Talk: Horde/Evil

Evil

Since I refuse to be party to an edit war: I fully accept that the Horde's new atmosphere is ridiculous, and that it is definetly more evil than it should be. However, the "organization" section is not the place for such a discussion. The fact also remains that the section in question is directly flaming Blizzard, and such comments violate NPOV.--Ragestorm 23:26, 8 December 2006 (EST)

I agree 100%. This should be removed. --Mikaka 23:36, 8 December 2006 (EST)

Sigh edit wars... Yes I agree it either needs to be removed, or strongly edited to get it back to a NPOV position...Baggins 00:10, 9 December 2006 (EST)

Until I see some citiatons on the some of the claims (especially about community attitude), this needs to be gone. The argument is plausible but very, very flimsy, and certainly not presented very well with the current verbage. User:Montag/sig 01:41, 9 December 2006 (EST)

Maybe we should kindly ask Drek'Thar to support his claims in the talk page, and discuss his beliefs here...?Baggins 01:44, 9 December 2006 (EST)

Drek'thar has posted extensively in the Analysis section of this talk page, which is where opinions like this should be posted.

Since there seems to be no arguement for keeping it, I'm just going to go ahead and delete it. If Drek'thar takes issue, he's welcome to come to this page and give some evidence for his arguement. --Mikaka 02:08, 9 December 2006 (EST)

Can someone let him know on his user:talk, where he should go to discuss it?Baggins 02:13, 9 December 2006 (EST)

Ok I'm here. Anyone there should at least be some page about this change. The horde lore has gotten so bad,I can't even Role play on horde. Blizzard is definetly trying to paint the horde as evil now,even their own descriptions of the blood elves call them evil! I wouldn't even be surprised if they went on and said Thrall was a baby eater,with the way Horde lore is going now. And the defiling Uther's grave, thing was the final nail in the coffin. I roleplayed in the horde,because I liked their shamanistic culture,not because I wanted to play the badguy. But it seems Metzen lost his ability to tell a good story,and decided it was easier to demonize the horde,rather then have them be a organization of misunderstood shamanistic races. Honestly I would rather have the orcs never reform in WC3 and Lord of the Clans,if Blizzard was just going to make the evil again for no apparent reason,other then it was easier for them to write. Drek'thar

I agree, the lore shows a false picture of how Horde really is. I don't get why Blizzard are doing this.--Odolwa 12:35, 10 December 2006 (EST)

There doing it because,their lazy and its easier for them to have two dimensional characters. Drek'thar

The fact remains, however, that you cannot start flaming Blizzard in articles, which was the whole reason for this conversation in the first place. For what it's worth, I agree with you (to be fair to Metzen, I've seen what happens when Marketing sinks its claws in). From what I've seen, the Tauren, and most of the orcs, remain relatively unblemished, even if the Blood elves, Forsaken, and even Trolls are descending. Insulting the lore department won't do you any good- your views have little place in the article and no place in the organization section.--Ragestorm 10:33, 10 December 2006 (EST)

Ok I'll admit that was vandalism and had no place here. But I am still disgusted by how Blizzard is making the horde evil. I don't even wanna see their movie now. Knowing how they write horde now,they'll probably just have the horde as two bit badguys for the Alliance to kill. Drek'thar

I wouldn't bet on that becoming their permanent stance. Remember, though there are more than 7 million subscribers, only a fraction of those are reading and playing outside materials. That fraction is likely to share (or at least sympathize) with your view. Blizzard is unlikely to extend this vision of the Horde to novels or future games, and it will probably be confined to WoW. --Ragestorm 15:55, 10 December 2006 (EST)

Where is it said the trolls, Blood elves, and Forsaken are undeniably evil? The trolls have always been a people who let their hate guide their actions, the Forsaken tend to have a certain degree of compassion, although this is mainly for other forsaken, the Blood Elves are apperantly going to fight their beloved prince who freely uses demonic magic, seems to me the whole concept of Horde being evil is a mistake by some people, I certainly see nothing that directly calls them evil. Hordesupporter 23:22, 29 January 2007 (EST)

Let's not go opening those wounds again. Fact is, people would rather whine and vandalize articles than believe that Blizzard will do it right.

