Hard hitting

This guy is an animal. honestly he hits fairly hard, but he takes very little damage. Take on 8 elite onyxia guards on his own, Awesome to see CJ 08:25, 9 Feb 2006 (EST)

Wow what a freak... oh, and by chance, does anyone know how much health points he has?

He seems to have about 525,000 HP (which is quite normal for a PvP boss) and he'll hit you for 800 DPS (without considering damage reduction by armor, resistances, etc. so in reality, a tank may take about ~400 DPS or so .. depending on buffs, gear, etc.). I don't know how accurate these numbers are but this should be quite close to his real statistics. Privatekey 12:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

This guy takes forever to kill in a 40-man of 60's. Had 10 warriors/rogue, 15 hunters, and 15 warlocks barely able to take him down. It's like cutting down an oak with a plastic hammer.

Yeah, I love watching him kill those dragon things. I usually watch him do it. I dont understand how he can do cleave, which means to cut and do Hammer of Justice

I should imagine all PvP City Bosses have around the same amount of HP to make it fair to both factions, most of these bosses have around 1 Million HP, its their class abilities that determin their difficulty. These bosses are easy without interference from the enemy faction, all hit for around the same amount depending on gear Valnar 20:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, every boss has a 'mirror' with similar HP/MP (if applicable) except maybe Velen and the Silvermoon Triumvirate? I've noticed Varian and Thrall, as well as Magni and Cairne, are pretty similar as far as HP and such go, only real difference being Thrall has mana and Varian has a chin that acts like a rage generator ;) - Ohten

Unstoppable Juggernaut

His damage scales with the targets level so thus, A Boss ??, VS, Boss ?? would have un-expected results...As its +3 to a level but then...Would that mean that there level would keep rising? And to the point they would One Shot eachother? Or would the game crash?

It's not the damage that scales. His statistics (HP, Armor, DPS, Abilities, etc.) are static, it's the hit/crit/miss chance that scales. Pre-TBC bosses have an actual level of 63 so if two pre-TBC bosses were fighting each other, each of those would hit/crit/miss like a "Level 66" mob (since his target is "Level 63"). Bosses added after the expansion were given an actual level of 73, so BC-bosses fighting each other would hit/crit/miss like "Level 76" mobs. Privatekey 21:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
You can actually see that the game will not crash or show odd behaviour in a "Boss vs Boss" situation when someone's kiting an outdoor raid boss to a faction leader. There are videos of Teremus and Highlord Kruul being kited into Stormwind, fighting the faction leader Fordragon. "Teremus vs. Fordragon" usually results in a victory for Fordragon while Kruul will take down the human faction leader with ease. Faction leaders and PvP bosses in general (for example the Generals on Alterac Valley battleground) aren't very strong bosses (compared to most outdoor or raid instance bosses). They are only difficult to kill because of PvP action against the enemy raid. Privatekey 12:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Why no tactics page, Kirk?

There's a tactics page for Cairne, whom I've heard is one of the easiest bosses. There are tips on how to defeat Thrall on his page. Why nothing for Bolvar? Magni? Tyrande?--Illidan Rocks 09:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Extra pages are only created when there is a need - i.e. the main page becomes too large. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 15:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Thank you.--Illidan Rocks 08:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


Maybe he is the son or a relative of Lady Mara Fordragon that is immortalized in a statue in Stormwind? --N'Nanz 11:39, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Most likely.Baggins 11:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
What about to add to the article? --N'Nanz 11:51, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Just add it to the NPC box.Baggins 11:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I searched for it: [[1]]. It's said she was her mother --N'Nanz 12:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia doesn't give a source. Remember it can be just as fallable as any other peer-edited source.Baggins 12:55, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
For this reason I put "perhaps" --N'Nanz 12:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Main Picture

Where is that picture from? It's hideous, and doesn't even look anything like Mr. Fordragon. Just compare the faces! Looks like fan art to me. --Pure.Wasted 10:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Alliance Player's Guide. In the picture if you look at his right there is a staff carried by a little hand. If you look at the image in Lady Katrana Prestor page she holds the same staff in her left hand and an anormous fist is visible. That image comes from the Alliance Player's Guide. --N'Nanz 10:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
So it is an official source; that muddles the issue somewhat. I can't see why it would be so drastically different to the in-game appearance (and not in a good way). Oh well, official is official. Thanks for the head's up about where it came from. --Pure.Wasted 10:45, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, what's official? This is WoWWiki, I think that an image from WoW should be the main picture. THat really goes for Katrana and lil' King Anduin too.Blackhawk003 (talk) 00:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Its an official image, and alot of characters look different than they do in game in much of their artwork (sylvanas anyone?)... Also I wouldn't call them drastically different, other than the armor (and people can change their clothes), they both are humans, both have beards (yes a one beard is longer than the other but beards can grow and can be trimmed). sure he is wearing a skullcap helmet in the artwork, but that's not truly a physical difference. In anycase as more artwork is released we can use whichever is the best. However our main reason for using artwork is because there is a difference in the appearance of characters in comparison to the ingame model. The problem with ingame models is the look too much like everyone else using the model. This is especially true of the young anduin wrynn, that looks just like the orphan you can carry around with you during Children's Week.Baggins (talk) 00:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Well hunting around I discovered there is a very nice image of him in the TCG that would be perfect for the infobox[2]. Unforunately the scan qualities are very poor, the artwork too small and too small a resolution to do the infobox justice. If anyone can scan in that artwork, or find the original unmodified artwork on a website it would be appreciated.Baggins (talk) 01:29, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


Recently watched the BliizCon 07 wow lore panel, presented by Metzen and Lead quest designer, they discuss the expansion and its content, Around 9mins into the video they talk of Garrosh, Sylvanas, Bolvar and Brann being in Northrend, he clearly states that Bolvar will be moved from Stormwind to Northrend in the forefront of the fight against Arthas. So guess Lo'Gosh/Varian will be bought to Stormwind to replace the departed Highlord. Video is here (Valnar 18:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC))

As for the card game...

