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Blood elf Shamans
The infobox mentions Shamans as a plausible blood elf class.
I did some research and think it's a bit implausible to say the Sunseeker Geomancer is a viable source, considering the NPC casts only Arcane Explosion and their respective WoWpedia page mentions they're a mage, too. The second cite is a blood elf called Elementalist Starion, but he's Twilight-aligned and thus it's more plausible to call him a Dark Shaman rather than a normal shaman. The Twilight Hammer have been shown to utilize Dark Shamanism before, and considering they're aligned to the Old Gods it makes logical sense for him to be one, too.
I'm not experienced enough with editing references and nor do I want to screw something up, so I made this talk page for actual discussion before anyone changes anything about the classes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Erkorr (talk · contr).
- While the Sunseeker Geomancer's attack set is very limited, geomancy is loosely defined as a crude form of shamanism in The Old Wizard's Almanac. One could argue that they aren't actually shaman. It seems similar to the relation between harvest-witches and druids. As for Starion, dark shaman are still shaman. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 21:39, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Break up the Alignment section
this section seems... bad. three and a half decent-sized paragraphs with only two references, almost entirely dedicated to an editor's opinions on how a fantasy race compares to real-world politics. it reads like someone just finished a political science degree and was itching to put it to use. like... of course politics influence fiction, but it feels extremely disrespectful to bring up nazi freaking germany (which this section did up until a few hours ago) in regards to a videogame. blood elves aren't real and their actions did not hurt real people.
plus this entire section is written as if the game never progressed past TBC (maybe it was written in TBC and no one has touched it since?), which makes it fairly useless in addition to, well, everything else.
my general view on the wiki is that we're here to show facts, not to tell readers what to think of them. so i think we should integrate the canon things (e.g. mind control, viewing other races of the horde as lesser, etc.) somewhere else in the article and leave political interpretation at the door. —Eithris (talk) 21:48, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- I completely agree, though I wouldn't know how to properly take the canon parts out of all that mess and make them into more neutral sentences. Political opinions are usually never a good idea in wikis, but some people never learn :sighs: --Ryon21 (talk) 22:32, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
- hmm. glancing over the section, my opinions are:
"the blood elves aren't evil" is keep-worthy. it actually has a citation!done.
- the paragraph about how the alliance failed the high & blood elves in the second & third wars seems like it'd be usable with proper sources. i'm no Blood Elf Expert, but none of this part's statements seem too... (ahem) outlandish.
- "successfully drained the energy from a naaru" can stay. but, without in-universe examples of how blood elves are seen, everything else from the "jingoist" paragraph amounts to useless conjecture.
- "cultural identity revolves around magic" makes sense enough. Arcane Guardians' propaganda and the use of mind control are good in-game examples of things the blood elves did and definitely need to be kept. the rest of this paragraph is completely unusable.
- the "dark destiny" bit... it sounds like a nice historical note, but it's also sort of vague. i could go either way on this one.
- i'm not totally sure yet where this stuff would best belong tho. i guess mostly the TBC section. and then of course, some of this stuff may already be present elsewhere in the article... the whole thing could probs use some streamlining in general, but i think that's a much bigger project than i'm ready to take on, eheh. —Eithris (talk) 02:05, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
- hmm. glancing over the section, my opinions are:
okay, i kept putting it off but i finally got around to removing the rest of that section just now, while moving some parts elsewhere. turns out many of the things i mentioned above were already mentioned elsewhere on the page, so i think i've managed not to take out anything important. Eithris (talk) 01:10, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
About "Arabic" Blood Elves
The "inspirations" section has to be reworked. Implicitly comparing Dath'Remar to Muhammad because he had a dream of a sword and comparing the pilgrimage to the sunwell to the haji is a bit too much. Dath'Remar is not a prophet or religious figure and the Sunwell is not a religious symbol, it is important because it quenches the Blood Elve's thirst for magic. With the same reasoning you could compare Kael'Thas to Louis XIV because he calls himself the "Sun King". Furthermore, there are various aspects of Blood Elf culture that just don't fit the Middle East:
- Blood Elves like to put sculptures of themselves everywhere, Muslim art is generally aniconic.
- Topiary, and spiral topiary in particular, isn't characteristic for Muslim garden architecture. If anything, it echoes 17th century Baroque gardening.
- The look of guards, Blood Knights and Far Striders in no way resembles motifs from Middle Eastern cultures.
- The Shape of Blood Elf towers might as well be Lord of the Rings-inspired. Look at the elven towers from the Tower Hills or the white tower of Ecthelion.
The most visually "Middle Eastern" aspect is the interior design you find in Silvermoon, e.G. the sleeping area in Silvermoon city inn. But then again, the cutlery, chairs and stair railings are more "Art Nouveau" than traditionally Middle Eastern.
EvilMorrigan (talk) 16:34, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sure the Louis XIV point makes sense, that can be added.
