Talk:Demonology (lore)

Astrology or a form of it?

Demons are technically astral entities with astral bodies since they're from the astral Nether and have been described as celestial in the past, which is why demonology seems to be astrology or some form of it. While astrology has been defined as a study of celestial objects to try to divine/obtain information about human affairs and terrestrial events, demonology quite literally can be considered to be the study of astral entities to try to divine/obtain information about things.--VisionOfPerfection (talk) 22:03, 21 January 2017 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

I'd say astrology is astromancy Xporc (talk) 22:37, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

I'd say so too. I'm just believing that demonology is technically astrology or some form of it because demons are from an astral dimension and warlocks can - and do - divine/obtain information from them.--VisionOfPerfection (talk) 23:12, 21 January 2017 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

"Astro" means "heavenly body", astrology is the science of celestial bodies technically. It's the same thing in Warcraft as per Astromancy. Not demons or individuals. Though titans are planets so I guess they would count I guess. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 02:09, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Demons were described as celestial and heavenly by Richard A Knaak's novels - presumably because they're from an astral dimension and were ultimately formed because of divine forces bleeding together. I still don't know why you're disregarding this information. Perhaps demonology isn't astrology or a form of it even though warlocks summon demons from demon planets, but I'm just looking for actual, concrete evidence that suggests and ultimately proves it isn't.--VisionOfPerfection (talk) 07:09, 22 January 2017 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

Demons were described as celestial and heavenly by Azshara, who thought Sargeras was a god and they were his divine messengers sent to purge her society of the unworthy. She's not exactly a reliable source where these things are concerned. I also genuinely don't know where you're getting the idea that they are "astral entities with astral bodies," or frankly what that even really means. -- DarkTZeratul (talk)

Knaak's novels also had bearded dwarf women and paladins worshipping God tho. Not sure it's worth interpreting literally everything written in there Xporc (talk) 09:58, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure demons were described as celestial and heavenly by Azshara. For certain though, the TWoTA novels describe them as such, but if what you're stating is true, Azshara was essentially a demon-worshipping demonologist who harvested the lifeblood of a nascent world/titan and used it to summon demons. An arcanist who uses the lifeblood of a nascent world to summon demons or demonic apparitions honestly doesn't seem to be any different from a demonologist who drains the soul of the land to summon demons, at least to me anyways. Anyways, given that demons - at least according to the Chronicle - were formed as a result of Light and Void energies bleeding together, it stands to reason that demons are conduits for Light and Void energies or some measure of those divine forces. I may be adamant about demons technically being corrupted, divine, heavenly beings because demonology can be defined as a branch of theology, but still...demonology seems to be astrology or some form of astrology because demons are from demons worlds. Warlocks in the Great Dark Beyond would need to actually study those astral, demon worlds in order to open portals to them no?

Ummm...I'm getting that they're astral entities with astral bodies because demons, at least the warlocks summon, are entities from the astral dimension known as the Twisting Nether and entities from the astral realm are astral? This is fact and, quite honestly, common sense. And although the Great Dark Beyond can technically be defined as an astral realm too because it's connected with, or relating to, the "stars", it's not astral in the same sense that the Twisting Nether is astral because if the Twisting Nether is an infinite living realm composed of innumerable stars, worlds, and mortal civilizations, it's absolutely no different from the Great Dark Beyond. It would be - or is - an astral dimension as in a nonphysical realm of existence and claiming that the physical can exist inside the nonphysical is akin to claiming that a rock can exist inside a ghost (it's silly right?). If anything, a demon such as this fella is a nonphysical being (or spirit) tethered to the Nether if it's from a place that exists outside - or transcends - physical reality and warlocks - channelers of forbidden powers - would be able to channel its energies. After all, channelers can be defined as people who convey thoughts or energy from a source believed to be outside the person's body or conscious mind; specifically: those who speaks for nonphysical beings or spirits. Warlocks are quite literally spiritual guides (shamans), but for brimstone (an element), fire (another element), and demons - nothing more, nothing less.--VisionOfPerfection (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

Though the Twisting Nether is indeed an astral dimension on a cosmic scale, it can be very much physical on a smaller scale (i.e locally). For example, Mardum is situated in the Twisting Nether, yet it is an actual very physical planet (well, more like floating rocks drifting away) with very physical buildings (the Fel Hammer for example) and very physical people [both demons (Shivarra, Fel Hounds) and mortals (Akama, the Broken, the Naga)] walking on it. Same for Niskara, and (some parts of) Outland. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 23:36, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Ummm, thanks for acknowledging that the Twisting Nether is an astral dimension, but I don't think that the Nether can be physical. "Can" implies that it's not physical to begin with. Besides, if the Nether is physical, it's basically no different from the Great Dark Beyond. At this point, all I'm seeing from people are excuses instead of a sound reasoning to support the claim that demons are not spirits or nonphysical beings when regarding to World of Warcraft lore. If demons aren't spirits, a reason that can be given is that demons such as the Man'ari Eredar exist in Argus (a world in-between the physical universe AND the astral dimension). This is pure common sense and fact, so I don't understand why people don't seem to understand this: Astral things come from an astral dimension. If demons have bodies and are from the astral Twisting Nether, their bodies would be - or are - astral bodies by definition and there are no exceptions to this rule because there is a rule that states, "Hey. Astral bodies are from the astral Nether". Indeed, demons would not be - or are not - physical beings and those who maintain that they are physical beings despite being from the astral dimension don't make any sense to me, which - let's be fair here - isn't my fault. Anyways, I'm still thinking that demonologists are astrologists of some kind since they would need to study the demon worlds where their demons inhabit. Meh--VisionOfPerfection (talk) 00:16, 23 January 2017 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection