Talk:Mag'har orc (playable)

Handling
This is gonna get very annoying to handle. We already had a Mag'har orc racial page, which was merged with the Mag'har faction considering Mag'har was never described as a race, merely a faction of survivors.

Should we:
 * Reinstate the page?
 * Tag every single non-green orc as a mag'har? People like Nelgarm were definitively not green, they were brown, but the term mag'har didn't exist back then.
 * What about black, white and grey orcs of the Iron Horde and MU Blackrock clan and Dragonmaw clan? Dude like Eitrigg were originally never green to begin with excepted in outdated artworks. So where lies the distinction between a "corrupted" Blackrock and an "uncorrupted" Blackrock? The same could be asked for any orc that isn't green.

I personally really don't want to go over the thousands of orc NPC pages and decide their race according to a subjective chromatic wheel.

I suggest keeping things simple: all orcs are orcs, whether they are green, black, white or brown. No separate "Mag'har orc" page even though we keep this "Mag'har orc (playable)" page. Kinda like we currently have a single Eredar characters category for both man'ari and original eredar that didn't became draenei. Xporc (talk) 13:32, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Bump. Xporc (talk) 16:37, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed. All orc history is the same, the only difference is the color. --Ryon21 (talk) 16:46, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It's the same case of the Lightforged, they are Draenei but different, or the Dark Iron dwarves, they are a "sub-race" because his eyes and skin color are different but they are dwarves. I think that the case of the mag'har is special because, the "brown orcs" are the original race, similar to the Zandalari troll for the Troll race.SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 16:51, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I think I agree but I'd rather we wait for some more context before doing anything, we should at least have a confirmation. -- MyMindWontQuiet 18:19, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * SargerasDoomhammer don't tag orcs as mag'har orcs until this discussion has been given time. I'll revert your changes for now. Xporc (talk) 18:50, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed, Orc should be Orc, unless a fel orc. 19:02, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Or unless a dire orc.
 * Yea, let's wait.--Mordecay (talk) 19:19, 8 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I personally disagree with tagging all past brown orcs as mag'har, mainly because it'd be retroactively applying a modern term to people who lived before the concept was ever invented. Is Garrosh Hellscream a mag'har? Yes, he was member of the faction in Outland. Is alternate Grom a mag'har? Debatable, since he refused to be corrupted I guess, plus Blizzard could say he's a mag'har simply because he'll lead the faction. Is Nelgarm a mag'har? Nah, he lived thousands of years before orcs ever got corrupted.
 * I'd like to cite the example of playable trolls who are actually jungle trolls, and playable undead who are actually Forsaken. Sometimes a race's in-game name is simplified and doesn't reflect their true lore.
 * Now, MMWQ raises an interesting question: I partially agree with him that the playable mag'har orcs will be members of a mag'har organization, not a mag'har race. This is why I originally had the playable mag'har page's lore pages as Mag'har and Iron Horde rather than Mag'har orc (previously a redirect until SD changed it this afternoon). This is also why I wanted for the playable Dark Irons lore page to be Dark Iron clan rather than Dark Iron dwarf one (currently a redirect). And now MMWQ says we should have the lore page of the playable Lightforged be Army of the Light rather than Lightforged draenei. Opinions? Xporc (talk) 19:37, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * You've nailed. Also, it will be better to have the lore of these "new" Mag'har into their respective faction page rather than create a new page for a "race". About the Lightforged, in the end they are draenei so, maybe a section in the Draenei page and the rest of the lore into the Army of the Light? --Ryon21 (talk) 19:54, 8 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I think it's better have the lore page about the Mag'har (and the Lightforged) for the lore of this playable allied races, and not merged with the lore page of the "original races" because this races have a different lore. If you see the wowhead's dataminig the Mag'har are confirmed as a race: http://www.wowhead.com/maghar-orc-allied-race not only a merely faction of survivors. SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 20:40, 8 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Hmm, so the mag'har allied race will consists of all the orc clans from Outland be they brown or the different shades of gray. So, sounds like mag'har is as its always been a term for uncorrupted. So rather than change all orcs that aren't green to "mag'har orc" its just easier to keep everyone as orc. 21:13, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah this is odd, "mag'har", while it technically means "Uncorrupted" in orcish, has always been used to refer to a specific faction/group of orcs who escaped fel corruption in Garadar, not "any uncorrupted orcs" such as the ones on AU Draenor (i.e, literally all the orcs). It seems this is about to change and mag'har will now really refer to any and all uncorrupted orc. -- MyMindWontQuiet 21:32, 8 March 2018 (UTC)


 * You're right, it's probably a similar case to the Blood Elves, and the Draenor orcs were renamed after the legion's onslaught over Draenor or something like that
 * I think it's better use the lore page only for the AU Draenor orcs (for now), because the datamining suggest that this orcs are lead by Grommash Hellscream, and the customization options resemble all of the uncorrupted tribes from AU Draenor, not only brown orcs
 * SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 21:41, 8 March 2018 (UTC)


 * The way I see it, the playable mag'har could call "mag'har" themselves in order to differentiate from the Iron Horde orcs who took the fel. Xporc (talk) 22:17, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Okay, what I did is the following:
 * Every single orc belonging to the "The Mag'har" in-game faction was tagged with the "Mag'har orc" race, the "The Mag'har" faction, and added to the "Category:The Mag'har" category.
 * Other Outland and Azeroth brown orcs added before Battle for Azeroth, even when not tagged with the "The Mag'har" faction, were tagged with the "Mag'har orc" race and added to the "Category:The Mag'har" even if they don't belong to the in-game faction. All are assumed to have survived the corruption of the orcs while staying within Garadar and spreaded out later.
 * Any brown orc from before the First War (aka Garad) was NOT tagged with anything Mag'har related. They are orcs, plain and simple.
 * Any alternate Draenor was NOT tagged with the "Mag'har orc" race. Yet. I don't know.
 * Should we create a Mag'har (alternate universe) page for the alternate universe Mag'har faction? Xporc (talk) 12:23, 28 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what to think about #3 since we could say the same about AU orcs, yet they are still referred to as Mag'har (before even Gul'dan's shenanigans) Might want to wait for release to make a decision.
 * But regarding #4, AU Mag'har orcs' race should definitely be Mag'har orcs.
 * For #5 Might want to wait as well for the Mag'har AU page. -- MyMindWontQuiet 14:01, 28 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Yeah well feel free to go through the hundreds of Warlords of Draenor orcs to fix it :D Xporc (talk) 15:44, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break
Resuming this discussion three months later, at least with respect to categories, I would say that any AU brown orcs appearing from BfA onward (so not the bulk of WoD mobs and NPCs) should be given the mag'har orc race and the Category:The Mag'har category (largely because it may be virtually impossible to distinguish whether they're from Outland or Draenor). We probably should also make a Mag'har (alternate universe) page focusing primarily on the playable race with whatever history is specific to the post-WoD mag'har. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 07:35, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Aye, thanks, I was writing something about at the same time. So, for those not knowing, a category for mag'har orcs was created by Mordecay. Currently it only contains the AU mag'har that were added to Orgrimmar recently. So, what about the others? The Iron Horde orcs? The Outland mag'har? Personally I believe the Category:The Mag'har category should stopped to be used at all, since it is specifically about the Outland mag'har and their faction. I also agree on the Mag'har (alternate universe) page, which currently only exists as a redirect. Xporc (talk) 07:45, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * About the Mag'har page, SargerasDoomhammer started doing this: User:SargerasDoomhammer/Sandbox. So maybe we can use it for the (alternate universe) page? --Ryon21 (talk) 08:01, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You have a point about the faction, Xporc... So how about this, then. Category:The Mag'har is used explicitly for members of the Outland faction, and the rest can get Category:Mag'har orc characters.
 * Iron Horde orcs should not be tagged as mag'har at all unless they later reappear in BfA, since they predate its existence as an established group. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 08:07, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I mean, since the category is still small, wouldn't it be better if it was renamed Category:Mag'har (alternate universe)? For Outland mag'har we'd still use Category:The Mag'har as you said and for the Iron Horde mag'har with Category:Iron Horde is enough no?--Ryon21 (talk) 08:13, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The trouble is that it will be virtually impossible to tell whether a given NPC is from Outland or Draenor if they don't explicitly say so. It's also contrary to how we handle every other racial category (for instance, there is no "Draenei (alternate universe)" category). -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 08:19, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * True. We go with Mag'har orc characters then. --Ryon21 (talk) 08:32, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Previously there was no need to create a category for the alternate universe draenei as a political faction. Turns out, the need is here for the alternate universe orcs ... Wish Blizzard used a different name for them, really. I wouldn't mind having