• User talk:Baggins/archive1
  • User talk:Baggins/archive2


OK, now I'm completely bewildered: are we removing all traces of fanart, including those hosted on Blizzard's site? On a side note, is you e-mail still the same? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Ya, my email is the same. No, i'm not removing all fanart, I was mainly removing fanart where it was being used in infoboxes. Fanart should probably be of a certain quality standards though.

Also fanart on pages should probably go to its own fanart gallery section as well.Baggins 07:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a section should be added to WP:MOS or WP:IMAGE regarding fan art priority and location. I'm thinking the MoS may need splitting soon... >< Kirkburn  talk  contr
I ask because I've noticed some people just removing fanart from whereever, which can occasionally mean that a descision was made without my knowing. No issues, then. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 19:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I've done some updates to WP:MOS, moving all image guidelines to WP:IMAGE. As for what should be done I'm thinking something along the lines of this priority order:

  1. Official Blizzard artwork
  2. Unofficial but Blizzard-recognised artwork (with caption saying so)
  3. Excellent fanart (with caption saying so)
  4. No image
Article content (if lacking images)
  1. Official Blizzard artwork as thumbnails
  2. Unofficial but Blizzard-recognised artwork (with caption saying so) as thumbnails
  3. Good fanart (with caption saying so) as thumbnails
Article content (if many images)
  1. Official Blizzard artwork as thumbnails
  2. Unofficial but Blizzard-recognised artwork in fanart gallery section
  3. Excellent fanart in fanart gallery section

Reasonable? Kirkburn  talk  contr 21:13, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't like the "fanart gallery" deal. Obviously, if there are too many images, some should be excised from the article completely or some should be moved to the gallery; fanart, I'm not sure, should be the only suggested items to be moved to a gallery.
I also wonder on clips from the cinematics (see Grom), as well as non-artwork (screenshots), and comics images. If we're going to establish a hierarchy of any sort (I know there's an informal one posted on WT:Image or WT:MOS), then it needs to be thorough. =) --Sky (t | c | w) 21:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
There was a disscussion about infobox pictures before, but I can not find it.--SWM2448 21:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Sky, I'm only suggesting galleries when there's excellent images that are too good to remove. As for cinematic clips, those should certainly get their own section, probably something in the style of Videos. Kirkburn  talk  contr 22:32, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
We also have cases where there is too many official pictues, between artwork, screenshots, etc. In those cases some of the artwork needs to be put into galleries for the sake of the page layout issues, on different monitor settings(i.e. more pictures than text, space being added between headings, etc.)Baggins 03:28, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Page moved ?

Hi :)

I just wanted to ask why you moved the fanfic now on User:Ayun/Great Sea expansion Rune Master Ideas to my user page. Actually, this is not mine, I just looked for articles to wikify and seeing that the one about the classes already had the usual message "this page is blabla kB long, consider breaking it up", I was just wikifying and breaking up the 3 classes found there, adding an image etc. :) So since this is not my fanfic, but just something I wanted to clean up and wikify, what do we do now ? :) Greez, --Ayun 02:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh I see the page I was originally trying to wikify, Great Sea expansion pack ideas/Classes, doesn't exist anymore either ? Now I'm getting confused a bit :) --Ayun 02:37, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Ya its a clean up job to remove fanfic from main page spaces. You can read more about it in the great sea expansion talk page.Baggins 02:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
If you touch it, it is yours.--SWM2448 02:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
With that logic, I guess I belong to myself...often. =D Snake.gifSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3.gifFor Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 02:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
TMI... In anycase, if we can figure out who first posted that informatino and put it on their user page that would work.Baggins 03:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)


My my...Baggins, I think it be time to archive some of your talk page. Snake.gifSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3.gifFor Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 02:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Adminy stuff

Did you get my e-mail? I'd prefer not to think I'm talking to a blank monitor. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, sorry, I'm currently having some email issues. I just switched from offcampus apartment to oncampus dorm, and don't have my main computer hooked to the network as of yet. I'll let you know when I get things squared away.Baggins 22:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Even if your monitor wasn't blank...why you talking to your monitor at, nvm, I talk to my TV all the time too. Snake.gifSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3.gifFor Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 22:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I was just notifying you of a situation that's going into effect this Sunday. I'll be out of the country for the next month and a half with limited internet access, and I left you a few minor instructions. And I'll be checking in every week, so I can still rain fire and brimstone on POV violators if anyone tries to take advantage of the Head Bookkeeper's absence.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Alright, ya I checked your email through webmail and sent you a message.Baggins 22:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)


Why did you first add Template:Lolan (later edited again and added lolan instead) to the Highborne article? I haven't listed you in the Known Vandals page yet, I wanted to ask you first, but why? --The Lich KingTalkContribs-Lord Lightsword 09:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Typographical error. Iolan is a character. The template bit actually got added in out of a poor copy and paste.Baggins 09:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Err... lolan? like... lol? Seriously there can't be a character called... LOLAN! XD --The Lich KingTalkContribs-Lord Lightsword 10:00, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Its "eye" olan. not Lolan. Its a character in a short story in Alliance Player's GuideBaggins 10:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Aaaaaaah... now I understand, well then it was nothing =)... I'm going on WoW now so I might not be able to anwser so many things, ya know. Bye! --The Lich KingTalkContribs-Lord Lightsword 10:02, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

LOL, Baggins to even be considered as a vandal is laughable. Snake.gifSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3.gifFor Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 20:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I TOTALLY aggre xD when I say it I was like "... Baggins... a... vandal??? ...This is REALLY weird... won't list him on the page, must be some mistake!" XD --The Lich KingTalkContribs-Lord Lightsword 13:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

npcbox request

Prince Tortheldrin, as requested.--g0urra[T҂C] 21:43, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Paladins & Death knights

Surely. I added Zeliek due to his behavior and his ability (Holy Wrath). What about adding another column to the Ex-Paladin section where the difference between current and former affiliation is made? --N'Nanz 10:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, sure that would be handy. Btw, Naris is a human, non-affiliated ex-paladin. He's the leader of his own band. Likely dead after the events of his story (although I'll have to check on that again).Baggins 10:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Well I think that it's good adding the character to the table only after there is the article with source, do you agree? And I'm going to remove the race columb from List of warlocks too. I think the race icon suffices. --N'Nanz 10:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly the icons may be imprecise when you have a character who's race may not have a specific icon. Rare but may happen.Baggins 10:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Since Warlocks come from many races I'll let it this way. Now Jorad Mace: Paladin or ex-paladin? I mean in the Sunwell trilogy is clearly stated he is a ex-paladin nor he ever casted a holy spell but he acts and battles as a paladin, not to say his armor and behaviour. I mean the Ex-paladin listed are now a total different character class mainly corrupted. He seems to still follow The Three Virtues --N'Nanz 11:00, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