Have you ever seen an advert for a TV show that makes you think the movie or episode is about something, but then you watch it, and it's about something totally different? That's what's happening here: publicity materials, designed to attract new players who don't think of lore as a major factor, are not reflecting that actualy situation. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 00:07, 30 January 2007 (EST)

Only misguided morons think trolls are evil but Blood elves and forsaken are definetly pure evil. Angry ogre 02:34, 11 February 2007 (EST)

Blood Elves and Forsaken are not evil, Kael became a member of the burning legion, and this has become far too much for most blood elves to stomach, which points to them being more benevolent then your implying, furthermore the blood elves tried to continue helping the alliance after the fall of Silvermoon but were regected simply because they needed demonic magic to feed their addiction, the alliance betrayed the blood elves not the otherway around, the Forsaken can show a bit more compassion around other sentinent undead, a undead girl in silverpine forest asks you to kill a ghoul simply so her brother will be save from him, also note that Sylvanas seems to still hold concern and compassion for the blood elves, so it's likly that the whole "new plauge" thing was stopped by Sylvanas. Hordesupporter 03:23, 11 February 2007 (EST)

Arbitrary break 1

Let's try "Horde is evil" again. :) I have to agree with people who say that Horde is continuosly portraited evil in WoW. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't remember any Alliance-side quests that target Horde-aligned mobs, except Forsaken and almost all of them are to disrupt some Forsaken's sinister operation. Horde, on the other side, have plenty of "kill Alliance" quests: blood elves kill dwarf in newbie line, Forsaken hunt human civilians constantly in their first three areas (what always annoyed me that I can't lift a finger against some stupid bones massacring good people of Alliance in Silverpine, because even on PVP servers it is "their" territory) and later attack high elves (Sylvanas seems to be short on memory nowadays). Visitors to Barrens are directed to slay human marines, etc. Along the same lines, Blood Knights have highly questionable objective for their epic mount    [60D] True Masters of the Light. Let's try to look for good side and check supposedly noblest race, the Orcs, and most pure (on Azeroth, anyways) of them: Frostwolves, Thrall's own clan. Just enter Alterac BG and see what they collect for their boss summoning. For those low enogh to never see it, they collect Alliance's soldiers blood. Galons of it. If most noble of Orcs perform blood rituals to summon beast that consume essence of slain mortals (check primalist's and Ice Lord's quotes for extra fun, compare with Alliance), then how low are other Orcs? I admit, I didn't played Horde much, but so far only Taurens and Trolls (who care more about Voodoo than some evilness) seems good enough. Rowaasr13 08:30, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Let me point out that every single time there's a horde quest involving attacking alliance aligned npc's those npcs have done something bad to the horde, for instance, you used the example of the ones in the Barrens, let me remind you that those same dwarves killed a bunch of tauren just to use the location of their campsite as a dig, also note that many quests Forsaken npc's give that involve attacking alliance npc's, they order you to attack them because they disrupted Forsakena activites in some way or another (mostly in the way of killing Forsaken qho were just doing their jobs). Hordesupporter 13:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Hm, what did against horde civilians involved in entire  [24] Battle of Hillsbrad chain? Rowaasr13 17:21, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

"let me remind you that those same dwarves killed a bunch of tauren just to use the location of their campsite as a dig"

Actually there is more to it if you hear more about both sides views of what happented. First off the tauren campsite was actually near the digsite, but not actually the site of the dig. Most of the problem started over a miss-understanding. Both sides got off on the wrong note. According to extended lore, basically the dwarves built in the area first, tauren came in upset that they desecreated their lands, but came in threatening the dwarves (although there were some that wanted problem fixed through diplomatic means). Dwarves defended themselves from the violent tauren, then took the fight to the nearby tauren village. Other tauren saw the interpreted that as dwarves being violent towards tauren, and wanted revenge.

"(mostly in the way of killing Forsaken qho were just doing their jobs)."