- Art Nouveau is actually derived from Ottoman Imperial aesthetics, first developed among Hungarians, so you're wrong there, FURTHERMORE, nobody has ever been able to find the citation behind the devs stating it was Art Nouveau, the edit that added this bit to both the Wowwiki and Wowpedia cited an interview nobody has been able to find. The Sunwell is a religious location since Wrath, where it is described as a sacred location during , and we see both Horde Blood Elves and Dalaran/Alliance High Elves being called "Pilgrims" during the questline by their NPC name during , so they are very much doing pilgrimage to the Sunwell. The style of the towers do not resemble the White Tower of Echthelion, due to it resembling a gothic spire with its square edges while the blood elf spires are firmly rounded segments and rely on curvatures, which in particular resembles Ottoman period minarets.
- Nobody listed the guards, blood knights, or farstriders as MENA derived, so this is non sequitur. Nobody listed the gardens as MENA imperial styled gardens, so this is also non sequitur. User:Baalqliphoth(talk) 19:17, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding Art nouveau: I couldn't find a source claiming it was derived from Ottoman Imperial aesthetics. I could find sources claiming art nouveau has sources in Far Eastern art, such as Japanese and Chinese.
- Regarding the sunwell being religious: Point taken. Comparing it to the Haji still seems awkward to me. Lots of adherents of different religions do pilgrimages (e.G. Catholics, Hindus). The pilgrimage to the Sunwell is (to my knowledge) never said to be mandatory. The Haji, on the other hand, is one of the five pillars of Islam.
- Regarding the towers: Even if it's not the Tower of Echthelion, similar towers exist in movies and concept art regarding Tolkien's universe.
- Regarding "non sequiturs": My examples served to contradict the notion that Blood Elves were primarily Middle Eastern inspired. Garden architecture, guards and Blood Knights stand in stark contrast to a supposedly "Middle eastern" vibe. The section as it appears in the article gives a false impression.
- You haven't adressed Dath'Remar. EvilMorrigan (talk) 20:50, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- The thematic core of Orientalism during that period was centered on Ottoman Imperial and East Asian Imperial aesthetics; the earliest examples of Art Nouveau (eg Gaudi in Barcelona) were stated to be partially inspired by Orientalist revival motifs by the artists themselves, some of whom listing the Ottoman Empire. But certainly, if you want to expand the point that Art Nouveau is based on 19th and 20th century Orientalism, responding to both the Ottoman Empire, Qing Dynasty of China, and others, that can be done.
- It's a pilgrimage to a holy well surrounded by minarets.
- The art used for Tolkien's earlier editions that were approved by him retain Gothic motifs, no Orientalist motifs; same stands for all the towers in the movies. Non sequitur and baseless.
- No false impression is given; the notes state blood elf aesthetics is partially inspired by MENA themes via Orientalist lens and other high fantasy motifs, and I added two French points you brought up, and another French point that occurred to me earlier today. There are MENA motifs and other motifs, and the notes recognize both.
- There is nothing to address, the sentence reads the story is similar to some versions because it is, and is followed up by it being an Andruil parallel as well. Nowhere is anyone making the claim Dath'Remar is Mohammed, just as on the Anduin Lothar being Charlemagne/King Arthur and other pages that have historical/mythological parallels nobody is saying anything beyond it being a similar story with similar tropes that reinforce the pre-existing parallel cultural motifs. Do you have a problem with those as well or is your concern limited to this example? User:Baalqliphoth(talk) 21:23, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Ofc the things listed stand there now, you just edited them.
- Regarding Art Nouveau: Maybe it would be more constructive to specify what part of Bloodelf Architecture seems "Art Nouveau". Is it just the tendril motif of the stair railings in Blood elf inns? Is it the flower motiv on the floor of some buildings? And if yes, why would that imply an Ottoman connection in particular?
- Regarding Tolkien's motifs: I didn't want to say that Tolkien's concept art had Oriental motifs.
- Regarding the towers: First of all, Ottoman minaretts are pretty heterogenous. But the towers seen in the Blood Elf areas are clearly not minarets. Are there Muezzins calling for prayer? Is every tower close to a house of worship? Similarly shaped towers appear in concept art about the Tower hills from LOTR, which you didn't adress. Not every slim, elegant tower is a minarett.
- Regarding the Sunwell: It's not a religious virtue to have travelled to the Sunwell once in your life. If the pilgrimage is supposed to be like the Haji, you'd have to source that.
- Regarding Dath'Remar: There's a difference between "seems similar" and "is inspired by". And yes, I'd actually have a problem if you compared Lothar to Charlemagne. This section is about inspiration and not analogies. Obtaining an artifact because of a dream or a vision is a common trope found in many mythologies and fantasy stories. EvilMorrigan (talk) 22:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, because I integrated your feedback.
- No, it wouldn't, because we don't do that with any other page or race. Quel'thalas is Art Nouveau (again, an uncited point due to community memory of a lost interview) and Art Nouveau is based on Orientalist architecture. That is material history.
- Yes, which is why I said they are similar to minarets during the Ottoman period, because they are; also similar to some Mughal period minarets, different from other architectural styles during other periods of history. Cultural function being different does not dismiss the architectural replication; the Halls of Atonement are based on a Catholic Gothic Cathedral even though it's in-game use isn't for worship or prayer but for anima-extraction.
- It's similar, there is a pilgrimage where faction-difference is ignored for the sake of its sacred importance, and it is a holy well to a people with various MENA derivative motifs.
- Okay, well similarity exists and that's what the note states, and Lothar does have similarities to various European kings so that is also what it states, and will continue to state.
- The Tolkien and French motifs are being held equal to the MENA motifs, and I notice you're not arguing against the boat note because that one is undeniable.
- I do not believe you are arguing in good faith given this is your first post and seems extremely targeted, and as multiple of your original arguments were either already incorporated (mentioning East Asia was there before you did this), listed things that wasn't mentioned (the gardens and military ranks, which are now mentioned and attributed to French and Tolkien motifs), and other points have now been incorporated (such as the Sun King reference). Do you have any other constructive things to add? User:Baalqliphoth(talk) 22:46, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
Hello! I'm new here so firstly I want to apologize if I did something wrong. I decided to make new subject because I won't talk much about the previous influences. I just want to discuss with someone a few more things that I think are worth noticing. I also want to apologize for my English, that's not my native language and I may make stupid mistakes. I also want to make it easy to ready, which may be hard, but hey, I'm trying :)
- Alright, so first of all I want to talk about Blood Elf architecture. That's right, it may have some similarities with Middle Eastern, but don't forget about Neo-Byzantine architecture too. Some blood elf buildings are really similar to this style, I think that the main example may be a (wooden, but still) building that resembles that style on the Isle of Thunder (that place where is NPC called Uda the Beast).
- Another thing that I want to discuss is Blood Elf Flag. For me, it resembles the Roman Empire flag with the eagle. Of course, colors are obvious, the eagle was just replaced by a phoenix. Worth noticing is also the fact, that later Eastern Roman empire used a double-headed eagle, and we can see a double-headed phoenix on The Sunfury banner.
- We can also see that some names are inspired by Tolkien and mythology. Obviously, the main examples here are Sylvanas (Silvanus was a Roman tutelary deity of woods and uncultivated lands) and Halduron (probably inspired on Haldir from LOTR).
If someone wants to add something feel free to do it. I just want to discuss those things and not simply add them randomly without discussing them with anyone. I just want to add, that I'm still learning how to use wowpedia, so it will probably take me some effort to reply. Have a nice day anyone who is reading this :)
Shylvian (talk) 11:32, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
- EDIT! Okay, I don't know if I'm replying the right way. But hello again! :D Thank you for your reply. I've found some new things to discuss before probably adding some of them. I'll start from the some probably obvious inspirations and then go to some speculations. So let's start this:
- Firstly I want to add that Magisters may refer to a real-world Magister degree, which is a medieval European academic degree used even today. In Latin the word magister means teacher.
- Next thing that I want to talk about is their music, or music instruments exactly. I've noticed two of them and I'll talk about them separately:
- The first one is the ancient Greek lyre. We can see them in some places in Silvermoon, or we can see an elf - Emilia Baumoon play on it in Dalaran. We know that it's an ancient Greek lyre because of its shape, which is different from modern lyres, or other ancient lyres.
- The second musical instrument that we can see in elven culture is a pan flute, which is named after Pan, the Greek god of nature and shepherds often depicted playing on it. We can see Lirath Winrunner playing on it in Three Sisters comics.
- EDIT! Okay, I don't know if I'm replying the right way. But hello again! :D Thank you for your reply. I've found some new things to discuss before probably adding some of them. I'll start from the some probably obvious inspirations and then go to some speculations. So let's start this:
- Now before I go to the speculations, I'll just add more influences that affected blood elven names. The name "Umbric" is derived from the Latin word umbra, which means "shadow".
- And now it's time for speculations about Blood Elven names. That topic is really interesting and huge. I'll just notice that there are just speculations, maybe I'm overinterpreting things, but they are still worth noticing. This time I'll talk about names in Windrunner family. As we know now name Sylvanas was probably inspired by Silvanus, who was a Roman tutelary deity. But we also have other members of the family and it would be a shame if we ignore them.
- I'll start with Alleria, because her name may have many influences. Her nickname is "Lady Sun" (given by Vereesa) and it is a reference to her hair color. It may be a big hint because there three possible names which could be the inspiration.
- The first one name is the little-known Ancient Roman name Aelia (Feminine form of Aelius) meaning "sun".
- The other one is also Ancient Roman name - Aurelia, meaning "golden".
- But to make this more confusing, there is also a male name Allerius (yes, there is a catholic saint with that name), but I couldn't find what that name means. We know that Roman female names are often derived from male names (Aurelius > Aurelia, Julius > Julia, Claudius > Claudia etc.) A similar procedure could be made here, Allerius > Alleria. I would really love it if someone could find the meaning of that name since I searched a lot of sites and couldn't find it.
- Now I'll go to Lirath Windrunner. His name may be a reference to a lyre, you may think "WTF" now, but I'll explain this. We don't know a lot about him, but we may see that he probably had some music interests since he was playing that pan flute in that comics (that may be overinterpretation, but hey, I want to discuss that, that's why I separated it from Umbric which is obvious). Of course, Lyre is different than Lirath, but see it my way, how possibly that name could be created:
- 1. The word lyre was taken, they replaced -e with -ath end to it to make it sound more like a name (-ath end can be seen also in the name Rommath).
- 2. To make it sound slightly different they changed Lyrath into Lirath (Worth noticing is that in Modern Greek lyre is pronounced as "líra", and in the Polish language, it's just "lira" [information from Wikipedia]).
- 3. Also worth noticing is the fact, that there is an NPC called Lyrath Moonfeather in Val'sharah. Of course, Lirath Windrunner was first, but in my opinion, they gave that NPC name Lyrath to make it two different names, since they won't name a random NPC with the same name as (probably) an important lore character (He is a Windrunner, so automatically he has the potential to be important).
- Now we will talk about Lireesa Windrunner, the mother of Winrunner sisters and Lirath, because it may be connected with Lirath. We can see that those names start the same, with Lir-, so probably one was the inspiration for another. But who was first in the writer's head we won't know. I would say Lirath, because Lireesa may be simply a mix of her kids names: Lirath's Lir- and Vereesa -eesa (not -reesa because r is from Lirath).
- We can see that some male elven names end on -ath (Lirath, Rommath), while females end with -eesa (Lireesa, Vereesa). It may mean something, but for now, we don't know what does it mean. Feel free to discuss those things, remember that the speculation is only speculation. I just hope that I replied in a proper way. Have a nice day.
- Shylvian (talk) 12:42, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
- Aww, little edit because I made a mistake. Indeed, -eesa is an exclusive (if that's a correct word) name end for Blood Elf females, but -ath is not exclusive for Blood Elf males.
- Shylvian (talk) 06:14, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Well given Magister is referring exclusively to the magical-group of the Blood Elves, I think it's more likely it's based on the derivative of Mage that is used IRL by various neopagans and occult societies, rather than it's academic use.
- I think the "lyre" I remember in-game is more just an artistic shape of a more modern harp to be honest? Or where are these small Greek lyres with the shape from antiquity?
- Allerius is actually an ancient variation of Aurelius so you're probably right on the Aurelius note, rather than Aelia.
- By process of elimination (Lady Sun, Lady Moon, Little Moon), that leaves Lirath as Little Sun; but he's yet to play any importance in the story so it's one of the things I've been saving in my head for when he's more important to flesh out the page, especially given that the lyre was given to Apollo by Hermes, and the Pan flute given to Apollo by Pan, and Apollo was one of the youngest Olympian gods and is the second sun-deity in the Greek pantheon (first being Helios).
- User:Baalqliphoth(talk) 15:08, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the answer! I may be completely wrong now, but isn't a harp that big triangle thingy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harp) which indeed is in-game, but in Suramar? One of them can be seen in the Estate of the First Arcanist in her bedroom? (That's funny, her bedroom is on the open-air without any walls xd). The lyre can be seen in Silvermoon behind Lor'themar (slightly to the Rommath side) and a Blood Elf (since she has green eyes) Emilia Baumoon (https://www.wowhead.com/npc=112947/emilia-baumoon) plays on it in Dalaran (If you open wowhead you can see that it's near her, but she also plays on it). I don't know if it's a language barrier, but in my opinion, it's a lyre, not a harp. There was a french guy from XVIII/XIX century named Robert von Spalart, who in his book "Tableau historique des costumes, des moeurs et des usages des principaux peuples de l'antiquité et du Moyen-Age, Vol 1" described that instrument as a lyre. That book is avabile online, but sadly pages are not numbered :(. However, I scrolled it down for you https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=6mIVAAAAQAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PP128 should move you to the page where is written "Nos 1, 2 Lyres grecques...". If you scroll 4 pages down (to that place https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=6mIVAAAAQAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PP132 ) you can see that's it's about the musical instrument of that shape, like the one seen in Silvermoon behind Lor'themar and the one on which Emilia Baumoon is playing (they just have wings added on the sides). Have a nice day and thanks for your time <3 Shylvian (talk) 16:29, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
The mysterious Art nouveau interview and other cultural references part 3
After a bit of research I noticed that the first edit mentioning Art Nouveau (date: 03:51, 6 January 2009) didn't even claim to reference any Burning Crusade interview. There's no need to look for an interview, if it's just a spontaneous observation by an art nerd.
