Talk:Demonology (lore)

Astrology or a form of it?

Demons are technically astral entities with astral bodies since they're from the astral Nether and have been described as celestial in the past, which is why demonology seems to be astrology or some form of it. While astrology has been defined as a study of celestial objects to try to divine/obtain information about human affairs and terrestrial events, demonology quite literally can be considered to be the study of astral entities to try to divine/obtain information about things.--VisionOfPerfection (talk) 22:03, 21 January 2017 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

I'd say astrology is astromancy Xporc (talk) 22:37, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

I'd say so too. I'm just believing that demonology is technically astrology or some form of it because demons are from an astral dimension and warlocks can - and do - divine/obtain information from them.--VisionOfPerfection (talk) 23:12, 21 January 2017 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

"Astro" means "heavenly body", astrology is the science of celestial bodies technically. It's the same thing in Warcraft as per Astromancy. Not demons or individuals. Though titans are planets so I guess they would count I guess. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 02:09, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Demons were described as celestial and heavenly by Richard A Knaak's novels - presumably because they're from an astral dimension and were ultimately formed because of divine forces bleeding together. I still don't know why you're disregarding this information. Perhaps demonology isn't astrology or a form of it even though warlocks summon demons from demon planets, but I'm just looking for actual, concrete evidence that suggests and ultimately proves it isn't.--VisionOfPerfection (talk) 07:09, 22 January 2017 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

Demons were described as celestial and heavenly by Azshara, who thought Sargeras was a god and they were his divine messengers sent to purge her society of the unworthy. She's not exactly a reliable source where these things are concerned. I also genuinely don't know where you're getting the idea that they are "astral entities with astral bodies," or frankly what that even really means. -- DarkTZeratul (talk)

Knaak's novels also had bearded dwarf women and paladins worshipping God tho. Not sure it's worth interpreting literally everything written in there Xporc (talk) 09:58, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure demons were described as celestial and heavenly by Azshara. For certain though, the TWoTA novels describe them as such, but if what you're stating is true, Azshara was essentially a demon-worshipping demonologist who harvested the lifeblood of a nascent world/titan and used it to summon demons. An arcanist who uses the lifeblood of a nascent world to summon demons or demonic apparitions honestly doesn't seem to be any different from a demonologist who drains the soul of the land to summon demons, at least to me anyways. Anyways, given that demons - at least according to the Chronicle - were formed as a result of Light and Void energies bleeding together, it stands to reason that demons are conduits for Light and Void energies or some measure of those divine forces. I may be adamant about demons technically being corrupted, divine, heavenly beings because demonology can be defined as a branch of theology, but still...demonology seems to be astrology or some form of astrology because demons are from demons worlds. Warlocks in the Great Dark Beyond would need to actually study those astral, demon worlds in order to open portals to them no?

Ummm...I'm getting that they're astral entities with astral bodies because demons, at least the ones the warlocks summon, are entities from the astral dimension known as the Twisting Nether and entities from the astral realm are astral? This is fact and, quite honestly, common sense. And although the Great Dark Beyond can technically be defined as an astral realm too because it's connected with, or relating to, the "stars", it's not astral in the same sense that the Twisting Nether is astral because if the Twisting Nether is an infinite living realm composed of innumerable stars, worlds, and mortal civilizations, it's absolutely no different from the Great Dark Beyond. It would be - or is - an astral dimension as in a nonphysical realm of existence and claiming that the physical can exist inside the nonphysical is akin to claiming that a rock can exist inside a ghost (it's silly right?). If anything, a demon such as this fella is a nonphysical being (or spirit) tethered to the Nether if it's from a place that exists outside - or transcends - physical reality and warlocks - channelers of forbidden powers - would be able to channel its energies. After all, channelers can be defined as people who convey thoughts or energy from a source believed to be outside the person's body or conscious mind; specifically: those who speaks for nonphysical beings or spirits. Warlocks are quite literally spiritual guides (shamans), but for brimstone (an element), fire (another element), and demons - nothing more, nothing less.--VisionOfPerfection (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