The statement giving in that section is wrong, if I may be that harsh. The picture of the trading card shows Bolvar in the situation everyone who's got the Onyxia-Prequest on alliance-site will know: The attack of the dragonkin after Onyxia got exposed and teleported away. The 'speculation' about that his name might comes just from him fighting dragonkin is therefor false (aside from the fact that we see the statue of his mother by the same surname in the gallery). Someone please change that part in the article.--Maibe (talk) 17:22, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

VERY radical idea, here... Why not remove it yourself? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 19:27, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe my english is good enough to rewrite it in an understandable form...--Maibe (talk) 14:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
If the above sample is typical of your English, then I have complete faith in you.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:05, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
thank you +blush* well, i shall give it a try next time i spot something.--Maibe (talk) 18:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
What I want to see is someone put up a good high resolution scan of the artwork from the card as a replacement for the infobox image. The small low res scans floating around on internet currently just won't do the artwork justice.Baggins (talk) 07:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

For now can we at least switch out the screenie and the art? it's horrific. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Is the new image I uploaded good enough?Dakovski (talk) 05:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
For me it is. We'll see what the Hobbit says.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


At the moment Bolvar's status is: "Killed during the battle for the Wrath Gate".
Therefore I wonder: Is Bolvar considered dead by the start of the expansion, or is he killed later on in a quest? If he is dead right from the start the status is okey, but if he is killed later on his status should be changed to "Killable".--WoWWiki-Odolwa (talk) 12:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually it's fine as it is, as, before you reach a certain level and do the qeustchain connected with the events that lead to his death, he's a questgiver in Northrend.--Maibe (talk) 13:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

WotLK's phasing system has greatly changed the way the story is told throughout the game. It's true that he is alive and kicking when you first get to Northrend, but he invariably dies every time and is then completely gone from the player's game after the quest is finished. I think his status should reflect what ultimately happens to him, to keep in tone with the sense of progression of the story. --Dalarius (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

No, the status should reflect his whereabouts at the start of the game, in accordance to WoWWiki's neutrality. Take the articles on Taelan Fordring and Grand Inquisitor Isillien for example: They are also killed in a quest. The same goes for all instance-bosses.--WoWWiki-Odolwa (talk) 09:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Note, as the storyline is progressed by manuals, novels, etc, whatever, locking down certain deaths, without the Player's direct intervention then that death will be listed. Taelen as far as I know is "dead" at the start of Wrath of the Lich King's plotline. If that's confirmed by the Northrend storyline then it will be taken into account.Baggins (talk) 10:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
The articles listed all have the NPCs listed as either Killable or Killed. For instance, take a look at Saurfang the Younger's status. Dalarius (talk) 19:06, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Note Renault Mograine for current preferred method. Policies may undergo changes in the future however. I feel Killed for Saurfange the Younger is fair, unless someting denies it in the future... We have had to change "Muradin's" status from killed to alive, due to story changes.Baggins (talk) 19:26, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
"Killable" should only be applies to NPC who are killed by players as part of the plot/quest chain. Therefore, if the character is killed by another NPC in a scripted event, he is not Killable. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:40, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Allright, not "Killable" then. So Bolvar and the others should simply be considered "Alive"?--WoWWiki-Odolwa (talk) 10:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

That depends on whether we start treating beta plot developments as having already happened. If we are, then the usual "Killed by..." or some other description will do. If we want to treat these developments as not having happened yet, then we consider them alive. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I had not taken into account the fact the game is still in Beta for story development, but, if the Wiki will contain information directly from the Beta before it is live, then it is fair to assume that whatever plot development is seen there has also happened by now. Bolvar's fate is the same as Saurfang the Younger, their status should match. "Killed at the battle for the Wrathgate" is accurate. I understand the hesitation into taking something from the game as straight canon considering the past volatility shown in questlines and whole events basically denied later on, but, with all due respect, the phasing system changes everything as far as storytelling goes. Either way, I'm derailing enough as it is. "Killed at the battle for the Wrathgate" should be an acceptable description of Bolvar's state. Dalarius (talk) 13:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


I am one of the few individuals who can speak Draconic due to a bug that occurred when 3.0.3 came out. There's very very important dialogue between Korialstrasz and Alexstrasza after the Wrathgate event:

   Korialstrasz says: My Queen, do they know?
   Alexstrasza the Life-Binder says: No, my beloved.
   Alexstrasza the Life-Binder says: [Draconic] Ashj zila gul kirasath lok ante il lok buras danashj Gul gul
   Korialstrasz nods.
   Korialstrasz says: They will not.
   Alexstrasza whispers: Come to me, <name>.

This is the dialogue you see when Alexstrasza is talking to Korialstrasz... But... I can speak, and apparently also, read Draconic.

Here is what that line of text really says: Alexstrasza: [Draconic] They must not discover the fate of the young paladin. Not yet.

As I am not familiar with how to edit wikis all that much, could someone please put a speculation tag under Bolvar's article that he might bestill alive?