A different point of contention are the "Byzantine phoenixes". The solar phoenix motif clearly isn't supposed to reference the Byzantines, but serves as a contrast to the lunar / nocturnal Night Elves. That Elven towers are supposed to resemble Ottoman minarets in particular is still unsourced. With the same attitude you could frame Blood Elves as "Hyperboreans" from Greek myth, since they live in the north, are blonde as Apollo and worship the sun. None of this is sourced and just reflects the preferences of the wiki writer, not the thoughts of the actual game designer.
The article could need some more direct quotes from pages 68-70 from "Computer Gaming World #257" (which is already cited as a source) rather than references to the Byzantines or Ottomans, which are, in my opinion, unfounded or give a false impression. I think the quote about "Legolas going down a dark path" could be mentioned.
EvilMorrigan (talk) 16:00, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- I mean I agree it's probably that there was no interview, and the original edit wasn't on wowpedia but on wowwiki even BEFORE that date (concurrent to TBC early days), but that user is MIA for years now and for some reason when the topic comes up, folks insist it was actually confirmed in an interview, whether in video or at a Blizzcon, but nobody has the source. Phoenixes are an IRL myth, they're invoked to do the contrast as you said, they are solar because of IRL myth, not an invention of WoW. IMO the use of mostly blonde hair for the Blood Elves back in the day was more a reference to Tolkien's descriptions of the "elite" of his elves (and of course Tolkien was borrowing from various European myth sources as we all know), which is an inspiration that is already mentioned on the page that I believe you yourself a few months ago already suggested to be added and was added.
- Inspirations are rarely ever explicitly stated by any developers, so limiting ourselves to only explicitly mentioned inspirations would be bizarre. User:Baalqliphoth(talk) 18:51, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- Also not gonna rehash an argument we already had months ago that is literally right there and you can easily scroll up to read through it.User:Baalqliphoth(talk) 18:59, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- i still think when it comes to things that aren't officially stated, we should at least stick to inspirations that most people will read and go "oh, yeah, that makes sense." personally i just don't see the minaret thing (& i know i'm not the only one), and then the list of boats feels like we just went looking for similar-looking boats and threw them all in. when i brought up the chinese junk ships before, i didn't mean "add it to the pile," i meant that we don't actually know if any of these boats are inspirations because there are so, so many different types of boats throughout history.
- and... i apologize if this is harsh, but i also feel that most of the arguments from a few months ago were never really settled. i'm not sure anyone who disagreed was convinced so much as bowled over. imo this stuff has stayed on the page because no one wants to sit here and go in circles forever--and i think that's a bad way to choose what gets to be on a page. Eithris (talk) 20:09, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- This is like insisting Forsaken/Gilnean/Human/Kul Tiran ships aren't necessarily galleons, which it's obvious and self-evident they are because we are all familiar with galleon boats because most all of us are familiar with "pirate boats" in popular media because of the early 2000s/2010s use of pirates everywhere.
- I remind you that what is "obvious" depends on your personal cultural background or experience.
- I'll be honest, I think it's strange that everyone feels this strongly about Muslim/Islamic/Asian-based inspirations for the blood elves, I can definitely use academic sources, which I have handy because I have personal notes on every single one of these points, including published academic journals defending every single one of these associations, which I will gladly add to each page. I, in fact, offered to do so when I started and folks said no.
- And I mean if they're unconvinced and I'm unconvinced then we're both stuck where we are. Last time we added a lot of their suggestions, and they acquiesced to recognizing obvious references too.User:Baalqliphoth(talk) 22:21, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- Like they're arguing against including the IRL basis of phoenixes, what, it's just a mythological bird from egypt that the greeks spread. And last time users were making fake profiles targeting my edits because of drama of the Forums.User:Baalqliphoth(talk) 22:32, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- I think it's problematic if we're going to implicitly have a standard that what is Western/European is obvious and apparent and what is Non-Western/Non-European should be "reduced", e.g. is mentioning Arthurian legends on the Human page okay but mentioning the specific Amerindigenious tribes that use tipis/totems/war bonnet for Tauren not okay?User:Baalqliphoth(talk) 22:35, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- For emphasis and posterity: belf ship, chinese junk ship, baghla/dhow User:Baalqliphoth(talk) 22:49, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- I have nothing against the Chinese junk ship / dhow comparison. However, there's nothing wrong with specifying cultural inspirations, especially from cultures you are not familiar with. I'd like to give an example. In the "Avatar: The Last Airbender" cartoon there was a so called "Blue Spirit mask" worn by a main character. I thought it was "obviously" a Japanese Oni Mask, and I've seen the Oni Mask description multiple times on multiple websites. Turns out it's actually, by word of the author, inspired by a mask representing a Dragon King in Chinese Nuo opera. I think "the word of the author" is more relevant than citing third party academic sources. My problem isn't that the article mentions phoenixes. My problem is that it's used as proof that Blood Elves are somehow Eastern Roman inspired, which they are not. Even less so than MENA inspiration.EvilMorrigan (talk) 23:35, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- About the minarets, I'm still as unconvinced as months before, and my points are the same. If I had the task to design an Elven tower, it would eventually become a thin, elegant "minarett" shape without thinking about it. Maybe it's just a design evolution from the "Arcane observatory" building unit from Warcraft 3 and rescaled to fit WoW. But I'm repeating myself. The only things I really would like to add are that we don't need to find a source about Art Nouveau where none was given (originally, at least), and that we can quote more from the magazine. That's it.EvilMorrigan (talk) 23:45, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- just because some randos from the forum came over here does not mean that no one else gets to disagree. repeatedly implying that no one would care if not for them is pointless and frustrating... as is implying that everyone disagreeing is actually doing so out of racism. honestly i'd be perfectly fine removing that forsaken ships are galleons, or that strom'kar is like excalibur. i feel that most of these sections are far overreaching.
- anyway. please stop acting like this is the story forum. this is not a place for digging your heels in to win, it's a place for saying "what do you guys think?" and going from there. in this case, multiple editors--here and on discord--said that they think some of this stuff seems far-fetched. it only got dropped out of not having the energy to argue forever. Eithris (talk) 23:56, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
- As far as the boats go, there are many similarities, but there are also many ways in which the BE boats look nothing like the two IRL boats. I feel that sometimes a tower might just be a tower. Are there similarities between BE towers and minarets? Probably. Just as there are between all towers. Obviously I'm no expert on architecture, but it's not immediately obvious to me that the BE spires specifically are designed directly with the intention of mirroring the shape of the minaret. It could be, but I don't think it's a clear-cut case where we can say that for sure. PeterWind (talk) 00:39, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Simply looking up "Minaret" on wikipedia, there's pictures of all manner of towers. PeterWind (talk) 08:11, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Interesting picture. Blood Elf Towers seem closer to type 4 (Indian), because of the platform. They aren't as needle-shaped as the Turkish variant. On the character creation screen for Blood Elves, we can clearly see that those towers serve as watch towers. Funnily enough, even in India, it's sometimes hard to distinguish a simple watchtower from a minaret, because some towers were rebranded as such (and vice versa).EvilMorrigan (talk) 08:57, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Hello again, I'm back and I do love this topic! Okay, so since I added "Other influences" I'll try to explain some things. When I talked about their flag, I didn't said "Byzantine phoenixes", I just wanted to say, that their position on the flag RESEMBLE Roman, later Byzantine eagles. We see that first Rome had that SPQR flag with an golden eagle on red flag, and Silvermoon has golden phoenix on red flag! Later we see double-headed eagle on Byzantine (CONTINUATION OF ROME) an double-headed phoenix on Sunfury flag. I never said "Oh yes, definetly 100000% copy paste Rome-Byzantine to the game, wohoo".
But let's continue. Yes, I may be wrong (or not, since Byzantine is also based on that style) with architecture but I didn't had access to "Computer Gaming World #257" but thanks for poiting that, much love for you <3. (For those curious about that article http://www.cgwmuseum.org/galleries/issues/cgw_257.pdf ). In the interview on page 66 we can read that "The Night Elves have somewhat Nordic and Japanease architecture" says Metzen "We wanted something more classical and magical this time" . So yes, Metzen admits that they were inspired by classical architecure and I'm so sorry for not knowing about that interview :( And this is so right, we can see that BE buildings are based on classical basilic buldings (Karlskirche in Vienna is a really good example, it even has towers like BE buildings (Yes, I know that it's baroque building, but based on classical architecture). But also Byzantine buildings as I said before were based on their Roman-Greek, so classical past). I was mistaken, since not all classical buildings have domes. I would really love if someone could simply change " The other architectural motifs resemble those developed during the Byzantine period of Rome." into something saying what Metzen said in that interview for "Computer Gaming World #257", since he knew better, and add source of that information, so that "Computer Gaming World #257" page 66.
About minaretes I don't know. We see similar towers in that Karlskirche in Vienna, simply being called towers but if someone sees minaretes in them and that makes him happy then so be it. We are here to have fun, not yell at each other.
Shylvian (talk) 14:46, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Edit because I found a proof that Byzantine architecture was based on it's classical past https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_architecture (Read first 3 sentences under "History, Origins" section.)
Shylvian (talk) 15:22, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
- Hello Shylvian! Thanks for your thoughts. I can definitely see where you're coming from. However, when Metzen meant "classical", he could have meant "what people typically think of when they think about fantasy elves", like LOTR Elves. Night Elves are pretty unique with their purple skin and blend of Japanese, Korean, Nordic and even Classical Greek architecture. Blood Elves are supposed to be "like Legolas". But yeah, the domes combined with large, beautiful statues definitely seem "baroque" (in the sense that they are opulent and luxuriously decorated). The Karlskirche is a nice reference. The baroque tower pavillons fit with the French gardening style we have already mentioned.EvilMorrigan (talk) 16:24, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Oh yeah, maybe I misunderstood. However I still think that BE architecture, because it is based (and we can all agree here I think) on the former Kaldorei Empire (Azshara times) has that domes and buildings based on same thing as NE domes and buildings, so Greek/Byzantine for me. Blood Elves (High Elves) simply continuated Night Elves (imperial?) style of architecture.
Shylvian (talk) 16:40, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Okay, now I think that I found better inspiration for BE architecture. The biggest inspiration for BE was indeed Elves from LOTR (Remember that in the early 00's or even longer was a big hype for LOTR movies). The Blood Elf architecture is based on Elven architecture from the game The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-Earth from 2004. Just don't tell me that you don't see similarity between that http://bfme2.heavengames.com/cpix/gameinfo/elvenhub.jpg and that BE house on the side https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/f5/a4/91f5a4918c04c03a4a12e0a310c37710.jpg . Also other buildings like Farstrider Retreat https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/1025022-farstrider-retreat.jpg looks similar to a building from that game https://bfme.fandom.com/wiki/Rivendell_Battle_Towers (Idk how to call it, look at shape of the roof on sides and in front). OF COURSE THEY ARE NOT 10000% SAME, BECAUSE IT WOULD BE PLAGIARISM. In that Farstriders Retret they modified this, for example added dome on top, but still similar. But tell your opinions guys!!! Love <3
Shylvian (talk) 08:59, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Edit because Photo broken my text qwq Shylvian (talk) 08:59, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Okay I did more research an now I have few things to say. Firstly, several articles on internet (For example that https://enchantedlivingmagazine.com/j-r-r-tolkiens-art-nouveau-elvenlands/ ) states LOTR elves connection to the Art Nouveau. That may be a reason why it was also used while creating Blood Elves architecture. I searched examples of Art Nouveau buildings and found Mexikoplatz in Berlin (don't mistake with Austrian) looking similar to BE buildings https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mexikoplatz_B-Schlachtensee_06-2017.jpg . Morover, I don't think that BE spires are based on minarets. Inspired by people saying their opinions on this topic before me, I think that they simply wanted to add towers to the game. We have towers in every culture, not only in one. Also, their endings (that very top) also is not special for one culture. For exaple we see similar tower with a balcony in Art Noveau building in Barcelona https://www.featurepics.com/StockImage/20121018/barcelona-stock-picture-2441857.jpg or on that Karlskirche in Vienna which I mentioned before. The inspiration from LOTR Elves is evidenced by this newspaper interview from "Computer Gaming World #257". So LOTR is the only confirmed inspiration, others are speculations. I have one question which I had in head now for those who really stick to that theory of Blood Elven minarets, if the authors really looked to the minarets as an inspiration, why are they not called minarets in the game, but spiers (Sunfury Spire) or watchtowers (that one on Hellfire Peninsula)? From me I want to say that I was really wrong with that Byzantine inspirations. Now I think that following LOTR, BE architecture is more like Art Nouveau.
Shylvian (talk) 12:49, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
- So to summarize:
General Theme: Confirmed to be Tolkien-esque ("Legolas going down a dark path"), contrast to Night Elves
Pavillon towers --> Most likely Baroque. No reason to assume they are supposed to resemble Ottoman minarets.
Other Blood Elf houses ----> Similarities to LOTR video game aesthetics
Interior design: Inns have "oriental" feel: cushions, hookahs, curtains instead of doors. ( Same theme in "Den of Mortal Delights")
Boats: Arguably similar to Chinese junk ships
Art Nouveau: Most likely just fan speculation (based on the original edit) that got falsely attributed to Blizzard.
Would be nice to contact another mod, because as far as I can tell, the other dude now just ignores the discussion and feels very stubborn about the "Blood Elves are primarily MENA representation"-hypothesis.EvilMorrigan (talk) 14:07, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Like Eithris said and seems that most of people agree, let's stick to obvious inspirations. I already made an edit since seemingly no one you can. But adding to that "minarets" why not call that towers a lighthouses? There are lighthouses looking similar, so maybe stop forcing your opinion and culture on others? About ships there indeed are MANY ships that look similar, so instead of spaming thousands types of the ships we can see just avoid it? BE ships seems to be really original. NOT ALWAYS developers insert things from a real life cultures into their game. They just use imagination. As said before, the ONLY inspiration for BE elves were LOTR Elves and I would love to remove every other things from that inspiration section but this would be "vandalism". All others "inspirations" should have another section called "SPECULATIONS". MyEditTime (talk) 17:30, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
- Am okay with the changes. I wouldn't call the towers lighthouses though.EvilMorrigan (talk) 19:26, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
- They are as much lighthouses as minarets. But if someone still wants to spread that fake info, I must say that lighthouses speculation is more accurate. As you know, on the middle of the lighthouse you have a lightsource and on the middle of one of Blood Elven spires, probably the only one that we can get on top we have a magical orb. I'm talking about the spire in the Falcon Watch location, go check it. Oh and if someone still wants to force "Arab Elves" agenda on others, just remember that Blood Elves eat pork (Go to a random Silvermoon Inn and look on tables or what Innkeepers sell) and that's forbiden for most of the Arab world. Oh and since there is a mention of phoenix origins, I also added a mention about Elves origins in mythology, that should be fair. MyEditTime (talk) 19:57, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
I also think that now is good. I just hope that people will talk on the talk page before adding something randomly and there will be a discussion. Still much love and thanks for correcting my mistakes <3 Shylvian (talk) 20:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Silvermoon - Tirion inspirations and Warhammer.