List him as both. Ex-paladin isn't really technically a character class, but more of a paladin with penalties. If he lost his abilities to use the light something had to have happened at some point to his personality or he made a mistake somewhere, and hasn't gone throught he atonement ritual yet.Baggins 11:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. However I didn't intend Ex-paladin to be a character class. I told that the character listed as Ex-Paladins are now of a different character class for example Nobundo is now a Shaman and Arthas is now a Death Knight. For this reason I think that it's better naming the section Former Paladins (and not Ex-Paladin) to express that the character ceased to be a paladin and become somethink other, not necessarily an Ex-paladin (a character as Jorad Mace that lost his holy abilities but still acts as a paladin). What about? --N'Nanz 11:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Ex-paladins can become other classes though. It just means they cease using their paladin abilities. Ex-paladins also don't always continue to act like paladins, though some may. For example its argueable that Aretain acts like a paladin or not. So he's listed as an 8th level "ex-paladin" for class purposes, although he's far from being an actual paladin. He's probably closer to Garithos' dark knight status than anything.Baggins 11:58, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, about Rivendare I am suspicious too. I added him before Naxxramas when being a death knight meant you were a paladin. In the end of the Sunwell Trilogy Jorad Mace says: " 'TIS TIME I SETTLED MATTERS WITH MI LORD...WITH ARTHAS." All along the comic he looks for redemption. What about Haephus Stonewall? He may be a paladin or a hunter, his armor looks similar to two sets looking alike for paladins and hunter too but he wields a hammer and hunters don't. So I added him but that's not certain. --N'Nanz 13:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The question is did Jorad mace receive the redemption he seeked, or not. Perhaps his abilities in WoW might offer a clue if he has any.
That armor and hammer looks vaguely similar to what a Gryph Riderer uses in battle as well. I'd be very careful about categorizing him.Baggins 12:53, 9 January 2008 (EST)

In truth he wears like both Kurdran Wildhammer and Baatun (the Lightforge Armor). Reginald Windsor!? I never saw him fighting maybe he is only a warrior? --N'Nanz 00:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I'd say warrior ya. He's a member of the Stormwind Guard right?Baggins 00:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I dunno! However I'm going to remove them both in couple... This way I have not to fix that boring color lines!!! :p ps) WTH I got a 5 minute ban!!! Can't understand how and why! --N'Nanz 00:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Its an ongoing bug. People are trying to figure it out. ya I say remove anyone that isn't specifically known to be a paladin or formerly a paladin.Baggins 00:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

RPG / Lore classes categories

Hey Baggins,

as you're the first person that comes to my mind when thinking of lore and rpg stuff, and you also created most of these, I guess...

Under User:Armagon/ToDo -> RPG / lore classes I listed all missing categories related to RPG / lore and maybe you got some ideas how to properly fill them with a sentence and even more important to organize them somehow, I have no idea how these could be properly categorized.

Also feel free to nag me on IRC, nick winkiller  Armagon (talk con 15:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

didn't see this page: Wowpedia:Cats2fix, maybe move the discussion over there?  Armagon (talk con 16:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Try, "Information related to "class".Baggins 12:53, 9 January 2008 (EST)


hey dude r u like crazy mad addicting to wowwiki or just Wow?User:Igotanger/Sig 02:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I enjoy Warcraft, and alot of things. However, I also have alot of time on my hands right now... Between semesters... This is a way to pass the time between boredom...Baggins 02:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Orc Appearance

You don't mind if I add back he line on orc snouts do you? Zarnks 05:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It seemed sort of redundant to me. Snout-like followed by snout... Yes I know there is a slight difference, but not that much.Baggins 17:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Well some orcs have snouts. It should be noted. Zarnks 19:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Some humans have 'snouts' too (look up snout in the dictionary), but that doesn't mean we allow anal retentive listing of all specific details on pages. Save it for the talk page. As I said before tehre is very little difference between the term "snout" and "snout-like" in some dictionary definitions they have the exact same meaning. So yes its incredibly redundant. So no, there isn't really a need to list both terms.Baggins 16:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The Illida/Malfurion/Tyrandetrin picture

Hey, I'm sorry if I am using the wrong chat/message function but This is the only thing I found. I was wondering if you could send me a link the the full version(all together and what not)of this picture: If there is no links to it, could you send it to me?


Look up "Sons of the Storms".Baggins 06:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Wmv pics

One quik Question,are Wmv pics counted as fanfiction?User:Airiph/sig 22:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Most likely not, if its unaltered in anyway. No costuming changes or anything. Wowwiki grey backgrounds are suggested.Baggins 23:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I think he means aren't. Fandyliic said somewhere WMV pics are not fan art.  IconSmall HighElf Male.gif Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 00:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I ment most likely not, unless they are altered too much. such as showing something that would be impossible to perform in-game. You'd also want to avoid datamining.Baggins 01:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Fan ART and fan FICTION are diferent,like there is no Airiph or Yanis in lore,but in made up stories there areUser:Airiph/sig 01:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Class ideas

What is the difference between class ideas and Possible future hero classes? I was cleaning them up a while ago on your request and hit this snag.--SWM2448 20:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Well one difference that I can see, is that apparently one is trying to discuss classes in general, the other is trying to discuss "hero classes". However I don't think that distinction is really that strong as of yet, and you probably could merge the two, with a section on hero classes, and a section on regular classes.Baggins 19:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Exellent. Where should they be merged to?--SWM2448 20:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure. I'm going to be busy for the time being, maybe you can discuss this with Sky as well, and get his opinion. However, "hero class" by itself is a legitimate article, so just the ideas section should be merged into another article.Baggins 08:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

After finally getting around to doing more work on it, I hit another snag: The scale. Do I need to put every DnD and WoW class I can find on the page? How much stuff on each one should be on there?--SWM2448 18:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


DO demon hunters get their tattoos before or after they become honorary demon hunters (by that I mean the ceremony where they yank out their eyes)  IconSmall HighElf Male.gif Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 21:33, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Ouch,I dont think they yank out their eyes,I think the fel blinds them,or they just thinking mockng blind people is cool(ITS NOT COOL!)User:Airiph/sig 01:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

No... They yank out their eyes....  IconSmall HighElf Male.gif Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 00:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh...*Airiph yells oww very loud*User:Airiph/sig 02:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Illidan's came out of his eyeholes.--SWM2448 03:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

They don't really yank out their eyes, they just burn them. Illidan's were destroyed during his transformation, and the A&HC and APG says that demon hunters burn out their eyes. I haven't found reference to their tattoos, so I think that's just a design quirk.--Austin P (talk) 14:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

At least, in the case of NE demon hunters (which the vast majority are), the tattoos could be the markings traditional of normal NEs. User:DScharff24/Sig 04:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


Since you reverted my edit at Explorers'_League#Members, I've been waiting for a reply on the talk page asking who this Hogun is. Can you give me any evidence to that he is dead in the Bael Modan ruins?--g0urra[T҂C] 18:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The adventure in the book describes the whole area around Bael Modan as the "Bael Modan" ruins. He wasn't dead in the underground proper, just outside areas. Additionally, "Bael Modan" proper refers to the dwarven city built on the ruins. The "ruins of Bael Modan" or Bael Modan ruins extends beyond the city itself throughout the whole area.Baggins 02:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Just for clarification, he doesn't exist in WoW just the RPG right? --   18:28, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Right. He's a corpse in the RPG, :p... Would be no point to have him in-game, ;).Baggins 18:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Late I know

But this is a cube from Diablo II if my memory of the game is good enough. --User:Adys/Sig 11:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

While there is a cube in Diablo II, called the Horadric Cube, the picture I linked to is actually Warcraft artwork from Sons of Storms, it also has a totally different name as you might have noticed.Baggins 22:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
No idea where this convo started, but isn't that one of the cubes used in the Magtheridon encounter to banish him? :s --   00:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Kalec

He's supposed to, I think, at least in his human(oid) avatar. He's a half-elf - so there'd still be a bit of a point to the ears. Seems more pronounced in others, though... (Arator, for instance.) --Joshmaul 04:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I know he's a half-elf (he's been a half-elf since the manga), I was just trying to make sure I wasn't trying to look too hard for something that might not be there.
BTW, arator doesn't count, he's just reuses a blood elf model. If this new Kalec model actually has short pointy ears it represents a new model design (at least partially), instead of just a recolored human reuse.
You can't see kalec's ears in the manga, in the RPG, half-elves have always been portrayed with short pointy ears (but half-elf artwork is rare).Baggins 04:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Dragons forms are half-elf like, keep that in mind. On the model, his ears are elongated (not short), but you can't see the ends to see if they point, my guess is they're meant to, but i'm too lazy to double check for any evidence in the actual texture file. --   02:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I alwase thought dragons can shift into anythingUser:Airiph/sig 02:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Deathwing, Nefarion, and Onyxia favor humans. Chromy favors a gnome. Krasus favors high elf, and possibly human. Tyri favors high elf. Malygos favored a bug like creature thing. Alexstraza is said to favor small creatures of nature. Other misc. dragons in humanoid forms in the game are in forms of humans, high elves, at at least one night elf.
So far only Kalec has favored half-elves.Baggins 03:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

So its just a mattr of what they favor?That means they can shift to anything right?User:Airiph/sig 03:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course, even tyri has a conversation about kalec and his choice in trilogy ;). Although I think their choice somewhat mirrors their personalities as well.Baggins 03:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Which is why all the black dragons have human shapeshift forms? And what did Tyri say about his choice?  IconSmall HighElf Male.gif Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 03:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

There are some black dragons in high elf form in Black Wing Lair.

The conversation was basically tyri discussing how they stick out in elf forms, and how she is stuck in the form, because of the neck rings put on them, so she can't change into something less conpicuous.Baggins 03:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


Baggins, buddy! I've lost your email address and I'd love to talk to you sometime. Please email me Reuel 10:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


Do you think there is another continent that can be found on Azeroth?TharamaDawnblade 12:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I would think there's always space given for something new. Kirkburn  talk  contr 17:49, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Other side of azeroth?I alwase thaught there could be an active titan city there.User:Airiph/sig 21:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Doubtful, but not entirely unlikely. This goes back to the question of whether the continents were blasted apart or merely shattered during the Sundering, as we have been told numerous times that Kalimdor was the only landmass upon Azeroth. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
No one knows where Pandaria is...--SWM2448 21:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Pandaria isn't a continent, its always been described as an island.Baggins 18:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I always thought it was a small island, too. Baggins, email me! Reuel 01:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Well because it's an island doesn't mean it's not a continent (Well in RL anyway). I mean look at Australia.  IconSmall HighElf Male.gif Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 16:26, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't consider Australia an Island... unless you're willing to say South America is an island too ....... heck all the landmasses on earth are islands just some are larger than others..... User:CoobraSssssssssssssssssssssssss User:CoobraFor Pony! {TDon't hiss at me.CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.) 19:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Continent and island are not mutually exclusive terms, you moron. We have two separate island continents on Earth, though the title "continent" actually has more to do plate tectonics, you should try reading something outside of the RPGs sometime. I'd be suprised if you actually read the Hobbit. Lckyluke372 (talk) 03:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I should ban you for your insults...
1. I've read the Hobbit several times. I've read LOTRO, I've even read some of the History of Middle Earth... But I see see how that relates to anything... The Hobbit has nothing to do with "islands".
2. The point is unless blizzard specifices that Pandaria is an continent we will only use the term, "island". The point was not that they can't be used mutually, but that Blizzard has never called Pandaria a continent. We will not assume more than what we have been told. Speculation is not allowed.
3. I've probably read more than you have, boy. While I'm not persuing a major in geology, it is my minor. However, my true passion is anthropology, specifically Archaeology. So yes I read alot more than RPGs... RPG books make up 1% of my reading content, if that much at all.
4. You assumed too much, and when you assume you make an ass out of you and me.
You need to grow up, become more mature, and learn that ad hominem attacks are fallacies, and make you look bad.Baggins (talk) 03:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I love that saying "when you assume you make an ass out of you and me" it's very true. User:CoobraSssssssssssssssssssssssss User:CoobraFor Pony! {TDon't hiss at me.CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.) 04:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

c 1. You're one to talk considering you are the admin most frequently accused of being rude (your two greatest contributions to this wiki are a condescending attitude toward its members that has made you generally unpopular.) Furthermore, you accused me of not knowing what an average was because you were too busy trying to be glib to notice that I wasn't confusing range and averages, I was saying we should include the average because when presented with a range, people tend to just assume its the median, since its often confused with a mean. However after being told that you still thought I didn't know the difference, because apparently there is no place in this universe for you to be wrong. 2. You said was "its not a continent, it's an island" when the two are not mutually exclusive terms, was merely pointing this out. 3. I talk to you this way because I'm tired of you being glib with people less well-versed in the lore than you, its rather unbecoming, you can ban me, but you're always the admin people are butting heads with, when you start showing others respect I'll show you respect. 4. No, you're immature. Lckyluke372 (talk) 04:11, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

You lckyluke, knock off the personal attacks. You Baggins, be nicer in general. Now, what was the original issue you had with the content (not the editor), lcky? --Sky (t · c · w) 04:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so you are admitting you came into this discussion just to attack me personally in order to provoke me...? Well, we can't allow that kind of thing. I've given you a warning. I'll even be so kind to let you have another. But if you continue down this path you will enjoy a nice vacation.
Again Blizzard has never states that Pandaria is a continent. Not all islands are continents. Its wrong to automatically assume that an island is a continent. To assume that one is based on very little knowledge is pure speculation. We don't allow speculation in the articles.
Sir, you have been warned...Baggins (talk) 04:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Baggins, I apologize for what I said last night, I did not come into this discussion to attack you, I was in a bad mood already and I just happened to read something you wrote on another page and it irked me because I felt you were being haughty. Then I saw that you wrote Pandaria is an island, not a continent, which I took poorly because not only was I already in a bad mood before longing on, but in addition to striking me as haughty, to me you seemed both haughty and incorrect; we still don't know whether Pandaria is a continent or not, contrary to what I felt you were saying (of course I could have misinterpreted it.) I suppose part of the problem is the fact that this is a medium for global communication, meaning that something that might be considered rude where I come from might not be considered rude where you come from. I come from the Southeastern United States, a la Rhett Butler, and we rarely use absolutes when talking, and when having difficulties with another individual we tend to speak as if we're the ones at fault. Furthermore, when speaking to others without the proper self-deprecation, we tend to not handle it well. Instead of saying "there are flaws in your logic" one might say "I'm sorry I don't follow you," or instead of saying "Lest you don't know what "average" means, or how one comes about getting an average, I suggest you boneup on on your mathamatic knowledge, and learn Averages," just don't. Everyone knows what "average" means, and try not to misspell words while questioning other people's knowledge (I'm trying to be playful here, all in good fun, and stuff.)