all orcs tagged as Category:Orc characters, and then have them tagged as either Category:The Mag'har (for pre-TBC brown orcs), Category:Iron Horde (for WoD-only brown orcs) and Category:Mag'har (alternate universe) (for everyone post-BFA). If it turns out later that an orc was wrongly assumed to be from AU-Draenor but is actually from MU-Outland, then, we can just fix it Xporc (talk) 08:35, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I feel very strongly against the need for an (alternate universe) category, for the reasons I have previously elucidated. Mainly because we're not categorizing them as a political faction, we're categorizing them as a race. Your suggestion would also leave gaps with regards to certain orcs who were not part of the Iron Horde and who did not survive to the forming of the mag'har (i.e. Ga'nar).
 * It's also much simpler to deduce who goes in what category. Brown orc from WoD (or historical figures pre-First War)? . Brown orc appearing literally anywhere else?  -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 08:56, 19 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I initially had in mind a distinction between the corrupted (green skinned, the Category:Orc characters) and uncorrupted orcs (all brown orcs, the Category:Mag'har orc characters) as there's a tendency to differentiate races even when they are just enhanced by magic by Blizzard and wowpedia (Lightforged draenei and draenei come to mind, where the Lightforged are our green skinned orcs (buffed with the Light vs the fel) and draenei would be the mag'har, not changed by any magic). Category:The Mag'har would be for the Outland, but what would the faction category for the BfA be? Category:Mag'har Clans or Category:Mag'har (alternate universe)? The discussion is not going this way either way so, as such, scratch my ramblings above (unless someone else wants that too, that is :-P).
 * Now I lean towards having the Category:Mag'har orc characters for the BfA ones. And don't use Category:The Mag'har category for them as this is about the Outland faction. It would essentially encompass the race and their faction. Example of it is the current state of Mag'har Darkcaster. And don't do any changes to the Outland Mag'har or Iron Horde Mag'har orcs, I guess. As for the page, based on the item provided, it can be Mag'har Clans. Mag'har (alternate universe) can be a redirect to it.--Mordecay (talk) 12:23, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't mind using Category:Mag'har orc characters only for the BFA brown orcs, and forward, but I feel that some users will get confused at the logic and try to tag outland mag'har with the category or something. Xporc (talk) 12:35, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Not that it is entirely wrong either tho. They are that, after all. I mean, it is Blizzard who differentiates between the corrupted-uncorrupted or magic-enhanced "different races" when they are in the basic the same race. --Mordecay (talk) 16:50, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I prefer your original idea Mordy, I think. -- MyMindWontQuiet 19:19, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Anyone opposed to a mix between mine and DarkTZeratul's solutions?
 * Any modern/green orc:
 * Brown orc from WoD (or historical figures pre-First War)? as well. Also clan + ,  or  depending on the actual affiliation.
 * Brown orc appearing literally anywhere else? . Also  if the orc was added before Legion. Xporc (talk) 14:12, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer to keep specifically for NPCs who are actually tied to the Mag'har rep faction, but otherwise that all sounds good to me. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 03:00, 23 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I agree with DarkTZeratul's solutions, and about the Mag'har page, I agree with Mordecay about the name "Mag'har Clans" because it's a more official name for the faction (Tabard of the Mag'har Clans)  03:28, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Dragonmaw: Listed or Not
Instead of making an editing war, why are we removing the Dragonmaw entirely? Zaela as well as several Dragonmaw NPCs in the Upper Blackrock Spire dungeon do not have the golden eye glow. If the stringency for their listing is "do NPCs use this" then they would be listed under the Grey skin option, with their grey skin yellow eyes option listed alongside the Shattered Hands' white skin option being unobtainable. I'm going ahead and adding a screenshot as well to this to show what I'm talking about. --Berenal (talk) 19:10, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, that must be an oversight because lorewise they should have glowing eyes. I'd guess they only do not have them in the instance. Blizzconsistency :D --Ryon21 (talk) 19:18, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah the thing about that is that Zaela was deliberately given the grey skin when they did the model update to prevent her from having the glowing eyes. Most of her Warlords appearances have her without the glowing eyes. Regardless, blizzard inconsistency or not (as several shadowmoon orcs also have the yellow eyes), there's dragonmaws without it. I'm gonna add them back up on the grey skin part. --Berenal (talk) 19:24, 4 October 2018 (UTC)