Hi, it's me again! I think that I've found the most likely inspiration for Blood Elven architecture. I've looked at elven architecture from Tolkien's work, and I've found Tirion, an elven city from Silmarillion. If we look at an illustration from that book from 2000 ( https://www.tednasmith.com/tolkien/earendil-searches-tirion/ ), we can see some similarities between that two cities. Of course both cities are elven. Both cities have domes and spires and Tirion's spires resemble those in Silvermoon ( https://imgur.com/a/6XZzBbE ). Moreover, in the book Tirion is described to have white walls and many towers of white stone and the highest was the Mindon Eldaliéva. Mindon Eldaliéva could inspire the Sunfury Spire, but that's my speculation. Both are the biggest towers in their cities and a home for government. There are also other similarities, like this place in Tirion ( https://imgur.com/a/A65riVX ) could inspire that building on the middle of the street near the gate of Silvermoon (that one https://www.deviantart.com/byorrsingyr/art/WoW-Silvermoon-City-273974887 ). Worth noticing is also a fact, that the city of Tirion is located in the region of Aman, and as we all know, Blood Elves always had problems with Amani Tribe, since they came on that tribe's lands. It may be a coincidence, but still interesting. Of course the main difference is that the roofs of the buildings in Tirion are green, and Silvermoon's were blue in the past and now they are red. I think that Tirion could inspire the devs, because it's unlikely, that while making Blood Elves as a "Legolas as if he went down a pretty heavy path" ( I'm reffering to that interview http://www.cgwmuseum.org/galleries/issues/cgw_257.pdf#page=67 ) they wouldn't know Silmarillion, which has a really much informations about elves and along with The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, it is one of the main works of Tolkien. Of course Silvermoon could also simply be continuation of Kaldorei Empire architecture, but since it's a talk page I wanted to discuss that topic.
Shylvian (talk) 19:19, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
- I also found out, that the architecture could be inspired by High Elven architecture from Warhammer (https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/High_Elves), We see there a similar towers too (this is a screenshot from the game https://ekaslime.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/plaza.jpg . But keep in mind that the game came out in something like 2010, however the actual Warhammer franchise is much older, for example that book: https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_Armies:_High_Elves_(4th_Edition) came out in 1993 and frist edition of the game is from 1983). Of course Warhammer High Elves were most likely also inspired by Tolkien's works, so maybe that explains a smilarity in both architectures. For more architecture of High Elves from Warhammer just type in google "High Elves Warhammer architecture" or go here to the gallery section https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/High_Elves . In my opionion, the Blood Elven architecture could be inspired by both, Tirion from Silmarillion and High Elven architecture from Warhammer.
- Interesting thing that I've noticed this time is that guy https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/File:Finubar.jpg or better to say his armor. It resembles Blood Elven heritage armor https://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2018/october/bloodElfHeritageMale.jpg just look at that wings motifs, the helm (BE doesn't actually have that top of the helm, but the front of the helm and wings on the sides is pretty similar, right?) and the fact that both armors are like robes. Also, both of them have crystal near belt place (BE - Green, Warhammer Elves - Red) The Blood Elven armor is from 2018, and the armor from Warhammer is much older (I've noticed it on that video from 2009 https://youtu.be/ZQxZcJn-LX8?t=67 but probably the picture is even older). Worth noticing is also a fact, that High Elves from Warhammer also use phoenix motifs, not only in architecture but also in the titles. For example https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Phoenix_King is the ruler of high elves.
Shylvian (talk) 17:13, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- I've found a possible confirmation to my theory. In that article https://kotaku.com/how-warcraft-was-almost-a-warhammer-game-and-how-that-5929161 we can read that "Warhammer was a huge inspiration for the art-style of Warcraft" and it was said by [Blizzard co-founder] Allen Adham. Shylvian (talk) 17:49, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, since no one seems to care anymore, even though most of you are active and editing diffrent sites, I updated the inspirations. Shylvian (talk) 09:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
- Or maybe just people don't have time to sit on this site 24/7? Anyway, your arguments are very good. Forcing a fantasy race to a total random irl culture with no connections to elves is really dumb and actually offensive. MyEditTime (talk) 21:16, 25 July 2021 (UTC)