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To explain my edit quickly

As Jaina Proudmoore: Tides of War disrepancy section shows, it contradicts both Explorer and the game's events.

So we have three versions of Taurajo.

  • Game version (canon in my opinion): Due to incompetence and poor choice of allies such as the bloodthirsty dwarves of Bael'dun, many civilians, such as Yonada, were harmed during the raid and firebombing of the camp without even being able to flee, whilst babies had to be smuggled out like Kirge Sternhorn's son. There were survivors, most of whom went to Vendetta Point to fortify the Tauren's defense against the invading Alliance soldiers.
  • Tides of War (Full of Racist implications): No one apparently died and every tauren who fights back is evil apparently.
  • Exploring Kalimdor (Also full of racist implications): There were no survivors, but the Horde is wrong to be angry about this apparently.

Gann Stonespire (talk) 04:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

sorry to butt in, but an official source that has bad implications is still an official source. as a wiki, we need to present different sources without favoritism. if a newer source explicitly disagrees with an older one, we can't just decide the new source is non-canon--especially with how fond blizzard is of retcons and rewrites.
it is not our job to push the best possible version of events as the "real" version. we're not here to fix the story; we're here to document it. Eithris (talk) 05:22, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
I didn't say Tides of War and Exploring Azeroth were explicitly non canon, but they're both inconsistent with one another and with the events in World of Warcraft. Gann Stonespire (talk) 06:01, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Hey, so there's actually 4 different versions. And the contradictions have existed since day 1 from the game itself:

1) on the Horde side, there's like 3-4 dead civilian NPCs in the initial event (but then the corpses disappear IIRC). And there are 'survivors' (civilians) in other places (with one who says his mom died).

2) on the Alliance side, there's dialogue that says the Alliance allowed the civilians to leave because they didn't want them to die

3) the Jaina book aligns with option #2: the whole event was confusing so they put it in writing to clarify, and they had Baine outright state that no civilian was harmed.

4) now almost a decade later, you've got the Kalimdor book, which is written from the POV of Zekhan and has Zekhan say that he heard that all civilians died. (This contradicts both the game, since civilians did survive in-game, and the novel, since Baine says no civilian was harmed).

So while it should be mentioned that Zekhan heard this, the way this is worded at the moment sounds like the Jaina book is the outlier and everything else makes sense, when the truth is that it's a clusterfuck- that had been resolved.. until the Kalimdor book came out.

The Kalimdor book contradicts EVERY source, both the game's 2 versions plus the novel. So this is what needs to be pointed out, since this is a page about the Kalimdor book.

We need to write this note using the Kalimdor book as the subject, since it's a page about the Kalimdor book, while your version was written from the POV of the Jaina book. So I'm changing the wording back to what it was, because it was clear and less biased against a single source.

The fact is: all existing sources contradict another source. So we can't just prioritize one or discredit one in particular. The best we can do is explain the situation and how each version differs, which is what the previous version was doing, using neutral wording.

Edit: I did incorporate the note that civilians were killed on the Horde side, to clarify that this was indeed a thing. Not sure it's super relevant though since the subject here is the Kalimdor book claiming that there were "no survivors", which is untrue no matter what other source you look at, but still.

Is there anything that you disagree with in the current wording ? -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 15:05, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

What was the reason for removing the wording and reference from Tides of War (the last sentence)? Seems to me it's better to have that point clarified, with words taken from the novel. --HordeRace bloodelf male.jpg Mordecay (talk) 15:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
That was just to keep it succinct, it's already a long running sentence and "had refused to slaughter civilians" and "had ensured that the civilians of the camp would be allowed to leave unharmed" were redundant so they were just summarized into "allowed to leave in order to avoid casualties". We can keep the reference though and put the full-length quote in the reference rather than the body of the text. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Actually, MyMindWontQuiet, you are incorrect about the fourth source, Hawthorne made token efforts to spare civilians, but even he admits to accidentally letting some civilians die, remember he enlisted criminals from the stockades and the warcriminals of Bael'dun for the attack. Tides of War's version is completely inconsistent like much of that novel and it got an entire event for Baine due to the novel's incredible inconsistencies. Gann Stonespire (talk) 16:41, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
No, #4 is correct. Whil a few civilians did die, in the book Zekhan says that he thinks everyone died, that there were "no survivors". This is not true and contradicts every other source, both the game and the novel -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
You are incorrect, sources ingame never say no civilians died, only that some lived, some died and there was some token efforts to spare civilians by Hawthorne. Both Tides of War and Exploring Azeroth contradict the game is what I'm saying. The Alliance side quests ingame, do not contradict Horde side showing civilians were infact killed, only Tides of War did. Gann Stonespire (talk) 21:23, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Yonada, in addition to being an unarmed and low level herbalist, literally anounces her intentino to run, she definitely did not fight back and to say otherwise is weasel words. Gann Stonespire (talk) 21:28, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Once again, H [10-30] Honoring the Dead shows whilst Hawthorne may have intended those who wanted to flee, to flee with their lives, many were killed trying to flee the camp without enaging the Alliance soldiers in combat. Also keep in mind firebombs, which Hawthorne used, are notoriously destructive and hard to control, often causing casualties. Gann Stonespire (talk) 21:34, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
"You are incorrect, sources ingame never say no civilians died".
Exactly. Except I never said that. It's the Kalimdor book that says that.
That's what I'm trying to say: the Kalimdor book contradicts the game, and the novel.
As for Yonada, that's not true. She tells her children to run, and they do run and escape Taurajo (through the out that Hawthorne gave the civilians). But then she herself stays behind. Same for that other guy who also stays behind and explicitly says "I tried to fight off the soldiers with a skinning knife", or the other one who said "I will stay here with the wyverns and cover your escape".
Everyone who stayed behind died. Because they did not choose to escape, like the other civilians did.
As for the bombs, there's no evidence that they killed any civilians. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 21:48, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Tides of War says on civilians died, which contradicts the game, it also has Baine exile his friends for displaying their basic rights and defending the Horde per the events of the game.
She's: literally found inside the tent where she died in, only armed with a bunch of flowers, is a herbalist and is low level. Note the guy who did fight, Krulmoo Fullmoon, is said and shown to have fought, as well as being in a position where staying and fought would make sense. Its clear Yonada intended to run, don't deny it like that creepy Alliance posters who say their faction can do no wrong. Remember fire is indiscriminate, Bael'dun has a habit of murdering civilians and Stockades criminals were used as conscripts in the attack.
Yonada's corpse is literally found deaed inside a burnt tent, saying the firebombs kiled no is quiete frankly, willfull ignorance.
Please stop saying an unarmed herbalist who wanted to run was a threat to armed footmen and burly dwarves on gryphons, its ridiculously biased.

Gann Stonespire (talk) 21:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

No. Yonada told her partner (?) to "get the children" and "run". She herself visibly stayed behind. And her partner and children ran away. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 22:01, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure what is even being argued here though.
Did civilians die? Yes, some died.
Did Hawthorne leave them an out? Yes, some escaped.
Did EVERYONE die? No, some survived.
That's it.
The only thing that contradicts all of the above is the Kalimdor book with Zekhan saying he heard that there were no survivors. That's all the page is stating. This is something that you have yourself recognized.
So if all of the above is true, what are we arguing about here? -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 22:01, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
No, Yonada cowered in fear with the literal /cower emote' after saying that as shown here. Honestly this sadly isn't the first time I've had to talk with someone insisting a unarmed cowering herbalist deserved to die by firebombs and attacking soldiers in her home. Try to think of this outside of an "the Alliance can do wrong" perspective and realize, Yonada wanted to flee and was no fighter.
She died in her home was it was burnt, we see her cowering, its disgusting how you're saying she was a military target. But I've seen people defend Twinbraid's disgusting actions here, so maybe I shouldn't be surprsied.
He left an opening, some managed to escape, but others who wanted to escape and didn't try to fight like Krulmoo Fullmoon did, were killed without getting to leave the camp as Yonada shows. And even some of the civilians who escaped, found their path filled with bristleback and ended up dying. So whilst there were some civilian casualties, Hawthorne's attacks ended up killing alot of civilians due to his incompetence.
Yonada explicitly shows it was not only people who stayed and fought that died, she wanted to escape and was a civilian who was clearly incapable of combat. You're literally saying her cowering means she stayed and fought.
You said the firebombs didn't kill anyone which is ridiculous.
And my problem isn't that, its your claim that the only civilians who died, were those who stayed behind and fought, when the game shows otherwise. Gann Stonespire (talk) 22:08, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Why are you putting words in my mouth though? I never said anything like that about Yonada, I did not say she deserved to die, and I did not say she was a military target. That's you.
All I said is what happened: she told her partner or someone to get the children and leave (which they did) and she herself stayed behind. Like you can see in the video.
Now, why did she stay behind? What did she do after she stayed behind? No clue. That's up to the reader's interpretation. That's not up to me, or you, or Wowpedia. We can't just make stuff up.
I also did not say "the firebombs didn't kill anyone", I just said there's no evidence that they did. It doesn't mean that they didn't, it just means "we don't know". Again, we can't make stuff up.
The fact is that all the civilians who were shown to escape, did escape. The only ones who died, are the ones who stayed behind, because they did not choose to escape.
In any case I fail to see why this discussion is relevant. What does this have to do with anything, anyway? What page do you want to change? What are you arguing for?-- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 22:14, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
You continually insist that she was a brave warrior, stayed and fought the Alliance soldiers when the game directly shows otherwise. She was an unarmed low level (even for the area) herbalist who does the cower emote and says "run, RUN", showing her own intention to run. This shows people who didn't try to fight back were killed.
No she failed to esape because she panicked, her words and her doing the cower emote shows she had no intention to stay and fight. I've had this argument with some of the most anti Horde posters on MMO-Champion, do you really wanna be like those losers?
She didn't escape in time and panicked in the building that was currently being firebombed, sometimes when people are frightened, they don't always do the smart thing and run, this happens in real life as well. The game shows she was a non combatant and was frozen in fear. Its biased to say she probably stayed and fight. The only people who stayed and fought were Krulmoo Fullmoon and Omusa Thunderhorn whom both had some semi combat experience and stayed calm.
No Yonada wanted to escape, she just failed to as the video showed. For gosh sakes, its honestly disgusting that you're saying a cowering civilian wanted to stay and fight, thus was ok to kill. I hope you're not one of those "no one in the Alliance can do no wrong ever" types. Even Hawthorne admits he unintentionally got civilians killed in the attack.
She's found inside the burnt building, as are several other corpses. You're really saying fire doesn't kill anyone?
You keep insisting on putting that in the Ruins of Taurajo page that the civilians who died, probably intentionally stayed, which is disproven by Yonada. Gann Stonespire (talk) 22:32, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

(un-indent) "I didn't say Tides of War [was] explicitly non canon,"

"There is no official word that Tides of War's version is canon"

come on, gann. we are not gonna "schrodinger's canon" this. you have decided that tides of war is wrong, and many of your edits use language that calls tides of war's validity into question. again, it is an official source. it does not need an external statement saying it's canon in order for us to consider it valid.

if you can't come at editing without bias toward or against certain sources, then you need to stop and step away. what you're doing is considered disruptive editing and is not helpful. Eithris (talk) 21:42, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

If anything, claims by users like you that people like unarmed Yonada who announced their attempt to run, tried to "fight back" is incredibly biased.
We have no word on whats canon, but we do know Tides of War and Exploring Azeroth contradict both eachother and the events of the game. Gann Stonespire (talk) 21:45, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
yonada has nothing to do with what i said. i'm saying that we do not need word on what's canon. we do not work on a "non-canon until stated otherwise" basis and we never have. we present each version in an impartial way, without judgment. it is not our place to decide which version really happened. Eithris (talk) 22:17, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
And noting we have three contradicting sources on the events of Camp Taurajo, is not sayin whats canon and whats not. I personally dislike Tides of War and thinks its a racist novel, but I haven't put there anyone in my edits, only that is inconsitent with ingame quests, which it very much is. Oh and another thing, there was no way, Baine could have known General Hawthorne's personal thoughts, as most of his attempts at mercy ended up failing either due to his own decisions or his choice of troops. The only way Baine could have known Hawthorne's thought is he had an Alliance alt on the side and quested with Hawthorne, again its an inconsistency in a novel riddled with them. Gann Stonespire (talk) 22:32, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
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