To give an example I'm take some quotes from a previous argument we had on the Darkspear discussion page.

"Ok you seem to be dense on the subject of Averages." Okay, that one's pretty much a direct insult

"You couldn't tell the difference between an average and height range (you assumed by the info in RPG that average orcs were taller than average trolls, implying that all orcs were taller than all trolls)." This comes after I explained to you that I did indeed pass algebra and know what average means.

As it turned out, after you accused me of being ignorant of the definition of averages no less than three times, it turned out that what I was trying to say was that what we had under the 'average height' section of the page was in fact the range of heights (6'1"-7'1") and I was requesting that we change the average height section to reflect the average height. The issue was partly my fault as I initially communicated what I was trying to say very poorly. However, you made an ass of yourself and me (to use a turn of phrase) by assuming me to be ignorant of the definition of "average," and the bulk of your ensuing argument was based off of that incorrect assumption, even after I tried to tell you otherwise. I subsequently didn't take it well, (once again my apologies) got frustrated and subsequently had a harder time trying to clarify my part as anger clouded my mind a bit (okay a lot.) I'm not dredging this up to renew an old fight, however I'm trying to draw attention to the fact that you and I both need to be more patient in dealing with our differing circumstances, not only with ourselves, but with others as well. Remember, miscommunication is the cause of 3/4 of all human conflict. Lckyluke372 (talk) 06:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Really....I don't understand why dredged up a conversation from almost a year ago...? Some kinda grudge? Until you brought it up I honestly didn't remember you, and all I saw was someone coming in and attacking me for no apparent reason. I was confused... I then only remembered the conversation we had because you decided to painfully bring it up again and beat me over the head with it... To make matters worse you attacked me on a point where there is no definitive answer (which I just discovered looking into it)...
In some definitions;
An island is "A land mass, especially one smaller than a continent, entirely surrounded by water."Randomhouse Unnabridged-american heritage dictionary[1]
An island is "1: a tract of land surrounded by water and smaller than a continent"-Webster's dictionaryWebster
An island is 1. a tract of land completely surrounded by water, and not large enough to be called a continent.[2]
1. a land mass (smaller than a continent) that is surrounded by water-wordnet, princeton
Island, any comparatively small body of land completely surrounded by water.-encarta[3]
If one went by those definitions, then it means that they define islands and continent as seperate things, and exclusive from each other... I'm sure you could find a source that states the opposite[4].... I'll give you that... But what that means is there is no right or wrong definition in language sometimes...different groups may have different definitions for the same terms, or define things differently.
Imo, argueing over semantics and linguistic differences is rather pointless. Maybe you have a different definition of "continent" and "island" where you come from. But it seems that others have different definitions still...
Anycase, i'm still rather confused as to what your purpose in coming into this was in the first place, and why its even relevant... You might notice that this discussion was almost half a year old.Baggins (talk) 11:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Lol. That was a fun read. Though i usually love chatting with you Baggins (why aren't you on aim anymore?), since your return i'm seeing this sort of thing more and more when i read your comments and probably his reasoning applies to our last argument over mahnwa :p Worries me a bit tbh. --   13:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstand my intentions, I brought that up to give you examples of things that you do that have a tendency to accidentally offend, because if it was me, I would like to know what I was doing to offend somebody else. I don't have any hard feelings about that incident (or this one) I dredged it up as a good example of what I was talking about, and the only one I could remember clearly anyway. I'm trying to be conciliatory here because I don't hold grudges well at all and have a hard time nursing a vendetta. It was a "for future reference" sort of thing, so you could see what the nature of the problem is. In the future I will be mindful of the fact that since we don't have the same experiences so therefore, I can't judge you based off of the standards I'm accustomed to. I hope you, in turn, show patience when dealing with me in the future, since we seem to have these little spats all too often. Once again I apologize.

Secondly, I want you to know I don't nurse I grudge against you, I can tell just from discussing things with you that you are a very intelligent guy, however you sometimes have a habit of speaking to people not granted with your gift in a manner that strikes me as being rude, and I have a tendency to be protective of people who I feel are being picked on (whether or not the help is asked for or needed.) I did not come to this page to pick a fight with you, I actually came to this page because since you are such a smart guy, people tend to ask you some of the most interesting questions. I happened to see something you wrote to someone else that I felt to be rather condescending, and I lost control of my temper. I want you to know that with me you have a clean slate, and while I'm not promising I won't speak my mind if I read something you write that bothers me, I will remember to be more respectful when I do so. Lckyluke372 (talk) 19:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


While I was trying to respect naming policy, I wrote wrong. His name is Gelbin, not Gelbil. Can you fix it? Sorry for the inconvenience --N'Nanz 18:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Latosius, the Kaldorei Resistance, and Sorcery

I'm a bit confused. Latosius (a non highborne sorceror) was part of the kaldorei resitance who were the good niht elves, and whose page links to "Night Elf". I don't understand. The NEs hate sorcery and the arcane, yet Latosius and other sorcerers I thought he had were on their side. Would you be able to clarify holes in my story or something?  IconSmall HighElf Male.gif Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 16:25, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

"good night elves"? No. The resistance was made up of several inner groupings of Night Elves all fighting for different goals, merely having the common desire to rid the world of the Burning Legion. It wasn't until after the war ended that they began to shun sorcery and any arts that relied on the arcane powers. Which is when what would become the remnant Highbourne in the world and future High Elves split off. --   08:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Image Uploads

I just need to ask if I can upload the fallowing images.

Lor'themar Theron and Dar'Khan Drathir, sunwell trilogy #3 images from the past (before the distraction of the Sunwell).

A bit bigger version of Dark Factions cover art, and Lor'themar TCG art.

And tease two [5] [6]. Zakolj 15:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Comic template

Which template should be used for the Warcraft Comic: {{Graphic novel}} or {{Comic}} The firs includes the second one in itself so it's a bit confusing... Dakovski 14:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, as far as I know unless things have changed we have been using the first template. Partially because "The Comic" isn't actually the official name of the comic series.Baggins 19:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


Done, though it could do with some references. ;) --User:Vorbis/Sig 14:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, I'll look it over when I get the chance.Baggins (talk) 15:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Centaur weight

Do you know about how much centaurs weigh? User:CoobraSssssssssssssssssssssssss User:CoobraFor Pony! {TDon't hiss at me.CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.) 20:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Let me check. Base weight, 250 females, 280 males. I haven't done the math but they probably range to over 600 pounds or so. Fandylic might add the weight information later if he gets the chance, weight.Baggins (talk) 21:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Thankyou. User:CoobraSssssssssssssssssssssssss User:CoobraFor Pony! {TDon't hiss at me.CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.) 21:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

A couple of admin moves only

Since it won't let me, and I don't want to just copy and paste (since told to), could you move Death Knight sets to Death knight sets and Deathcharger to Death Charger. Thankyou. User:CoobraSssssssssssssssssssssssss User:CoobraFor Pony! {TDon't hiss at me.CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.) 01:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

And Summon Deathcharger to Summon Death Charger.--Sandwichman2449 (talk) 01:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
That one could be done, since that page didn't exist =). User:CoobraSssssssssssssssssssssssss User:CoobraFor Pony! {TDon't hiss at me.CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.) 01:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Why the name split?--Sandwichman2449 (talk) 01:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
They are called Death Chargers by Tom Chilton in an interview [7] It might have been believed to be Deathcharger due to the other class mounts being one name, but since it was stated as two names, it best to go with that one until confirmed in-game. User:CoobraSssssssssssssssssssssssss User:CoobraFor Pony! {TDon't hiss at me.CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.) 01:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
nvm, it was an interview and the site could type it as they want to, not as it could have been meant... I guess we could leave as is, until confirmed. User:CoobraSssssssssssssssssssssssss User:CoobraFor Pony! {TDon't hiss at me.CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.) 01:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
point of note, it is "Deathcharger" in the rpg, see Monster Guide.Baggins (talk) 05:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Murloc Puddle Lord


Haven't you played Warcraft III? Still, look onto the page Murloc Puddle Lord. There are proofs. --Naga MaleShargas the Naga (blearrgglaerrgall) 11:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure I've played warcraft III, a long time ago. There are likely many things I don't remember. However, unless there is proof that this murloc puddle lord had a bigger part than just being a just another creep on the map. I.E. citations on the page, discussing conversations, quest info, etc. Then it may not be reliable. Secondly, as far as Dark Factions is concerned there are no murlocs in the Horde... So its kind of a pointless reference at this time.Baggins (talk) 17:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Uh, in the mission when Sylvanas was going to destroy Varimathras' camp, there were few "additional quests" to control leaders of specific tribes. Among them were Mug'thol and Murloc Puddle Lord. Sure, he was mentioned never again (not appearing in WoW too), probably dying when storming Varimathras. Still, he possibly is alive and thus his tribe might become a hub of a playable subrace. I'm also not big fan of this idea, but we should take this into consideration as "weak for", using the War3 mission as a citation. --Naga MaleShargas the Naga (blearrgglaerrgall) 18:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok but still that page needs better citation, and quest information/name. Anycase, by the time of Dark Factions there are no murloc in the Horde. Possessed bansheeized murloc would hardly be true murlocs... Just banshees with a murloc shell... Also if the tribe was originally small it would hardly be enough for a playable race. Also consider if Mug'thol didn't like being possessed, I hardly think mur'locs would either if they regained their minds. They weren't true allies, just forced into fighting as mindslaves.Baggins (talk) 18:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
But still an argument, we're not deciding on that page what would appear in WoW, just giving some suspicions, and it is one of them. And I believe the quest was just "Murloc Puddle Lord". Maybe he didn't liked it, but it's not over argument "for the Horde", but just for playability, maybe even as an alliance, whole page is just one big suspicion. --Naga MaleShargas the Naga (blearrgglaerrgall) 18:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

There are too many negative points denying its current existence in the lore, and the history behind their "joining" for it to be even partially green. Neutral white "?" only. Also you might have missed the memo, but if something denies the existence of previous information, then the older info is no longer valid.Baggins (talk) 18:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, only neutral "?" However, he was never actually denied, just... forgotten, never mentioned again, like Garona after War1. --Naga MaleShargas the Naga (blearrgglaerrgall) 18:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, Dark Factions stating that there are no murlocs in the horde is denying the existence of the Puddle Lord in current times.Baggins (talk) 19:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

He was just randomly possessed. Don't read so much into it. (When I did it, I just killed him, cause I was bored.) Kirkburn  talk  contr 19:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't even think there was a quest related to possessing him, just the ogres and bandits.--Austin P (talk) 14:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not denying his existence. Mug'thol is too not on the Horde side, but that doesn't mean he vanished into the vacuum. Puddle Lord might be freed or dead, or forgotten by the RPG authors. They're not all-knowing, as was presented with Maiev's supposed death. I just want him to be just mentioned, nothing else, because he was there. --Naga MaleShargas the Naga (blearrgglaerrgall) 14:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I checked it with a friend. In Dark Factions it is not mentioned, whether there are or are not Murlocs on Horde side. There are just no mentioned - it's not said that there are, and it's also not mentioned that they are not. It gives us possibility that Puddle Lord is there, just forgotten by the RPG authors. --Naga MaleShargas the Naga (blearrgglaerrgall) 13:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

They aren't mentioned because it was largely a game mechanic in warcraft III that could allow any ol murlock to be possessed, as someone previously stated. If they are no longer important they aren't going to be mentioned. Dark Factions is discussing the race as a whole. They are as a whole an independent race. A small percentage of enslaved murlocs is hardly enough to be a playable race.Baggins (talk) 18:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
No, it was NOT just the game mechanics. I've played this mission a week ago, so I can remember this. There was a quest to possess him. And small percentage of High Elves that escaped Quel'Thalas and converted to Blood Elves was enough to be playable race, so why not Puddle Lord's tribe? "Because Dark Factions don't mention him" is not a reason. --Naga MaleShargas the Naga (blearrgglaerrgall) 20:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
A few reasons, and your simply trying to ignore citations doesn't work.
1. Blood elves aren't banshee mindslaves, unlike these murlocs were supposed to be.
2. A banshee mindslave is not a race. Slaves do not have freedom or choice. This is the same reason why the Scourge will will probably not be playable.
3. There are more blood elves than there are Darkspear trolls, which is certainly enough for a playable race.
4. There is at least 10,000 darkspear trolls approximately. Which is certainly enough for a playable race.
5. In the game Sylvanas only raided one murloc villages to get to their village leader, villages are said to have only 6-12 individuals at the most[1], and that one village represents one tribe[2] (this is hardly enough for playiblity by any standards).
7. Dark Factions is very specific in that there are no murlocs in the horde or alliance right now, and if there are, they are "unheard of" in the present time). Translation, there are little to no murlocs on either side in "present time", "a dozen murlocs at the most is not playable".
Sorry future race ideas is for credible citation, not pure and almost absurd speculation.-Baggins (talk) 20:22, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to check, I replayed the mission, and there ISN'T a specific quest dedicated to possessing the Puddle Lord. All that happens is Sylvanas says "These slimy wretches could serve me well" when she approaches them.--Austin P (talk) 15:10, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Halduron Brightwing

By looking at your edits to Halduron Brightwing i'm assuming Dark factions retconned the progression of Sylvannas>Lorthemar>Halduron to just Sylvannas then Halduron? Just want to check before making any edits to Lorthemar's page and any other related ones.Warthok Talk Contribs 05:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ya, just Sylvannas then Halduron. I thought it seemed "different". To be fair the book didn't mention Lor'themar as far as I know. But I think it would be a bit weird if it went Sylvanas, Halderon, Lor'themar, Halduron as order of promotion. But I don't think there is anything that would fully deny that progression.

However, with all points that might be in conflict, both versions should probably be noted somehow, with specific citations/links of course.Baggins (talk) 08:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Changes are done. However was wondering if you could add a citation from DF (mines still not here :( grrrr) to the new section and look it over for me.Warthok Talk Contribs 04:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I've already added citations to Halduron's talk page. Lor'themar wasn't mentioned so I can't very well cite him.Baggins (talk) 18:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

"En feugo"?

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Haven't you read what I'd written as an explanation?--K ) (talk) 16:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear mr.Baggings

I understand if you changed silly templates, but i asked user:Ragestorm what would be right template, and he said Silly, because Bunnies are not part of lore. Thank you, and dont forget to Undo. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by M1330 (talk · contr).

However, his suggestion is not actually our policy, as I stated on his talk page,

Silly template is actually only to be used on fan created warcraft material. Blizzard jokes is too broad of a designation. Alot of things in Blizzard games are injokes, or puns, or some sort of humor. Many many character names in WoW though. Yes things may be silly in official Blizzard games, but that doesn't automatically mean they should be marked as such. We maintain a neutral point of view on this issue, and silly is a subjective terminology. Also bone up on the neutral definition of lore given in our policy page... Which is to include backstories from Warcraft III scenarios, with the caveat that they may have little to do with main warcraft universe. But that is not for us to judge


--Baggins (talk) 16:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


i just tried to put something that sonds logical, but could you link source so? i haven´t read from rpg book that defias is lawful evil..but if u link source, then its ok... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by M1330 (talk · contr).

Source is the same as the updated population number, :). Dark Factions.Baggins (talk) 06:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
its good that somebody here has read dark factions....btw when was it released?M1330 (talk) 06:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
The websites still refer it to being under pre-order... but I got notice that they'd be shipping it around June 2nd to the 16th ... User:CoobraSssssssssssssssssssssssss User:CoobraFor Pony! {TDon't hiss at me.CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.) 18:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
It was released earlier this month. Whitewolf's release date should be mentioned either in Dark Factions page, or in its talk page.Baggins (talk) 18:21, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Updates on future race ideas

Before you will remove from the Naga section the text "affiliated with Old Gods" I must say: they are affiliated with them. Their transformation into Naga was caused by Old Gods, read Knaak. I must say it before you remove it using excuse "not mentioned in Dark Factions". --Naga MaleShargas the Naga (blearrgglaerrgall) 13:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

First, like everything else on the page, it requires a citation. Haven't you bothered to read the rules for the page at the top? Secondly the question is are they "still" affiliated with the old gods. 10,000 years in the past is a long time, and affiliations change. The entire quote might need to be changed to "previously affiliated". Regardless it still needs the page citations.Baggins (talk) 18:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Just don't remove it and give people time to find appriopriate citation. --Naga MaleShargas the Naga (blearrgglaerrgall) 19:58, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The Old Gods turned them, which would indicate they have plans for them, but I haven't come across anything indicating that the naga are doing their will.--Austin P (talk) 15:19, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


when i checked syndicate and they are neutral evil, formely chaos evil :0, im confused, could you link some info/text from DF?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by M1330 (talk · contr).

sign your posts, they are neutral evil in DF, that is the quote.Baggins (talk) 18:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
...that doesnt make any sense. is it lawful evil in other rpg books?M1330 (talk) 12:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

if 1 rpg book says thei flawful evil and another says neutral evil shoulnd they be neutral evil AND lawflu evil, not former? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by M1330 (talk · contr).

Sign your posts.
1. The RPG books are set in chronologically different times.
2. The rules in the RPG are often updated, and changed. If a newer book says they are are something else, then it means things have changed/retconned from the previous book.
3. Listing new and then former means both are shown, but lets people see that the rpg has changed their statistics.Baggins (talk) 18:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
ok, thanks M1330 (talk) 14:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

And FYI, D&D rules prevent something from being two alignments, even though they might lean toward another.--Austin P (talk) 15:21, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


Blood Elves and Forsaken don't get on well? But I thought... what?... I'm so confused. Lckyluke372 (talk) 22:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Well specifically the Farstriders and Forsaken didn't get along well (with the Farstriders being somewhat independent of other blood elves as an organization). Dark Factions (which is set before TBC) states that Sylvanas was trying to convince the main bulk of blood elves in Silvermoon to ally with her and had ambassadors in talks with them. As far as Farstrider's current opinions of Forsaken, its fairly unclear but they do work with them, since the leaders agreed to the truce.Baggins (talk)
Well I guess that would explain when questing in Ghostlands, the farstriders being in their own area and giving quests that give you Silvermoon rep and not Tranquillien rep. User:CoobraSssssssssssssssssssssssss User:CoobraFor Pony! {TDon't hiss at me.CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.) 01:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Well it confirms that Tranquillien and Farstriders aren't the same ;). Though in the RPG, the farstriders are somewhat independent of the Silvermoon. Again this is before TBC, it might have changed after Silvermoon allies with the Forsaken. Its possible that they fully integrated into Silvermoon. ...or its a game mechanic issue. Who knows...?Baggins (talk) 01:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Lckyluke372 (talk) 18:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


Infobox states that worgens can be priests and mages ect. Worgens are beasts, and i don´t think that normal worgens can practice arcane arts...woud this be better? just asking, i dont want to get banned. M1330 (talk) 09:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Worgen character = Barbarian(worgen) Mage, Warrior, Warlock, Priest (human/worgen hybrids)

Worgen are more than beasts, and the statistics come from Lands of Conflict and Monster Guide. No you may not alter it.Baggins (talk) 09:40, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
thanks, and by the way, i added Unbroken as faceless one faction, am i banned now or something? And Texts in-game tell that worgens are beast, but maybe there is different kind of worgens aswell? M1330 (talk) 09:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

it was listed as faceless one faction. M1330 (talk) 10:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

You are not to edit infoboxes no matter what. YOu are not to edit no matter what other articles might "speculate". Not unless you ask me or Kirkburn first and get our reply. If we agree then you can do it. This is to avoid speculation from getting into infobox which is primarly a source of official information.Baggins (talk) 10:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

thanks, but isnt that fact that he is dark elf....but btw if dark elves evolve from dark trolls who evolve from zandalar, isnt it possible? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by M1330 (talk · contr).

I think Baggins is trying to say that it is speculative that he is even a dark elf. So you are making two jumps: that he is a dark elf and that dark elves evolved from dark trolls. Rolandius (talk) 13:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Its hinted or stated that dark trolls came after night elves. Sort of represent trolls that regressed from forest trolls or whatever. Remember this is not a forum.Baggins (talk) 12:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, stay to one talk page, quit jumping around like a hyper rabbit on steroids... and stop making headings every time you type a new sentence... Its ridiculous!!!Baggins (talk) 12:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

like in this picture. [[9]] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by M1330 (talk · contr).

That picture is cool but it does say speculative on it. Rolandius (talk) 12:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for causing trouble, i know, im bit noob, my apologies.M1330 (talk) 12:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

As I said before stop making new headings every time you type a new sentence... Its not needed, and its very annoying... Keep a discussion to a single heading.Baggins (talk) 12:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


Okay, so originally the difference between shaman and druids was that druids drew power from nature, as in the living plants and animals, while shamans drew their power from the elements themselves. Then it seems Knaak decided that Druids can control the elements too? Then what's the point of a shaman? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lckyluke372 (talk · contr).

Sign your posts.
You have the answer to your own question in your first sentance: Drew. Its the sources that are different not nessearly the results. By elements of course you mean fire, water, earth, etc...things that mages can all control too (fireballs, water elementals, rock golems of the kirin tor). Warlocks have a good mastery over fire as well. Druids draw on the internal heat of a seed to burn enemies, and call upon cyclones, a natural occurance. Mages and Warlocks can even accelerate growth of living objects. Of course everyone creates and controls these actions via different methods. Druids calling upon nature, Shamans the elemental spirits, and mages and warlocks by using arcane magic. The exact details are a bit more complex as i'm sure Baggins will meantion, but i'm just gonna give you the short version.
In response to "what's the point of shamans?". Different "classes" can share roles. You might say whats the point of druids if paladins and priests can heal. Ultimetly Shamans and Druids are still different and theres likely many things each can do far more effectively than the other. And i do mean from a lore perspective, not a WoW-class-balance/game-mechanics/overpowered-qq perspective.Warthok Talk Contribs 18:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

To bottom line it, a passage from Lands of Mystery states that druids focus on nature and plants, while shamans focus on raw elements and animals.--Austin P (talk) 15:24, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Please ban me.

Just incase I make an even bigger fool out of my self.--The last Alterac (talk) 10:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

aww....did you have to remove it? i think is pritty good makes sense

by the way, if you like to delete stuff go to clean infinite dragonflight article.

good idea, lets make a poll. M1330 (talk) 11:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Day of the Dragon question

H,i I am guessing you have read Day of the Dragon? If you remember the part where they describe Krasus' lair—and the shining pool in that secret area he found—do you know what those creatures he sees in the pool are? Krasus says he clearly can see sometimes an arm, a torso or even a leg. Rolandius (talk) 09:05, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Uh, I haven't completed the book yet. Still busy reading alot of things :p...Baggins (talk) 09:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
LOL Okay well they never say in the book. So if you see anything in other books don't forget to tell me. Rolandius (talk) 09:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
What page? If they don't say, we're probably not meant to know. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 15:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Page 265. They've never really gone back to Krasus' magic well, so what it is and how it came to be will probably remain unknown.--Austin P (talk) 14:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


I'm a bit confused, I thought that Eternal was a title that had two requirements: That you be very, very, very powerful, and that you have worshippers. I have noticed you have posted several times in various articles like "Eternal" is a title earned through power alone, which seems contrary to what I always read. Otherwise, Furion would be an Eternal too, right? He defeated several Eternals in combat in War of the Ancients, Xavius and Archimonde being notable examples. If there are mortals powerful enough to defeat Eternals in combat and not be considered Eternals themselves than Eternal can't just be a title based on power alone, right? Lckyluke372 (talk) 22:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

That being said, if Medivh had access to all of the power of Sargeras, Khadgar wouldn't be walking around today, and he wouldn't have died. That being said, that means Medivh is powerful enough to be an Eternal on his own, and his possession by Sargeras had nothing to do with it. That doesn't explain where Medivh got worshippers though (the other requirement for the status of Eternal is worshippers.) Lckyluke372 (talk) 22:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know where this whole definition of an eternal discussion came from and i dont really care, i'm not here to take anyones side. RPG book makes it pretty clear: Eternals are the divine-like beings of Azeroth and the other planes who shape the large arcs of history for good and ill. Gods (Elune, Ancients, Titans, Old Gods, Loa, etc...) explain themselves. Xavius and Azshara are also beings of worship and immortal, as are the dragon aspects which is why while they may not be gods they are eternals. Demon Lords is a bit more iffy but they are respected by many (feared) and have become immortal in some form from all the demonic magic granted to them. a powerful human. No worship, and in life wasn't immortal. As weren't the other guardians. And Malfurion as you just stated. Yet neither the other guardians or malfurion are eternals, but the RPG says Medivh is, so it has to go into the article. So he's placed in the article but his inclusion warrants a bit of speculation as to why he is considered one. The speculation is valid. Being possed by a titan or becoming a type of prophet/guardian spirit may be why he is one. It shouldn;t be removed.Warthok Talk Contribs 22:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Point of note, Medivh is also listed as an Outsider, which is someone not from Azeroth. Since the article is referring to a dual-natured medivh both sargeras avatar and medivh in one body (including both abilities from both beings). We know that Medivh is infact from Azeroth, that means that the Eternal and Outsider status most likely comes from the abilities given to him from Sargeras. Yes in the rpg mechanics medivh's statistics are a combination of abilities from sargeras and normal human abilities. The eternal and outsider are templates applied to the character to utilize certain abilities specific to eternals and outsiders may of the same ones sargeras has later in the book.Baggins (talk) 04:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


So you moved Dragonmaw to  [Dragonmaw]. Why? g0urra[T҂C] 00:43, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Come on you tell me which is more important in the long scheme of things... You know that the Dragonmaw clan is often known as simply "Dragonmaw", right?Baggins (talk) 00:45, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm with gourra on this one tbh, though I understand the reasoning. --Sky (t · c · w) 04:06, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Special:Whatlinkshere/Dragonmaw. 13 links for the mace, 7 for the clan. Not to mention that you didn't fix the link for the mace, and so there's broken tooltips for those links. g0urra[T҂C] 10:24, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I don't know how to fix tooltips, but since there are a dozen things entitled "Dragonmaw" I made Dragonmaw into a disambig.Baggins (talk) 10:27, 13 June 2008 (UTC) don't know how to make a link such as [Dragonmaw]? g0urra[T҂C] 10:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Nope, and I never tried. I'm more interested in lore details than game mechanic things. I don't even really get a chance to play the game all that much.Baggins (talk) 10:35, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Blame it on "game mechanics" how much you like because of your lore-freak nature, but you can't simply ignore that it's "wiki mechanics", and breaking links because you think that lore is more important than the wiki is pretty much arrogant. g0urra[T҂C] 10:38, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
What I was saying is I generally won't create pages or work on pages that have to do with random items that have no lore. I just have no interest to do so. The chances of me linking to an item is next to zilch because of it. You aren't suggesting I just randomly look up stuff on a WoW related site and see if there is an article for it and start filling in game details and statistics do you? I mean I don't need to create those pages for you... There are plenty of people that are interested in that sort of thing. Generally speaking I don't know if I'm breaking anything... Have a chill pill.10:52, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding capitals on clans ... the current format appears to be "Clans", so it's probably best to stick to that for now. Kirkburn  talk  contr 11:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, although Lands of Conflict used both capital and lower case, I was basing off of the new Dark Factions which either refers to them as the Dragonmaw, the Dragonmaw orcs or Dragonmaw clan;

You bring shame on the Dragonmaw clan. I, Orgrar of the Blackrock clan, slew three human males and one traitor orc from the false Horde in the raid.[3]

--Baggins (talk) 11:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)You bring shame on the Dragonmaw clan. I, Orgrar of the Blackrock clan, slew three human males and one traitor orc from the false Horde in the raid.”


I know we live on hope that the retcons will stop and everything will be revealed, but seriously? Fox_Ancient, Hooded Ancient, Reptilian Ancient, Stick Bug Ancient (and many others besides), with articles this small, we might as well paste the info into the main list on Ancient and have done with it. If new lore is revealed, we'll add, it, obviously (though at this rate, the Bookkeepers will be flying Pig Airlines). I am saying this mostly in regards to the novel ancients, as I still defer to you on RPG matters, but especially with RPG monsters there are notability concerns. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 02:55, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry you don't like pixies either? :p... I know some people have an interest in these obscure references. When I added a few of the "guardians" last year, it was during discussions on the topic in Irc.
If you want to just combine the others to the list in Ancients article that's your choice.Baggins (talk) 03:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, no I don't like pixies, but 1) they are named and 2) there is an associated image, neither of which can be said about these ancients. I'm interested in the obscure references too, I'm just saying that when the obscure references amount to less than a paragraph, I don't think they need their own articles. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Titan a primary language?

Do you mean Titan is not a primary language of the dragons or to any race?  Rolandius Wc3Knight.gif (talk - contr) 06:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Not a primarily language to many races. Only titans, and a few giants.Baggins (talk) 06:51, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh okay ya I agree.  Rolandius Wc3Knight.gif (talk - contr) 07:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

understood Kesmana (talk) 10:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


Well that was a lot of typing for nothing.LOL How do I tell if it is official? I saw dozens of pictures on that site that are also on this site.  Rolandius Wc3Knight.gif (talk - contr) 10:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

If its listed under category of Warcraft, and has the copyright to blizzard its official. If its in personal work its not official. If artwork was under personal but used inside a blizzard product then it is official by default (unless Blizzard states its fanart]]).Baggins (talk) 10:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay I will look for "official" clues next time.  Rolandius Wc3Knight.gif (talk - contr) 10:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Ignoring sources

I think you have a bias for RPG sources. If it is not in the RPG, you think less of it. If it is in the RPG, you bring more importance to it. For example, a source in the Warcraft III manual and the site is secondary to a source in an RPG book according to you.  Rolandius Wc3Knight.gif (talk - contr) 03:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Actualy pretty blind it seems, but I add info from all sources. Please read up on our Wowpedia:Lore policy policy please. Although I might remind later sources may or may not retcon previous sources. However, all versions are told. I'm currently going through various sources finding various interpretations. It seems no one knew about the alterantive "kaldorei tribe" backstory.
Also I noticed since you tried to delete the comments on the RPG's accounts previously. Should I say perhaps you are biased only to the games, and not the whole of the warcraft universe?Baggins (talk) 03:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I know about retconing earlier sources because of later sources, but this source is right up on currently. I am not sure what you mean by deleting the comments, but I am not bias against the RPG since I don't have many RPG books to begin with, but you have both the RPG and warcraft universe sources.  Rolandius Wc3Knight.gif (talk - contr) 03:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
"Note: Certain parts of the History section are outdated and may therefore conflict with other pieces of lore or stories. We plan on updating this section someday to bring it up to date.[10] "
Not saying that's one of the outdated parts, but it certainly does conflict with other pieces of lore or stories. In anycase the article already points out that there are slightly different versions of the story. In anycase all sources state that the race "evolved", so that's not an issue. The only place they really differs is if they were called night elves and Kaldorei before or after the "evolution".Baggins (talk) 04:11, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Well it might be outdated. I am not sure which version it is, before or after thier "evolution". I know after they found the Well they had a huge racial change, more than other races who then changed thier name — like earthen into dwarves or night elves into high elves.  Rolandius Wc3Knight.gif (talk - contr) 04:24, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
"More" is very "subjective". Turning from stone to flesh isa very huge change. A race adding in skin colors, and could range from very large to very small changes. Remember humans may come in different shades but we are all the same on the inside, so for us its very small difference. Getting smarter is fairly subjective too, they aren't the only races to gain improvements to their mind via unnatural sources. Look at goblins, and it was said to be a huge change for them.Baggins (talk) 04:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Well it isn't just skin color or getting smarter — that is why I said "more". Thier skin, eyes, vision, height, strength, intelligence, life span, ability to cast spells, and civility all changed.  Rolandius Wc3Knight.gif (talk - contr) 04:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Point of note, its said in Alliance Player's Guide, that skin, eyes, vision, strenght, intelligence, life span, and civilization, abilities, etc, changed when earthen became dwarves. Many similar changes may have occured with the goblins. We don't know how much the humans have changed. Basically this kind of debate is incredibly subjective.Baggins (talk) 04:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay that shows that they at least equally changed. We don't call the people of Ironforge Earthen or the humans of Stormwind Azotha anymore. Should we change all articles about humans and dwarves back to Earthen and Azotha?  Rolandius Wc3Knight.gif (talk - contr) 04:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Earthen were called dwarves in the past at the same time they were earthen.
Early tribal versions of humans were called azotha (they are called humans and azotha at the same time). Although with Azotha they could have been flesh and blood humans like they are now, just living in primitive cultures, we don't know how much ifferent the two were (we only vaguely know about their cultures).
It seems night elves and their earlier tribal versions might have been called night elves and Kaldorei at the same time as well.
As for articles you might notice we have articles for any tribe, organization, etc.Baggins (talk) 05:10, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Where does it say they called themselves Humans and Azotha at the same time?  Rolandius Wc3Knight.gif (talk - contr) 05:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Let's see most of the RPG discusses pre-sundering "humans". Azotha is actually the more obscure term, only referenced in two books, Lands of Conflict and a single reference in Shadows & Light, in reference to gold, "Azotha's gold". Infact even Lands of Conflcit uses Azotha and humans interchangeably in its description of the Pre-sundering humans.
"While the dwarves and humans were still getting onto their feet, the elves as we know them had already been running for quite some time...Humans are nearly as savage as their foes among the trolls, and both groups wander the land battling each other while trying to plant the seeds of their cultures...the world is completely untamed; it calls for explorers and traders who will journey into the untracked wilds. It also calls for warriors and spies to fight the war between the Azotha and the jungle trolls, or between the night elves and Queen Azshara’s demon guard.", LOC, pg 17.

etc, etc, etc, it also describes how they named the world Azeroth after the term Azotha.Baggins (talk) 05:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay if that is what they say. I always thought Azora was somehow tied to either Azeroth or Azotha.  Rolandius Wc3Knight.gif (talk - contr) 05:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Redirected pages

How do I see the history of a page that has been redirected?  Rolandius Wc3Knight.gif (talk - contr) 04:31, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


If one RPG book states (for example) that Abominations are chaotic evil and other that they are neutral evil, isnt it better to put to infobox like Neutral evil/Chaotic evil, than formerly chaotic evil, now neutral, because that sounds like they have changed someway. Or does rpg books state that they have changed? Kesmana (talk) 13:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Elemental lords

Take a look at the dialogue at the end of N [25-30] Enraged Spirits of Air. Does that count for Cyrukh? I am unsure.--SWM2448 21:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Sandwhich, that is certainly irrefutable evidence that he is described as an "elemental lord" (lower case), but certainly not evidence of him being part of the Elemental Lords (capitalized). Whoever capitalized it in the article previously was being misleading.Baggins (talk) 21:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Umm...--SWM2448 21:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Don't sweat it we all make mistakes. Sometimes its easy to capitalize things that shouldn't be capped.Baggins (talk) 22:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


Is the field school done? There are a few things we need to go over, can you be on IRC at around 4:30 GMT?--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry another week to go. I've just popped in from time to time when I've had free time to see what's been going on.Baggins (talk) 17:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

See you next week, then. And archive, for Elune's sake, you're nearly three times the warning length. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 18:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
  1. ^ Borgstrom, Rebecca; Eric Brennan, Genevieve Cogman, and Michael Goodwin. Manual of Monsters, 63. ISBN 978-1588-4607-07. 
  2. ^ Kiley, Ellen P.. Lands of Mystery, 135. ISBN 9781588467843. 
  3. ^ Johnson, Luke. Dark Factions, 135. ISBN 9781588464460. 
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