. "Items" is plural. I cannot identify the language rule that tells me "foot items" is the correct choice, but there it is. --Eirik Ratcatcher 19:39, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Looking at it, I find also "hands", and "legs", but for some reason not "wrists". Gah! --Eirik Ratcatcher 19:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * "Feet items" always sounded wrong to me too. Another one that bugged me was "Off-hand" because it's just weird by itself.  *shrugs*  But as for the feet... not sure how it would be renamed to be pleasing to the ear.  -- 20:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * They were named to their exact item equivalents as seen on their tooltips, while doing away with capitalization. As for double pluralization, I don't believe there is an English rule, and even if there were, we could break it, right? Since English just... sucks at consistency. :) --Sky (t · c · w) 20:29, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * While I agree with feet staying as feet, I think hands items should remain "hand items" as well as legs items remain "leg items". To stay consistent with the others. Otherwise, wrist items and shoulder items will need to be converted to wrists and shoulders as well, to prevent confusion. 20:39, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Coobra: with my added comment I was pointing out that "wrist" was singular, "hands", "feet", "legs" plural. Sky: The important bit from that is that it "sounds off to me". I'm not alone (ie Sassy and lurkers). But thanks for the explanation on "why". I don't know if it rises to the "fixme" level or not. I just thought I'd bring it up for discussion. Sassy: " items" is what I find sounds best to me.

All: lest they be lost in the scrim... --Eirik Ratcatcher 23:46, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * We have "w.o.w. foot items", and "w.o.w. feet items" categories. We should have only one of those.
 * Is using sort order on "world of warcraft armor items" subcategories to separate "slot" vs "class" of enough value to pursue?


 * The sub categorization you suggested sounds fine to me. - 03:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Just for reference, i named them based on their slot names, rather than their more sensible names. Blizzard are inconsistant and it doesn't make much sense in English as you said. Hands, Legs and Feet vs. Wrist and Shoulder. Take your pick how you want to correct Blizzard's errors or not as the case may be. Using the actual slot naming is my prefered choice, but really they're all bad options, lol. -- <ul style="font-size: 0.85em; margin: 0; padding: 0; list-style: none; list-style-type: none; list-style-image: none; display: inline; white-space: nowrap"><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 03:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I presume "wow leather items" vs "wow leather armor items" was on the same basis? Is it too late to press for the latter?  --Eirik Ratcatcher 19:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I vote for keeping the cats named as the slots are in the actual game. It's the most consistent that way, despite the fact that the names sound a little funny. -- 04:01, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * As to why they sound funny Eirik, I think it may be because you're correct. I refer in this case to scientific units: foot pounds, newton meters, etc. --Sky (t · c · w) 04:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Coobra axed the "foot items" category, which when I caught it only had one item in it anyway. So that's out of the way. And the opinions are "2 yes, N abstain" on using l337 Sorting-fu on the subcategories. Easy enough to revert, should someone climb the walls about it. --Eirik Ratcatcher 18:37, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

More, specific category question
Here's two as much for Zeal and Kirkburn: in the category tree...  items -> equipable -> armor -> leather, leather is included also in (equipable) and (items). Please assume the w.o.w. prefix, items suffix. Also assume "leather" also applies to other armor classes... This impacts my doing sort-order tricks; I'd thought (armor class items) exclusively sub to (armor items). Doesn't mean the sort-order tricks are out, just that they have to be modified. --Eirik Ratcatcher 19:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * (back items) is included both in armor and equipable but not in items, yet the items within do not appear in any of the armor class categories. (Extend to some other similar categories.)
 * Why is (leather) extended up to (items), but (back) is not? (Is it an oversight?)
 * A similar case can be made for (leather) vs (armor).
 * I'm trying to keep out of this category stuff, but I will try to explain some of the discrepancies you see.
 * Back items (cloaks, etc.) are not classified as a particular armor type. The game does not distinguish between cloth, leather, etc. back items. Classes are only restricted from wearing back items by non-armor type requirements (level, profession, etc.).
 * From what I can tell, all the other armor types under Category:World of Warcraft items appear ( Category:World of Warcraft cloth items, Category:World of Warcraft mail items, Category:World of Warcraft plate items) along with Category:World of Warcraft leather items, so I'm not sure what the issue is.
 * Back items fall exclusively under armor, so they probably shouldn't appear directly under items.
 * --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:47 AM PST 12 Mar 2008
 * Not sure i understand what the issue is you're trying to describe.
 * Back items, as Fandy said, do not have armor types.
 * I added all the armor types to the item cats for quicker navigation, as it seemed a good candidate for such a shortcut. Equipable slot types (which back is one of) seemed a bit too vast to add there, so left them in the equipable cat, which is only one level down anyway. I did this with alot of cats, not just item ones, where i felt it was sensible and practical to do so. I thought most of them though would come later as and if needed once people got used to the system.
 * I guess armor (and weapons) could be added to the item cat too. *shrug*
 * -- <ul style="font-size: 0.85em; margin: 0; padding: 0; list-style: none; list-style-type: none; list-style-image: none; display: inline; white-space: nowrap"><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 05:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The discrepancy I was describing is: categories are propagated up, categories are not. I chose Back as a particular example because (as you both noted) it is not cross-categorized in an armor class. Which is to say, any given (eg) Hands item is one category down from (items), but any given Back item is two. Zeal goes on to explain that one, with the explanation I thought most likely.

I'm happy to leave the cats the way they are; or to have items not in (item); or to have added to (item). I just wanted to ask the rationales behind this, and make sure they were solid. And desired, useful, etc. --Eirik Ratcatcher 19:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Screenshots 2
While flying around and snapping screenshots, I randomly check on mobs that aren't on the list to see if they've got a shot. Some have the model shots as an image. Would you like me to replace them with in-game shots? Also finding ones that Laury tagged for the page to be overwritten. They don't have shots, so I've taken some of them. Please check before requesting screenie. =) -- 20:29, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * In-game shots are preferred, so if you see a model viewer screenshot, feel free to replace it. -- k _d3 20:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Model image < In-game screenshot. Few people check, and unused images tend to die.-- 20:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It would be good to upload it over the model viewer shot. :) --Sky (t · c · w) 21:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree about overwriting existing images - why bother? It just makes it harder if someone wants to subsequently wants to use both versions. If they're the same picture only altered slightly, then fine - but not entirely different pictures.
 * Regarding WMV pics, I'd keep them (as well) if they're particularly well made. 22:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I didn't ask for the removal of the WMV picture from the wiki itself, but I did replace one of them so far with screenshots. The WMV are generic pictures and thus aren't specific to that mob and area.  Where they're good for temporary pics to give the user a general idea of what the mob looks like, I did think they should be replaced if possible. -- 22:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * KB: Because then, we don't have to delete the extra one ;P. Plus, the WMV one is usually named the same as the mob, which is preferable in our case for screenshots. I personally don't like seeing "Medivh2.jpg" (not much to do in his case, except rename them to have better description), but if we can avoid it, so much the better. We have the old image in the archive of the new one, which is a bonus of uploading over; if we need to, we can resurrect the old one (which we cannot do currently with images). And I personally doubt that anyone will want to use a WMV image. --Sky (t · c · w) 01:55, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Category Links?
How does one make a link to a Category without having it default to the bottom of the page? I don't want to add anything to the cat page, just want to reference it. -- 00:35, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Use a colon right after the first two -- example [[:Category:Beasts (done by Category:Beasts ).  01:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Template sorting
So I just went through all the user templates (at least the ones in the category) and while in mid process I got to wonder if I should have done it a different way... See Category:User templates for how it's sorted now. Mid-process I began to think that the server templates and want templates should be together. What do you think? Change the sorting to (for example) "Want" instead of worgen,ogre,ranger,etc. Or just keep it how it is? ... If you're confused of how I explained that, let me know. 02:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The server templates and want templates could of course, be placed in their own categories. ;) --Sky (t · c · w) 02:55, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thats true... infact... I just might do that... at least with the server ones. 02:58, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Help with Disambiguation
So I've noticed an interesting case of ambiguity for the priest talent Unbreakable Will (talent) and the sword The Unbreakable Will pages. There is a difference, being the use of the word the in the title for the sword. What would be the best way to address this ambiguity? A disambiguation page or a one liner at the top of each page pointing to eachother?