Though the Twisting Nether is indeed an astral dimension on a cosmic scale, it can be very much physical on a smaller scale (i.e locally). For example, Mardum is situated in the Twisting Nether, yet it is an actual very physical planet (well, more like floating rocks drifting away) with very physical buildings (the Fel Hammer for example) and very physical people [both demons (Shivarra, Fel Hounds) and mortals (Akama, the Broken, the Naga)] walking on it. Same for Niskara, and (some parts of) Outland. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 23:36, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Ummm, thanks for acknowledging that the Twisting Nether is an astral dimension, but I don't think that the Nether can be physical. "Can" implies that it's not physical to begin with. Besides, if the Nether is physical, it's basically no different from the Great Dark Beyond. At this point, all I'm seeing from people are excuses instead of a sound reasoning to support the claim that demons are not spirits or nonphysical beings when regarding to World of Warcraft lore. If demons aren't spirits, a reason that can be given is that demons such as the Man'ari Eredar exist in Argus (a world in-between the physical universe AND the astral dimension). This is pure common sense and fact, so I don't understand why people don't seem to understand this: Astral things come from an astral dimension. If demons have bodies and are from the astral Twisting Nether, their bodies would be - or are - astral bodies by definition and there are no exceptions to this rule because there is a rule that states, "Hey. Astral bodies are from the astral Nether". Indeed, demons would not be - or are not - physical beings and those who maintain that they are physical beings despite being from the astral dimension don't make any sense to me, which - let's be fair here - isn't my fault. Anyways, I'm still thinking that demonologists are astrologists of some kind since they would need to study the demon worlds where their demons inhabit. Meh--VisionOfPerfection (talk) 00:16, 23 January 2017 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

You're the one making the outrageous claims. You're the one who needs to provide proof. You don't get to make wild leaps of logic and enormous, convoluted extrapolations that focus on minutiae over broad details to handwave away all contradictory evidence and rely on dictionary definitions that are pretty clearly unrelated (that definition of "channeler" is about spiritual mediums and real-world "psychics" and has no basis in Warcraft lore). Saying "this is what I say, you have to prove me wrong or else that means I'm right" is not how discussion works. Nor is calling immense logical fallacies with regards to causality "pure common sense and fact." The reason people don't understand this is that these "connections" you're making exist only in your head and have no reasonable basis in canon, no matter how much you scream and cry and insist otherwise. -- DarkTZeratul (talk) 00:32, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

"I don't think that the Nether can be physical" Well, that's the problem I believe, no one really cares about what any individual "thinks". We know two things about the Nether : 1) it's called an astral dimension 2) it's still partly physical. Maybe you personally have a hard time wrapping your head around this ("why would it be called astral if there were physical parts?" well, for the same reason the Great Dark is called the physical universe, yet it has astral parts, I'd say), and I personally find it totally normal, I got you, but it still doesn't allow you to twist reality to fit your ideas. Sometimes when things don't seem logical to you, and I've went there too, I know it's tempting to change them internally but don't, just accept them, think "it's silly but it's still the truth".

"I'm still thinking that demonologists are astrologists of some kind since they would need to study the demon worlds where their demons inhabit." Well in that case you'd say that the former leads to the latter : they'd be both demonologist and astrologist, but these are still different things. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 01:19, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

@Dark, it's ironic that you state that because my claims are actually supported by Blizzard's very own information and it's actually you who are making outrageous claims, claiming that demons aren't astral entities DESPITE being from the astral Nether. It is canon fact that demons are from the astral dimension known as the Twisting Nether and if you don't understand the implication (as well as the ultimate meaning) of being an entity from an astral dimension, that's your problem - not mine. Don't just accuse me of making outrageous claims just because you don't like what I'm telling you is fact. I provided a link to a definition of a term that is used by CANON LORE and is applied to a dimension that exists in WoW lore. I provided a link to a definition of a term that is used by CANON LORE and is applied to warlocks. You've got this entirely backwards because it's actually YOU who needs to provide proof that demons aren't astral entities DESPITE being from the astral Nether. It's actually you who needs to provide proof that warlocks don't invoke the energies of spirits DESPITE the fact that current canon establishes that they're channelers and that WCII establishes that they can invoke the energies of spirits. Perhaps the reason why you are misunderstanding me or don't understand what I'm stating is because you're ignoring the definitions of the terms used by canon lore and acting as if they don't apply to WoW. These connections don't only exist in my head and they do have reasonable basis in canon, no matter how much YOU scream and cry and insist otherwise. The Twisting Nether is an astral dimension and things described as astral are relating to a supposed nonphysical realm of existence to which various psychic and paranormal phenomena are ascribed, and in which the physical human body is said to have a counterpart. Warlocks are defined as channelers by canon and channelers can be defined as people who convey thoughts or energy from a source believed to be outside the person's body or conscious mind; specifically: those who speaks for nonphysical beings or spirits. These are the facts and the definitions of the terms applied to warlocks, the warlocks' demons, and the place the warlocks' demons are from. If the definitions of these terms don't have any meaning to you, that's too bad because they have meaning to people who 1) actually care about the lore and 2) don't disregard the meaning of things. If warlocks aren't channelers as in "those who convey thoughts or energy from a source believed to be outside the person's body or conscious mind", please enlighten me, in what sense are warlocks "channelers"? If they're not really channelers, Blizzard is wrong because the company established that they are, yet you would deny that the company is wrong then accuse me of disregarding lore even when I'm not.--VisionOfPerfection (talk) 01:25, 23 January 2017 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