--- Moniker, a gnome rogue on U.S. server, Draenor

Maybe the bug was intentional, maybe Blizzard did it to give a "hint" to us. Pudim17 (talk) 12:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
We'll need a screenshot or something with the translation before we can put it in. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 14:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Highlord Bolvar could be a Death Knight now

Hmm, i wonder.... I think its possible that Bolvar is now a Death Knight! think about it theres a few facts on how this could be: 1. Highlord Bolvar is a paladin 2. He's a former member of the Silver Hand like Arthas was 3. He is most likely the perfect "Hero" that Arthas would turn into a Death Knight. I know these arent straight facts but. its possible! can anyone say boss in Icecrown Citdel or a major character in a War Event.--Sig:IconSmall DragonBlue.gifUser: Maelstrong 20:21, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh btw, Ragestorm before u go and be a party pooper and say that this is not a forum like u always do, let me point out that i'm stating facts on how this is a possiblity, not making a fan fiction.--Sig:IconSmall DragonBlue.gifUser: Maelstrong 20:34, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you need to know the difference between a forum and a fan fiction... --N'Nanz (talk) 20:55, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
The only problem is that his body was incinerated along with all of the other casualties of the Wrathgate by the red dragonflight. On the other hand, we know that Arthas took Saurfang's soul, so there does exist a possibility there. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Being completely incinerated/obliterated/disintegrated hasn't stopped people from being revived by the Scourge. Look at Dar'Khan Drathir. Maybe blizz will say ghouls dragged his body underground before the fire could get to him. Or blizz could just ignore that he was burned and put him in as a DK anyway. --Truckman1 23:45, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

There is a possibility that Alexstrasza was flying off-screen and her flames could have some effect on the bodies. After all, she is the Life-binder. As those lines stated, Fordragon could be a Death Knight. A better plot twist COULD be that he was actually a Red Dragon in disguise as Paladin? -Llanerian 22:37, 28 December 2008

I think he was pretty much Human. Rolandius Paladin.gif (talk - contr) 06:22, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

We dont know much about him, so why wouldn't he be a Red Dragon? It'd be a REAL plot twist then, seeing as his hair color is abit leaned towards red, why not? -Llanerian 12:40, 30 December 2008

First of all, he is classed as Humanoid, not Dragonkin. Secondly, if Bolvar would had been a dragon, he would probably not had fallen so easily for the manipulation by Onyxia when he was Regent Lord of Stormwind.--WoWWiki-Odolwa (talk) 17:30, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Also if he were a dragon the other dragons would probably know. And when talking among themselves there would be no need to pretend otherwise, as very few mortals understand Draconic. So in that line after the Wrathgate event they wouldn't refer to "the young paladin", but instead to whatever his dragon name would be. User:Jormungand01/sig 18:30, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Not a DK but what if he was a dragon that lost his "older race" status to become a humanoid mortal as the payment of some kind of wish/miracle he accomplished in the past? For example to revive/saveguard somebody/a whole nation?) 2 cents... --N'Nanz (talk) 16:28, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

That's nicely folk-tale-ish, but what's the precedent in Warcraft?--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 18:12, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't remember very well but I read on somepage about Miracles, Wishes and a third well-doing action that can be performed/interceded by an eternal (or however a powerful being) for the good of other individuals. This third action (I don't remember its name) caused the caster to lose a part of his power as a payment/sacrifice for the good of the target of the action. Perhaps has something to do with K'ure in Oshu'gun, D'ore in Auchindoun, or M'uru in Silvermoon... I can't remember. However I'm gonna check around. Maybe you can help? I remember only it was already on a page of wowwiki. Does anybody has any idea? --N'Nanz (talk) 00:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, in 3.1's sound files apparently someone datamined a set from Arthas's Prisoner, or Prisoner of Arthas, and the voice I heard in the PTR was identical to Bolvar's. Perhaps he is being brought back as a death knight. Perhaps a future power struggle within the Knights of the Ebon Blade? Also, in reply to Nanz's remark, isn't that the spell Aegwynn used to bring Jaina back from the brink of death at the price of her ability to harness magic? - Ohten

Don't mean to interrupt, but speculating won't reveal it. Besides, this is a talk page, conversations like this belong on the forums. BobNamataki (talk) 20:51, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

State of the Article

Awful lot of speculation and general fan chatting going on in here, but in the meantime the article looks fairly absurd, with WotLK info up top AND old BC/Vanilla info presented as present tense current info right below it. It seems to me the whole article should be reorganized to reflect the game's progress. Any objections? Sarukun (talk) 18:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Here are few of Yogg-Sarons audio files ( that last one, were Lich King tortures a prisoner, the prisoner sounds disturbingly Bolvar, but it is also possible that blizz is just lazy to hire new voice actors, opinions? Noobi666 (talk) 08:13, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Hes right, i just compared the voice of Bolvar in the Wrathgate scene to the voice of the prisoner being tortured by arthas.... they match. So this means that Bolvar is still alive and being tortured by arthas. I mean come on, Yogg-Saron is giving images of events that caused something devistating or whatever you want to call it, Wrathgate was infact devistating. One thing I dont get is why the scene Yogg-saron takes us is in the Shadow Vault.--IconSmall DragonBlue.gif Maelstrong 20:22, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

It's too early to make that call. Do you remember when everyone swore up and down that Sylvanas was betraying the Horde after hearing the Wrathgate audio? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

nope, too many people were saying that thrall was dieing during the Battle for UC Beta, dont bring this into a discussion, but come on who else is it then? but whatever, everyone who says its bolvar and it really is gets to boast and tell wowwiki "I TOLD U"! lol, jk, but seriously, i really think its bolvar--IconSmall DragonBlue.gif Maelstrong 01:57, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Bill Roper did every voice in Warcraft II, to the best of my knowledge. Do you think Blizzard wouldn't use the same voice actor for a single line in a fight? I mean, ok, it COULD be Bolvar, but we definitely shouldn't assume that it is him because it's his voice. Dorque (talk) 20:11, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Arthas' Prisoner

To quote from the main article 'Lich King may also refer to Saurfang the Younger, horde leader at the Wrathgate who was killed by him. Seeing how a dark orc figure walks up after he says this line'. Is anyone able to link a video or screen shot from the yogg saron encounter that proves or disproves this claim? Valnar (talk) 10:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Got no screenshot right now, but a video of the encounter shows the Lich King tourmenting a human, but the human is darkened (to the black of a shade) so you can't tell who he is.
IconSmall Hamuul.gif Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (talk/contribz) 19:17, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I've been trying to get the NPC ID's for the model viewer to see if its possible to see the model "unshadowed." So far, no luck. I haven't been able to aquire any of the npc flashback ID's. It might clear up some confusion... or complicate things. :P I found out about Arator and Rhonin's model changes this way.--Blayaden (talk) 15:05, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I haven't seen the fight - but I'm the original creator of the speculation article about it [Deffinetly not the first to think of it though, it's widely supported now]. However, whoever keeps deleting the speculation - STOP IT, or provide a half-decent rebuddle for doing so. The speculation makes sense, has many supporters and editors, and is more than possible. There is no reason to remove it, for it is tagged as nothing more than speculationa t the time. However, if you can find the model for the figure that would be awesome - would clear up alot... however theres alot of people it could be. Any ideas about Yogg-Sarons insight into this event though? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rapoirier (talk · contr).
There's plenty of reason to remove it. Like the fact that it's speculating about them being future bosses. That's always a big no-no. Ragestorm even supported me once when I removed some bad speculation like that a while ago on Saurfang the Younger's page.
Originally when I removed the edit (I only did it once, I didn't do it any of those other times...), it was that reason and the fact that there were some grammar/spelling mistakes. I kind of just reacted on instinct when I saw "probally", especially since "probally" isn't really such a good word...possibly is what should've been used. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 23:04, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Not to mention, speculation ain't always the best. I mean, we speculated about Ashbringer tons. I was so sure Alexandros' other son was Turalyon, but POOF! Whaddayouknow? IT'S DARION MOGRAINE, A COMPLETELY NEW CHARACTER THAT BLIZZ PULLED RIGHT OUT OF IT'S @$$!!!!! Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 23:07, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I hope somebody can post a screenshot of the shadowy figures. Possibly the Orc one too. It's definitely sealed as Bolvar and Saurfang though. I mean, come on... Alexstrasza telling bugging(?) telling us that we should not yet know of the fate of the young Paladin (Bolvar was the only Paladin known in the fight), the shadows are an Orc and Human? Hello? Saurfang and Bolvar are Orc and Human. Besides that, the prisoner's voice is just too similar. It's Bolvar, guaran--damn--teed. I also agree with Truckman1 on the whole "either ghouls dragged him beneath the ground or they'll ignore him being burnt, like Dar'Khan Drathir."Bigstackstwo (talk) ??:??, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I gotta say guy's I've looked at ALOT of speculation in the past, and quite frankly I don't usually get dragged into them. This to me is too certain though, and you'd have to be handicapped not to say it's deffinetly a probability. You don't have to delete and entire piece of work just because theres a few things you don't agree with in them - IT'S A WIKI, CHANGE IT YOURSELF, DON'T JUST LAZILY ERASE IT. Besides, why keep the other speculation up then? Not to mention - when Blizzard does reuse voice actors, they usually manipulate their voice or filter it somehow - this is cold turkey the same thing, and alot of evidence points to it. I don't care if 'probabally' [Not probally] isn't possibly, or I said that he MIGHT return in Icecrown. That's MY small theory in the LARGE theory. CHANGE IT, I don't really care. But unless you can provide a compelling argument that isn't based around YOUR opinion being wrong in HISTORY, or you can provide another page or something (I'm a wiki noob) that's allowed and will show up results do it. But until then, change, don't delete a valid argument - that's the bitch way out.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rapoirier (talk · contr).

The theory is good, sound, and makes sense. However, we don't like large speculation-only sections, so either trim it down- a LOT- or remove it. And please sign your own posts.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I've removed it till it's "trimmed down".Warthok Talk Contribs 03:26, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I personally think we should wait until there is further evidence until we put the "speculation" about the Yogg-saron encounter... There is also another problem- what if the two- "shadowy" characters have undead/deathknight skins? It will be pretty hard to recognize them as either character. Dang I wish I could find the ID's....--Blayaden (talk) 14:35, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I will take a screenshot the next time I do Yogg-Saron. But the event has Arthas tormenting a prisoner who is named 'Immolated Champion' which basically confirms it is Bolvar. While this is going on a shadowy orc is beside them watching who is clearly Saurfang and it is he who the Lich King is referring to. It works out pretty well also considering the Icecrown Citadel 5 man we saw get added into the game files in 3.1 which gives a perfect place to fight one or both of them. Leviathon (talk) 05:50, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I repeat, a small, one to three line note, with maybe a screenie to back it up is fine, I just don't want a drawn-out section.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

With the new revelation from 'Rise of The Lich King', there are 2 possibilities, Bolvar and Saurfang, OR Arthas and Nerzhul. Only time will tell. Pudim17 (talk - contr) 13:50, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

You're mistakin' Pudim17. Unless the Lich King is some kind of mentaly-ill person, he can't say either:
  • Nerz'hul as the lich king: "I'll break you (arthas), as I broke myself"
  • Arthas as the lich king: "I'll break you (nerz'hul), as I broke myself"
Beside, if the shades were arthas/nerz'hul, how could that be ? nerz'hul gets out from arthas to torture him a bit (and so whose body is in the armor ?).
We should all wait for the outcome to come and stop speculating like hell. :)
IconSmall Hamuul.gif Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (talk/contribz) 15:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

agreed, after all Yogg-saron fight is still in PRT, they could be working on who it is, or they're still working on the model for Garnoa for the Assinastion of King LIane vision. we will know soon enough.--IconSmall DrakonidBlue.gifMaelstrong 21:42, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I hope it IS Bolvar was a great character, and I don't want to see him gone just like that. I dearly hope this isn't another Volkhan/Tharon'ja voice thing. Same voice, different character. (Bigstackstwo (talk) 01:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC))

"was" or "is" a great character?--Icon Azgalor.jpgMaelstrong 02:48, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Maelstrong you seem a bit confused. Yogg-Saron is not still on the PTR (I assume that's what you meant) and everything there is in its final state. Leviathon (talk) 08:38, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

OK then, I don't know how the database of wowhead got refreshed but it seems that a Immolated Champion exists there. Here's the link: [3]. Now no screenshot is available but if you click on the "view in 3D" button on the far right of the name it opens a flash/java applet that gives a 3D model. I repeat I don't know how the database got updated but but this model is a human, clarly undead (face model remember a lot a member of the Cult of the Damned), naked but of leggings and belt that are quite the same as the ones Bolvar wears. --N'Nanz (talk) 11:17, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

This is the model comparison. Highlord Bolvar Fordragon's one intentionally lacks the lower part of Stormwind's tabard. --N'Nanz (talk) 11:47, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

ImmolateChampion compared to Fordragon.jpg

Here is Saurfang in the vision as the 'Turned Champion'. Leviathon (talk) 18:37, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

blizzard has been playing with us. They purposly put in the bug so we could read that text and start all this speculation. Why? TO MAKE BOLVAR POPULAR!, Bolvar failed to be popular like Saurfang did in the gates of AQ, now Blizz has pulled some strings here and there. The sounds files were purposely leaked i bet. AND the Immolated Champion thing is another specukation bucket made by blizzard, they couldnt just say Highlord Bolvar because that would too easy.....

well played Blizzard..... well played--Icon Azgalor.jpgMaelstrong 01:00, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you, I'm sure that bug was done on purpose. Pudim17 (talk - contr) 01:41, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I do not know about Turalyon and Ashbringer, but the "him" in the Lich Kings taunt is either Ner'zhul (Per the end of A:RotLK), or the orc that is likely Saurfang. It may not be a bug, I know I have seen other NPCs that have their tabards cut off (Not just ones with skirts). I doubt Blizzard is playing with the community. If they are, it is foreshadowing (See Act), not trying to make Bolvar popular. Both commanders at the Wrath Gate had fact crazes (Well the one's father, but Saurfang Jr. is just awesome that Saurfang sweated off), and both those crazes were started by fans, not Blizzard.--SWM2448 02:49, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I doubt it is any fun or attempts at trickery on Blizzards part also. The tabard being cut isn't a bug and is just a setting Blizzard can do with the models (they disabled the lower part of the tabard). I think they just are continuing the story and with this proved that we are going to be seeing Saurfang and Bolvar again with 3.3 most likely. Leviathon (talk) 07:34, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Ehy guys what are you saying!? Fordragon's model has a complete tabard. In the picture below you see only half of it because I screencaptured before the lower part was loaded in the java applet just to show up the leggings as a whole. The lower part of the tabard was missing INTENTIONALLY BY ME, not Blizz. Good finding for the Turned Champion, Leviathon ;D --N'Nanz (talk) 09:46, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
OK, either cease this discussion or take it to our new Forums, because we are no longer talking about the article.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:33, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

CONFIRMED: Fordragon is in Icecrown Citadel

[4] - I think this answers that question once and for all. --Joshmaul (talk) 14:44, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

I will accept that as not datamined or photoshopped.--SWM2448 17:35, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
I'd find it easier to accept if his body had simply lain there instead of being incinerated by dragonfire. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 17:37, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
Don't confuse the issue with facts. Snake.gifSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3.gifFor Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 17:40, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

And it's all over

Bolvar is the new Lich King. [5] --Crusaderesper (talk) 14:27, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

What happened to him before this? He's all burned.-WoWWiki-Odolwa (talk) 16:03, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

He was immolated by Alexstrasza's flames at the end of the Wrathgate event. --Crusaderesper (talk) 16:18, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Ah, of course. I'm rather puzzled now. Where is Bolvar gonna keep the Scourge soldiers now? Will he create a jail inside Icecrown Citadel and keep them there? It would be easier to just force them into suicide. The whole "there must always be a Lich King" don't make much sense to me.WoWWiki-Odolwa (talk) 16:40, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Without a Lich King to control them, the scourge would run rampant and cause much more chaotic havoc then if they were controlled, technically there doesn't have to be a Lich King, but it would be disastrous if there weren't. With Bolvar in "command" the scourge will likely still remain alive where they are, but without a purpose, thus being much less of a threat. RedFlag (talk) 20:45, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

I doubt the Blood Elves and Undead Forsaken will appreciate if Bolvar is keeping the Scourge forces in Tirisfal Glades and Eversong Woods..WoWWiki-Odolwa (talk)

Do we have a world Confirmed Kill of Arthas yet? Until we do we cant confirm him as being the new lich king although i do agree it seems likely Dragoon13570 (talk) 00:55, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, we already know. The cinematic video is pretty conclusive. --PcjWowpedia wiki manager (TDrop me a line!C207,729 contributions and counting) 00:57, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
Once we have that confirmation, can we link the cinematic (already on youtube as of a few hours ago, so I'm going to assume that someone has already done it, ) to the page? Del-phoenix (talk) 06:52, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

No one has done it yet; it was datamined by Bouibouille of MMO-Champion. --Gophrr (talk) 07:40, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for confirming that - will wait until we get a positive death of Arthas before doing that. Del-phoenix (talk) 08:16, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
Well Blood Legion of Illidan US killed him today (or yesterday depending on which timezone you're in) in the 10man version. Aedror42 (talk) 22:16, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Status: The Lich King

Don't you think it's a bit misleading to have "the Lich King" as status, since that article is about the Ner'zhul/Arthas version of the Lich King? I'm not sure it's even appropriate to call Bolvar a Lich King: Does it automatically make you a Lich King because you have the Scourge under your control?-WoWWiki-Odolwa (talk) 10:28, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

It may be that we're going to need to wait a bit to truly understand what Blizz is doing here in regards to the Lore, then we can have the pages in these contexts rewritten as they need to be to reflect the changes. Del-phoenix (talk) 10:40, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion, yes - the Lich King is generally used to refer to the one in the helmet. In Warcraft III, it's Ner'zhul. Throughout World of Warcraft, it's Arthas. After Arthas' death, it's now Bolvar. I think "Lich King" is as much a title as it is the man who carries it. --Joshmaul (talk) 11:01, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
Lich King is not a status. Status will be either "active" or "presumed dead" since Tirion is probably the only one who knows the truth. Bolvar can still be considered the new Lich King, if only based on the way that Terenas phrased it ("there must always be a Lich King"), but it's still a title. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:51, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Faction Alignment

It seems that Bolvar is still considered a member of the Alliance. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to have him classified a a Neutral character? Along with like Tirion and Alexstrasza? Tanooki1432 (talk) 22:38, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

For the moment, we're still keeping him as Alliance, both because most of his life has been in service to the Alliance and because we're trying to keep things in-universe, where nobody knows that he's the Lich King. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:33, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


I heard Bolvar appears in Hyjal. Hallowseve15 (talk) 23:18, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

You heard wrong. --Sairez (talk) 02:51, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

Bolvar's image

I'm curious, seeing how Arthas' image is of him pre-corruption, shouldn't Bolvar's picture also be pre-Lich King? Don't want to make unnecessary waves or anything, just curious.--TheUltimate (talk) 16:51, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

The picture of Bolvar in his character box is of his pre-Lich King status. --Sairez (talk) 19:41, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
Not to be offensive, but when TheUltimate posted that, his image was of his POST-Lich King appearance. Its all good now.--Blayaden (talk) 00:44, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
Ah, I was unaware of that.--Sairez (talk) 00:46, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Bolvar loading screen - speculation

Bolvar's smile.jpg

Something's strange about the picture. If you watch closly Bolvar actually smiles gazing at his hands... Which's weird in his new state - unless he actually enjoys it? And what if he was actually broken and now without Arthas part of Lich King's soul, the new Lich King is fully Ner'zhul? For instance Scourge army can be devided into 2 sub-groups - Willing and Unwilling Servants. Tell me now why those who are unwilling will still serve the Scourge in Cataclysm (for example Auruius the Pure changed into a DK now replaces Baron Rivendare), while those who were Lich King's chosen and his most faithful servants, the val'kyr sided with Sylvanas? Maybe it's all his new plot? Sylvanas recent transgression after she was ressurected by Val'kyr suggests that she might once again be under Lich Kings control.

Maybe we could add additional Speculation/Cata section saying something like "Currently Scourge actions on Azeroth are reduced to a minimum, but who knows what are the true motives of the Jailer of the Damned?". Encaitar (talk) 14:56, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I see a neutral expression, and I believe that you are a bit far from the Scourge plotline (too much conspiracy imo ^^)
IconSmall Hamuul.gif Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (talk/contribz) 18:45, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Looks like a cringe to me.--SWM2448 18:49, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Still it's hard to believe that Blizzard would add all "there must always be the Lich King" for now reason. And about the expression, that's hard to be called neutral. He's showing his teeth!(add magnified and brightened image so that's visible now) Encaitar (talk) 19:53, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm late to the discussion here, but I always thought that looked like a cry of anguish or pain. JordanTH (talk) 05:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Faction? Alliance or Scourge?

I'm not sure what would really apply to him, but I think Alliance seems about right. He might not be off killing Horde, but like Malfurion, Liadrin, Thrall etc he has (or had) a very clear role for his faction. What do we think? Kellykins (talk) 21:16, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

While he may once have been Alliance, and probably still sympathizes with them, he's no longer part of them. Scourge for sure. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:12, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
True enough I guess, hes really not himself anymore frozen in that iceblack... the tituliar Lich King isn't something I expect to see on the Alliance's side anytime soon. Kellykins (talk) 21:16, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
That argument would apply if this page was about the Lich King title/role and not about Bolvar Fordragon the individual. He's always been a member of the Alliance, changing him to neutral because of a forced undeath would be like changing Dranosh' to neutral. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by wai257 (talk · contr).
I don't agree with wai. Dranosh's undeath turned him unwillingly in something very different that he was and I think that he could be considerated a another individual with other personallity and "ideas" (a mindless minion of the Lich King, unwillingly minion of the Undead army) and very (including his father) consider that "Dranosh died in Wrathgate" and he's history endded there and rebegan in a Deathbringer (he not "still" Dranosh). However, Bolvar survived in mind, and so, not lost his original mind and conscience for the Dark Lord and continued the "same" (different of Arthas and his Frostmourne) and also willingly agreed to join in the Scourge as the new Lich King leaving consciently the Alliance (as he had no way to continue in the original faction). Gabrirt (talk) 23:50, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
That implies that Arthas had nothing to do with his actions post Frostmourne corruption. Once he picked up Frostmourne, he stopped being Alliance and went Scourge and he stayed Scourge until he died. If Bolvar has been moved to neutral, then it only fits to reason that Arthas also switched to neutral.--TheUserKing (talk) 13:52, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
I do not understand why Bolvar is given a different treatment than Thrall even though they seem to be pretty much on the same situation. Bolvar never renounced the Alliance, he is the Jailer of the Damned for the same reason Thrall left his Warchief status and joined the Earthen Ring to help maintain the Maelstrom, because the world was in danger and they were the only ones that could save it. Serving the world and serving your faction are not mutually exclusive, many heroes can see past their faction warring and work for a bigger cause. Highlord Bolvar is still a member of the Alliance who was the only one who could stay in Icecrown and control the Scourge as their Jailer to protect the world. "Wai257 (talk) 13:12, 25 July 2011 (UTC)"
Imo Alliance (formerly), New Scourge {leader, incumbent) would fit here the best, as for the Alignment - Chaotic Neutral is likely to fit. IconSmall BloodElf2 Male.gif Encaitar (DiscussionDeeds) 13:48, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Silver Hand affiliation

It's presumed Bolvar was part of the Silver Hand because he was a paladin. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 17:04, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

I understand it that much too.--Mordecay (talk) 17:27, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Did Bolvar die?

User:Mordecay: On page 55 my copy doesn't say he was killed and reanimated, it just says "The flames of the red dragonflight had reanimated Bolvar after Angrathar, though he was horrifically charred beyond recognition." I can completely understand the assumption that "reanimate" must mean "bring back from the dead" given, you know, plague, Lich King, magic fantasy world, etc, but keep in mind dictionary definitions range from the fantasy-standard "bring back from the dead" to the significantly less dramatic "restore consciousness or vigor". The word alone is not a complete accounting of events.

Here's what I was citing, page 73: "Thought to have been killed by the plague at the battle of the Wrathgate, Bolvar was saved but charred beyond recognition by the flames of the red dragonflight." In my book "saved" usually means "prevented from dying" not "reanimated", but that too could be misleading. That page also lists his status as "deceased" even though he is, at worst, undead, so clearly there's some confusion. I won't bother linking the multiple non-Blizzard writers, both amateur and professional, who have spent time speculating over exactly what happened to Bolvar, since they're not primary sources, but suffice to say "died" is always surrounded with a healthy pair of sarcasm quotes and a good deal of hemming and hawing.

Bottom line, the question of what exactly happened to Bolvar is muddy - and intentionally so! This is a character whose "death" was designed from the start to be a fakeout, whose "survival" was designed from the start to be an unbelievable shocker, and whose in-universe legacy is that he's long dead. The whole thing is intended to screw up our perception of what "really" happened, to the extent any real life person even knows. This is the kind of question Metzen gets at Blizzcon and rolls his eyes and makes something up because it wasn't important during story writing and it'll probably be retconned later anyway. Whatever Bolvar's form, it's meant to be unique - we've seen plenty of pretty flowers pop up in the wake of red dragonflame, but never a living person before or since. It's pretty misleading to state unequivocally on this page that he was raised from the dead when even the best Blizzard source is wishy washy at best. (And frankly, even if the UVG did drop the actual phrase "died at the Wrathgate" - which it doesn't - and had no conflicting info - which it does - I wouldn't trust it much: this is an art book intended to summarize events from the lore as a supplement to beautiful portraits, not to create new definitive lore out of arcane confusing backstory, which is why it has a list of discrepancies and errors half a page long.)

Anyway, this is ultimately a minor point so I'm not going to battle anyone on this, but I do think it's wrong to phrase it like it's cut-and-dry when nobody really knows exactly what the process was that made Bolvar what he is now. I'm going to un-revert my edit, adding a page number this time, but if anyone's dead-set (hah) on saying he definitely died I guess I won't stop them. - jerodast (talk) 06:05, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Yep, we have the same UVGs :D and yes, I was referring to "reanimated" and the meaning you provided. I'm well aware of the author as well as "mistakes" but I think we should stick to the wording they used. On the other hand, I don't mind creating a (speculation) section where this problem would be detailed it's certainly worth a mention. Looking at your wording once again, "was kept at the edge of life" seems conflicting with "reanimated". Looking at the wrathgate cinematic, he turned on his back, saw the dragons nearing and as he took his final breath he also tilted his head indicating that he actually died, then the dragons burned it all. --Mordecay (talk) 17:44, 15 June 2016 (UTC)


I guess I'll come bother you on your talk page ! This, is it implemented in-game ? Because I went to do Icecrown specifically because of it and Bolvar had no Undead tag, he didn't have any tag. Then I watched Death Knights artifact acquisition questlines and, again, no tag. MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 21:41, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

The model in the ice is not interactable, which doesn't yield a tooltip. There is also an animated model in the dialogue popup. So there is some model of LK Bolvar used in the game. The two complete models (with the helm) in the databases are categorized as undead. There is one model uncategorized, but it doesn't have the helm. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 05:34, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Wowhead shows that 7.2 added an undead model and an uncategorized model of LK Bolvar. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 17:10, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
The Speculation section has this :
The sentence "Bolvar was reanimated by the flames of the Red Dragonflight", alone, would imply that Bolvar died and was brought back to life, implying he's undead. However in the Ultimate Visual Guide it is stated that, in fact, Bolvar was "kept at the edge of life", meaning he did not die. This is supported by another sentence a bit further : "Thought to have been killed by the plague at the battle of the Wrathgate, Bolvar was saved but charred beyond recognition."
I did find the first part, "The flames of the red dragonflight had reanimated Bolvar after Angrathar, though he was horrifically charred beyond recognition" page 55, which is ambiguous by itself (reanimated) but not the rest yet so I'm not sure where that comes from. Any idea? -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 17:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
How does magic life-fire work?--SWM2448 18:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps will be established in WoW Chronicle Vol. 3...? Just a thought. -- Darksora110 (talk) 1:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I can't remember any other occurence of such a thing. This reminded me of Bridenbrad :
You must understand, young <race>, that cleansing the body in favor of life anew is something well within my grasp... removing the plague of undeath without affecting the body, however, is beyond the scope of the powers that I control.
If this Bridenbrad is the beacon of light that you profess him to be, perhaps he will endure such a cleansing and thrive, but I cannot state with confidence that this is the salvation that you seek. Take it and go with all of my blessings.
- It was nearly as painful as it looked, but it was as if I could feel some of the corruption being burnt away from within my body. It seems the plague is not so readily bested though.
-- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 18:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Does it really matter, in the end? Xporc (talk) 18:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Arthas slowly transformed into undead without actually dying. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 18:30, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

He literally carved out his heart, if that doesn't count as dying I don't know what does. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 18:34, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
If he did it so casually, he might have "died" before that.--SWM2448 18:41, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

"When he donned the Helm of Domination, Arthas felt the Lich King's power pierce his heart, stop his breath, and freeze his veins." which means Arthas died and explaining how he could just rip out his heart (though I'm not sure about the timeline of these two events). I think it's fair to assume the same thing happened with Bolvar. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 18:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Arthas turned undead before he put on the Helm of Domination. "He stood straddling the worlds; he was alive after a fashion, but the Lich King’s soft whispers were calling him death knight, and the leeching of color from his hair and skin and eyes seemed to indicate that it was more than a title." (Rise of the Lich King). --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 18:54, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't think that's a definite proof. Anyway, the quote above could apply to Bolvar too, don't you think? -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 19:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
The exact passage isn't about the Helm itself, it's about the LK's essence entering Arthas' body. "He was suddenly galvanized, his body tensing as he felt the essence of the Lich King enter him. It pierced his heart, stopped his breath, shivered along his veins, icy, powerful, crashing through him like a tidal wave." --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 19:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I know it's not canon anymore, but Dark Factions had this to say about the death knights: "Alabaster Skin (Ex): At 3rd, 6th, and 9th level, the death knight’s skin hardens and grows pale, resembling marble or alabaster. (His hair also develops streaks of white, and some death knights’ hair goes completely white as they progress in power.) He gains a +1 bonus to his natural Armor Class." Xporc (talk) 19:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't see how that's contradictory since the LK's essence is bound to the Helm/Armor/Throne. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 19:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Ner'zhul's and Arthas' essences are gone when Bolvar puts on the Helm. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 19:27, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
We don't know that. Actually, Afrasiabi said a part of Arthas was still there. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 20:03, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Ner'zhul's essence was destroyed by Arthas. Arthas' essence went to the void Sylvanas saw when she died. We see echoes of them still lingering around. Part of Arthas still inhabiting the LK isn't really his essence and it's not the same as Ner'zhul's essence that RotLK described as heart-piercing and breath-stopping. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 20:19, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
It was not destroyed. Also this is mostly semantics, we honestly can't act like essences/souls/memories/spirits/or fragments of oneself are entirely, completely different things given how often they are used interchangeably. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 22:01, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
"that had once been Ner’zhul, then the Lich King, and was soon to be nothing, nothing at all" (RotLK). "Ner'zhul is no more. He is consumed. There is only Arthas now" (Legends: Fate). "Ner'zhul is done" (Metzen, BlizzCon 2010). "Is ner'zhul completely gone gone? Far as I'm concerned" (Metzen, Twitter 2012). --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 22:12, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Yet the Lich King remembers being a shaman once so clearly not all was gone. Honestly these are very abstract matters I don't think any of us could affirm that what they're saying is the definite truth so better stop there lol. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 22:43, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
If we go by what we have directly on Bolvar and his status of life/unlife. We have the phrase that he was reanimated. While the word is often used as meaning raising the dead, and especially in fantasy settings, it can also have other uses. One can say that a freezing person, warming up by a fire is "reanimated". It simply means, to my understanding, to bring "new life" to someone or something. In this sense it could just mean that at the brink of death he was healed by the flames. Does the undead Bolvar appear anywhere in game? Having a mention of this (or other) undead bolvar models in the files might be worth a mention in the speculation section, but if we have nothing "concrete" it should probably not be introduced to the main article. PeterWind (talk) 07:02, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Yup, most people tend to immediately associate "reanimate" with "raising back into undeath" but it doesn't have to be the case. Anyone knows where the 2 other sentences from the Speculation section that say that he didn't die come from? -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 10:56, 25 April 2017 (UTC)