18:06, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * With only two pages, my first choice would be a one-liner. With three, it's a little less certain.  --Eirik Ratcatcher 19:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Given that the two pages have (and should have) two distinct names, I wouldn't insert disambiguation notices into either; leave it as is. -- foxlit 20:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * A full disambiguation page would be more trouble than help, I think. However, I think a one-liner would be a very good idea. I could certainly see people looking for the item and forgetting the "The" was there and getting the priest talent. -- 20:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Assuming people know what they're looking for, they might as well type the name in correctly. :) -- foxlit 22:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * A One-liner has been added to Unbreakable Will (talent), as *I* have made that mistake before when looking for the sword... -- k _d3 22:49, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Empty Categories
When/how does a sub-cat in a category disappear when there's nothing in it? A bunch of the image requests cats have zones that no longer need anything in them, but the zone itself still exists. Like... Arathi Highlands, for example. -- 23:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * An admin would have to manually delete it. The only automatic part of categories is the list of articles tagged to appear in them. The categories themselves are statically created and deleted. -- k _d3 23:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If I made a list of all the ones that are empty, would someone delete them? Or are they going to stay as is incase someone else wants to add requests to the zone? -- 00:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Please don't delete them. If you do, when someone adds an image request for that zone, it will never be found - it will be added to a category that doesn't exist and will not be found as a subcategory of the main image request page. I admit that having empty subcategories is not ideal, but I don't really know of another way to keep the image requests organized by zone, which I feel is useful. -- 01:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Understood. It's just inconvenient to click on a zone and finding it empty.  I don't know enough to code anything here, but is it even possible to take the # of articles in that cat and have it displayed on it's description.  Like if Darkshore has 5 images requests can it's link say Darkshore Image Requests (5).  Or something like that?  -- 02:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I am actually still fairly new to wiki-code too. I haven't seen anything like that yet, but boy would that be useful! Can anyone give us a better response to this? -- 03:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * There's nothing like that that I know of that has been developed for wiki, as that would certainly require an extension. --Sky (t · c · w) 03:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)

Darn! Well, in that case, does anyone know of some other clever solution to the problem here? We basically want to be able to use the screenshot template to subcategorize screenshot requests by zone under the main category Category:Image requests. But we don't want there to be empty categories for those zones that don't currently have screenshots. At the same time, we don't want to delete those categories because if a screenshot is added to one, it won't be able to be found. Any ideas? -- 05:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll write some JS which will show if there are any entries in the sub-category. -- 17:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Pcj, you rock my socks :) -- 17:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, should be done...you'll need to purge your cache and reload the image requests pages...but now it should have a tooltip which'll tell you what you want. -- 19:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks :) I think that should solve the problem. -- 19:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Do not delete empty server guilds categories too. I tried marking a few of them and it was undone.-- 21:03, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Pre-TBC Raid Tactics update?
Hi, I'm a guild master on aerie peak realm of a horde guild that has just now ventured into raiding. From what little we've done so far it is clearly obvious that given the expanded content and level cap available in the Burning Crusade expansion, that certain precautions and preparations needed in certain endgame 60 raids, are either completely void, or are often altered due to the raised level cap. My guild, lacking any true hardcore raid experience, managed to zerg the entirety of UBRS (no tank) with 6 people, only 2 of which were actually level 70 (kind of a test run, we farm it nightly). Usually before I plan a raid I research bosses and the dungeon tactics to best adapt to them, only to too often discover that I have over-prepared or simply that certain rules do not apply for my raid group. I was curious if perhaps there could be given an update to pre-TBC raid encounters to show the level of players needed at whatever current level cap is (such as..... Molten Core is a 40 man raid for level 60, but can be done with an average geared group of 15 level 70s). I think while the tactics provided are worth preserving as they are most accurate given the pre-expansion era of a level 60 cap, but the actual occurence of a 40 man of level 60s doing these dungeons is something that won't exist on normal servers, these raids will be limited (barring the hopeful possibility of heroic mode for pre-TBC dungeons) to PuGs and Guild "Fun" events. So I am proposing that the raid tactics pages on pre-TBC bosses be updated to better reflect the diverse groupings you will encounter, it's not all just "A boss for 40 level 60s to fight". The release of TBC has antiquated the relevance of these tactics to normal servers as they currently stand. I think at very least there ought to be given some note to the tactics that they were written and intended for raid groups prior to the release of the expansion?

-- Vicera 10:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think this is a great idea. But, we need someone with experience raiding these instances at level 70 - which it sounds like you have, at least for some of them. If you and others who have this experience want to write some strategies pertaining to this subject, I think they really should replace the ones currently on those raid pages (with the ones there being moved to subpages). Because you are absolutely right in saying that those strategies are antiquated - they really are no longer applicable. I would be perfectly willing to help with the organization of the articles after this change, but unfortunately I don't have the experience to contribute any strategy for this subject. -- 17:14, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * With WotLK coming out soon, this problem will only accelerate. We should be prepared for more than just "pre BC" and "post BC".  You may be just the sort of author to design that format, Vicera.  How big do you think the writeups will be, for "over-amp'd raids"?  Big enough for their own pages?  Small enough to be a section? --Eirik Ratcatcher 20:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think that the original strategies should be entirely removed, though, if for no other reason than history... --Azaram 03:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd say keep the pages as they are and create subpages for info based on lvl 70, 80, etc. -- 04:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Quest list page format
Anyone interested in helping to decide a boilerplate format for quest list pages should check out the vote going on on the quest list project's talk page right now. There are some example pages up and input is needed. Keep in mind that the example pages are the product of a lot of previous discussion, so you may want to check out earlier content on the talk page before voting. Thanks all! -- 22:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Portals!
So, I've been working on some portals to replace the current Main Page (without affecting what is presented to a visitor too much). I have made four portals, which you can navigate between via tabs. (You may need to reload your CSS to see them properly).


 * Portal:World of Warcraft (based off the current Main Page)
 * Project:Interface customization (based off Wowpedia:Interface customization)
 * Portal:Warcraft universe (the really new and awesome bit)
 * Project:Community portal (based off Wowpedia:Community portal)

More are possible, depends on what people may request :)

Portal:World of Warcraft would become the site homepage (set via MediaWiki:Mainpage) and Main Page would redirect there. The only difference to a new visitor is a different page name (and a better one for search engines), the tabs and the lack of interface customization links in the main list (as the new portal is prominent). Oh, and the "Portal" namespace is, unsurprisingly, new - created earlier today.

The benefits? Consistent design across the portals, the addition of a portal dedicated to non-WoW info and a lot of expandability. Only the WoW portal is completely locked, since it's the most public one. This is by no means a final design - I still need to work on the talk pages, and cleaning up the code some more. Plus, of course, I'd love feedback on the design and the links present. I know the Community page is very red, for instance, and could probably be improved.

Depending on how long it is until the final parts of the upgrade (next week, all going well, and yes, I know you've heard that before), this could go live with the new skin. That may be preferable as it should allow for a more organised sidebar including portal links.

That concludes this presentation. Any questions? 03:56, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks great to me, Kirkburn :) One request - can the Wowpedia:Quest list project be added to the community portal page with the other projects there? I would add it myself but I'm not sure how (or if I am allowed) to edit the page. -- 06:05, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * By all means add it! :) 09:45, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Good job. It looks great, but I have some thoughts on it. To me, the Featured Critter on all four pages detracts attention from the Featured Article (Cute attracts clickings, do we need a chibi-Lothar to fix this?). Also, the WoW portal and Universe portal (Assumed to be for lore-centered projects) look a lot alike. There were requests, I think, for a Warcraft III focused wiki, so should that be separate from the universe portal? Anyway, this certainly organizes topics.-- 19:59, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The FC thing would be a difficult one to fix - I'm wanting to have a consistent header across each portal. I will have a think about how to deal with making the FA more prominent. If I have free time I could possibly redo the FA topics with WoW and Warcraft versions. Separating WC3 further is quite possible, but getting this done is just the first step :) 06:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Namespaces!
It's that time again :P Very soon we'll be in a place where I can freely pester about namespace tweaks, so I need a plan to present to our wonderful techies (who do so much more than many realise!).

From asking earlier on IRC, there were a few things that came up as wanted/needed. "Portal" was obviously just created (see above), so here are the others I know of:


 * "Spell:" - for the database style spell ID articles. Pseudonamespace "Spell:XXX" pages already exist, techs can deal with.
 * "Quest:" - for the quest articles. Pseudonamespace "Quest:XXX" pages already exist, techs can deal with.
 * "API:" - for the UI API articles. Only pages called "API_XXX" already exist, so this would probably mean users doing the moving.

I know of one othe tentative namespace which I'm not sure what support there was for.


 * "Fanfic:" - tentative fan fiction namespace

I think it would be cool and allow another part of our community to flourish. Apart from community fanfic, it could allow users to have fanfic outside their user namespace and keep ownership of them (if wanted) via templates. There are several fan fiction supporting wikis out there we can take tips from.

Any others, or opinions on those above? 04:05, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Taking them outside the user namespace, will there be other guidelines aside from those listed so far? Like how mature the content can be to be listed on that space?  -- 04:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh sure, yeah, we'd probably have to tweak the policies a bit. 04:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * A Fanfic Namespace reopens a huge can of worms. So much that, if you used a buzz saw to bait your hook and wasted several, you would still have plenty. Do you really think it could work? Not just the policies, but the whole idea...-- 20:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Why did we create new namespaces for 3 pages worth? /lesigh. Anyway, I would suggest bringing this conversation to Wowpedia:Namespaces, as well as an addition to the site message bar. --Sky (t · c · w) 21:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sky, because it would be silly to have them all under Wowpedia: with portal at the end of their name. They're not the same type of page as a Wowpedia: page, which are generally informational about the wiki. 02:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Namespaces should be created when there is need for them, which only having three pages does not demonstrate that need. Namespaces should not be created for such a small need. --Sky (t · c · w) 21:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably a "Data" namespace, to avoid the problem caused by Laurlybot subpages (article count doesn't check outside main namespace) and possibly usable for Adys's OpenWDB project. -- 22:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Night elf can't wisp underwater to body
stuck in pool in blackfathom deeps cant go underwater to get to body tried pitching all the way down no luck -- Drutgib 16:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you try holding down your left and right mouse buttons at once, then facing down the waters?-- 16:39, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Future reference, questions dealing with the game itself go in the Warcraft Pump page. 20:12, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Also you'd probably find an answer quicker by asking the general chan in game or by petitioning a game master and telling them you're stuck. -- 20:53, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Question on Laury Requests
The Laurybot tags a lot of pages with "Please fix potential issues and remove this notice." What did it decide was a fix that was needed - only race? Most have "Unknown" as their race, was that the only thing it wanted fixed before removing the request? Or was there something else she was looking for as well? Just looking to see how much needs to be added before that request can be removed. -- 20:52, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think Laurlybot tags all of it's automatically generated pages with that stub. There are a lot of errors inherent in automatically generating content that need to be checked, including the problem you mentioned - not having a race. Sometimes the pages are perfectly fine, but they all do need to be checked. -- 22:47, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Great! So if I'm working on a page, say for screenshots.  And I fill in the race, related categories to that race, and anything else that's blank that can be filled in, then I can delete the request?  Leaving perhaps a stub instead if it needs/can be fleshed out more.  -- 23:07, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds correct to me :) -- 02:29, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * If you would just read the tag, you'd find the link to a list of issues that it wants you to fix. :) -- foxlit 11:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Really never occurred to me to click on that ~link. *rotf* Thanks for pointing that out.  ;)  --
 * The issues are mainly with race,sex and a picture. I haven t been able to find a place to rip this info accurately.  Well that and the fact that riping the picture along with all the data would be over kill i think.  Humans need to have something to do. Laurly 20:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I some cases you might want to replace the Laurlybot stub with Stub/NPC, if it did not fill in such things as quests related to, recipes/skills trained by, or stuff sold by the NPC (the only thing the bot doesn't do, I believe is fill in recipes/skills trained; i.e. Borgus Steelhand). --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 1:51 PM PST 17 Mar 2008

Graphics are not good

 * Moved to Warcraft pump

WW Problems?
Is the wiki having some issues today? Just had a MAJOR problem getting to pages on the wiki. Took about 2 min for the pages to load. Every other site I went to was fine. -- 22:11, 16 March 2008 (UTC) -- 22:11, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

No PvP server or PvE server nor contrasting pages.
I recently rerolled on a PvP server (level 27 now!) from my old PvE server. While I debated starting on a PvP server, I looked around here to find a page comparing and contrasting the two types of servers and there don't seem to be any pages like that - nor are there any pages dedicated to simply "PvP Server" or "PvE Server". This is listed somewhat under "PvP flag, but some people won't think to look there because they are looking for "server" rather than "flag".

It's minor, but on a PvE server then names when you move from place to place are in white unless you enter an opposite-faction capital, only then is it red. On a PvP server I noticed that "safe" zones are white lettering, contested zones are orange, and opposite faction safe zones are red.

There's other small things, too. On a PvP server you find a lot fewer people standing AFK on roads (very common on PvE), and then there's the little tricks people use to coax your PvP flag to active on a PvE server - like challenging to a duel with your Flag up, then ganking the other person after the duel when their flag is on and their health is low.

-- Pittsburghmuggle 23:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * PvE and PvP. What exactly are you looking for? Differences between the two? 23:58, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Aha! I'd been searching for PvE Server and PvP Server which just brought up lists of the servers.  But yes, I was mostly looking for a page comparing and contrasting the two.  These do better than what I was searching for. Thanks!--Pittsburghmuggle 00:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I redirected PvE Server to PvE realm and PvP Server to PvP realm. I filled in the target articles and added links to Pros and Cons sections of PvE and PvP for some comparison. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 8:39 AM PST 18 Mar 2008

Help with User page
Are there any guides on making your talk page, adding images and all off that,I know how to do most stuff about editing pages and adding stuff but I have absolutely no idea how to start making my talk page, so if anyone has some time to explain some basics about making it, or point me out to some guides, I'd appreciate it. Bajo 20:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Your talk page is simply for others to communicate with you. However, your user page is where the action is. As for guides to making it, I've never seen one myself, I just visited other user pages for ideas. Free feel to use mine as an example if you like.  20:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ahem. -- 20:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Or see the crazy man's page above me. =) 21:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yar, what I did when i wanted to make mine was to scroll through this page and find the people that were most talkative on it. Probably meant they've been doing the stuff awhile, and then went to their pages to see what they had and how they got it.  I found the Category:User templates to be a lot of fun.  =) -- 00:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Try browsing the user category for ideas. --<span style="font-size: 0.85em; font-family: arial, 'comic sans'; padding: .2em .3em; border: 1px #504c50 solid;background-color: #000000"> DuTempete  talk  |  contr  00:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm one of those unimaginative sorts; instead of using my User page as an "about me", I'm mostly using it to keep track of what I'm working on, and what I want to do eventually. --Eirik Ratcatcher 01:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Extra "type"?
Was wondering what the extra "type=" was for in the mobbox. I was going through the help the "bot editing requests" category, and noticed the lots had that extra. Brain Eater is an example. Decided to stop editing and deleting them since they might actually serve a purpose. I typed nonsense into the extra one, tho, and didn't see that it did anything. If it's a bot going through to generate these, or someone's copy/paste template, can that extra type be deleted? -- 04:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The extra type is pointless. You can safely delete them. -- 04:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, for the mobbox the first Type= is for elite, and the second type= is for Humanoid, beast, etc... It's been preferred that if you see a mobbox to turn it into npcbox and turn the 2nd type= into creature=.  05:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Coobra, please check the actual template before spouting off the wrong answers. There is only one type variable in T:Mobbox. But yes, npcbox is preferred, since mobbox is really just a hook. -- 05:34, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, right mobbox uses elite= for elite... Well thats all you had to say Pcj, didn't have to be an arse about it. 05:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I did already say that, before you attempted to correct me. :P -- 05:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok then, how about this:
 * Actually, for the mobbox the first Type= is for elite, so if the mob is elite change Type= to Elite=, and the second type= is for Humanoid, beast, etc... It's been preferred that if you see a mobbox to turn it into npcbox and turn the 2nd type= into creature=, but keep the first type= as type=.  05:52, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * ...there is only ONE type variable for T:Mobbox. -- 05:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thats what I just said.  05:59, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, misread. :P Getting a bit snappy, should probably go sleep now. Sorry, carry on. -- 06:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * In the start i only had laurlybot set up to use npcbox about half way though generating a bunch (1000 or so) i found T:Mobbox so i added code for it to figure out if it was an npc or a mob. Unfortunately i didn't check it every well i assumed .... that the two had the same variables passed. Well they dont.  That is where your double type and other messed up areas you have found come from.  IMO both should have the same fields so that they can be interchanged.   I was thinking about reworking both templates to work the same and then have the bot go and clean them all up.  Laurly 07:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * To change T:Mobbox, you'd have to change all the articles which use it. -- 14:20, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could have a bot to mark articles with bad mobbox usage with a special stub? --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 8:36 AM PST 18 Mar 2008

Help with leatherworking recipes page?
First of all, I'm a newbie at this, so apologies for both my naivete and if I've posted in the wrong place :)

Is there a better place to ask if you're having trouble setting up a page? Assuming not, I'll describe my problem...

I have been working on revamping Leatherworking_patterns, which currently only lists less than half the recipes. I've compiled a table of all of them, added vendors and drop sources and requirements and other useful stuff...

The test page is in User:W.woods/Sandbox1. I know the formatting still needs some prettying up, and before I'm done I'll probably move the various tables out to separate pages and transclude them back in. But that's not the current problem...

It seems my extra info gives the server a heart attack. A short way into the Master Leatherworking table, it stops rendering all templates, and instead displays the wording "Template:Loot", "Template:NPC", etc. It still renders the rest of the page, and processes internal links correctly... just without templates formatted. If I delete some of the earlier stuff, more of the later page then renders, suggesting it's just too many templates for the server to handle. I didn't think I'd added that much more than some of the other recipe pages, such as Alchemy_recipes, but maybe I have.

I'd really like it to have the full list of recipes on the one page, much like all the other professions. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can improve efficiency and get it to work without removing useful data? Or am I going to have to split it up into separate pages? I've tried moving out tables to separate files and transcluding them back in, but (as expected) that doesn't help. Using the item template instead of loot only makes the problem much worse.

Thanks for your help :)

-- W.woods 12:59, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * User:W.woods/Sandbox1, I'll have my offering of troll souls now. :) -- foxlit 13:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Er, it's now working properly. I don't know if you or someone else did something, but I'm otherwise at a loss to explain it! Still, feedback would be still very much appreciated, thanks :) -- W.woods 15:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * User:W.woods/Sandbox1 looks more than good enough to replace Leatherworking patterns. Thanks for all the hard work! Contributions like yours are what make WoWWiki so much better. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 8:31 AM PST 18 Mar 2008


 * Looks much better than what is currently up. However, I do have a few suggestions:
 * Move the table of contents to the top (if you don't know how, just put _TOC_ wherever you want the table of contents to be)
 * Separate the apprentice/journeyman/expert/artisan recipes into separate sections, rather than just separate parts of the table, so that they can be navigated to by the table of contents
 * Regardless, great work on this :) -- 19:20, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * That's an awesome table. I do agree with Jiyambi about putting the TOC up there with access to the Apprentice/Journeyman, etc.  Because that is an incredibly long table.  I like that it also shows us how many patterns/mobs aren't in the Wiki.  More work to do!  =D -- 22:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks for all your kind words and advice :) I've now swapped it in to Leatherworking_patterns. There are some minor things I think could be formatted better, though I'm not sure how. I've put them on Talk:Leatherworking_patterns, anyway. -- W.woods 15:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Class related pages are terrible......
When I first started browsing WoWWiki, most of the time I used it as a resource for information about raid bosses. The description of the fights and strategies/tips suggested are usually very useful and well written. Then I began editing some of those pages from time to time, but not much editing was needed for those pages overall.

One day I surfed other WoWWiki pages aimlessly, and arrived at some paladin pages. It became another story. Many of them were terribly written, out-of-date, or full of wrong information. E.g. it was repeatedly mentioned that protection pallies need strength and mp5; a "smart" guy who obviously hadn't played a tankadin to 70 made up several rubbish prot tanking sets such as a "spell damage" set with a in it; sample retadin specs that don't even have Sanctity Aura, etc.

Similarly, hunter pages have the same problem, though not as severe as that of paladins. I haven't checked the rest but I don't think they will look much better.

As a prot paladin and BM hunter in game myself, I tried my best to help and spent the good part of last few weeks editing many of those pages. More than 20 pages up to now. Nevertheless, at least 5 of those are incomplete and certainly there are more pages out there.

What I want to say is:


 * 1) Can we all pay a bit more attention to those class related pages? I guess the raid bosses pages are the most popular, though I don't know how can I confirm that. Yet I believe people also read those class related pages. (Well, if anyone can tell me that no one actually read those pages, it is good that I don't need to edit them from now on. =/ ) Maybe it is a bit late as WotLK is coming, but can be at least clean up those things that will still be useful in WotLK and remove things that are simply wrong?
 * 2) Of all those pages, paladin talent builds page is especially horrific. Reading the old discussion there, the page had long been heavily bombarded by redundant/wrong/useless builds with randomly made-up build names and highly subjective/personal descriptions. I'm no expert at holy/ret builds, so I only helped edit the prot builds section. Nevetheless, random people still keep adding random redundant/wrong/useless builds, even signed it on the article. Can't we have any ways to prevent this from happening over and over again????

WakemanCK 04:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * LOL, just as I was typing, another guy added another terrible build and comment:

''Option 4: A build that focuses on what are most likely the important thing for a paladin tank, defensive talents, mana conservation, and reactive aggro production. Almost no aggro will come from melee, seals, and judgements as a pally, except maybe Judgement of Crusader raising holy damage, so I skipped reckoning, conviction, precision, and 1h spec. Improved SotC and Imp Blessing of might are for helping the group's dps in hopes that you don't go down on mana. Benediction is needed if you're in a tight spot and need a seal up, but more than helping group DPS and saving mana, those talents are place holders so you can get Deflection and Improved Retribution Aura. REMEMBER, RET AURA HELPS A GREAT DEAL MORE THAN DEVO AURA WHEN TANKING, KEEPING AGGRO AND MAYBE DYING IS A LOT BETTER THAN DROPPING AGGRO AND DEFINITELY DYING. Tank, option 4 (0/44/17)''


 * He thought Seal & Judgement of Righteousness do not help with aggro?
 * While he emphasized he wanted this build to be good at building aggro, he skipped 1-hand spec and precision. Ok, skipping precision is "acceptable" if you have very good reason, but he definitely hadn't read the description of 1-hand spec carefully.
 * Imp Blessing of might for the benefit of the group??? Sounded like he had too much points to spend and didn't know where to put them. This is the first time I find someone think his tankadin build has more than enough talent points since 2.3!!! (BTW, if you don't know, a 5/5 Imp Blessing of Might gives the target a wonderful addition of 44 AP more than regular BoM.)
 * I have no idea what he want to do with Imp Hammer of Justice in raid. He hadn't even read my comment about this talent at the "common pitfalls" I typed at the end of that subsection a few days ago.
 * He can't even spell "aggro".

I don't know if this is a good idea but I might leave a line to him later today. I'll try to be as polite as possible. Hopefully he will understand. WakemanCK 05:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I read the other pages, and help fix them when I can. I dunno anything about paladins, so I can't really help there... the big problem with the build thing is that it's all incredibly subjective. I have my build for my druid which is not the 'standard' feral one, because it makes me, in my opinion, more flexible. (One quick example: natural shapeshifter gives me the ability to shift, cast a few heals, and shift back without being OOM). On the main character pages, there should be at most one dead-basic example build of each kind (the cookie-cutter if there is one), and a link to the pages where people can put their random tinfoil hat ones... --Azaram 05:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Azaram hit the nail on the head there, and I think his suggestion is a good one. As far as generating interest in improving those pages, you could try making a project (maybe start out as a personal project until you get some interest in it). -- 05:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * And he's right in saying a lot of the builds are subjective. You might think one way to play a spec is correct, and others will have a completely different opinion.  I like Jiy's idea of making it a project, because you'll get more input that way while members of that class explains why they did something one way, and it can be argued/discussed on that page.  Instead of undoing each other's revisions.  You'll probably garner some attention since builds are somewhat fun to mess with.  =) - 05:41, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the comments. I agree that builds can be subjective. This is good. In the old time, you could look at 100 rogues and found that 90 of them were using builds copied from the few standard "cookie-cutter" builds. Now is different. Blizz tried to make every talents somewhat useful at least in certain situations. So we see a lot more slight variations between different people builds. Just like what I mentioned in Paladin builds. But for a specific task, such as tanking, there are some talents that are essential, some that are optional but useful, some that are less useful, and some that are completely useless. I think I had already pointed that out there. The 3 samples builds I put down there are by no mean always the best builds or the only builds. I don't mind if someone post another build that is well-constructed, and not redundant, not similar to the one already there. However, if everyone changed one or two talents and post it there, there can easily have 10 or even 20+ protection builds there, each have only some small variation from several others. Even worse, some builds are simply terrible by containing talents that you can never find good use for them when tanking, like the one I quoted. Show this builds to any experienced tankadins and they can easily spot what's going wrong. I can understand if you guys not playing tankadin don't know why the one I quoted is very bad. But this is the problem. People reading the page won't know either. Some may even copy and use it, because they believe in WoWWiki!


 * Sorry for the lengthy paragrah again. Just to clarify my points. Azaram's suggestion is actually good. If there is no better option find, I'll try to do it later. Though it is more a "workaround" rather than solving the problem. I had thought of starting a project actually but I had already felt exhausted after all the editing in the past few weeks. Besides, it is not only the paladin pages I'm talking about, but I believe all class related pages, and not only talents but also things like gear, game play, etc, need more attention in general. Right now only warlock have an active project. I'll need 24hrs 7days non-stop if I need to work on projects for the rest. So I hope someone else can pick up the job. WakemanCK 09:37, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * What you might do is a skeleton tree of the talents that seem to be generally agreed as necessary for X role (like thick hide for a druid bear tank. This is going to be subjective again, but one should probably be able to figure out at least the core abilities, then say 'this 0/25/0 build is the basic druid PVE tank tree, leaving 35 points for customization. See druid builds for more' (Note; numbers pulled out of butt. And I used druid as I am one). I am not heavy into theory, and I do tend to have different ideas of how things go than many/most people, so I may not be the best to totally rewrite pages, but I will help where I can. --Azaram 12:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry but there really is little variance allowed in end game builds. What could be done is to label raid builds versus fun/farm builds.  Simply put, good raiding guilds aren't going allow YOUR build in, you either fit the requirement or take a hike.  15:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sharlin, your opinion is waaaay out there. Sure there are some guilds that have that opinion, but it isn't the truth.  I know this is off-topic, but I can't stand this narrow-minded, negative attitude, and will tell off anyone that displays it. --<span style="font-size: 0.85em; font-family: arial, 'comic sans'; padding: .2em .3em; border: 1px #504c50 solid;background-color: #000000"> DuTempete   talk  |  contr  00:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * LOL, your just clueless then. Raid guilds don't care if you think they are narrow minded.  They don't care if you want to tell them off, your not playing with them and they are going to most likely be doing content you won't.  Your personal feelings don't count.  Get used to it.  Its a game.  There are rules.  The people who raid at the top are the mini-maxers of WOW.  I certainly don't subscribe to their play style but I know their rules, understand their rules, and could play by them if I wanted to.
 * Face it, you cannot adhere to spec requirements why would they trust/expect you to adhere to any other requirements? The fact is they don't have to.  There are many other people out there much more willing to play how its needed to be done to experience the game more fully.  Its like signing up for the military and balking at the hair cut and uniform...  I mean, get flipping real.  If your not going to participate at their level then shut the hell up.  Your opinion is meaningless to them and me as well  10:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * One of the reasons I have no intention of being in a 'good' raiding guild again. I already have a job, I don't want to pay for another one. If a build doesn't fit my playstyle, it isn't fun; if a game isn't fun, why play it? I know arms and fury warriors who successfully tank things. There isn't One True Way to do anything. --Azaram 02:12, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you, your understand fully. The game is a blast regardless how you choose to play... and many of us don't need a game to turn into a job.... we are just mature enough to not declare raiders negative minded simply because that person isn't willing to compromise his play standards to adhere to the requirements - IOW selfish to an extreme  10:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sharlin, mind your attitude. DuTempete was disagreeing with your view that all raid guilds tell you exactly what build to have. Maybe the top few do, but this wiki is not here to serve the elite raiders, it's for everyone. 12:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Fine, lets put it more direct. GOOD RAIDING GUILDS.   Not the namby pamby "oh we raid KARA".  Anyone can raid Kara.  If your beyond that then non-standard builds are not going to be allowed.  I know the wiki isn't here to serve elite raiders, doesn't mean he can spout off in ignorance either.  They are narrow minded yes, but that is because their focus is strong.  To call that a negative attitude when they don't permit non-standard builds is pure ignorance, if not arrogance.  Sorry, its their group, they make the rules, and those doing the 25 man end game content can't afford to compromise because someone has a hissy that their build/class isn't needed or desired.   12:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Enough of this, let's stay on topic shall we? 12:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sharlin, I'll continue this on your talk page. --<span style="font-size: 0.85em; font-family: arial, 'comic sans'; padding: .2em .3em; border: 1px #504c50 solid;background-color: #000000"> DuTempete  talk  |  contr  16:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I understand that you feel that a lot of the class pages are substandard. But you seem to know a lot about your class, and were at least willing to help improve those pages.  The same could have probably been said for those doing the warlock project.  So yes, you might not be able to do all of them, but that's the spirit of the Wiki, right?  It's always under some kind of construction.  So play your part and fix that which you know, and get others involved if you think it's too overwhelming, or want additional input.  If it seems to be a success, then perhaps others will follow suit with their classes.  Like someone once told me when I started helping: "If you feel things are not how they should be, step up and improve it. There's over 53,000 articles... everything can't be changed in a day." ;) -- 23:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * WakemanCK, I completely agree with you about this stuff. But, I'll reiterate that some things are subjective, and although you may not agree with them, you should try to be as open to others' opinions as possible.
 * As I've created the Warlock project, I think each class should have similar projects, and I'm actually brainstorming on a cluster of projects, including class projects. You'll hear more from me on that when I have the concept more solid.  Until then, I think you should take the initiative and create the Paladin and Hunter projects, if you have a passion for those classes.  --<span style="font-size: 0.85em; font-family: arial, 'comic sans'; padding: .2em .3em; border: 1px #504c50 solid;background-color: #000000"> DuTempete   talk  |  contr  00:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Instead of having people spin off projects for each individual class I think ya'll need a project to set the standards for each page within each class. Each class page; talents, abilities, builds, and such; needs to be in a consistent format.  Until then your just going to end up with the mess it is now  10:49, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sharlin, this is exactly what the class projects are for. If you'll look at the warlock project, you'll see that we've concentrated a great deal of effort into consistent formatting.  There was a lot of effort outside my project to improve consistency as well, as that is when most of those boilerplates were created.
 * As far as consistency between classes, I'm not sure that's necessary, and I'd like that to be something the group working on the specific class project decides. Obviously, the formatting will be almost identical, but I don't think there's any reason there shouldn't be room for a little variation, if that's what the group thinks is necessary.  Who knows, they just might figure an idea that's better than the one already existing in another class's pages. --<span style="font-size: 0.85em; font-family: arial, 'comic sans'; padding: .2em .3em; border: 1px #504c50 solid;background-color: #000000"> DuTempete   talk  |  contr  17:17, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Having a project to set general standards would be very ineffective unless there was someone to consistently enforce those standards. That's not the job of the admins and I doubt anyone else would want to do it. Class projects help to focus enforcements of standards among those who are interested and knowledgeable about those particular classes. Also, having too much focus on high-end raiding is a mistake, in my opinion. Class info pages should just give summaries of types of gameplay (solo, small group, rep grinding, raiding, etc.) and some good ways to reach certain objectives in only a general sense. Class subpages and specific pages for particular goals should just be linked to class pages and put in the appropriate categories. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 11:27 AM PST 20 Mar 2008


 * So in other words, what is being attempted with Warlocks is pointless? Who is going to protect the work being done there?  Oh, the person who did it.  So if he gets tied up or stops doing it all those who have special roles here are off the hook.  In other words, do what you want because no one is really going to stop you unless its straight up vandalism  13:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually I found a set of talent builds I like. The Shaman talent builds are very clean.  While some of the writing is suspect the general layout if very well done.   11:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

What would you like to see in a WoW Timeline?
I'm working on an interactive Timeline as a personal project, spanning from WoW's initial release to now, and wanted to know what sort of things you all think would be interesting to see on there. Currently I've got the patch release dates, arena season durations, and additions of new content (Dungeons, BG's, ect). This is more focused on actual events, not lore, but I might do a Lore one later if there's interest.

So what other sorts of in-game and out-of-game events would be a good addition?

-- Syzgyn 06:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Cool! You got the ones I would have thought of initially. For lesser ones... what about the different seasonal events (because some repeated, and some didn't - ie scourge invasion), blizzcon, is it too much to see when different servers went live?, expansion releases (yeah i know there'll only be 2). K, ran out of ideas. ;) -- 08:07, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Blizz made this official one, but it is outdated. You could gain some ideas from it.-- 20:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

New tooltips configuration options
You can now also configure tooltip display in Special:Preferences, as well as the old Special:Mypage/wowwiki.js method. This should make it more accessible for most of you. Let me know if you encounter any bugs. -- 17:27, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Neato. You know what else would be a cool?  An option to make item links link to your DB site of choice instead of the wiki.  I find that I never read item pages, I only open them to get to the wowhead link.   19:30, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm...that would take some thought. -- 19:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This is now implemented for items. Say you use Wowhead.  Put http://www.wowhead.com/?search= in the external database field. Let me know if you find any problems. -- 20:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * /wuv. You should put examples for the "big three" on that prefs page so people can quick copy/paste in the one they want.   08:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * For some reason I'm not finding the option anywhere in the preferences... --Azaram 04:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Try purging your cache and refreshing. -- 04:38, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Reforming Paladin talent builds page
As concluded from the previous discussion, I'll move most of the current content in Paladin builds page to another new page. The new paladin talent builds page will be as clean and simple as possible, containing only incomplete sample builds consisted of some core talents only. I'll add some instructions at the top of the page but my English is not very good, so please help to see if it is ok:

''Instructions to WoWWiki editors: In order to keep this page precise and concise, please do not add subsections or complete builds here. For those who are interested in contributing their own builds, please add them to Paladin talents discussion. Any complete builds found on this page will be moved to Paladin talents discussion.''

Does it sound ok?

On the discussion page, I'll add instuctions at the top like this:

''This page contains builds submitted by individual WoWWiki editors. Their accuracy is not guaranteed, so read them with cautions. For those who want to contribute their own builds here, please add a new subsection under the corresponding section. Please also feel free to add comments to others' builds.''

Is this ok? I'm not very used to writing authority style thing, so plz help rewriting it if needed. :P

p.s. I checked out the user page of the one who added that terrible prot paladin build. Maybe I need to forgive the terrible quality of the build, because that guy spent only a few minutes to make it up. As well as the other builds he "contributed". Good lord!

WakemanCK 03:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * WakemanCK, your English is very good! As far as translation goes, you were almost perfect, the only thing being that "caution" is never plural.  What is your native language, and how long have you been speaking English?
 * As far as the content goes, I think for Paladin builds you can just leave that it at "...please do not add complete builds...;" subsections are just a matter of formatting and if it suits the page, we shouldn't restrict anyone for changing up the formatting a bit. Otherwise, I think your point there is a good one.
 * The only other comment I have about your ideas is that your new page may be better titled Sample paladin builds or done as a subpage of the builds page like so: Paladin builds/Samples or Paladin builds/Sample healing builds, Paladin builds/Sample dps builds, and Paladin builds/Sample tank builds.
 * I also think you may want to take into consideration that the person you're so openly insulting, here on the pump, is just as able to read your comments as the rest of us. In fact, he or she most likely is.  I know we all lose our tempers, and I'll be the first to admit that my Italian/Cuban temper is frighteningly close to the surface during midterms, as can be seen.  All the same, we get less done at each others' throats.
 * Your attitude about improving the wiki is great, WakemanCK, keep it up! --<span style="font-size: 0.85em; font-family: arial, 'comic sans'; padding: .2em .3em; border: 1px #504c50 solid;background-color: #000000"> DuTempete  talk  |  contr  04:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I'll start working on it. :) WakemanCK 02:09, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Please, don't make umpteen new pages. We don't need separate pages for each talent build.  Just clean up what we have.  We certainly don't need a sample paladin builds or paladin builds.  Just replace the current talent builds page with a page in a format that is widely accepted.  For a model I would suggest something similar to the Shaman talent builds as it is very clean  14:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * More comment, as stated on the discussion page. Don't bother unless your going to make a change that is actually noticeable.  Frankly the one linked in the dicussion page of the real article isn't much of an improvement.  Its a CF as much as the original... unless of course there is some super secret version hiding out there  14:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

A couple of missing NPCs.
I ran into these in Netherstorm, doing Teleport This!. The demons that you control are the Ironspine Forgelord and the Cyber-Rage Forgelord, and neither of them show up here. Was trying to figure out how to get one of the bots to do the gruntwork, but it seems that requires IRC, which I don't do. --Azaram 09:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Taging a npc page with will put it in a categories that User:laurlybot rips from and then generates NPC's.  But... im recoding the bot from the bottom up. Currently working on the quest module once thats done i will start on the npc module.  So you can tag it now if you want but it will be a few weeks before the bot does it.  You can tag quests by useing  quest bot is in testing now hope to have it running by next week.  Laurly 09:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I added info for, and Mental Interference Rod. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]]  Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 9:54 AM PST 21 Mar 2008
 * Beginning to think Fandyllic is a bot. :-D Thanks... --Azaram 02:10, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Im a Nubcake
I know I'll be tought of as a complete nubcake moron for asking this, but I've been trying to link my expansion idea to the Expansion Ideas page, and I just can't figure out how to do it! Can someone pwease help this poor n00b? Banana Blaster 04:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure which idea you refer to, but all the links are on the page Expansion ideas. To link them just hit the "Edit this page" tab on the top of the page, and add your page name in the proper place using  by  . Hope this helps.   04:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Scratch that, apparently there's a template you can use fanfic user idea to add the info. 04:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the advice, but it turns out my problem was that I had a space in between the / and the idea name in the pages URL that prevented me from linking it Banana Blaster


 * Ah... yea I was going to move that for ya.. or at least mention it to ya, but I didn't.. =/ 22:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Old Hillsbrad Foothills
So the instance name for it is Escape from Durnholde Keep, right? The "see here for information about this instance" is titled EfDK, but the Category for all of the items is Old Hillsbrad Foothills? Is there a reason for it? Can we redirect them so that if they go looking for one they find the other? -- 06:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Opening the Dark Portal/Black Morass items too -- 06:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Funny thing is nearly every refers to the place as Old hillsbrad, not once have I heard the other... That was probably the reason behind it. 07:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Black Morass and Old Hillsbrad Foothills are the zone names. The instances and encounters are Escape from Durnholde Keep and Opening of the Dark Portal. It's why i typicaly slap people for calling the instance BM in WoW.
 * It makes the most sense to cat things by the zone rather than the instance. -- <ul style="font-size: 0.85em; margin: 0; padding: 0; list-style: none; list-style-type: none; list-style-image: none; display: inline; white-space: nowrap"><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 18:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Right if you look at WoW's Instance Site as well as WoWWiki's You'll see both named in the funky way they are. I just found it odd that for those particular 2 instances, it didn't follow the naming convention which just tacked the "items" at the end.
 * Is there a reason we have to post before showing cats at the bottom of a page? And not be able to see them in previews?-- 20:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * New cats work fine in previews :S -- <ul style="font-size: 0.85em; margin: 0; padding: 0; list-style: none; list-style-type: none; list-style-image: none; display: inline; white-space: nowrap"><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_zeal.png|User:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_talk.png|User talk:Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_contribs.png|Special:Contributions/Zeal </li><li style="display: inline;"> http://www.zealvurte.co.uk/temp/sig-av/wiki_end.png|User:Zeal </li></ul> 04:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, never thought to look under all the editing junk. -- 08:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

World of Warcraft category proliferation re-think needed
Moved to Wowpedia talk:Category policy/Names.

Zone levels
We need to decide if we want the level shown in the zonebox for each zone to reflect the Blizzard recommended level for the zone, or to reflect the mobs in that zone. I just went through a week or so ago and changed them to the official Blizzard levels, but someone just came through today and changed them to "reflect the mob levels" in the zone. I personally think they should they should be the recommended levels, but regardless we need to make a decision so people don't keep changing it back and forth. -- 20:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps have both, the mob levels and recommended levels. That way no one can decide to change them on ya. 22:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Meh, looks like the person has changed almost all the zones to mob level range. I don't have the energy to change them again or add another parameter, so unless someone else cares I'm just going to leave it be. -- 22:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Laurlybot (Recoded) Npc module
I am in the process of recoding the bot. User:Laurlybot/npc_bot before i start generating pages i thought it might be a good idea to address some of the issues people had with the old bot and get some kind of consensus on how the new one should work.
 * 1) Npc pages use the Zone Map to display where the npc is found in a zone. Note: For NPC's found in more then one zone only one map will be shown.  More then likely the first.
 * 2) The bot is still unable to get race and gender for an npc. Human editors will still have to add that.
 * 3) I am not riping pictures so Humans will have to add them.
 * 4) I'm going to try and code the bot to check the page if there is a picture there it will use it rather then just clobbering the page.
 * 5) Humans will have to check that this image is right. (I will probably tag pages like this for bot help)

The dreaded transcluded pages.
 * The old bot had separate pages for drops/teaches/skins/mines .... yes lots of them.
 * The comment i got was: Get rid of the subpages, as it bloats the article count of the wiki.
 * Using templates in these pages. A lot of people didnt like the templates the old bot used due to the fact that
 * A comment i got was:Use wiki-table markup, as opposed to templates. Templates are just adding a (possibly) confusing step

What i would like to do is the following.
 * Only have one subpage. npcname/data This page would contain.
 * 1) Info on drops, teaches, skins, mines, herbs, pickpocketing...... <and anything else i might be forgetting>
 * There are several reasons for this.
 * 1) There will be a lot of data there. this could confuse anyone trying to edit the page as to what it was.
 * 2) I always intended that the bot be run regularly to update the information on this page. If we have it in the main page even if i code a very careful check to only replace the table data there is still a chance that something could go wrong and the main page data would be over writen.
 * Templates would be easer to change on a wide scale. If we leave them on a second page then there really isnt anything confusing as the bot is the only one reading it.  But if we don't use templates it shouldn't matter if we need to change the format then i can just rerun the bot and all the pages will be updated.

The parser is mostly written so i have all the data. The only thing i need to know is how we want the pages to look and how we want them to work. So i'm going on vacation for a few days. So i figured i would post this here give you guys time to chat about it and check with you when i get back. :) Laurly 08:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I wonder if there's anything we can do to keep the subpages out of the article count.  Put them in another namespace perhaps? -- 12:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I did some checking, and yes, if the data is outside the main namespace it won't add to article count . Therefore, I propose a new namespace be created, possibly called "Data".  This would also provide a namespace for Adys's OpenWDB project. -- 14:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * We honestly don't need transcluded pages. Nor do we need templates. To respond to the points:
 * Yes, there will be a lot of data. However, keeping it all in one place is both easier to edit while simultaneously inviting users to edit it themselves. Requiring them to go the extra step invariably produces bias toward the effect that people aren't going to edit them. And being one of those users which has been not-so-systematically removing the current subpages, I have to say they are quite simply a !@#$% to edit. Consolidation of information in this matter is not a bad thing.
 * Yes, there is that chance. But that's double standard: people have previously used the bot to overwrite decent-looking pages; while that won't be so easy now with some of the plans you have for the bot, it is still possible. Invariably, the bot will produce errors (unless you release the code to open-source, which, even then...). As to catching them, leave that to the wiki-goers. :) If you catch flak for killed-pages, then send em our way. Even with the occasional error, the net positive to editing the main pages will be higher than any risk of error.
 * The latter is exactly the point. Who needs templates when you have a bot that can do it? :)
 * As for Adys's proposal, let's cross that bridge when we come to it. He's had more than a few suggestions, and I'm positive he's wrangling with head-Wikia over it. --Sky (t · c · w) 21:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It really doesn't matter to me how we do it. TBH its a little easer for me to put it all in one page. As for the templates the bot has a template it uses so that matters even less.  Make up a template that we can all agree on and the bot can use it.  I just want to have some kinda agreement on how we do this this time rather then getting issues with it after the bot processes 1500 NPC's. This is an example of one the bot ran Amani_Crocolisk  <span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; margin-left:4px; background-color:#00CCFF; border:1px solid #ffffff; padding:0px 3px 1px 3px;"> Laurly   talk  |  contr  |  bot  21:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Possible violation in Blizzard Downloader article...
Please see Talk:Blizzard_Downloader. -- Fandyllic  (talk · contr) 1:20 PM PST 25 Mar 2008
 * Kirkburn made the argument that even though some of the stuff on this page mines data, it probably wouldn't be harmful to Blizzard. I cleared the violation tag, but feel free to comment on Talk:Blizzard_Downloader. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 1:47 PM PST 25 Mar 2008

"Coming Soon" and "Future Zones" on 2.4 Patch Content
I hope I'm using the village pump correctly...I just wanted to ask someone to review what I had done, considering it's probably the most I've done so far, and I wanted to make sure what I did was right. In a few pages related to the 2.4 patch content (Isle of Quel'Danas, Magister's Terrace, Sunwell Plateau, etc), the categories "Future Zones" and "Coming Soon" were still present. I removed them. Was this done correctly? Thanks! --Lywellyn 22:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yup, you did the right thing. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 2:20 PM PST 26 Mar 2008


 * I'd say so long as the article is converted from future tense to present tense (if it was created in future tense), then its safe to remove the upcoming Categories and stubs. 04:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Where do we report skin problems and who fixes skins?
According to an earlier comment, skin problems shouldn't be put under Wowpedia:Server requests. So, where do they go? If we report skin problems, who fixes them? -- Fandyllic  (talk · contr) 2:34 PM PST 26 Mar 2008


 * To me. I am the skin contact. :) I collate and pass them on to the designer guy. 22:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Learning some more
Two questions: One, is there a way to view all subpages of a user page (say, my own)? And secondly, is there a reason this page is marked 'stub/mob'? Thanks again! :) -- 02:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Special:Prefixindex, type in your username in the box, choose "User" from the dropdown. So, for you: . This page is marked Stub/Mob as an example... Take a look at the text near the message box at . -- k _d3 02:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh wow, I searched everywhere and couldn't find that. Thanks! -- 03:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Image locator sadness
Special:Imagelist no longer has a search bar to find images, which I loved. Made finding images very easy for possible needs. Is it possible to put one up there again? Or is there a different way to find images? 05:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Trying my hand at being helpful. Special:Search has a checkbox for images, maybe that's how you can search for images now?  Hope that's helpful... -- 05:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not as good as the image search bar that was on the page. Try searching "elf" under that, with only image checkmarked, you get no results, where as the old way you'd get a few pages of results. 06:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Item floats incorrect
I'm having trouble with the item tooltips floating on the wrong side of the page, as you can see here. It can be corrected by adding a |disambigpage=, but since I've seen it affects pages with a  symbol it should be a general Wiki problem. Compare this and this.-- 06:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Looking at the code on those two pages, the Fury page had one bit of code that the Field Marshal's Plate Helm did not. When added, as you can now see, it fixed it.  The code?  Simply |float=right . :)  -- 07:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * *sigh* No that's not the problem - the thing is that items with a  in it floats incorrectly (at least for me). It's not only that one item that is wrong, take for example Scout's Tabard and Sergeant's Heavy Cloak, compared to Medallion of the Horde. Using a |float=right doesn't fix the problem, see here.-- 15:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * This may be a new bug introduced by the MediaWiki 1.12 upgrade. I did a search for "Scout's" and all the item tooltips have this float problem. It could be a bug in the tooltip, though. Looking at the tooltip float code, maybe the way &#123;&#123;FULLPAGENAME&#125;&#125; works changed. Usign disambigpage= with a  instead of an   seems to work as a workaround. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]]  Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 9:53 AM PST 27 Mar 2008


 * I found an easier workaround is to just use  instead of an   in the actual item name=. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]]  Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 9:54 AM PST 27 Mar 2008


 * I added this problem to Wowpedia:Server requests. Maybe we can get a bot to implement the simplest workaround until it gets fixed. --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 10:06 AM PST 27 Mar 2008


 * Thank you Fandyllic.-- 20:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Uber n00b Question
How do i make the funky Signiture things? like everyone else -- KingStoph 11:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * See WP:SIG :) 13:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Stubs 2.4?
I remember someone mentioning in an earlier post that they were removing the stubs from patch 2.4. Stubs/Upcoming_Patch There's still a lot of stuff in there. Can we go through them and remove them (and if they're still stubs, make them non-2.4's)? Or is there a process that needs to be done, like, check to see if they actually made the live release? -- 22:02, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well some of the stubbed ones are for the midsummer festival as well. Since it's technically not live for those yet, I'd say keep the stubs how they are. And only remove the stubs on pages that are complete with all necessary info... otherwise it will just get lost in the normal stubs that are rarely looked at (unless on the page itself). 02:27, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * if you can figure out a way to decide which ones to remove and which ones to leave i can have the replace bot go remove the tags. <span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; margin-left:4px; background-color:#00CCFF; border:1px solid #ffffff; padding:0px 3px 1px 3px;"> Laurly   talk  |  contr  |  bot  17:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you can remove the stub/2.4, if the information seems relatively complete and does not apply to holiday events that haven't happened (like Midsummer Fire Festival). Make sure to replace the stub/2.4 with a regular stub (stub/Item, stub/NPC, stub/Quest, etc.) if the info is not complete (i.e. no source, no tooltip, no external links). --[[Image:gengar orange 22x22.png]] Fandyllic  (talk &middot; contr) 2:05 PM PST 31 Mar 2008
 * Or NYI, for items like Midsummer. --Sky (t · c · w) 22:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)