@MyMindWontQuiet (Shell?), this is the kind of response I was looking for and the inverse of the Nether having physical parts example makes sense in that astral parts existing in the Great Dark Beyond doesn't really make sense and should just be accepted for what it is. I get you and I appreciate you understanding where I'm coming from.

word.--VisionOfPerfection (talk) 01:32, 23 January 2017 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

Because you do not understand the definitions of "astral" and "channeler" that you keep bandying about. These are the definitions as they relate to things in the real world like fortune tellers, psychics, mediums, astral projection, spirit guides, etc. They are not only completely irrelevant to Warcraft, but they aren't even the sole definitions of the words. Astral also has the more broad (and seemingly more relevant) definition of "pertaining to or proceeding from the stars; stellar; star-shaped." As for channeler, well, it should be pretty obvious that the more accurate definition would simply be someone who channels ("to direct toward or into some particular course") something--in this case, energy of some sort (be it fel or otherwise). You're trying to introduce clearly unrelated definitions and making wild extrapolations (like your outrageous claim that if the Twisting Nether is an astral plane, then every part of it and denizen of it must be astral and cannot be physical, which is patently absurd) and trying to claim that this is canon lore, despite the fact that you are LITERALLY the only person arguing this. Give it up, please. As I understand it, you have an entire wiki all of your own dedicated to your personal theories and claims and extrapolations and understandings of how magic works in Warcraft according to your own theories and research, and this is the sort of thing that belongs there. Not on Wowpedia. -- DarkTZeratul (talk) 03:33, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

You're still getting it twisted because it's actually YOU who doesn't understand the definitions of the terms "astral" and "channeler". I know the definitions of those terms and I've actually provided links to websites displaying their definitions so that YOU understand them because you seem to be having a difficult time understanding what the Twisting Nether, as an astral dimension, is. I already know that the term astral has more than one definition and that it can be applied to things "of, from, or relating to, the stars." As pointed out already though, the Great Dark Beyond can technically be defined as astral because it relates to the stars and that the Twisting Nether is not astral in the same sense that the Great Dark is astral. I'm not doing what you're accusing me of doing, so you should just stop with your false accusations and lies here. You're not going to fool anyone who is carefully reading this. You're the one who is actually trying to introduce clearly unrelated definitions and apply them to things and making wild extrapolations (like your outrageous claim that denizens from an astral plane aren't astral, which is patently absurd) and trying to claim that this is canon lore, despite the fact that you are literally the only person arguing this. Your attempt to make me seem like the one making outrageous claims is pathetic and it's not going to change my position so you should just give up. It is YOU who are presenting outrageous claims because they are completely unsubstantiated and NOT ONCE have you presented a canon source suggesting or outright stating that demons aren't astral. What you're doing is practicing HYPOCRISY. You refuse to present canon sources that confirm your harebrained theory that demons aren't astral entities despite being from an astral realm, yet you're asking me to present proof stating they are astral entities? Unlike your conclusions, my conclusion is based on common sense AND what Blizzard has established, which is that demons are entities from an astral dimension. What I'm stating, which is that astral entities come from an astral place, is reasonable and understandable. What you're stating, which is that demons aren't astral entities despite coming from an astral place, is not. You're rife with excuses and inferring that demons aren't astral entities based on YOUR belief that they aren't and nothing else. Your argument is baseless, pathetic, unsupported by common sense, and has no canon source proving its right. Even if you somehow manage to get a Blizzard employee to state the ridiculous and thus validate your silly claim, your argument will still be pathetic because only people with excuses would claim demons aren't astral entities despite being from an astral realm.. And by the way, you're understanding of the purpose of my own wiki is jacked up because my wiki isn't dedicated to personal theories. I don't have personal theories and at this point, you should know by now that it's dedicated to mocking people who are unreliable (people who contradict/retcon their own lore) and people who present excuses. So, my wowpedian who loves to present me with excuses, please offer me an excuse that justifies why you're claiming that asinine and I will make sure to that my website takes note of it.--VisionOfPerfection (talk) 05:24, 23 January 2017 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection