Talk:Undead

Rigamortis, Decay, all the sort of stuff
If a person would be risen into undeath minutes after he/she died, would they just look they were they were, or would the spells mutuate them into zombies, skeletons, or ghouls? Mr.X8 02:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Rigor Mortis wouldn't be much of an issue, the biological process that causes it, and length of the time it lasts is very limited. As for plague it had a magical component that practically instaneously mutated individuals into ghouls, zombies and the like. Others were raised in appearance much like the Forsaken. Decay is slowed, but not stopped.--Baggins 03:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

But if a person were to die (maybe by a gun shot wound or some type of death that doesn't effect the appearance too much), and minutes later a necromancer summoned them to life? Would they automatically look like Forsaken? Mr.X8 23:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Not in some lore. In road to damnation the lady just woke up, tasted he own blood, and then ate her former husband. They mentioned no mutation (they also did not say she was not mutated).-- 00:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

There are multiple spells (or even non-spell effects such as the Plague) that can raise a corpse as undead; some are more violent than others. The unholy energy that transforms a fresh corpse directly into a ghoul is likely so violent that it burns away large chunks of skin, hair, and other tissue, while other spells may simply use a body that has already decayed. More subtle effects may not do any physical damage at all initially, but the body is still dead, which over time will cause the degradation characteristic of the Forsaken. The exceptions to this are mummified corpses, as well as creatures with unusual biochemistry such as Nerubians and gargoyles.

Or at least that's my interpretation :) - Jerodast (talk) 16:59, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Children
Now I know in WoW children can't be killed, but I don't think lore is as strict. Has there ever been records of undead children? If so eeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwww  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  02:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe.-- 02:56, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Also what might happen if a child died at birth,or a kid was killed by raiders and there was a necromancer there? 21:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean birth, I mean children risen into undeath. It would be physically impossible since
 * The Heart has stopped
 * That means no blood is circulating is circulating
 * That means she can't breath to live or breath to give birth.

And it would just be wrong to know that a child popped out of a decaying woman's...  Mr.X8  Talk Contribs  22:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

And if we die,our hearts dont stop beeting?lol 22:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

On a side note, the Forsaken breathe. I didn't think undead were supposed to do that.  XAVIUS  ( This Clockwork Universe ) 16:34, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I chalk it up to simple biological habit. Their bodies don't NEED to breath, but they do it anyway because they've been doing it for twenty years (or however long they were alive).  Also, you need to add a /small tag to the end of your sig. -- Dark T Zeratul 20:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Yea,it kinda extends to the rest of the page 21:24, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Eye colors?
Sylvanas and other Dark Rangers have red eyes, The Forsaken have yellow eyes and Death Knights have blue glowing eyes - no matter what eye color they had "alive". Why doesn't all Undead have the same eye color? And why do they get the eye color they actually have? How come all the Forsaken don't have blue eyes, or Sylvanas have yellow eyes... I wonder =) Merala (Talk) 19:56, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Sylvanas and many Dark Rangers are former high elves, which may explain the difference compared to the average Forsaken, who are mostly human. It's also worth noting Sylvanas spent time as a banshee rather than proceeding directly to a corporeal state of undeath, whereas most Forsaken were killed and raised by the Plague. It's certainly possible that the Lich King uses a different variation of necromancy to raise a death knight champion with all those powers (as compared to your average undead), resulting in yet more variation in appearance. - Jerodast (talk) 17:07, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

New "Nature of undeath" section?
As this talk page and some of the trivia shows, there is a lot of interest in discussing the "rules" and characteristics of undeath in all its many forms. This article is not that large, and seems to be a natural location for such documentation, BUT due to the nature of the lore in this area, such a section would be 90% speculation: some of the "laws of undeath" are written directly in manuals or blue posts, but even these can be inconsistent, and most conclusions would have to be inferred from various appearances and comments within the games and novels. The bottom line is, most of the Blizzard (and partnered) writers and designers are more concerned with the story effects of undeath than the nitty gritty details of the complicated and variable unholy magic involved. And that's fine! Fans are perfectly capable of fleshing out (AHAHAHAHAHA ok) the lore, and like any good speculation section, there's plenty of evidence to be highlighted and pros and cons of different theories to be discussed. I'm just not sure THE official wowpedia article on "Undead" is the right place to do it?

For example, I just wrote what's basically an essay on Humanoid-type Undead that I was going to add in before realizing it would increase the amount of non-list text on the page by over 50%. And this is only scratching the surface! I'm sure the community could generate pages upon pages of meaningful undead philosophy inferred from evidence within the game. Really, I guess I want an intermediate type of page between talk pages and main pages that attempts to create plausible-and-not-demonstrably-inaccurate player explanations for things that have only been hinted at by Blizzard, in the style of the neutral well-sourced articles of the main wiki.

I'll just post it here for now, and then figure out where work of this nature should live at a later time:

Humanoid-type undead

 * Forsaken players and many NPCs are treated as humanoids rather than undead by the game. This is typically viewed as a poorly lore-justified game mechanics decision, especially in light of the development history in which Forsaken players were initially Undead-type before balance issues became insurmountable. However, it is possible to make a compelling argument for their humanoid status within the game lore.
 * Forsaken players and many NPCs are treated as humanoids rather than undead by the game. This is typically viewed as a poorly lore-justified game mechanics decision, especially in light of the development history in which Forsaken players were initially Undead-type before balance issues became insurmountable. However, it is possible to make a compelling argument for their humanoid status within the game lore.


 * Consider that most attacks that are ineffective against undead rely on impairing action via the mind/brain (e.g. Fear and Sap). Many spells they're susceptible to are designed to fight evil energy (e.g. Holy Wrath and Turn Evil), and it isn't hard to imagine that spells specifically crafted for the undead, such as Shackle Undead, work on similar fundamentals. One must then ask what qualities of undeath might make both agents of the Scourge and masterless undead creatures immune to the former but vulnerable to the latter, yet are not present in humanoid-type undead such as the Forsaken. The answer is the separation of the creature's sentient mind, will & soul from each other, and from their natural home in the brain & body, by the curse of undeath.


 * Forcing this separation is integral to a necromancer's raising of new undead, because it leaves room for an unholy bond of domination to entwine itself within the creature's magical & spiritual identity. A core part of the minds of even intelligent Scourge, from skeletal captains to powerful San'layn, are utterly owned by the Lich King. This unholy presence is what causes holy energy to react so harshly against such creatures, as matter does to antimatter, resulting in extra damage, stunning, or complete paralysis. At the same time, the connection anchors the creature's will to a greater power, leaving it unswayed by standard Fear effects or attacks that assume the mind is dependent upon the brain (Sap). Liches, whether or not bound to a master, employ their phylacteries as similar anchors.


 * A masterless undead, while lacking such an anchor, typically has a mind so decayed that the only thing left in control is the unholy curse simmering within it. This explains both its aimlessly violent behavior, and the impact of holy spells against it. By the same logic, Fear and the like cannot affect a being without a mind to make afraid, while Sap's attack on the physical brain has no effect on the magical curse that drives it.


 * Unlike all those undead are the Forsaken, and other free undead that similarly have fully reasserted their own will. Through the efforts of leaders like Sylvanas Windrunner, or simply raw internal strength, these undead people have snapped the hold of the Lich King and other masters, allowing the bond between body, mind, and soul to re-establish itself. With true independence and self-determination reclaimed, the curse of undeath may still animate a person's body and dampen her spirits, but it no longer controls her actions or defines her soul. The most sinister part of her curse has been broken. This leaves the Light unable to use her as a conduit to assault any greater force of evil, and thus it lacks that explosive power seen against full undead. But with that normalizing of the mind-will connection comes the same weaknesses as before death, namely susceptibility to fear and Dominate Mind-style charm spells - their minds are once again their own responsibility.


 * Physically, Forsaken bodies are undead, but past that surface, that curse no longer affects their thoughts and actions. The true nature of their beings is therefore much closer to humanoid than to undead, hence their assigned creature type.

- Jerodast (talk) 00:22, 1 January 2014 (UTC)