Which happens to include plans to create a new plague of undead, so that forsaken can wipe out all life, the scourge, and leave themselves in power. The average Forsaken may or might not know this, but it is part of Forsaken's plan. Its actually a reason why Leonid Barthalomew the Revered left the Forsaken, and joined the Argent Dawn (call him a traitor or not, he had a good reason to leave). He just couldn't stand what the Forsaken stood for, their beliefs or their ultimate plans. On side note alliance is well aware of forsaken's royal apothecary capturing alliance forces and using them for experiments (partly through reports from the likes of Leonid Barthalomew and others like him). So they are within their rights to defend themselves from the Forsaken. Again there are two sides to the story, its not some totally black and white issue. As a related note no one likes the Scarlet Crusade really, although relations with horde, alliance and scarlet crusade have improved through Argent Dawn.

Its also sad that majority of the horde doesn't seem know what the Forsaken is up to, the plans include turning on orcs, trolls, tauren, etc, once their plans come to fruition. Though there are horde members including orcs who are quite wary, and no something about the forsaken is up to, is not right.

As for Sylvanas, its been said do to multiple failures at trying to make her own plague, she's turning to other means to gain power, and increase her forces, some through the teachings of the Forgotten Shadow, and some by necromancy. However, let's hope with her new contact with blood elves that her heart is opened to who she once was, and that she changes into a force for good rather than a force for evil. However that might be difficult as long as Varimathas stands near her. Some believe he might be the one truly calling the shots, and is using her as his pawn, without her even knowing it. That is he only acts as an advisor when he is subtly influencing Sylvanas decisions.Baggins 17:33, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Ok... the "battle of hillsbrad" questline, the humans and forsaken in hillsbrad have been fighting each other for quite some time, the wanted poster in Tarren Mill proves that the humans have killed a handul of forsaken, your thought that Leonid is telling the Alliance about the plauge... give me a scource, the only things i've ever heard from his mouth was that he believed that undeath was a "malady, an illness that mearly requires treatment", the thing about the plauge the forsaken are creating, thats impossible, as stated in the warcraft Encylopedia on the offical website, Sylvanas has constantly attempted to aid and help the blood elves, she would NEVER allow a plauge that would kill them to be developed, as for your belief that Sylvanas is using Varimathas, impossible, one of his quotes from warcraft 3 was something along the lines of "Sylvanas has more power then you know brother, i'll take my chances with her", meaning he has decided to throw his lot in with her. Hordesupporter 13:24, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

"your thought that Leonid is telling the Alliance about the plauge...give me a scource, the only things i've ever heard from his mouth was that he believed that undeath was a "malady, an illness that mearly requires treatment","

Horde Player's guide, 2006. Yes some forsaken believe plague its cureable. However, some know of Banshee Queen's plans and have decided to leave and side with other agencies they know stand for better ideas.

"the thing about the plauge the forsaken are creating, thats impossible, as stated in the warcraft Encylopedia on the offical website"

Sylvanas had tasked her royal apotechary society to work on the plague, and yes its been one failure after another. So yes its likely impossible, that's why she's attemping other ways. However, I believe she is starting to mellow and it may be due to influence of her newly created ties to the blood elves. They are making her remember her past, note "lament of the highborne"

"Sylvanas has constantly attempted to aid and help the blood elves, she would NEVER allow a plauge that would kill them to be developed"

Actually she's only recently gotten into contact with the blood elves, and worked towards the peace treaty to add them into the horde, and its likely the blood elves that are changing her outlook on life. Before that she had hatred of all life, mainly because there was alot of distrust to the forsaken even by her own blood elves. See Ghostlands to see that blood elves at first didn't trust her, and thought anveena, kalec, and company were her agents. Its constantly said in WoW that the attempted plagues were according to her design. Infact from the get go if you choose a class like Forsaken warlocks you are told about Sylvanas "secret plan".

"as for your belief that Sylvanas is using Varimathas, impossible, one of his quotes from warcraft 3 was something along the lines of "Sylvanas has more power then you know brother, i'll take my chances with her", meaning he has decided to throw his lot in with her"

The idea that she may be secretly influenced by varimathus is new addition to lore, see Horde Player's Guide. It was written after Warcraft 3. Things have changed since warcraft 3. Varithamathus and way of nethrizem is not direct conflict but subtle manipulations.

Look into articles about sylvanas, varimathis and leonid in coming weeks as I add the new lore and citations to article. I guarentee I don't make up material, and I don't ignore material that is stated specifically in game as well. I can't if I'm to look at things unbiased. Things are not black and white, there are good and bad on all sides, people who are evil can change towards good, those who are good can change towards bad. Time allows change.Baggins 13:59, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

The Horde Player's Guide isn't neccissarily canon material, also note that Varimithas would not desire to betray Sylvanas, note that in the quests he gives he notes his primary duty is protecting the Undercity, even from his former masters in the Burning Legion. Hordesupporter 14:52, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

"The Horde Player's Guide isn't neccissarily canon material"

First off, despite what you wish, according ot Blizzard the RPG is an official source of lore equal to the games, Manga, and novels, this is confirmed on the official site as well. Like all other sources, Chris Metzen is at their helm and part of its staff. So sorry that arguement is null and void.Baggins 15:13, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

"also note that Varimithas would not desire to betray Sylvanas, note that in the quests he gives he notes his primary duty is protecting the Undercity, even from his former masters in the Burning Legion."

Uh there is so many holes in idea, I'm going to have to rip them apart. If Varimathras really has plans to have a coup against Sylvanas and the Forsaken, he woudln't be telling a loyal citizen of the Horde, or of Sylvanas his dark plans. By loyal citizen I mean the player character. He's going to maintain a lie to those people in order to look like he's still loyal while he works on his plans to take over. What do you think the first thing a loyal citizen would do if they found out what his plans were? They would turn him in... If he currently still doesn't have enough power or enough forces of his own to overthrow Sylvanas it would be fruitless to show his hand too early.

History is riddled with would-be dictators making honey sweet claims and treaties while secretly plotting their way to power or conquering other nations in secret. They aren't stupid they aren't going to tell the world governments plans before they can pull them off. Infact in most cases the plans turn out to be surprise attacks. History is loaded with broken treaties that were written as lies to begin with, so that person who made the treaty can attack the person when they are aren't expecting it. It would be a really stupid person if they told their dark plans to everyone in the world before they had a chance to fulfill them.Baggins 15:13, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Still... the point is, the Horde Player's Guide is not neccissarily canon, so the fact it hints that his slaying of his brother was fake may not hold true, and he honestly believed he killed him, and Ballnazzer survives by some other means. Hordesupporter 16:53, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

The point stil stand Horde Player's Guide is still an official source of lore, with Metzen's own involvement, it is not "non-canon". However the fact he may have plans to have a coup, doesn't necessarily mean he'll ever have the chance to fulfill them. Yes, he honestly believed he killed him, but later learned his brother was still alive, and is possibly in contact with him. This brings up an additional question if after finding out how powerful his brother truly was, if he is afraid of crossing him again, and is trying to make amends.

"fact it hints that his slaying of his brother was fake may not hold true,"

Dude it has held true, Balnazzar is alive and well and in Stratholme, haven't you played that far into WoW? He's a boss there. That wasn't a fact established by the Horde Player's Guide it was established by World of Warcraft itself a few years back. The game establishes that Varimathras failed in killing Balnazzer.Baggins 16:59, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Have I played that far? I have a lv 58 undead war, but I can't seem to get a Strat group. Hordesupporter 17:56, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Oh, nice, when you get the chance, have fun, :). Its a fun fight, and one of the most interesting revelations in the game, :D.Baggins 19:51, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Anyway, this conversation is supposed to be about how the Horde got a questionable image in WoW, and what were trying to find out with this discussion is whether or not our view of it is correct. (and by "view" I mean thinking their evil, like all races, the Forsaken and Blood Elves are far more then what they seem at first glance. Hordesupporter 22:40, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Actually, this conversation is supposed to be explaining why users aren't allowed to say "many fans hate the new evil look" in the Organization section of the page. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:56, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Ragestorm, I'm not "many fans", of coruse :) but as one of them I can confirm that one of primary reasons I hardly ever play blood elf I created on first day of BC release is their newbie dwarf quest, while you kill supposed alliance spy who come as ambassador, instead of just kicking him out, which I feel would be far more appropriate for race striving to mantain any kind of noble outlook. It is plain "see how tough badasses we suddenly became" quest. And sudden change with Forsaken relations - they seem to still hate and harass high elves in Hinterlands, but at same time accept blood elves and I can't understand that. Why Sylvanas would sepparate one from another? Same for low Forsaken quests - undead warlock was one of my first characters, but she's far behind any other of my 4 alliance characters because I just stopped playing her when things came to "let's kick some Dalaran butt for fun". Rowaasr13 05:37, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

Oh... sry... I personally don't think the horde has turned evil, if you look hard enough. Hordesupporter 01:01, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

The horde hasn't turned evil, there are just possible evil individuals within the organization. But eh that's the explanation for most of the organizations too. Both sides have their problems, neither side is perfect. There is good and evil both.Baggins 02:04, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

Something I often seen brought up is the fact Orc warlocks are allowed in the Horde, not that regardless of how many orc warlock players there are there are very few orc warlocks in the Horde lore-wise, and are highly dis-trusted, go to an RP server and let a Orc of any class besides a warlock meet a Orc warlock and just watch the fireworks. Hordesupporter 13:55, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

Warlocks (both Alliance/Horde) are actually fine by me. Since NPCs treat them with respect (even if they're just using character's class in template of quest/gossip text :) I assume that player-controlled warlocks in WoW setting are defined as strong of will and not corrupt. For me, the most disturbing "phear our evilness" things are quests, like paladin's one I've mentioned before and  [58] Defiling Uther's Tomb. --Rowaasr13 05:25, 4 April 2007 (EDT)

The warlock trainers make a point in not being consumed by demonic power and instead bend it to their will without sacrificing their will, Blizzard seems to be saying there's a diffrence between the warlock mobs we fight, and the warlock characters we control. Hordesupporter 11:10, 4 April 2007 (EDT)

Yes, that's exactly what I meant --Rowaasr13 09:12, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

A point to make about every Horde race.

Orcs:They have come out of their bloodlust and are redeemed shamans, and are probably a nobler force of good then the humans.

Trolls:Although the Darkspear Tribe despise all elves, it seems that at times they can get along with them well, there isn't a single quest that shows trolls being racist about the blood elves, in fact there is a troll quest giver in Sunstrider Isle never mentions the hatred he should be feeling for blood elves, rather he just mentions that he hates the Amani trolls just as much as the Blood Elves hate the Amani.

Speaking of that, I don't remember Darkspear Tribe having any relations with elves, where that "despise all" comes from? --Rowaasr13 09:12, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

Tauren:The Tauren are the peaceful children of the EarthMother, why would they be evil?

Forsaken:The relationship between the Forsaken and the Alliance is a rather "point of view" type idea. The reason the Forsaken in Tarren Mill give quests to kill/steal from members of Dalaran is because from their point of view they'll put them to better use, they are not doing it for "fun" as another user put it, their doing because it seems just in their eyes.

Blood Elves:The Blood Elves are a bit tricker to defend, go to the blood elf article, go to the discussion area, and check out the discussion I started with the name "before stupidity sets in". Hordesupporter 11:38, 4 April 2007 (EDT)

Let's see how well our noble Horde fares in Outland. We'll start from Hellfire Peninsula. While not much, but Alliance still gets Quest: Enemy of my Enemy... which actually includes pretty noble goal of defending local capital of their Horde enemies - Thrallmar. So what good ol' Horde does at that time? Elves (note: not Kael's elves, elves that arrived from Azeroth) are at their favorite task: hunting and torturing draenei who attempt to contain corruption (which BTW, too can be counted as noble action of Alliance). Check Quest: The Cleansing Must Be Stopped and Quest: Source of the Corruption. They're good but angry you say? Plain mad in my opinion. Forsaken keep a low profile, but never forget their favorite "kill everyone who does not submit to us": Quest: Make Them Listen. More subtle yet interesting are differences between Quest: Helping the Cenarion Post (Horde) and Quest: Helping the Cenarion Post (Alliance). "Go or this pestering tauren never shuts up" for our noble Horde and "those guys ask for assistance, please check what can you do for them" for filthy Alliance. Something's amiss, don't you think? --Rowaasr13 04:54, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

When discussing stuff please do not interleave comments and continually go back to the left side. Try and write in paragraphs and let the discussions actually flow, like on a forum. Please. User:Kirkburn/Sig2 09:25, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

Why not interleave? "Answer after respective quote, not after entire text" is with us back from USENET times and there's nothing better invented since then yet. Large answers that addresses different points of previous large message tends to quickly become unreadable without such interleaving since you can't see what part of previous post each part of reply addresses. This also allows future answers to be added to one particular of those new "sub-threads", without touching other parts. --Rowaasr13 04:00, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

Then quote it and interleave that. You have made the conversation impossible to follow. Congratulations. Next time I will merely revert it. User:Kirkburn/Sig2 07:14, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

As for the points over the way their attacking them, keep in mind that most of the Alliance has no doubts about what they do to the Horde, as noted by the fact Highlord Bolvar ordered the death of blightcaller, an action that could only be described as murder. Hordesupporter 16:43, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

Sure. You're absolutely right. No other word than "murder" can be used regarding decision to eliminate undead who single-handedly wiped out several SI:7 operatives who sole mission in those lands were to investigate his presumed death and deal with what killed him to save any more people from harm. --Rowaasr13 09:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there a point to this conversation anymore? We've gone from me repremanding a user for POV comments (months ago) to random lore and gameplay discussions to Kirkburn admonishing shoddy posting habits! Archive this, as it's clear the issue is no longer as pressing, nor it is related to the content of Horde any longer. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:46, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

Might as well do something along the lines since Rowaasr seems to refuse to accept that the Horde is still good. Hordesupporter 18:27, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

Arbitrary break 2

I've listed some Outland quests for you. Please explain what "good" you see in them. I honestly start to think that even if there would be quest involving eating children, you'd still call Horde good on the grounds that it must be some shamanistic, and thus, noble ritual. --Rowaasr13 21:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Ha You call the Horde bad when the Alliance invaded Alterac valley,attempts to commit Genocide against the forsaken. Kul'tiras is still in Durotar for the purpose of killing the orcs and stealing the land and attempted to wipe out the darkspear trolls before Thrall saved them. Or heres some hypocrisy the Draenei could have easily prevented the burning legion coming to Draenor by warning the orcs instead they kept to themselves not saying a word to the orcs. And Now they want revenge agains the orcs even though it was their fault to begin with. You never see the Alliance going out of it's way to save the Horde but whose the Horde always helping the Alliance. Thrall sends player to rescue Moria Bronzebeard and to kill Onyxia and thats not counting Warcraft 3. Zarnks 18:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I think both sides are good (sure there IS evil in every faction).. but they just dont understand eachother. I read somewhere that to fight Burning Legion.. a Legion of Light must be created. Possibly Horde and Alliance will create it (or probably they join some other races dunno). So its obvious that Race which takes part in Faction like Legion of Light must be good no matter who they are. Many thinks Horde is evil becasue they are often killing alliance race mobs in quests, but these mobs are a serious threath to them.My point is that Horde races mainly Taurens, Orcs, Trolls are good and im not very sure if Forsaken and Blood elves are too. However, some quests clued us that Forsaken dont have to be so evil as we think, same with BE. I think Horde and Alliance are not evil, the only real danger is Burning Legion --Axell 19:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for the instance where the Alliance and Horde get to team up. Zarnks 19:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Horde Cannot Be Evil

Horde cannot be evil.

Orcs: Their society is more repenting their past sins than much else. They've gotten their shamanism back. At best they're recovering from Burning Legion and Alliance enslavement.

Trolls: Revantusk and Darkspear are intensely loyal to not-evil-at-all Thrall. Darkspear have a leader, too, named Vol'jin.

Tauren: Uh, how are they evil? They worship the Earthmother, who isn't an Old God. Only an idiot would suggest tauren being evil.

Forsaken: Easiest thing to counter. Their lives are being ruined by the Alliance and they're just getting their well-earned revenge. Varimathras is dominated by Sylvanas (Sunwell Trilogy for the counter: Sylvanas can let out a huge scream and then Varimathras is severely weakened).

Blood elves: They are not evil, they fight fire with fire. The Alliance is more heinous than them, as the Alliance are traitors (at least in the eyes of a blood elf).

Tuskarr: Tuskarr are new allies of the Horde. Of course they're not evil. They are attacked by the naga oh-so-frequently to boot.

Overall: NOT. EVIL. End of story. Garm 19:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Horde-biased much?Baggins 20:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

No. I just use my point-of-view. I honestly don't like it when people insidiously call out the Forsaken and Blood elves as "evil", which they cannot be. Otherwise they would not be playable. Garm 20:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I hate it when people/trolls (Not you in this case) do this. It ALWAYS comes down to this consensus that no one listens to: The Horde and Alliance are not evil, nor are they completely correct in their views. Both have great people and black sheep.--SWM2448 20:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

"I just use my point-of-view" is not really a valid counter to that. That you call people "insidious" for describing the Forsaken as "evil" hardly makes for good discussion (this quite apart from my dislike of the word "evil" anyway). Also, what does their playability have to do with anything? Kirkburn  talk  contr 20:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

"I honestly don't like it when people insidiously call out the Forsaken and Blood elves as "evil", which they cannot be. Otherwise they would not be playable."

Actually according to lore by blizzard most of the Forsaken are evil, but its more likely that those that are playable are the rare "few" that are good, or at least neutral. This isn't a fan thing but a Blizzard thing. You can find all the related quotes in Horde, and Forsaken. No need to repeat this for the umpteenth time. Unlike you, I don't use "my own pov", I only quote Blizzard. By using your "own point of view" which is proved to be "Horde-biased" in this discussion, you have allowed unofficial commentary to creep in. That kind of commentary would not be allowed outside of a talk page.Baggins 20:33, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Note this is an analysis page, so reasonably free discourse is allowed here. Anyway, I was going to say much the same about the Forsaken. Kirkburn  talk  contr 20:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Reminder: I am watching.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This has to be the stupidest most pathetic sets of arguments and word wars ever. Jesus. The Horde is not evil. They ARE NOT trying to demonize the Horde. The only people who are is you guys who just fight around with each other like children. The only "evil" race of the Horde is the Forsaken. There are plenty of dark quests on both sides. Please pay attention to details more often. In WoW, the Horde is desperately trying to be portrayed as not evil, and I'm surprised Metzen continues to work so hard on storylines when so many ungreatful brats are smashing him up and throwing words at each other. --Eman91 22:35, 2008-02-20

They are NOT evil

Ok, first of all, the Horde are NOT portrayed as evil in WoW. There are plenty of honorable quests on the Horde side, like the one about killing the demons of Felfire Hill, the one about cleansing the Charred Vale from the damages caused by the harpies and Venture Company, the one about ending the Burning Blade activities in Desolace, the one about taking out Rend Blackhand in Blackrock Spire, the one about killing Ramstein the Gorger in Stratholme, the one about ending the fel orcs control over Hellfire Pennensula, the Hero of the Mag'Har quest chain, the one about teaching the paranoid Theramore marines in Northwatch Hold a lession, the multiple quests about defending the Frostwolf Clan and their home from the Stormpikes, the one about taking down the Twilight's Hammer in Blackfathom Deeps, the several spiritual quests for shaman players in Durotar and Mulgore, the ones about taking down the Syndicate, the ones about bringing down the Scourge, and the many quests from civilians who simply want to make a way of living. The Horde, like the Alliace, is made up of diverse races, and value honor in battle.

Another thing, the Forsaken and Blood Elves ruining the Horde's lore, let's take down two things to disprove those theroies. First of all, the Forsaken are not actually part of the Horde, they are allied with it, and the alliance very shaking, distrustful, and for convience only on Sylvannas' part. Number two, the blood elves are NOT EVIL. They are merely victims of appalling circumstances and Garitho's bigotry, as well as being led by a deranged madman. Most blood elves didn't even know that Kael sided with the Legion, and most paied up full loyalty to the Scryers, Horde, or Shattered Sun Offensive when they did find out about this. The blood elves were more or less misguided and somewhat hateful, but they were never evil, except for Celeri Duskwhsisper in Stonard, but she clearly sticks out from the orcs there.

Culturaly, I will explain how the Horde is not evil anymore than the Alliance is.

Orcs: For a while, these guys were corrupt. But they redemed themselves, and now take spirtual guidelines, or simply join their valued line of warriors. They are as opposed to the demons as much as the humans. Thus, they are not evil. Most of the orcs that still worship demons have long since abondoned the Horde, and consider it to be as much of an enemy as the Alliance.

Darkspear Trolls: While they have questionable origins and dark traditions, the orcs and tauren have taught them restraint and shamanism. Thus, many have abondoned their old practices of voodoo, (although some still practice it) and know frown upon it. Obviously, not evil.

Tauren: These guys are peaceful shaman and children of the benevolent Earthmother, now this is definately not evil at all. They obviously have much in common with the orcs and, to a lesser extent, the Darkspear Trolls, in that they value honor and warriors, and continuiously struggle to reclaim their shamanistic traditions. Not evil.

Forsaken: These are, by far, the only Horde race (only playable race really) I can think of that are actually portrayed as evil, and even then, a few aren't. These guys are harder to defend, especially considering that they have the Royal Apothcary Society, and are exploiting the Horde in order to get the resources they need for their "New Plague" to unleash on Azeroth. However, some Forsaken are not allied with these evil apothcaries. Some seem to respect their new allies, as seen by the Forsaken looking for a cure to undeath in Thunder Bluff, and the one Lewis Phillips guy serving the Frostwolf Clan in Alterac Valley. So, they cannot be thinken as an evil race as a whole, even if many of them are.

Blood Elves: This is the arguement I've made at least a hundred times on here and Allakahzam. These guys are, once more, victims of the Scourge genocide, Garithos' bigotry, and being led by an insane madman. Many of them, while intially unappriacative of the Horde, may come to appriciate their spirtualists and shamans very recently, as of their redemption in Patch 2.3. Most blood elves no longer serve Kael'Thas, because he betrayed them for power and the Legion. The blood elves, while somewhat hateful and arrogant, are not evil, and some even are capable for tragic forms of honor, such as Vorren'thal the Seer, Lor'themar Theron, and Lady Liadrin.

So, I do not think Blizzard "ruined" the Horde's lore. I just think they made it more complex and diverse, which is a good thing, becuase that's more or less how the real world is. While WoW is a fantasy game, it is a much more complicated fantasy than Disney movies are. Eman91 20:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)Eman91

You know this, we know this. Anyone with half a brain knows this. Take the point to some people who actually believe that the Horde are evil and not to an encyclopedia. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

How long did you spend writing this, Eman91? :S Warchiefthrall (talk) 17:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

If the horde is evil the alliance is just as evil, its all a matter of POW, i see the alliance as evil, they kill us without provocation.--Gurluas (talk) 18:32, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

when in hell did the alliance attacked? really.. man i've read several things, you can get some quests from wowhead.. wow vanila, tbc, wotlk, there are SEVERAL quests that the horde jsut kill fro plotting or just to have FUN (http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=13228)

I'd like to see a day and: ow damm yeh horde are really evil.. (please i know about taurens, most of them, about some orcs but people, orcs WERE a race of peace, it will take a long time to thrall to educate the people to live without the battle agains be a knight or an old woman..)

please i know that the concept of nice orcs is nice, oyu know it's something different, but they just can't "kk now we've change.. get off, we made part of ashenvale our capita but what's up with that?" bah im really bad a writing and it's 1:54 am here.. see this:

http://forums.wow-europe.com/search.html?characterId=66937369810&sid=1 (nairi, she writes very nice posts if you're interested)[tvax][1]